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I know what I'm writing will thread into something people will get angry over, but the last few years have been quite terrible for kid's show. You see, the best Transformers series or really the only type of series were kid's show. However, the greats of western animation and the great of the Transformers series were always written to be 'A Kid's show But More', creating these series which are both a fun adventure romp (which sell toys) for the kids while also being great fun for adult fans.

The current problem which has slowly plagued TV cartoons in recent years, as kids watch less and less animation, is that people increasingly do kid's show...with the intent of pleasing their fanbse off tumblr, twitter or elsewhere. Shipping war and other cancerous, fanservice nonsense and other drama slowly consume the writer. They become less focused on delivering a good product enjoyable by a variety of audience but rather try to please the cancerous shippers and twitterati mobs. Now to some extent a creator getting in touch with a fanbase can be a good thing, as it was with Beast Wars which improved the show and tied it better into G1 continuity. As with all things in writing, everything is a double edge sword.

I just think in recent years we've seen a downward trend of writers and producers prioritizing many other aspects over actually making an enjoyable show.

And as for the art style of western animation, let's just face it. The "Captain Planet look" for mainstream TV animation died at the end of the 90s. Both the rise of CGI in the mid-to-late 90s and the anime English dub boom of the early 2000s killed it. Those are what led to the trend of mainstream CGI television from the early 2000s to the present and the "faux anime look" of the mid-to-late 2000s.

Following that period, three more trends in western animation arose. CGI shows became cel-shaded, which continues to this day. And the "faux anime look" was succeeded by both the "flash animation look" and the "simplified look" (which one might also consider to be the "Seth McFarlane cartoons look"). These three came into prominence during the 2010s and are where we are currently at the dawn of the 2020s. Though, the "flash animation look" has quieted down a bit, and had arguably become absorbed into the "simplified look" category.

Sure, some outliers still linger, like Young Justice, but which is more inspired by the "Bruce Timm look" of the 90s/2000s DCAU cartoons, which always stood out on their own by not conforming to any of the mainstream art styles of their time (as the "Bruce Timm look" was itself originally inspired by the "Max Fleischer look" of the 1941-1943 Superman serials). So, that look was never as widespread as the above art styles of western TV animation.

In other words, there is no sense hoping for any kind of return to the "Captain Planet look" of yester-decades for mainstream western animation since that art style is long gone and buried. Everything nowadays looks "cel-shaded" in 3D animation and "simplified" in 2D animation because those are the current trends that are mainstream right now, just as the "Captain Planet look" was the mainstream art style of the 1980s, following the "Jonny Quest look" of the 1960s-1970s.

Sabrblade wrote:And as for the art style of western animation, let's just face it. The "Captain Planet look" for mainstream TV animation died at the end of the 90s. Both the rise of CGI in the mid-to-late 90s and the anime English dub boom of the early 2000s killed it. Those are what led to the trend of mainstream CGI television from the early 2000s to the present and the "faux anime look" of the mid-to-late 2000s.

Following that period, three more trends in western animation arose. CGI shows became cel-shaded, which continues to this day. And the "faux anime look" was succeeded by both the "flash animation look" and the "simplified look" (which one might also consider to be the "Seth McFarlane cartoons look"). These three came into prominence during the 2010s and are where we are currently at the dawn of the 2020s. Though, the "flash animation look" has quieted down a bit, and had arguably become absorbed into the "simplified look" category.

Sure, some outliers still linger, like Young Justice, but which is more inspired by the "Bruce Timm look" of the 90s/2000s DCAU cartoons, which always stood out on their own by not conforming to any of the mainstream art styles of their time (as the "Bruce Timm look" was itself originally inspired by the "Max Fleischer look" of the 1941-1943 Superman serials). So, that look was never as widespread as the above art styles of western TV animation.

In other words, there is no sense hoping for any kind of return to the "Captain Planet look" of yester-decades for mainstream western animation since that art style is long gone and buried. Everything nowadays looks "cel-shaded" in 3D animation and "simplified" in 2D animation because those are the current trends that are mainstream right now, just as the "Captain Planet look" was the mainstream art style of the 1980s, following the "Jonny Quest look" of the 1960s-1970s.

Can't argue with any of that.

Don't forget the disgusting influence of the often-memed 'cal arts' style.

This ain't a style conductive to the type of action and adventure shows Transformers belong to.

^ I was referring to that style as the current "simplified look", which also includes the likes of Teen Titans Go!, Adventure Time, Family Guy, Bob's Burgers, etc.

You call it simple. I call it cancer but that's just my opinion.

The thing is, Transformers is a bit of an anomaly in the 2010 and 2020. It's (well, any singular incarnation) an action-adventure toy merchandising series aimed at young boys in an era where these shows aren't doing so well because kids don't watch TV or buy toys anymore. Its also a mecha franchise, a genre which has been not only always out of the mainstream in the west beyond a few series using giant robots and its also a genre which hasn't been doing too hot in Japan these past decades either beyond the unstoppable juggernaut that is Gundam. This make me think the franchise has slowly more and more turned on to itself and the aging fanbase to keep relevant through '80 nostalgia. Let's face it: kids don't watch cartoon or buy toys these days. Some do, but not as much as during the past eras.

Technically, traditional animation is over. No one uses paints and brush to make a reverse painting on a cell anymore.
Both 3d and 2d animation is done using computer software and both can be as lazy with software driven animation.

Sabrblade wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I don't see the problem with another animated cartoon? Do Transformers series need to be CG now? Surely animation is cheaper and you can get longer shows out of it??

Where is this coming from? No one said anything about either a new show or CGI being bad things in and of themselves.

That was just a general musing. I've been out of the loop of Transformers shows for some time, but I'm pretty sure the last 2D animation was Animated itself, 13 years ago?

Considering there are still well animated series made in Japan the issue isn't completely related to computers alone but rather lazyness or even complacency. Older shows tried to push their budget as best they could. Modern show just go 'ah well, who care?'.

Skritz wrote:Older shows tried to push their budget as best they could.

Did Hanna-Barbera do that? They cut corners all the time and were the undisputed kings of animation for three decades in the 50s-70s.

Skritz wrote:Considering there are still well animated series made in Japan the issue isn't completely related to computers alone but rather lazyness or even complacency. Older shows tried to push their budget as best they could. Modern show just go 'ah well, who care?'.

Those well animated shows still rely heavily on computers (and also the horrible working conditions of the animators...) plus any transformers series from Japan would look like the other Takara toylines that recieved anime, like Drive Head or the train one. Plus how well received was Transformers Go! I know it was a web based series but I never see it mentioned... Which is a shame as I loved the way redecos of Predaking and the Terrorcons it gave us.

ZeroWolf wrote:Plus how well received was Transformers Go! I know it was a web based series but I never see it mentioned... Which is a shame as I loved the way redecos of Predaking and the Terrorcons it gave us.

It was a direct-to-DVD series. I liked it (as a guilty pleasure), but most people derided it for its short 12-minute episode length, its complete lack of any and all facial expression animation for every one of the bots, and its very basic storytelling of simple MacGuffin hunts that were dominated by fight scenes that relied heavily on stock footage transformation/combination/attack sequences.

Sabrblade wrote:

Skritz wrote:Older shows tried to push their budget as best they could.

Did Hanna-Barbera do that?

They did not. In fact, they gave yogi bear a tie so that they could phone in the rest of his body not being animated.

And then there's this:

The "Captain Planet look." I haven't heard it called that, but I do miss it.

Sabrblade wrote:Sure, some outliers still linger, like Young Justice, but which is more inspired by the "Bruce Timm look" of the 90s/2000s DCAU cartoons, which always stood out on their own by not conforming to any of the mainstream art styles of their time (as the "Bruce Timm look" was itself originally inspired by the "Max Fleischer look" of the 1941-1943 Superman serials). So, that look was never as widespread as the above art styles of western TV animation.

In other words, there is no sense hoping for any kind of return to the "Captain Planet look" of yester-decades for mainstream western animation since that art style is long gone and buried. Everything nowadays looks "cel-shaded" in 3D animation and "simplified" in 2D animation because those are the current trends that are mainstream right now, just as the "Captain Planet look" was the mainstream art style of the 1980s, following the "Jonny Quest look" of the 1960s-1970s.

I agree with most of your post, I just quoted the last part because-I don't think Young Justice should be considered an outlier, but as something to aspire to. It does look amazing for all the reasons mentioned, and proves it can still be done.

I mean I understand why technology changes, even in the animation industry. However I'll use The Simpsons as an example. Watching a season 1 episode, then a season 10 episode, then season 30 can be a bit jarring. However... despite all this, the look is *generally* the same all these years later. Again, it may be an outlier as well however...

I don't see why, it would be impossible for Hasbro to ask Toei to create something new replicating the Look of Transformers:The Movie. I mean the budget for the average DC straight to home media films, which come out 3 times per year, I don't imagine would be too much different than asking Toei to produce a new 70-80 minute film that mimics as close to possible the look of the 86 film, but of course be an all new story.

I mean Sunrise made Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam: A New Translation, 3 films using modern animation techniques that looked superior, but still obviously in the same style of the original Zeta Gundam made 30 years prior.

I understand the idea of moving forward. Beast Wars looked great for the times, Prime was absolutely amazing...but then you have shows like RiD15 and Cyberverse that, I'm sorry... I know they are for kids, but they are so aesthetically displeasing, I have no desire to watch them.

It just frustrates me we people say something cannot be done when its never been tried. Sure we get things like Prime Wars which was hot garbage. I really hope this Netflix series is good.... But until I see specifically in my minds eye, what would be the definitive next chapter in the original Transformers animated series, I'm not going to stop asking, and nobody else can say "it's already been tried" because it hasn't.

william-james88 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Skritz wrote:Older shows tried to push their budget as best they could.

Did Hanna-Barbera do that?

They did not. In fact, they gave yogi bear a tie so that they could phone in the rest of his body not being animated.

And then there's this:

Yeah sad to say, I think a lot of people only remember the golden age of Warner and MGM (30's-50's), and forget about Hanna Barbara's method in the 60's and 70's.

I mean even Filmation, series, which I think look great. (Fat Albert, Flash Gordon, Zorro, Tarzan, the Lone Ranger, Blackstar, MOTU, She-Ra etc...) all cut corners with Rotoscoping and stock sequences. Speaking of which, I remember Bravestar as a TV series, but there was a Movie intended as a pilot, I had never seen until it came out on DVD, ...that movie is way better than it has any right to be!

o.supreme wrote:I don't see why, it would be impossible for Hasbro to ask Toei to create something new replicating the Look of Transformers:The Movie. I mean the budget for the average DC straight to home media films, which come out 3 times per year, I don't imagine would be too much different than asking Toei to produce a new 70-80 minute film that mimics as close to possible the look of the 86 film, but of course be an all new story.

Quoting this part because it seems to be the crux of the matter, to which the short answer, based both on the history the Transformers brand and the modern history of mainstream Western animation, seems to be "Because they just don't want to."

Sabrblade wrote:Quoting this part because it seems to be the crux of the matter, to which the short answer, based both on the history the Transformers brand and the modern history of mainstream Western animation, seems to be "Because they just don't want to."

Which is sad. I wonder if you asked the powers that be in charge of Animation for Hasbro toy Brands, if they really wanted to produce something amazing, excellent, that would blow the imaginations of both kids and adults, and will be talked about for generations to come, if they would feel the same...

Sabrblade wrote:

o.supreme wrote:I don't see why, it would be impossible for Hasbro to ask Toei to create something new replicating the Look of Transformers:The Movie. I mean the budget for the average DC straight to home media films, which come out 3 times per year, I don't imagine would be too much different than asking Toei to produce a new 70-80 minute film that mimics as close to possible the look of the 86 film, but of course be an all new story.

Quoting this part because it seems to be the crux of the matter, to which the short answer, based both on the history the Transformers brand and the modern history of mainstream Western animation, seems to be "Because they just don't want to."

I'm quite in line with that thinking. Also I don't think that using the Zeta Gundam films is a good example as there was a percise reason as to why they looked the way they did... To sync up with the old animation they reused from the 86 series. That and a lot of fans were outspoken at the time about the changes 'Happier' Tomino made to the ending. I felt it lost a lot of impact in changing Kamile's hollow victory.

But that's exactly my point, to have a new TF movie that would sync up with the look of the 1986 TF: Movie.

But in the a new translation case the animation still didn't sync up that well, plus there is no reason to do that, I mean look at the fandoms reaction to 86 stuff in studio series, that will be a minor argument if hasbro tried to revive G1 as per your wish. Lament all you wish but tf needs to keep moving forward (something which it's doing by embracing new forms of animation) not just standing still in one part of its life. I can tolerate keeping a G1 style if something new was done with it (ala IDW). But a full on revival? I'd reject that.

o.supreme wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Quoting this part because it seems to be the crux of the matter, to which the short answer, based both on the history the Transformers brand and the modern history of mainstream Western animation, seems to be "Because they just don't want to."

Which is sad. I wonder if you asked the powers that be in charge of Animation for Hasbro toy Brands, if they really wanted to produce something amazing, excellent, that would blow the imaginations of both kids and adults, and will be talked about for generations to come, if they would feel the same...

Many would say that they already have. Its name is Cyberverse Season 3.

So ... any update on when this is going to air?

None so far but on thinking about it, they may have been wanting to drop it when SDCC came round, would have been great for promotion

ZeroWolf wrote:None so far but on thinking about it, they may have been wanting to drop it when SDCC came round, would have been great for promotion

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