The Energon Pub

AncientSpark wrote:Transformers has always been an escape from the real world and a great one at that. There is no need to get political. Even with the aid of the military in the first film, it still was not a political film in any respect. Transformers never got into issues on religeon except for false ones when Astrotrain pretended to be a god to rule these naive people on some planet and it wasn't about faith, it was about being intelligent and not trusting people who want to rule over you and brainwash you. Outside of that one episode there never was a need to get political or religeous and TransFormers should STAY that way.

That's because it's a kids show. You don't go into that stuff on kids shows.

I'd actually like to see the political and social dealing with the Transformers. Mostly as a sub-plot (Blowing up Decepticons should be the main focus), but I would like to see distrust or fear in the Autobots.

Shadowman wrote:

AncientSpark wrote:Transformers has always been an escape from the real world and a great one at that. There is no need to get political. Even with the aid of the military in the first film, it still was not a political film in any respect. Transformers never got into issues on religeon except for false ones when Astrotrain pretended to be a god to rule these naive people on some planet and it wasn't about faith, it was about being intelligent and not trusting people who want to rule over you and brainwash you. Outside of that one episode there never was a need to get political or religeous and TransFormers should STAY that way.

That's because it's a kids show. You don't go into that stuff on kids shows.

I'd actually like to see the political and social dealing with the Transformers. Mostly as a sub-plot (Blowing up Decepticons should be the main focus), but I would like to see distrust or fear in the Autobots.

That's all well and good at first glance, but remember what DS9 and Voyager did to the Star Trek franchise that was supposed to be OPTIMistic about the future? Those last series including the cancelled Enterprise were bleak and mistrusting and look how it made a great escape become an all-too-familiar regurjitation of political angst!

Optimus Prime is an OPTIMIST to all ends, and he will try to give you the benefit of the doubt and try to believe you first before mistrusting you or holding a grudge. Even at times when Megatron has come to the Autobot base to hold a non-violent conversation, Prime did NOT suddenly engage him in battle. I only remember one time when the Autobots fired haplessly on the Decepticons before being provoked and that was indeed a mistake and indeed I am glad to only recall that once. For the 99 percentile, the Autobots actually showed mistrust and angst, yet were driven BY PRIME to keep their optimistic appraisal of all situations and to try to believe the best in all beings. Do you not remember Huffer the pessimist? Or Gears for that matter? There in fact WAS a lot of what you wanted already, but the LEADER washed it out with his most excellent Role-Model material and that is what TransFormers is all about. It teaches us as children to try to have love for basic life and respect for others even when they are misguided. Optimus Prime ALWAYS heard both sides to an argument before making a decision and always explored every avenue of possibility before making a destructive command or dooming the humans to get Megatron and his minions out of the way at a dangerous cautic price.

We NEED that in Prime, and since he speaks for all Autobots, even as some of them ARE dark in nature like Ironhide at TIMES, they all know that Optimus knows BEST.

AncientSpark wrote:What do you know about freemasonry?

A great deal.

AncientSpark wrote:Ever heard of Hiram Mabiff?

No. Have you heard of Mircea Eliade? Or Francis Yates? Gérard Encausse? René Guénon? Salama al-Radi? Julius Evola? Ananda Coomaraswamy? Karl Marx? Friedrick Nietsczhe? Oswald Spengler? Emile Durkheim? Marcel Mauss? Max Weber? Sigmund Freud? Joseph Campbell? Mary Douglas? Mahatma Gandhi? Peter Kropotkin? Randall Collins? Fritjof Capra? Any of these ring a bell? They ride in my sleeve dude.

AncientSpark wrote:Do you know that the G does not stand for God and that it in fact stands for geometry and they worship a deity they call "the great architect of the universe"

Yes. The freemasons were one of the first groups to use applied trigonometry in the construction of cathedrals; see Ken Follet's "Pillars of the Earth." Incidentally, they acquired many of those methods from the Persians, Hindus, and Muslims.

Did you know that alchemy was never really about gold, but in fact trying to apply the theology of transubstantiation (the body and blood of christ during communion) in the material plane, an idea made popular by freemasons after they lambasted alchemists and stole their ideas?

AncientSpark wrote:and do you know that at a specific degree they are sworn to never speak the name of Jesus or God again?

Not in all sects. You are not talking about freemasonry as a major intellectual movement, but a place to use secret handshakes and eat ribs. What's your point?

AncientSpark wrote:Do you realize that freemasonry has absolutly NOTHING to do with Christians and was NEVER started by them, leet or not.

That is incredibly, incredibly wrong. In so many ways. Read "The Rosicrucian Enlightenment" by Francis Yates to start.

AncientSpark wrote:Please do not lump Christians into that group, thanks.

Which Christians? The gnostic sects? The early Roman Catholics? The Catholicism of early medieval Europe? Or the catholicism of the Renaissance? Unless you meant the Protestants, who formed an entirely different understanding of the gospels and the Passion, notably the Lutherans, Methodists, Puritans, Presbyterians, and Evangelical Baptists. Unitarians? The Separatist Anglican Church? Wait I'm sorry, you must have meant Jehovah's Witnesses! Or did you mean the Mormons? The Twelve Tribes of Israel? Perhaps the Amish, or the Mennonites? I know, PENTACOSTALS! Or did you just mean generic, fag-hating snake handlers from Alabama?

AncientSpark wrote:and next time do your slaggin' homework before opening your uneducated mouth.

My friend, I hold a PhD in sociology, with an emphasis on comparative religion and philosophy. I teach courses on the sociology of religion. In the course of my graduate work, I have worked alongside ministers and pastors also earning the doctoral degrees. I hate to throw my cojones on the table, but I am one of the most qualified people in the world to comment on the genealogy of Christianity and the Masonic Movement.

I suggest you put down the snakes and get some book learnin'

AND just in case you don't think I'm a fun guy, check this out. One of the members of the original Egyptian pantheon was Isis, who was celebrated as a female deity who brought agricultural fertility. Isis became associated with good harvests, healthy offspring, and was generally thought of as a caring, protective feminine goddess. It is no surprise that an Isis cult formed around her as such a figure. In the Egyptian religion, she was represented thus:



Now, just because Egypt went out of style, that's not to say Isis did. Heck no! In fact the Romans still venerated her, and they adjusted the imagery as such:



A few words on the imagery. The bucket at her foot symbolizes her ability to bring water to the fields when it was needed. The bucket symbolized her knowledge of the soil. The lamp she carries is a symbol of illumination in general, helping with fears but also bringing knowledge. Her head dressing is also a reference to her holy illumination.

Now, when Catholicism took hold in Rome, the Roman people were not going to give up on Isis. So one of the first elements of Christian incorporation took place, wherein the theology of catholicism incorporated a loose set of folk beliefs. All the folk veneration and associations with Isis were transplanted onto:



Holy Mary, Mother of God. Yes, it's true.

Now, when the Freemasons were on the rise, they became interested again in the connection between Mary and Isis. They were acutely aware of the symbolism, and they re-populated the Isis cult amongst themselves. This carried on for many years, and when a Freemason architect,Frederic Bartholdi, was consulted by a burgeoning nation, whose founding members were nearly all members of the Freemason order, he designed their icon, based on the Roman Isis, to look like this:



Same torch, same illuminating headdress, representing knowledge, and a care for the "poor, huddled masses," just as Isis and Mary have done for all these years.

There is no one correct religion guys, just a continuous refinement of the sacred and holy.

And Optimus Prime is based on the King Arthur legend, BTW. For another day...

Somehow you're a Ph.D in Sociology and claim to know so much of Freemasonry and never heard of Hiram Mabiff?

He's the FOUNDER of Freemasonry. He is the "Widow's Son" in their secret cry for help "Who will help the widow's Son?"... He was killed by three of his understudies while building a temple and they hated him for not sharinig with them a secret word that was of high status.

Hiram Mabiff is unknown to you and you also called Mormons Christians... Mormons are closer to Freemasons and Scientologists combined.

I agreee with you that there is no one right religoen. I simply do not get that you have a Ph.D. and do NOT know who founded the Freemason movement.

you can wiki him ya know.

enjoy your really well-earned Ph.D.

Okay its Hiram Abiff, sorry.. But you should have picked up on that and corrected me if you'd recognized that at ALL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiram_Abiff

Enjoy the lesson plan bud.

sigh. This is a fun forum. Let's just leave it that way.

sigh. This is a fun forum. Let's just leave it that way.

AncientSpark wrote:Freemasonry, in general, was an attempt by leet Christians in the middle ages and Renaissance to incorporate magical energy and symbolism under the Christian system. Sort of a "my magic is better than your magic" paradigm.

What do you know about freemasonry? Ever heard of Hiram Mabiff? Do you know that the G does not stand for God and that it in fact stands for geometry and they worship a deity they call "the great architect of the universe" and do you know that at a specific degree they are sworn to never speak the name of Jesus or God again?

Do you realize that freemasonry has absolutly NOTHING to do with Christians and was NEVER started by them, leet or not.

Please do not lump Christians into that group, thanks.
and next time do your slaggin' homework before opening your uneducated mouth.

Uhhhh......

AncientSpark wrote:enjoy your really well-earned Ph.D.

Please tell me that isn't sarcasm. I'm thinking it is, though.


And I thought I was a jerk on here...

Okay, this is my final word on all this and I'm dropping it as of now. I just dont want TransFormers to become some ground for social commentary or a support-system for crazy fraternaties. Let the Freemasons have National Treasure, they don't need to bother us Transformers fans too just because we have John Voight now. If he is the link to the idea of incorporating Freemasonry into the plot for 2, then lets replace the Sec Def for 2 as well, but I don't think he really has anything to do with it. I just dont want TransFormers to turn INTO National Treasure. I don't even want TF to have it as a negative point EITHER... just LEAVE religeon and fraternaties OUT of the mix and keep with fighting evil. Terrorists are ok to fight, 'cause we can all get behind that.

AncientSpark wrote:That's all well and good at first glance, but remember what DS9 and Voyager did to the Star Trek franchise that was supposed to be OPTIMistic about the future? Those last series including the cancelled Enterprise were bleak and mistrusting and look how it made a great escape become an all-too-familiar regurjitation of political angst!

Optimus Prime is an OPTIMIST to all ends, and he will try to give you the benefit of the doubt and try to believe you first before mistrusting you or holding a grudge. Even at times when Megatron has come to the Autobot base to hold a non-violent conversation, Prime did NOT suddenly engage him in battle. I only remember one time when the Autobots fired haplessly on the Decepticons before being provoked and that was indeed a mistake and indeed I am glad to only recall that once. For the 99 percentile, the Autobots actually showed mistrust and angst, yet were driven BY PRIME to keep their optimistic appraisal of all situations and to try to believe the best in all beings. Do you not remember Huffer the pessimist? Or Gears for that matter? There in fact WAS a lot of what you wanted already, but the LEADER washed it out with his most excellent Role-Model material and that is what TransFormers is all about. It teaches us as children to try to have love for basic life and respect for others even when they are misguided. Optimus Prime ALWAYS heard both sides to an argument before making a decision and always explored every avenue of possibility before making a destructive command or dooming the humans to get Megatron and his minions out of the way at a dangerous cautic price.

We NEED that in Prime, and since he speaks for all Autobots, even as some of them ARE dark in nature like Ironhide at TIMES, they all know that Optimus knows BEST.

Not sure if you know this, but there's big difference between what you want, and what actually is. The world is a sad, dark, creepy place that wants to hurt you. And movies are beginning to reflect on this.

Though what I find interesting is your defense of religion and repeated use of all caps. It reminds me of someone that used to be on here. I'm sure Dark Zarak knows who I'm talking about.

Abilor wrote:sigh. This is a fun forum. Let's just leave it that way.

I'm not sure how long you've been posting in the Movie forum, but this forum wa only ever a headache, that a lot of people (Myself included) can't help but avoid.

And just for the record, seeing freemasonry in TF2 is the LAST thing I would ever want in the world.

All my discussion was just meant to be light-hearted and factual, a brief aside from the "serious" business of the movie.

Ancientspark, on that we absolutely agree: no freemasons, jesuits, apostles, fratboys, or rosicrusians in the movie. Just transformers please...

Shadowman wrote:

Abilor wrote:sigh. This is a fun forum. Let's just leave it that way.

I'm not sure how long you've been posting in the Movie forum, but this forum wa only ever a headache, that a lot of people (Myself included) can't help but avoid.

I meant seibertron in general is a place I come for NOT having to spank wayward students or get into religious debates. The most serious debate I want to have here is whether or not Megatron should have an alt gun mode in TF2 (I think he should... oooo!!! Oh no he didn't!)

Shadowman wrote:Though what I find interesting is your defense of religion and repeated use of all caps. It reminds me of someone that used to be on here. I'm sure Dark Zarak knows who I'm talking about.

I don't think it's Morph because he was smart enough not to contradict himself in the same post.

I am not sure of whom you are likening me to, but as for my caps situation it comes from a pre-internet era and I am trying hard to quell my urge to emphasize with caps as I do in the literal world. So I apologize on that point.

I simply want to express that movies of all kinds should be escapes and the best kind are true escapes from reality and its bitter edge, and dark racy tempo. I believe that TransFormers has been a very fantastic excursion out of reality and into an exraordinary world where nothing is as it seems. Keep it to basics, Michael Bay, is all I'm saying. Please don't feel ya have to get preachy any time.

AncientSpark wrote:I am not sure of whom you are likening me to, but as for my caps situation it comes from a pre-internet era and I am trying hard to quell my urge to emphasize with caps as I do in the literal world. So I apologize on that point.

I simply want to express that movies of all kinds should be escapes and the best kind are true escapes from reality and its bitter edge, and dark racy tempo. I believe that TransFormers has been a very fantastic excursion out of reality and into an exraordinary world where nothing is as it seems. Keep it to basics, Michael Bay, is all I'm saying. Please don't feel ya have to get preachy any time.

Well, I've hinted at it twice, but I guess I have to tell you outright. You contradicted yourself on the point about Christians starting the Freemasons. Please explain yourself.


Though I do agree with your second paragraph. But please...

He didn't contradict himself, he misquoted me. I'm the one saying that Freemasons are Christians, and he's not. Though if Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington weren't Christian Freemasons, then I'm a four-foot tall talking pixie who sells blow to smurfs.

AncientSpark wrote:I simply want to express that movies of all kinds should be escapes and the best kind are true escapes from reality and its bitter edge, and dark racy tempo.

Where do you live? And Schindler's List, for example, was not an escape but an excellent movie, with a dark racy tempo...

Dark Zarak wrote:

AncientSpark wrote:I am not sure of whom you are likening me to, but as for my caps situation it comes from a pre-internet era and I am trying hard to quell my urge to emphasize with caps as I do in the literal world. So I apologize on that point.

I simply want to express that movies of all kinds should be escapes and the best kind are true escapes from reality and its bitter edge, and dark racy tempo. I believe that TransFormers has been a very fantastic excursion out of reality and into an exraordinary world where nothing is as it seems. Keep it to basics, Michael Bay, is all I'm saying. Please don't feel ya have to get preachy any time.

Well, I've hinted at it twice, but I guess I have to tell you outright. You contradicted yourself on the point about Christians starting the Freemasons. Please explain yourself.


Though I do agree with your second paragraph. But please...

Well with respect to you, I never changed my belief or stated otherwise. Somebody else has said they were started be leet Christians and something about my magic is better then yours... but that was not me. I only stated that Freemasonry has nothing to do with Christianity and worships the Universal Architect who is a Luciferian god, not the Christian god and that the G in the masonic symbol is Geometry, not God.

AncientSpark wrote:Okay, this is my final word on all this and I'm dropping it as of now. I just dont want TransFormers to become some ground for social commentary or a support-system for crazy fraternaties. Let the Freemasons have National Treasure, they don't need to bother us Transformers fans too just because we have John Voight now. If he is the link to the idea of incorporating Freemasonry into the plot for 2, then lets replace the Sec Def for 2 as well, but I don't think he really has anything to do with it. I just dont want TransFormers to turn INTO National Treasure. I don't even want TF to have it as a negative point EITHER... just LEAVE religeon and fraternaties OUT of the mix and keep with fighting evil. Terrorists are ok to fight, 'cause we can all get behind that.

Who says that just because the Freemasons and are going to be in this movie that it is going to be like National Treasure? The Freemasons in National Treasure were depicted as the good guys for the most part. Who says that they aren't evil in this movie with a completely different agenda then they had in National Treasure?

AncientSpark wrote:Well with respect to you, I never changed my belief or stated otherwise. Somebody else has said they were started be leet Christians and something about my magic is better then yours... but that was not me. I only stated that Freemasonry has nothing to do with Christianity and worships the Universal Architect who is a Luciferian god, not the Christian god and that the G in the masonic symbol is Geometry, not God.

Oh I get it.

Well, it wasn't in a quote box, it was just part of your normal text, so I assumed reasonably that it was just part of your post.

thank you. I had not realized I omitted a tag someplace and the quoted text became mine but I see that now and understand what you meant now. Sorry things got mixed up man.

I think that Jefferson, Washington and Franklin were high-level Freemasons and not fresh blood. I do understand that for some time a freemason may feel that they are too a Christian, but there is a degree that dissolves that myth right out of the water and pretty much states that you can't even speak of Jesus after that point and that the Jehova "God" is not, and the Luciferian god is the Universal Architect. So maybe newbie masons can still claim their Christian title, but not for too long and I doubt our forefathers were new in that game... and nothing said they were Christians. A great deal of Freemasons in the upper levels WILL in fact CLAIM to be God-fearing Christians to a PUBLIC audience but that is their guise or alt-mode if you will. (lol).

Dark Zarak wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Though what I find interesting is your defense of religion and repeated use of all caps. It reminds me of someone that used to be on here. I'm sure Dark Zarak knows who I'm talking about.

I don't think it's Morph because he was smart enough not to contradict himself in the same post.

I wasn't talking about Morph, he was too smart for this. I guess I can't drop too many hints, so I'll just say Alvin Prime. Use all all-caps, unusually candy-coated views on Transformers, so on.

It's probably just a very creepy coincidence. Maybe by cynicism and lack of sleep is finally getting to me. I mean, I can't really be chased around by a four-foot tall talking pixie who sells blow to smurfs, can I?

Although I find that an unusually specific hallucination...

But back on topic, I would like to see some basic distrust of the Transformers. They did cause a lot of property damage...

And I would like to see some sort of shadowy cult-like thing show particular interest in the Transformers. I dunno about Freemasons or Thule; Freemasons are too well-known, and Thule is defunct.

I don't think it's him either.


Not smart enough for Morph. Too smart for Alvin Prime.

AncientSpark wrote:thank you. I had not realized I omitted a tag someplace and the quoted text became mine but I see that now and understand what you meant now. Sorry things got mixed up man.

I think that Jefferson, Washington and Franklin were high-level Freemasons and not fresh blood. I do understand that for some time a freemason may feel that they are too a Christian, but there is a degree that dissolves that myth right out of the water and pretty much states that you can't even speak of Jesus after that point and that the Jehova "God" is not, and the Luciferian god is the Universal Architect. So maybe newbie masons can still claim their Christian title, but not for too long and I doubt our forefathers were new in that game... and nothing said they were Christians. A great deal of Freemasons in the upper levels WILL in fact CLAIM to be God-fearing Christians to a PUBLIC audience but that is their guise or alt-mode if you will. (lol).

I don't understand where you're getting this from. Perhaps if you provided us with some links or books or something? Because everything I have ever read on Freemasonry links it very strongly to Christian principles. In fact, I'm finding it difficult to even identify a freemason who wasn't a Christian to begin with, or later converted. And all fiction regarding the masons, illuminati, secret cults etc. aside, the freemasons are not really that interesting, secretive, or clandestine. Just regular dudes really...

It's also inherently problematic to refer to "freemasons" and "christians", because there's no way you can refer to those groups as a whole and make sense. It's like saying an Amish man, a Jehovah's Witness, a Rastafarian, and an Evangelical Baptist must all have the same beliefs and behaviors because they're all "christian", which they are. But Amish guys don't go door to door smoking joints...

As far as nothing saying the United States founders weren't Christian, I mean, come on. I really, really don't want to insult you, but this is ludicrous. EVERY history book ever written, from the most supportive and apologetic to the most critical and vindictive establishes the basic premise that the founding fathers were predominatly white, male, property-owning Christians, as well as many of them belonging to a Freemason society. Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States" is a good place to start, one of thousands of books on the subject.

Luciferian god? Won't just Lucifer or Satan do? Incidentally, the image of Satan as horned and hooved actually derives from the satyr Pan, whom Catholics in the middle ages vilified because of his connection to women, song, and talking animals, kind of like hating on Ozzy Osbourne now.

AncientSpark, don't come back until you've read at least one of the many resources I've pointed to; I at least followed your Hiram Abiff link.