The Energon Pub

In fact am I missing something about all transformers that have an organic alt mode?

It seems that there are some seriously diehard beast wars and beast machine collectors out there.

I admit that I am a G1 fan, but I am not completely rigid in my view of the legend as I have enjoyed the new Animated show.

However as far as figures go, Transformers are metallic cybernetic organisms that have an alt mode made to HIDE them. So it makes sense that a being made from some kind of alloy would turn into a car, truck, plane, ship, gun, city, but ANIMALS?

Ok I thought the insecticons and dinobots were ok and looked beyond the skylinx and Predaking animal orientation because it was in the cartoon, but still didn't get how they were supposed to be hidden.

And even if not hidden as some of the non organic alt mode tformers stood out, they were supposed to transform into machines.

As far as Beast Wars and Machines goes, maybe I am missing something, like the history and mythology of the figures. Could someone fill me in as to the attraction to these lines?

As far as collecting is concerned, I think sky linx looks cool and would be a figure i would like, I am sticking with machine alt mode figures...my only slip in the animal transformer world is Alternators Ravage.

Ravage and Laserbeak get a pass...because they came from Soundwave!

In the beast wars show the characters landed on a pre-historic planet that was later discovered to be earth.

They adopted alt modes based on animals as they were the only lifeforms on the planet and had immunity to the energon radiation ripe on the planet.

So your point about organic modes being unsuited to survive and to hide isnt as valid on a world without any machines.




The beast wars show is the place to start to understand the appeal. Watch a story ark liek 'the agenda' and the ties to the G1 lore and the epic character driven storylines of beast wars are at their best.

In terms of the appeal, its the characters. Beast wars had a small cast and much more developed characters rather than a character popping up being unbeatable for its first episodes and making to show off all its gimmicks before fading into obscurity.

There are some great toys - the transmetals have amazing articulation and show accuracy and definatly worth checking out thier galleries at least after having a look at the show.

Reasons for the beast modes vary from series to series:

In the G1 series animal characters like the Dinobots had alternate modes less for disguise and more for combat enhancement. A Dinosaur body was more fit for close combat than a humanoid one. Also, in the case of the Insecticons, their alternate mode was based on the fact that there was nothing else around better to become. There were no cars, jets, tanks or whatever. Their computers saw bugs, and they became bugs to better fit in on Earth.

In the short-lived original comic book series, the synthesis of organic and mechanical made them stronger than either purely organic or mechanical beings.

In the confines of the Beast Wars TV show, the Transformers used to turn into card and jets and things, but when they came to the planet, they found it full of unstable and high energon levels which were hostile to mechanical/electrical systems. They choose to have alternate forms which had a synthetic organic coating on them which protected them from the effects.

On Beast Machines they arrived with their forms from Beast Wars, and theser forms, enhanced by the Oracle, were used to protect them from a virus Megatron was using on Cybertron. Technorganic animals seemed immune to the virus.

It's simple.
BEAST WARS RULES!

It's more about combat than disguise. There's a reason why characters like the Dinobots, the Predacons, and virtually any other G1 beast bots are known as supreme fighters. It don't matter if it's a car or a jet, mechanical alt modes are basicly bricks, solid objects, with no articulation. Having an articulated beast mode means more movement, range, and flexability for both modes. Also, the natural abilities ofthe animal are often copied and magnified by the bot. So if a real gorilla can lift half a ton, then a robot gorilla can lift 50 tons. Or if a hawk can fly at 100km/h, then a mechical hawk should easily be able to break the sound barrier many times over.

And let's face it, the Autobots and Decepticons didn't have to hide for very long. From the very first episode people were seeing them for what they really were. And in that same episode, a Decepticon mistook a human vehical for an Autobot. It would be safer for the innocent humans if the Autobots didn't hide among them and get them in the crossfire.

They didn't have to hide from humans in BW, so it didn't really matter what their alt modes were. It just so happened that animals are unaffected by the high energon radiation, nor are they detectable on enemy radar.

EDIT: Damb, I think Scaleface is in my head. His post is almost exactly the same as mine and we made them at the same time.

1 more thing. The Maximal/Predacon technology is a fusion of Pretender and Micromaster technology. They are energy efficent. And their alt modes are organic, not just in appearance, but in function too. They even make poopy.

I'm definitely missing "it" with Beast Wars. Before starting to collect again, I remember flipping past the show a couple times and walking past the toys in the stores once in a while and thinking what the hell happened to Transformers?

Since getting back into TFs, I'm still not warming up to them any. I dunno, they just look stupid to me. And ditto with Animated...

They are definitely a different "style" than previous toys. YOu might want to check out the different years for all the variations. They later had robotic animals, like G1, called "Transmetals", and ones with 3 modes (robot, animal and vehicle) and even in Japan they had some vehicle Predacons, who never took an animal form.

Apart from the toys though, the story from Beast Wars and Machines in the animated series was REALLY well done. Far superior to the later Armada, Energon and Cybertron stories. Even if they toys are not to you fancy, I'd suggest you go watch the show for a couple episodes from the beginning and give it a chance.

UltraPrimal wrote:It's simple.
BEAST WARS RULES!

QFT
Pretty much anything i can say about the BW or BM lines has been covered by everyone else here.

Scaleface wrote:Apart from the toys though, the story from Beast Wars and Machines in the animated series was REALLY well done. Far superior to the later Armada, Energon and Cybertron stories. Even if they toys are not to you fancy, I'd suggest you go watch the show for a couple episodes from the beginning and give it a chance.

QFT. The best part about these lines was the story. Armada, Energon, and even parts of Cybertron seemed to force the storyline and add in a bunch of human interest crap to boot. BW and BM had actual plot and not a lot of corny, idiotic dialogue. Love the music in BM, too. Check them out!

I have to say, I saw the first few episodes and it isn't that bad. The hokie silliness really isn't there. Although I still really am not warming to animal transformers, I'll have to keep watching some of the storyline, because the one thing you have to respect is the passion that the fans have for the line.

Oh and I do like the transmetals from G1. I did understand their background, but just didn't "get" the appeal.

It's probably the reason why I won't be getting the animated figures. They look good and very close to the cartoon, and I do find the storyline to be a nice new take on the Transformers lore, though their alt modes are just way too different from a realistic vehicle.

However I am considering getting the dinobots from Animated. Even with their storyline from G1 their strange shapes and curves would fit.

Right, everything's really been covered already. I just have to add one thing I don't think has been discussed.

In terms of the Insecticons, Predacons (G1), and Dinobots, yes the alt mode was introduced to hide the 'bots and 'cons but that's not the only thing it can do, as you must know.
It's a gift that each individual transformer can do what they chose with, most use it for disguise, some (Grimlock & the Dinobots particularly) use alternate forms based on power, and to give them an advantage in battle, not always in hiding.

Think of it like this. The peaceful autobots tend to use cars as alternate modes so they can hide in plain sight. However there are exceptions; Warpath, an over excitable warrior uses a tank, which lacks stealth but increases power. Grimlock just takes that to the next step.

Though I'm partial to vehicle 'bots, I like the idea of robots that can adapt to any alien environment. As a kid, I used to ask "What would a TF turn into if there was no technology on the planet where they landed?"

Well, I got my answer, and I don't mean Rock Lords.

Like most fans at the time, I felt that it flew in the face of everything that "Transformers" stood for. I disliked the toys and what I seen of the show, and I was in college(hence broke) by then, so I basically stopped collecting for the entire series run.

Well after, some of the figures truly began to interest me(Optimus Primal at first), then the Transmetals. Then I gave the show a second chance, and I now consider it the most well-written and the best character-driven TFs series to date(Animated may beat it, especially after yesterday's episode...).

Seriously, it's got everything. 'Bots are betrayed and change sides, characters die...there's tons of action, romance(yes), humor, fantastic voice acting, a superb villain and all-around colorful characters. I defy anyone to watch all 3 seasons of the show and not become personally invested in at least one character. Also, it is one of those rare shows that both adults and kids sit down together and watch. The adults don't feel stupid, and the kids get sucked right in.

As far as the toys are concerned, they accomplish what they set out for: passable organic alt-modes, action-figure-like articulation in 'bot mode, show accuracy(for the most part). They enjoyed the highest level of articulation at the time, mostly by way of ball-joints introduced in G2, and in turn evolved into Beast Machines, then RID and the Unicron Trilogy.

Whether people like the toys and/or the show has to admit what a huge part of TF history the Beast Wars is, if only because it answered many of the lingering questions that G1 left us with. Already said, Beast Wars rules.

I used to be dead set against buying Beast Wars/Machines anything. Then I watched Beast Wars. Then I fell in love. Then I went crazy go nuts and bought all the show characters. If you haven't watched the shows and seen how it all ties into the G1 mythology then that's what is missing for you.

Flux Convoy wrote:I used to be dead set against buying Beast Wars/Machines anything. Then I watched Beast Wars. Then I fell in love. Then I went crazy go nuts and bought all the show characters. If you haven't watched the shows and seen how it all ties into the G1 mythology then that's what is missing for you.

Agreed 100%. I could have wrote the same thing.

I always felt BW saved Transformers. After G2 died slowly, BW came in and really took off. Granted BW changed to BM and that sucked, but BW lasted a good 4 years and put out some good shows and toys.

If it weren't for BW, what would Hasbro have made since G2 failed? Without BW we may not have had a TF movie.

necare wrote:In fact am I missing something about all transformers that have an organic alt mode?


However as far as figures go, Transformers are metallic cybernetic organisms that have an alt mode made to HIDE them. So it makes sense that a being made from some kind of alloy would turn into a car, truck, plane, ship, gun, city, but ANIMALS?

Ok I thought the insecticons and dinobots were ok and looked beyond the skylinx and Predaking animal orientation because it was in the cartoon, but still didn't get how they were supposed to be hidden.

And even if not hidden as some of the non organic alt mode tformers stood out, they were supposed to transform into machines.

As far as collecting is concerned, I am sticking with machine alt mode figures.

I'm like you. I prefer dinobot-style robotic animal alt modes to the organic beast wars approach.

In my mind I always imagined they could project some sort of holographic animal surface that sort of blinks on, covering the mechanical body. Similar to Blackout's holographic pilot in the movie. An alt mode should be a disguise indistinguishable from the real thing, and this seems to me to be the best way to accomplish that.

And if you're going to have animal alt modes, I think you need a good justification for doing so. I always preferred a prehistoric origin for the dinobots(and revived in the present day) as opposed to the sort of, built-in-the-present-day-to-resemble-dinosaurs explanation.

Cyberjet #7 wrote:If it weren't for BW, what would Hasbro have made since G2 failed? Without BW we may not have had a TF movie.

I guess you don't remember the eighties like I do. There was always going to be a live-action transformers movie. Sooner or later, it was gonna happen.

I gotta say that the writing is great for the few shows that I watched. There weren't the ridiculously over the top monologues before each fight scene and it really seemed like the creatures were trying to hurt each other. There was more character development and the storylines were tight.

However, and I could be missing something because I did skip some scenes so hopefully a BW fan can help me out, How did they know about the future events of the Autobots and Decepticons, when talking about the future of the Ark.

Did they ever explain why there was a second megatron built? And one of the biggest issues was killing megatron with the other megatron's spark in his chest, but did he ever return it before being dragged off to Cybertron?


And my big question about BM, where was Shockwave in all this? He was protecting Cybertron from threats. I just didn't get the whole organic tree soil growth thing on Cybertron either.

The writing tie-ins with G1 was pretty solid on BW but they lost me during BM.

Plus spending a rainy day skimming through these episodes might have short circuited my brain too.

necare wrote:I gotta say that the writing is great for the few shows that I watched. There weren't the ridiculously over the top monologues before each fight scene and it really seemed like the creatures were trying to hurt each other. There was more character development and the storylines were tight.

However, and I could be missing something because I did skip some scenes so hopefully a BW fan can help me out, How did they know about the future events of the Autobots and Decepticons, when talking about the future of the Ark.

The characters from Beast Wars were from several hundred years AFTER 1985, but they had traveled back in time to be on earth. It was all history to them.

Did they ever explain why there was a second megatron built? And one of the biggest issues was killing megatron with the other megatron's spark in his chest, but did he ever return it before being dragged off to Cybertron?

This second Megatron was just a guy who started calling himself Megatron because he liked the name of the former Decepticon leader. It was impressive sounding and all. Yes, they said they returned the spark to the original Megatron off camera in the last episode.

And my big question about BM, where was Shockwave in all this? He was protecting Cybertron from threats. I just didn't get the whole organic tree soil growth thing on Cybertron either.

Presumably if Shockwave was on Cybertron when Beast Machines happened, he was a victim of the same virus which incapicated the rest of the population.

There is a deleted scene where they return Mregatron's spark. Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbTFSeQXYNY
Not sure if it made it into to the DVDs or not. Probably did. I gots to gets me those.

UltraPrimal wrote:There is a deleted scene where they return Mregatron's spark. Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbTFSeQXYNY
Not sure if it made it into to the DVDs or not. Probably did. I gots to gets me those.

I think the scene did make it onto the Season 3 discs, as like a special feature, but I seem to remember it being a badly animated scratch track kind of scene, not like a finished product. Could be wrong.

Scaleface wrote:

necare wrote:I gotta say that the writing is great for the few shows that I watched. There weren't the ridiculously over the top monologues before each fight scene and it really seemed like the creatures were trying to hurt each other. There was more character development and the storylines were tight.

However, and I could be missing something because I did skip some scenes so hopefully a BW fan can help me out, How did they know about the future events of the Autobots and Decepticons, when talking about the future of the Ark.

The characters from Beast Wars were from several hundred years AFTER 1985, but they had traveled back in time to be on earth. It was all history to them.

I was under the impression, That the maximals were descendants of the Original Autobots, however, they did not travel back in time they simply arrived to earth during the 50 million years that the autobots and decepticons were in stasis lock in the Ark.

So by the time the Autobots were reactivated by Teletran 1 the Maximals were long gone and were again Autobots in Cybertron.

Which is why they are able to find Prime and Megs in the Ark deactivated.

No, Maximals and Predacons evolved 300 years I think after the great war, all the bots know this pieco of history, and using a transwarp drive, the characters arrive on earth when the ark crashed. They defend or destroy the stasis locked inhabitants to alter time and make the Predacons rulers over the maximals.
In beast machines, the use the transwarp drive to travel back to Maximal times. But I don't know much more cos' BM was a pile of steaming manure. Worse even.
Beast wars is the most well written TF show ever, The toys are sweet too. It also has no REAL humans, unless you cont the Cavechildren, who were less annoying than you'd think. They were helpless bystanders, who managed to blunderingly help occasionally. Except the last episode, where they had evolved to be able to own predacons and not be killed by the NEMESIS. Damn.
People have already said it but..
BEAST WARS OWNS!
Yess...

i never liked the idea of beast wars and have put of watching/reading but ill be buying the dvd on payday just coz so many people love it

one big point that no ones brung up:
when these beastformers transform how come there skin dosnt rip up and blood splert everywhere!?!

someone said something about holographic skin but i think must be flesh coz of radiation or sumink

reasons why G1 beasts make sense
dynobots, preadacons(king) better for battle! plus pre-historic
ravage and lazerbeak ect.. better to travel long distace incogneto/ or even actual cybertronion 'animals' mayby soundwave made/trained them
Incectacons had to 'eat' and convert to energon(in idw really small)


reason why beast wars dont (it may answer these but i havent watched)
ark dosnt recognise organic life
no need to hide - animals dont care
flesh is not stronger than metal and it 'dies' and would rip ^
animals are much smaller than car/robots

that said G1 was FAR from perfect and ill soon be watchig the beast wars just hope its not too dated plus as a kid i hated the crappy cgi

end of first post!

Overcracker wrote:

Scaleface wrote:I was under the impression, That the maximals were descendants of the Original Autobots, however, they did not travel back in time they simply arrived to earth during the 50 million years that the autobots and decepticons were in stasis lock in the Ark.

So by the time the Autobots were reactivated by Teletran 1 the Maximals were long gone and were again Autobots in Cybertron.

Which is why they are able to find Prime and Megs in the Ark deactivated.

No, the Maximals and Predacons were from like the 24th century (or so) and Megatron used his transwarp drive to travel back in time. The Maximals simply followed him, but didn't know the destination.

There is some debate as to WHEN in history the Beast Wars took place. In one instance Rattrap mentions they would have to watch over the sleeping Autobots for "4 million years", which would imply it's JUST after the crash of the ark. In the 3H comics they say it's 180,000 BC. I think the IDW comics used a different date.

chronic wrote:i never liked the idea of beast wars and have put of watching/reading but ill be buying the dvd on payday just coz so many people love it

one big point that no ones brung up:
when these beastformers transform how come there skin dosnt rip up and blood splert everywhere!?!

someone said something about holographic skin but i think must be flesh coz of radiation or sumink

reasons why G1 beasts make sense
dynobots, preadacons(king) better for battle! plus pre-historic
ravage and lazerbeak ect.. better to travel long distace incogneto/ or even actual cybertronion 'animals' mayby soundwave made/trained them
Incectacons had to 'eat' and convert to energon(in idw really small)


reason why beast wars dont (it may answer these but i havent watched)
ark dosnt recognise organic life
no need to hide - animals dont care
flesh is not stronger than metal and it 'dies' and would rip ^
animals are much smaller than car/robots

that said G1 was FAR from perfect and ill soon be watchig the beast wars just hope its not too dated plus as a kid i hated the crappy cgi

end of first post!

Honestly, modern video game CGI cutscenes blow Beast Wars animation out of the water. After the initial few viewings it becomes tolerable.

I used to hate the very idea of Beast Wars. I was 12 in the heyday of G1 so that is where my roots lie. A few years ago I gave it a shot, much like you are about to do. After a few episodes I began to connect with the characters and appreciate the show. I like how there are very few "filler" episodes. Most of the shows drive the overall story. Except for a few cameos, most of the G1 crossovers did not happen until season 3.

To answer some questions, the organic mode is not for disguise. It is to protect the bots from going into statis lock due to Earth's overpowering Energon content. The Maximals crashed in a jungle-like region, so they assumed jungle creature modes (gorilla, cheetah, rat?, rhino, etc...). The Predacons crash in a desert region, therefore they scan scorpion, spider, wasp, and dinosaurs (from bones).

A certain suspension of disbelief is required, however the show is well written in comparison to many cartoons. Enjoy the discovery. I sure did.