The Energon Pub

It's probably been done, but since I couldn't find anything after skimming through a few pages, I thought I might as well post it. Anyway, apologies if it has.

In the G1 episode 'The Key to Vector Sigma Part 2', we see a brief scuffle between the Stunticons and the Aerialbots. Unfortunately, though, the encounter was interrupted by two individuals: Megatron and Omega Supreme. Before either combiner team could fully display their abilities, Megatron ordered the Stunticons to combine into Menasor, thus causing the first interruption. The second was courtesy of Omega Supreme, where he came to the rescue of a seemingly defeated Superion (curse you, Omega Supreme! *Shakes fist*).

The fight, in my opinion, was all too brief, only leaving us to wonder and speculate what could've been (maybe they've duked it out in the comics? I wouldn't know). So why not discuss/debate about it here? It does have great potential. Really, it does.

There are two things the Stunts possess that made me decide to post this battle. And they, according to Megatron, are...
1. Automatic force fields that makes their hulls impenetrable
2. Anti-gravitational abilities (how they "fly" through the air, or something like that)

I'll go into more detail when (or if...) this threads gathers a few responses.

Oh, and I won't let my bias affect my opinion. I promise.

Given those automatic force fields, the Stunticons sound like sure winners. However, like with most special abilities, I would guess those force fields drain the Stunticons of energy much faster, therefore they either have to stop using it, or make light work of the Aerialbots, which is unlikely. If matched up evenly, I think the only Stunticon who would win his fight would be Motormaster against Silverbolt. I like Silverbolt, but Motormaster would be too big and strong for hand-to-hand combat, and the only thing Silverbolt could do is stay away from him long enough for the force field to stop working. The Aerialbots' specialty, flying, is not an issue here, as you said the Stunticons can also fly. So this could be an aerial battle, though I think the Aerialbots have a better chance at winning that. Bottom line, if the Stunticons can finish off the Aerialbots before their force field wears off, they win. If not, they lose. Motormaster might beat Silverbolt, but the other 4 Aerialbots then would gang up on him and beat him. But he'd take 2 or 3 with him.

Are we useing the cartoon depictions or the bios and states as source material for this fight????

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Are we useing the cartoon depictions or the bios and states as source material for this fight????

Probably not. This is just for fun. So have some fun! Don't be so factually rigid all the time. Ruins the conversation.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Are we useing the cartoon depictions or the bios and states as source material for this fight????

Probably not. This is just for fun. So have some fun! Don't be so factually rigid all the time. Ruins the conversation.

Like I said in the other thread....for me part of the fun is in presenting a well thought out and logical argument.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Are we useing the cartoon depictions or the bios and states as source material for this fight????

Do you mean the tech specs, sto?

I'm happy to exclude or use them more as guidelines (sorry, N_V!), since I believe they can be troublesome. If you guys would like, I'd be happy to use the cartoon depictions and their strengths and weaknesses from their respective profiles. Surely that can work...

Plaything wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Are we useing the cartoon depictions or the bios and states as source material for this fight????

Do you mean the tech specs, sto?

I'm happy to exclude or use them more as guidelines (sorry, N_V!), since I believe they can be troublesome. If you guys would like, I'd be happy to use the cartoon depictions and their strengths and weaknesses from their respective profiles. Surely that can work...

Yes I ment the tech spec stats as well as the extended bios from TF universe from Marvel.

Plaything wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Are we useing the cartoon depictions or the bios and states as source material for this fight????

Do you mean the tech specs, sto?

I'm happy to exclude or use them more as guidelines (sorry, N_V!), since I believe they can be troublesome. If you guys would like, I'd be happy to use the cartoon depictions and their strengths and weaknesses from their respective profiles. Surely that can work...

i'm really confused. what are we compairing then? are we just picking favorites then? i can see how some don't make the best sense (swoop-speed 9, top speed 250 mph, while starscream-speed 9 is mach 3?), but i fail to see what we're compairing. i understand the "use them as guidelines part" but... stuff. i lost motivation to continue discussion. i'll be on my way now

Name_Violation wrote:i'm really confused. what are we compairing then? are we just picking favorites then? i can see how some don't make the best sense (swoop-speed 9, top speed 250 mph, while starscream-speed 9 is mach 3?), but i fail to see what we're compairing. i understand the "use them as guidelines part" but... stuff. i lost motivation to continue discussion. i'll be on my way now

This is most unusual.

Why are you confused, N_V? You brought the tech specs into these battles, no? It seems you have inadvertently confused and complicated matters by introducing the tech specs into the battles. But I don't see how it's so confusing, to tell you the truth.

Alright then, gents, let's clear up this apparent mess, shall we? Let's throw away this canvas of grey and paint the picture black and white, so to speak.

I suppose our source material should be separated into three categories:
1. Cartoons
2. Comics
3. Profiles (the Marvel bios and tech specs)

This way we'll have a more specific battle without all the fuss. Choose one, or choose them all for your battle.

This isn't, by any means, the finalized solution; this is to just get the ball rolling.

Please, help me out here. Let's get things back on track!

In cartoon continutity the aerials have the best record as combiner teams go. They've defeated every team they've faced including the protectobots. Superion defeated Bruticus and the Purple griffon at the same time. In cosmic rust they defeated Menasor soundly despite having the lighting bug weapon on top of it's normal arsenal.

They turned the tide when they showed up to save the autobot's butts. Only reason superion seemed be in trouble was a landslide happen to come down on them mid fight. Otherwise Superion was besting Menasor.

While non-canon, in scramble city OVA Superion stands up to both Menasor and Bruticus alone. They use their tactics to form and reform quickly to gain the upper hand, as a trick they pull a couple times. (something the Energon incarnation Superion Maxiumus homages.) It's not till the Stunticons jam up one of his legs with one of their arms does it get ugly. had it been 1 on 1 Superion would likely held defeat either one of them. Defensor and Metroplex show up so the fight quickly ends.


I'm not going say Menasor is a push over, as he has one of the best decepticon combiner records. He's defeated both Devastor and Bruticus. (a cheap shot but still was one hit.) He's a berzerker, despite being one of the smallest combiner teams he's a force be reckoned with.

I wouldn't put much stake in stats. Half the time any Prime character has all 10s, despite we know full well theres faster and stronger characters. (I'd assume Metroplex,and Omega Supreme has more fire power and is stronger.) Only stat that ever remotely made sense was rank. The rest are all over the place, as beast wars wiki made a joke that inferno made a rather useful meat shield despite having 4 endurence hehe.

On side note if you were take both the aerial bots and stunticons into the movieverse with their G1 alt modes you'd have a very ..I mean very one sided battle hehe. Silverbolt alone would be 160 feet tall , toss 4 50 feet long places on that and you have a roughly 200 feet tall superion. Menasor would be lucky be 80 feet tall given he's made of cars, and one semi+trailer.Plus the aerials can fly, and the stunticons can't there since only flyers fly rule is in place. Id imagine there'd be some tweaking of alt modes on the aerial bots if we ever saw a bayverse version. I'd love see it happen though.

These are my two favorite combiner teams from each faction. The stunticons just are so crazy and reckless. While aerialbots are brave and mouthy flyboys. Fortunately for them their bodies can cash checks their mouths can write. I Believe the Aerialbots will prevail over most other combiners in G1 more often than not. But the Stunticons aren't easy to beat.

Heres a video for them BTW, it totally fits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EibaLocP7nY
Someone really needs show this video to Michael bay, I think he'd fall in love with them hehe.

well as i rarely go by tech spechs or the cartoon for that matter due to them being contradicting and unreliable most of the time. i have my owns ideas on pretty much all the transformers.

in my mind the stunticons win.

their force fields giving one major advantage, second to me they seem very like minded most of the time wich i see as a huge advantage when combining since there would be less confliction on what to do. i also think silverbolt feer of heights would come into play when combined as superion.

FortMacs wrote:well as i rarely go by tech spechs or the cartoon for that matter due to them being contradicting and unreliable most of the time. i have my owns ideas on pretty much all the transformers.

in my mind the stunticons win.

their force fields giving one major advantage, second to me they seem very like minded most of the time wich i see as a huge advantage when combining since there would be less confliction on what to do. i also think silverbolt feer of heights would come into play when combined as superion.

I have to ask you this question.

If your not going by the tech specs or the cartoon how can you make any assumptions about their personalities????

FortMacs wrote:in my mind the stunticons win.

their force fields giving one major advantage, second to me they seem very like minded most of the time wich i see as a huge advantage when combining since there would be less confliction on what to do. i also think silverbolt feer of heights would come into play when combined as superion.

The Stunts are like-minded when it comes to destruction and whatnot, but you have to remember that Breakdown, Dead End, Drag Strip and Wildrider; they all hate Motormaster. Hate, hate, hate! Their deep reluctance to merge with Motormaster causes much confliction, contrary to what you may believe.

I doubt Superion's intellect would be complex enough to understand and rationalize all the Aerialbots' personalities, even though Silverbolt's the driving force behind the Autobot gestalt. As long as Silverbolt's focused on fighting, or on his fellow Aerialbots, or even on Superion, perhaps, his acrophobia is contained.

The Stunts are like-minded when it comes to destruction and whatnot, but you have to remember that Breakdown, Dead End, Drag Strip and Wildrider; they all hate Motormaster. Hate, hate, hate! Their deep reluctance to merge with Motormaster causes much confliction, contrary to what you may believe.

I doubt Superion's intellect would be complex enough to understand and rationalize all the Aerialbots' personalities, even though Silverbolt's the driving force behind the Autobot gestalt. As long as Silverbolt's focused on fighting, or on his fellow Aerialbots, or even on Superion, perhaps, his acrophobia is contained.

This absolutely true... as the profile for superion...

Superion has two simple goals that dominate his every action: one, to destroy the Decepticons and two, to protect others. His thoughts are a combination of all five Aerialbots distilled to their respective cores, with anything not relating to his primary function being suppressed. Because of his single-minded attitude, the other Autobots find Superion to be distant and unfeeling. In reality, he acts this way because he cares so much about his mission that he is willing to sacrifice everything else for it.

Superion ignores Silverbolts fear along with any other thought that isn't required for the task at hand.


Which Menasor has this going on...

Menasor was meant to be the ultimate Decepticon weapon, and perhaps he would have been if not for the fatal flaw in his design. His mind was designed to merge together the psyches of the five Stunticons who compose his form, but the great depth of loathing the four limb components feel towards Motormaster has created a primal psychological rift and left Menasor an unpredictable mass of conflicting, chaotic impulses. Extremely powerful, mentally unstable, and prone to violent tantrums where he lashes out at anything in range, Menasor is not a weapon to point and fire, but a raging monster to turn loose on the battlefield and then get as far away from as possible.

Menasor has the small man complex as far as combiners go. (which is fitting since he is the smallest one.) He's this raging berzerker. Superion is the exact opposite, as he's this cool calm being who is pure will and determination to win. Over all Superion just comes out on top usually cause Menasor too reckless for his own good, not that Superion isn't in his own right heh. (taking a tactical nuke head on.)

I don't think the tech stats do either justice, as it lists both on the slower side. That has never been shown be true about either of them. Sure they aren't as agile some small Jazz, but they've always been shown to move faster than your typical combiner. (which all them including predaking has dismal speed stats.) It flat out says Superion can fly 800 mph , how in heck is he a 3 speed. (his 2009 versions stats sound closer to where he should be as he's 8 speed.) I never saw either as being slow even by combiner standards.

Lastjustice wrote:Menasor has the small man complex as far as combiners go. (which is fitting since he is the smallest one.)

I didn't realise Menasor was the smallest. I would've thought Devastator was, since he happened to be "early gestalt technology."

Lastjustice wrote:Superion is the exact opposite, as he's this cool calm being who is pure will and determination to win. Over all Superion just comes out on top usually cause Menasor too reckless for his own good, not that Superion isn't in his own right heh. (taking a tactical nuke head on.)

Ah, but you see Menasor's recklessness would prove to be dangerously unpredictable, making it difficult for Superion to plot the appropriate course of action to engage him. Who knows... Maybe by the time the 'Bot gestalt had figured out the correct method to deal with Menasor, the psychotic combined 'Con had pressed an advantage, keeping Superion on the back foot?

That's just a speculative point of view, of course; a scenario, a thought. Just something to keep this battle open.

Lastjustice wrote:I don't think the tech stats do either justice, as it lists both on the slower side. That has never been shown be true about either of them. Sure they aren't as agile some small Jazz, but they've always been shown to move faster than your typical combiner. (which all them including predaking has dismal speed stats.) It flat out says Superion can fly 800 mph , how in heck is he a 3 speed. (his 2009 versions stats sound closer to where he should be as he's 8 speed.) I never saw either as being slow even by combiner standards.

I agree. The tech specs are a bit iffy. Too general, I guess; not specific enough. Still, they can work as decent enough guidelines some of the time.

Superion classed with 3 speed, though, is pretty outrageous. 3 speed, 800 mph? Hmmm, okay...

Lastjustice wrote:It flat out says Superion can fly 800 mph , how in heck is he a 3 speed.

Sorry if I misunderstood you but where does it say that Superion is a "3" in speed????

The origin tech spec for him has him listed as an 8 in speed.

Plaything wrote:I agree. The tech specs are a bit iffy. Too general, I guess; not specific enough. Still, they can work as decent enough guidelines some of the time.

I have to disagree.

I think the tech spec's are a great resource for determining character capabilities.

The way I see it, the tech specs's combined with the Marvel Universe extended bios are the best way to go.You can also add the updated info from the Dreamwave bios when Marvels is lacking.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Plaything wrote:I agree. The tech specs are a bit iffy. Too general, I guess; not specific enough. Still, they can work as decent enough guidelines some of the time.

I have to disagree.

I think the tech spec's are a great resource for determining character capabilities.

Don't get me wrong, I think, just as you said, the tech specs are great (perhaps I should stop calling them guidelines, hm?). What I really meant to say was, sometimes a single stat (say speed for example) will appear to be a bit iffy...to me.

Honestly, I don't know why I sometimes question the stats; I always use them.

sto wrote:The way I see it, the tech specs's combined with the Marvel Universe extended bios are the best way to go.You can also add the updated info from the Dreamwave bios when Marvels is lacking.

I like the Dreamwave bios. Those datatrack entries give great insight on the particular Transformer, whoever it may be.

I found a great website with pretty much all the Dreamwave bios, but it ended up "expiring" or something weird like that.

http://www.transformers-universe.com/in ... ontentid=6

most of the DW bio's

Nice website.

Thanks a lot, N_V!

Name_Violation wrote:http://www.transformers-universe.com/include.php?path=content/content.php&contentid=6

most of the DW bio's

Kool

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

FortMacs wrote:well as i rarely go by tech spechs or the cartoon for that matter due to them being contradicting and unreliable most of the time. i have my owns ideas on pretty much all the transformers.

in my mind the stunticons win.

their force fields giving one major advantage, second to me they seem very like minded most of the time wich i see as a huge advantage when combining since there would be less confliction on what to do. i also think silverbolt feer of heights would come into play when combined as superion.

I have to ask you this question.

If your not going by the tech specs or the cartoon how can you make any assumptions about their personalities????

Oh, sto, you crazy, logical Klingon!

Anyhow, here's my thinkin':

Stunticons win. Not really tech-spec based, so it may all be faulty thinking, buit like was posted earlier, Motormaster can/would beat Silverbot in a physical contest. If the other Stunticons were to gang up on one Arielbot, like I think it's SLingshot, the slow, braggart one (?) and could beat him while holding off the other three, then it becomes a matter of time thing. If Silverbolt/Slingshot are down then Superion is out of the question, and then it becomes a five on three and a matter of time.

I didn't realise Menasor was the smallest. I would've thought Devastator was, since he happened to be "early gestalt technology."

He has the smallest components of the G1 combiners, as both in the show and the toy itself he's the smallest. Not by alot, but he is, which plays into his inferiority complex, I can envision Motormaster holding it against the rest of them for them not being bigger than the other combiners haha. Bunch of runts...you're holding me back...Slag you motormaster. Motormaster is kind of like the Juggernaut of transformers , an unstoppable bully.

Sorry if I misunderstood you but where does it say that Superion is a "3" in speed????

I fudged it up when i was flipping thru the numbers between combiners on this page http://tfu.info/alpha/index.htm , I looked at the intelligence(which Superion has outsmarted his foes plenty of times, and has enough skill use their scatter reform trick on foes.) not the speed. Still Menasor(2) and Predaking(3) are both terribly in the speed stats. I dont feel the stats fit the characters as this quote sums it up well.

http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Tech_specs
The current lineup of stats is: Strength, Intelligence, Speed, Endurance, Rank, Courage, Fireblast (previously Firepower, which actually means something), and Skill. This list has varied surprisingly little over the decades.

While these stats often correspond at least loosely to the described abilities of the characters, parity between characters is virtually nonexistent. Optimus Prime, for instance, has traditionally maxed out most or all of his stats, despite the existence of much stronger, faster, fireblastier characters. The only category with anything really close to a sense of scale between characters is "Rank," where faction leaders tend to be 10s, group leaders tend to be 9s and 8s, and most others are below that. There are of course many exceptions, but at least there's a solid trend.

If there was some context to said stats, then they d hold a bit more water. Like if Brawn is a 10 strength, but he's a ten for a bot his in size/weight class. (in same manner an Ant is extremely strong for it's size) But someone like Metroplex dwarves his strength due to fact he's 100 of times larger.

In general stats in fictional characters rarely mean much, Marvel has it's 1-7 stats as Captain America,spiderman and Wolverine have the Prime Syndrome of being really high stats for being popular/leader characters, despite guys like Galactus would horribly crush them both. The bios weren't much better as they rated some characters far below the feats they've done. (like sasquach has lifted a 200 ton jet effortlessly despite only being rated a 70 ton character.) Or DBZ with the scouter numbers over 9000!

It just feels like the stats got slapped together, as they don't always match the profiles given. Such as.

http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Sky_High_(Pretender)
Sky High's toy has one of the most contradictory Tech Spec/bio combos around. It describes him as a brick-dumb muscle-head, but then gives him an impressive Intelligence stat of 8 and a motto about "imagination unlocking the keys of reality." Dreamwave's MTMTE profile book did a fairly clever job of making that all actually work together by cooking up the expanded characterization above.

So I dont put much stock in them, as they might as well been fan voted. While there might be ones in later series where they scale them between bots better, but it usually falls into popularity of the character means better stats.

All that said, unless superion fighting some battlefield with alot of X factors, (like in middle of a city with people he will undoubtly try defend and buildings and hazards to trip him up.) He will have Menasor's number. As I've said he's got one of the best track records in the show as combiners go. If you tossed them both into an open plain with nothing around 300 yards from each other, and said lets go, Superion would take it. Once you start putting different X factors into the conflict it can be anyones game. Superion with only a foe to vanquish is totally focused, and really how to catch off guard.

Lastjustice wrote:I fudged it up when i was flipping thru the numbers between combiners on this page http://tfu.info/alpha/index.htm , I looked at the intelligence(which Superion has outsmarted his foes plenty of times, and has enough skill use their scatter reform trick on foes.) not the speed. Still Menasor(2) and Predaking(3) are both terribly in the speed stats. I dont feel the stats fit the characters as this quote sums it up well.

http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Tech_specs
The current lineup of stats is: Strength, Intelligence, Speed, Endurance, Rank, Courage, Fireblast (previously Firepower, which actually means something), and Skill. This list has varied surprisingly little over the decades.

While these stats often correspond at least loosely to the described abilities of the characters, parity between characters is virtually nonexistent. Optimus Prime, for instance, has traditionally maxed out most or all of his stats, despite the existence of much stronger, faster, fireblastier characters. The only category with anything really close to a sense of scale between characters is "Rank," where faction leaders tend to be 10s, group leaders tend to be 9s and 8s, and most others are below that. There are of course many exceptions, but at least there's a solid trend.

If there was some context to said stats, then they d hold a bit more water. Like if Brawn is a 10 strength, but he's a ten for a bot his in size/weight class. (in same manner an Ant is extremely strong for it's size) But someone like Metroplex dwarves his strength due to fact he's 100 of times larger.

In general stats in fictional characters rarely mean much, Marvel has it's 1-7 stats as Captain America,spiderman and Wolverine have the Prime Syndrome of being really high stats for being popular/leader characters, despite guys like Galactus would horribly crush them both. The bios weren't much better as they rated some characters far below the feats they've done. (like sasquach has lifted a 200 ton jet effortlessly despite only being rated a 70 ton character.) Or DBZ with the scouter numbers over 9000!

It just feels like the stats got slapped together, as they don't always match the profiles given. Such as.

http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Sky_High_(Pretender)
Sky High's toy has one of the most contradictory Tech Spec/bio combos around. It describes him as a brick-dumb muscle-head, but then gives him an impressive Intelligence stat of 8 and a motto about "imagination unlocking the keys of reality." Dreamwave's MTMTE profile book did a fairly clever job of making that all actually work together by cooking up the expanded characterization above.

So I dont put much stock in them, as they might as well been fan voted. While there might be ones in later series where they scale them between bots better, but it usually falls into popularity of the character means better stats.

All that said, unless superion fighting some battlefield with alot of X factors, (like in middle of a city with people he will undoubtly try defend and buildings and hazards to trip him up.) He will have Menasor's number. As I've said he's got one of the best track records in the show as combiners go. If you tossed them both into an open plain with nothing around 300 yards from each other, and said lets go, Superion would take it. Once you start putting different X factors into the conflict it can be anyones game. Superion with only a foe to vanquish is totally focused, and really how to catch off guard.

I see what your trying to get at.

However I believe that issue with the inconsitencies is due to the fact that they didnt think ahead in the first year.

If you compare the stats of all the "first year" bots and cons they make a lot of sence.Even Brawn being stronger then bigger bots makes sence if you read the bio.

The problems dont really appear till you get to the 2nd year and the combiner stats.

Hey Sto, since you love toss around tech stats, may be you can help with my other thread hehe.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=60821

Lastjustice wrote:Hey Sto, since you love toss around tech stats, may be you can help with my other thread hehe.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=60821

I'll check it out.