The Energon Pub

[Jelze Bunnycat]

Maybe tell them to stick with trusted and reputable dealers (like the site sponsors) if people wish to avoid them like the plague?

Well, depending on how picky you want to be, even sticking with site sponsors can be tricky. Some (including Ryan, which I suppose is the most important factor as far as this discussion goes) don't see much difference between third parties and KOs, so this may not matter... but if you want to avoid KOs of third party products, then Robot Kingdom is not for you.

And while it seems to have been an isolated incident, I seem to recall (my memory is hazy and I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong) that even the venerable BBTS once accidentally purchased a shipment of KO Encore Metroplexes. To their credit, they were up front about it and didn't lie to their customers... but BBTS still sold them. That might not happen now, since BBTS seems to have a closer relationship with Hasbro and I doubt they'd want to risk that... but I'm just pointing out that one cannot say that even the site sponsors are always 100% KO free.

Still, the incident was caught, the store was upfront about it and as long as they were sold with the major note they were actually fakes I'm cool with it, and BBTS deserves some credit for that. I do agree you can never be 100% safe with anything, but you can limit the risk to yourself by knowing where to shop relatively safely, and who can be trusted among individual sellers. Nothing for the front page I'm sure, that's where the members (pro and con) come in, like it or not

btw I did read once that at least BBTS was warned by Hasbro at one point, but I don't really remember the specifics.

[Gauntlet101010]

BBTS bought the Encore versions and were sent the KOs. I've heard they no longer do business with that factory.

I think even Robot Kingdom clearly identifies KOs as KOs. It's not really online stores that are the problem - it's ebay.

[njb902]

Oops sorry Burn I didn't see your post before I posted.

[Burn]

Really? You really want to test my patience when I've said TWICE for the discussion to return to KO reporting?

[njb902]

Really? You really want to test my patience when I've said TWICE for the discussion to return to KO reporting?

Sorry.

[Rated X]

Seeing how were all on the "Unofficial Transformers 3rd Party and Knock Offs Toys" forum section, all of you are just as guilty of not supporting Hasbro.

Visiting a forum for non-HasTak product is not the same as not supporting HasTak product. FAIL.

Hasbro/Takara would like you guys to not even visit these forums and only acknowledge the existence of THEIR products.

Do you work for HasTak? What's that? You don't? Therefore, you cannot know what forum or behaviors they do or do not want me to participate in. FAIL.

If you own one 3rd party product (even a measly Dr. Wu sword) you are supporting a cause that is flat out anti-Hasbro/Takara.

Accessories and add-on products that are predicated on you actually owning a HasTak product necessarily indicates that the person who buys them is not supporting an anti-HasTak cause. Just the opposite. FAIL.

So all of you 3rd party collectors who mock me for supporting KO's are a bunch of hypocrites.

3rd Party products are on a basic level an entirely different category than KOs. FAIL.

You don the "Hasbro Badge of Honor" proudly like a bunch of boy scouts, but then turn around and buy products from companies that flat out steal from the corporation you pledge allegiance to.

Nope - that's you, the avid KO buyer. FAIL.

The only thing I pledge allegiance to is a really awesome era during the 80's known as G1. As far as how to homage G1 best and who should do it, I’m in favor of a free for all.

If you actually pledge allegiance to G1, then you should respect the products that actually came out of that era, as well as the architects of that era. But you don't.

FAIL.

I’ve think you’ve “FAILED” to see the big picture.

I’m not good at using the quote feature multiple times so Ill address your points in bullets in the order that you made them…

• You’re not just visiting a forum for a non-Has/Tak product, you’re posting on it frequently. By doing so, you’re building its internet traffic, and keeping it from being a ghost town of a thread. This encourages others to check in and leave their opinions on previous posts and makes the forum a hot potato. That’s third party promotion at its best. So you are inadvertently supporting third parties by keeping this forum alive and thriving. I’m sure if Hasbro had it their way, they would direct you to the TFCC forums where you can hear the crickets chirping.

• If Has/Tak doesn’t support third parties, why would they support use of forums that promote the 3rd party cause? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist (AKA Hasbro employee) to figure that out.

• Small ad on sets that require an existing Hasbro product only foot the bill to finance full blown figures down the line. Fansproject’s first product was a simple upgrade for Cliffjumper. TFC started out with the Gear of War set. Mech Ideas started out with a set that turns RTS Jazz into Alternators Shockwave. Igear made add on sets before they started the Mini-Warrior line. Perfect Effect also started out with add on sets. All these companies have used the money they made from simple add on sets to finance projects that Hasbro would never endorse due to blatant IP Theft. So YES YOU ARE supporting the anti-Has/Tak cause by buying add on sets.

• Theft is theft. Whether it’s the idea that’s stolen or the actual design of a product, it’s still theft. You can sugarcoat it all you want, but 3rd parties are essentially KOing an idea based on the argument that the idea’s creator didn’t turn the idea into a tangible product. So in essence, 3rd party products and KO’s are the same thing. It’s all eating off of Has/Tak’s plate. How many classics Megatrons are on e-bay because Toyworld’s Hegemon came out? Has/Tak can never re-issue their winged Megatron mold again. It would be a total loss. Now they have to either “top” Hegemon, or bow down to defeat on their own character. How ironic is that? All those who think 3rd party figures are awesome but condemn KO’s are all a bunch of hypocrites. Keep eating off Hasbro’s plate and living a lie. It’s all the same s**t.

• I don’t wear a Hasbro badge of honor buddy. I pledge allegiance to no company. I support the concept of G1 and its characters and fiction. Some of it’s creators are dead or don’t work for Has/Tak anymore. But they’re work gets passed from CEO to CEO like a corporate torch. This is not the 80’s, this is 2013 and G1 is about 30 years old. Anyone can own the rights to something. That doesn’t mean the current owner actually created it. So why should I pledge allegiance to the NEW Hasbro and it’s stakeholders who had NOTHING to do with the creation of G1? Some of them were wearing diapers back in 1984. Have you ever attended a Team Hasbro panel at Botcon? They’re not exactly old timers. Some look like they’re in their late 20’s. Unless you view things from a corporate perspective (which you obviously do) supporting KO’s of figures that young Team Hasbro didn’t create isn’t hurting or insulting them directly. Does it hurt corporate revenue? Sure it does. Do I give a damn about the corporate echelon of Hasbro? You already know the answer to that question, LOL…

• As I stated before, when it comes down to who should homage G1, I’m in favor of a free for all. Just because someone did it first, doesn’t make them the best. Ask Henry Ford, the whole world KOed his IP and he didn’t complain. He made what he could and lived well. Today’s Hasbro does the same. They got the kids. KO’s wont make or break Hasbro, but they sure seem to break you and many others.

[Yotsuyasan]

I was about to respond to some of Rated X's latest post... but I stopped myself. It would just drag out the very endless debate I asked if we could avoid in the original post, and even foolishly indulged in a bit myself earlier.

So... I'm not a mod, so I can't come down with a vicious hammer of justice like Burn did with his quite justfied demand to drop the MLP stuff... but as the humble creator of this thread, can I please put in another plea to not have this turn into yet another debate of "Official vs. KOs" or "Third Party vs. KOs" or "Official vs. Third Party & KOs"? And please keep it on how KOs are reported, if there is a need to refine it, and if so suggestions as to how?

Please?

Thanks!

[Rated X]

Really? You really want to test my patience when I've said TWICE for the discussion to return to KO reporting?

Just saw your post after writing an reply to Megatronus that took a while. No more ponies from me on this thread I promise. I was discussing KO's. Not so much on reporting though. There's not alot to say about how you guys should report them. You got three choices:

* Support KO's

* Don't support KO's (current stance)

* Remain neutral and report them as "sightings"

The moment you choose one of the other two options, you're going to upset a certain group. You cant please everyone...

[Rated X]

I was about to respond to some of Rated X's latest post... but I stopped myself. It would just drag out the very endless debate I asked if we could avoid in the original post, and even foolishly indulged in a bit myself earlier.

So... I'm not a mod, so I can't come down with a vicious hammer of justice like Burn did with his quite justfied demand to drop the MLP stuff... but as the humble creator of this thread, can I please put in another plea to not have this turn into yet another debate of "Official vs. KOs" or "Third Party vs. KOs" or "Official vs. Third Party & KOs"? And please keep it on how KOs are reported, if there is a need to refine it, and if so suggestions as to how?

Please?

Thanks!

Read my last post. Im done with this battle. No need to call on Burn. But at the end of the day remember how KO's are reported all depends on what stance you take. And expressing the stance you take will open the door to these type of debates every time. It's inevitable.

[Yotsuyasan]

Read my last post. Im done with this battle. No need to call on Burn. But at the end of the day remember how KO's are reported all depends on what stance you take. And expressing the stance you take will open the door to these type of debates every time. It's inevitable.

Well, I think your last post was made while I was writing mine, so I hadn't seen it yet.

As for our various stances, in a lot of ways they are all irrelevant. What is relevant is Ryan's stance, and that is one that is anti-KO. What this discussion is about is if Seibertron.com is truly living up to that stance as well as it can, and if it accidentally* isn't what might be done to help it do so.

* As stated in earlier posts of mine, no inference was ever intended that within the context of front page news articles, this stance was being intentionally defied.

[xyl360]

One plausible solution to resolve any confusion, at least for newer members who just read the news articles and don't look into threads on the forums themselves would be simply to obscure/not show any of the replies/comments to a topic within the news posting itself rather than allowing n# of replies to be displayed on the same page as the article. This would ensure that no readers of the news articles directly see anything except for the intended message which boils down to "Watch out TF collectors, a KO of "Figure X" is out there so make sure you don't get ripped off on ebay!"

[Gauntlet101010]

Most people who buy 3rd party TFs aren't anti-Hasbro/Takara/official. Official-indifferent perhaps, but anti-official is a whole different ball game.

At any rate, hiding comments from some news articles seems like a fine way to stop the wrong message from being sent. Is this even possible, though?

[megatronus]

Most people who buy 3rd party TFs aren't anti-Hasbro/Takara/official. Official-indifferent perhaps, but anti-official is a whole different ball game.

Agreed!

At any rate, hiding comments from some news articles seems like a fine way to stop the wrong message from being sent. Is this even possible, though?

I think hiding comments is a bad idea. Besides potentially being a logistical challenge, I think it goes against the spirit of the site.

If you have a boilerplate disclaimer that declares that Seibertron.com does not recommend purchasing knock-offs, that the news is for informational purposes only, and that utilizing the site sponsors is the best way to avoid knock-offs, I think most of the issues/confusion with KO reporting will be resolved.

[Yotsuyasan]

Most people who buy 3rd party TFs aren't anti-Hasbro/Takara/official.

Hear, hear.

...hiding comments from some news articles seems like a fine way to stop the wrong message from being sent. Is this even possible, though?

I think hiding comments is a bad idea. Besides potentially being a logistical challenge, I think it goes against the spirit of the site.

If you have a boilerplate disclaimer that declares that Seibertron.com does not recommend purchasing knock-offs, that the news is for informational purposes only, and that utilizing the site sponsors is the best way to avoid knock-offs, I think most of the issues/confusion with KO reporting will be resolved.

I wouldn't be opposed to making the comments not visible on the news page. I would assume that there would still be a link on the bottom of the page to where the discussion thread is. That way, the potentially KO-supporting user created content would not be visible on the news page, but then discussion would not be stifled in the way that earlier suggestions of just immediately locking such threads would have done. Of course, as has been suggested, unless one of the powers that be chime in, it is not known if such a thing would even be logistically possible.

In the end, even if it doesn't completely hide the problem, I think a well worded standardized disclaimer in every KO warning news story is likely the solution that would best address the issue without too much trouble on the part of the powers that be, and without a detrimental effect on the community at large.

[xyl360]

Most people who buy 3rd party TFs aren't anti-Hasbro/Takara/official.

Hear, hear.

...hiding comments from some news articles seems like a fine way to stop the wrong message from being sent. Is this even possible, though?

I think hiding comments is a bad idea. Besides potentially being a logistical challenge, I think it goes against the spirit of the site.

If you have a boilerplate disclaimer that declares that Seibertron.com does not recommend purchasing knock-offs, that the news is for informational purposes only, and that utilizing the site sponsors is the best way to avoid knock-offs, I think most of the issues/confusion with KO reporting will be resolved.

I wouldn't be opposed to making the comments not visible on the news page. I would assume that there would still be a link on the bottom of the page to where the discussion thread is. That way, the potentially KO-supporting user created content would not be visible on the news page, but then discussion would not be stifled in the way that earlier suggestions of just immediately locking such threads would have done. Of course, as has been suggested, unless one of the powers that be chime in, it is not known if such a thing would even be logistically possible.

In the end, even if it doesn't completely hide the problem, I think a well worded standardized disclaimer in every KO warning news story is likely the solution that would best address the issue without too much trouble on the part of the powers that be, and without a detrimental effect on the community at large.

Yep, exactly. I'd still want a link to the thread/comments so that discussion is still encouraged and accessible.

I also agree that a simple flat out disclaimer might be enough and would probably be the simplest way to sort all of this out, at least from my point of view. I think such a message would be sufficient to explain the purpose of the article and to express the opinion/official stance of this website and its owner(s) on the subject matter.

[Burn]

So logistically speaking ... if the News Crew had an option to display comments or not in the news article ... that would be a good idea? (With a link to the thread should people wish to view/join in the discussion)

I'm not sure as to the reasoning behind comments displaying in the news article, I always just accepted that it was there as a way to encourage people to post and join in the community.

[Yotsuyasan]

So logistically speaking ... if the News Crew had an option to display comments or not in the news article ... that would be a good idea? (With a link to the thread should people wish to view/join in the discussion)

I'm not sure as to the reasoning behind comments displaying in the news article, I always just accepted that it was there as a way to encourage people to post and join in the community.

Well, as I understand it, currently the default (only) option is to display comments from the discussion thread associated with a news story under that news story. And this is what leads to comments which could be seen as supportive of (or even advertisement for) knock offs appearing on a page with a news story, even if the intent of that news story is to try and warn against those things.

The suggestion someone made was that if it was logistically possible, change it so that the forum comments appearing on the news pages was optional, presumably only to be excluded from knock off reporting articles. However, to avoid seeming as if discussion was not an option, there would at least still remain a link to that discussion thread should someone wish to view it.

While I would not be upset to see such a thing implemented, at this point (and after all of the discussion here) I would be content with the standardized disclaimer idea. In fact, if I had to choose between the two (should they for some reason be mutually exclusive) I'd go with the disclaimer over hiding the forum comments.

I did suggest a wording for such a disclaimer. I'll repeat it here for reference:

Photos and links contained within this news article are for informational purposes only, to educate our readers about the existence of knock off products so that they may better avoid purchasing them. Any views contained within the attached discussion thread are those of the individual posters. Seibertron.com does not endorse or encourage the purchase of any products not made under the authority of Hasbro or Takara.

If the news crew likes that disclaimer, please feel free to use it! If people think the wording needs a bit of work, fine. But I think the above captures the spirit of what I would hope to see.

[Agamemnon]

So logistically speaking ... if the News Crew had an option to display comments or not in the news article ... that would be a good idea? (With a link to the thread should people wish to view/join in the discussion)

I'm not sure as to the reasoning behind comments displaying in the news article, I always just accepted that it was there as a way to encourage people to post and join in the community.

Well, as I understand it, currently the default (only) option is to display comments from the discussion thread associated with a news story under that news story. And this is what leads to comments which could be seen as supportive of (or even advertisement for) knock offs appearing on a page with a news story, even if the intent of that news story is to try and warn against those things.

The suggestion someone made was that if it was logistically possible, change it so that the forum comments appearing on the news pages was optional, presumably only to be excluded from knock off reporting articles. However, to avoid seeming as if discussion was not an option, there would at least still remain a link to that discussion thread should someone wish to view it.

I don't know. This seems awfully close to censorship of ideas. Who decides this? (Well, I guess Ryan. ) But, I am always hesitant to support ideas that lead to censorship. While Ryan has taken 3rd Party news off of the front page, we do still get to have these lovely discussions. Discussions are good. Maybe they get tiresome as some of the same arguments happen with pretty much the same results, but one need not participate. (Indeed, I completely got away from reading this thread for a while as things just got ridiculous.)

So, my advice to the news crew is to keep things as they are, maybe with an adjustment to the disclaimer. Then let the community discuss. You can please some of the people all of the time or all of the people some of the time, but you can't pick your friend's nose.

Wait, that's not right...

[Yotsuyasan]

So, my advice to the news crew is to keep things as they are, maybe with an adjustment to the disclaimer. Then let the community discuss. You can please some of the people all of the time or all of the people some of the time, but you can't pick your friend's nose.

Wait, that's not right...

So basically... what I said at this point I'd be satisfied in the part of my last post that you didn't quote.

While I would not be upset to see (hiding of forum comments on KO warning news articles) implemented, at this point (and after all of the discussion here) I would be content with the standardized disclaimer idea. In fact, if I had to choose between the two (should they for some reason be mutually exclusive) I'd go with the disclaimer over hiding the forum comments.

[Agamemnon]

So, my advice to the news crew is to keep things as they are, maybe with an adjustment to the disclaimer. Then let the community discuss. You can please some of the people all of the time or all of the people some of the time, but you can't pick your friend's nose.

Wait, that's not right...

So basically... what I said at this point I'd be satisfied in the part of my last post that you didn't quote.

While I would not be upset to see (hiding of forum comments on KO warning news articles) implemented, at this point (and after all of the discussion here) I would be content with the standardized disclaimer idea. In fact, if I had to choose between the two (should they for some reason be mutually exclusive) I'd go with the disclaimer over hiding the forum comments.

Hang on. I was addressing the specific desire you had to encourage censorship. That may not be what you meant, but that is the effect of such ideas. You may have expressed the idea of a "compromise" that agrees with my point of view, but that is not your preference, is it?

[Edit] To be clear, I realize that you chose disclaimer over censorship, but that was not what you had been arguing the entire time, was it?

[Yotsuyasan]

Hang on. I was addressing the specific desire you had to encourage censorship. That may not be what you meant, but that is the effect of such ideas. You may have expressed the idea of a "compromise" that agrees with my point of view, but that is not your preference, is it?

Actually, at this point I'm more partial to just a well worded, standardized disclaimer on every "KO Warning" news article. Seems like the best all around idea that will piss off the least amount of people while addressing the issue.

The "hide the comments" idea was suggested by someone else, although I did say that in a hypothetical situation where that idea was implemented, I would not be one who would be upset by it. Especially once it was clarified that the discussion thread would still exist, and at least be linked to from the news article even if it wasn't directly visible.

I don't think anyone was suggesting anything close to censorship. (At least, not anyone I would agree with.) Discussion of KOs, even in support of them, would still be there, it just wouldn't be visible from news articles where it might accidentally come off as Sibertron.com endorsed views to those who may not know better. Much like, for example, I would be against complete censorship of explicit adult materials, but I would keep them out of public areas where they may be viewable by children or by adults not wishing to see them.

Burn seemed curious about the ideas that were being bandied about, so I attempted to summarize them for him, even the ones that didn't originate with me. And that was the post you quoted. As I said, as far as I am concerned, at this point I think a disclaimer such as the one I suggested would be quite sufficient.

[Agamemnon]

Didn't you question posting of pictures and links? You seemed to like the idea of hiding comments on the news pages. While not egregious, I think these are definitely ideas along the lines of censorship. Maybe this gets into a semantic argument for you. I don't really want to go there. My point is that these ideas head down the road to censorship, and I don't like that. Just expressing my concerns for this direction of thought.

As I said, Ryan has the right to censor content. He is the site owner. But, I don't like ideas that head in that direction, and will state my opposition to them.

Add to that, I've been around here for quite some time. And I do find your initial comments out of whack from what I have actually seen and read over the years. I think the news crew has done a fine job of warning us over KOs without ever, and I mean ever in the years I've been here, supporting KOs.

I can certainly appreciate Burn and the rest of the News Crew asking for ideas on running things better. I think that is also outstanding. (It is one of the reasons I continue to frequent this site.) It just seems like this has been a lot of pages of discussion over almost a non issue. (And yet, I can't seen to let it go either. So it was still worth it...)

[Gauntlet101010]

So logistically speaking ... if the News Crew had an option to display comments or not in the news article ... that would be a good idea? (With a link to the thread should people wish to view/join in the discussion)

I'm not sure as to the reasoning behind comments displaying in the news article, I always just accepted that it was there as a way to encourage people to post and join in the community.

I think it's a good idea, given the attitude of the site towards KOs. It's not exactly a secret that Ryan's opposed to KOs and the 3rd party scene. People accused him of censorship when he banned 3rd party news on the main site, but it's not an area of the community he wants to encourage. Given that, having comments hidden by default would discourage people doing things like posting links to sites that sell these KOs or in any way advertise them. People would still be able to discuss the topic, but it wouldn't be front paged either.

I don't think that disclaimers are really enough. I remember the old KOToys boards people were saying thing along the lines of "yes, they're totally the same .... but really don't buy it, it's bad! And definitely don't go to these sites that sell them!" People already know the site's stance towards KOs. I agree that, if anything, the site should be more biased in their approach to them.

Censorship is a big gun to levy on someone's private site. There's not really any reason Ryan shouldn't be fully entitled to promote his point of view on his site. While I support 3rd party products, I don't think KOs deserve airtime any more than reporting on how to distinguish one from a legit TF.

[Burn]

It's only censorship if we prohibt discussion entirely. The only time we come close to that is religion and politics because of the volatility involved in such topics (not because of personal beliefs of the Site owner or staff)

As has been said before, this is about KO's, NOT 3rd Party products. There is no need to bring up the 3rd party discussion AGAIN.

[Yotsuyasan]

Didn't you question posting of pictures and links? You seemed to like the idea of hiding comments on the news pages. While not egregious, I think these are definitely ideas along the lines of censorship. Maybe this gets into a semantic argument for you. I don't really want to go there. My point is that these ideas head down the road to censorship, and I don't like that. Just expressing my concerns for this direction of thought.

Yes, I did question the need for links and for pictures that don't specifically highlight ways to tell the KO from the original. Then discussion occurred, and while I still might not completely see the need for some of it, I wouldn't seek the censorship of them within discussion threads. I just wish for them to be either less visible or at least clearly disclaimed against within news stories that may be linked to those discussion threads.

My views may have softened slightly since my first post in this thread... but I just hope that shows me to be a reasonable human being capable of engaging in conversation and compromising when it is important to do so. And that occurred prior to the post of yours in which you quoted me, and which I then responded to. Hence my confusion about your ignoring the part where I stated my current views.

And in any event...

It's only censorship if we prohibt discussion entirely.

...which the mods who have contributed to this thread have been clear from the beginning would not be happening, so you have no need to worry.