The Energon Pub

Size-shifting =/= mass shifting.

cyclonus11 wrote:Size-shifting =/= mass shifting.

Actually, no, it doesn't. Size changing comes in two forms: Parts compression and mass conversion. Parts compression involves simply compressing your existing mass into a smaller package by overlapping parts, sliding them together to fit into whatever space is available. Mass coversion actually changes the actual mass of the individual at the atomic level.

Tramp wrote:

cyclonus11 wrote:Size-shifting =/= mass shifting.

Actually, no, it doesn't. Size changing comes in two forms: Parts compression and mass conversion. Parts compression involves simply compressing your existing mass into a smaller package by overlapping parts, sliding them together to fit into whatever space is available. Mass coversion actually changes the actual mass of the individual at the atomic level.

I think cyclonus11 was saying that they aren't equal. I don't think he was saying size-shifting and mass shifting are the same.

This might count more as mass adding, in the game where they show bumblebee assuming the form of the Camaro, stuff started popping out o everywhere ... on his arms, doors popping out his back ...

Mass is not created nor destroyed.

These bots have a nack for doing that

They probably have the technology to defy our known physics laws and theories.

Auto Bot wrote:They probably have the technology to defy our known physics laws and theories.

Simply being who they are already defies all of our physics lkaws and theories. How many sentiant living robots do you know of that man created?

Sonray wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:They probably have the technology to defy our known physics laws and theories.

Simply being who they are already defies all of our physics lkaws and theories. How many sentiant living robots do you know of that man created?

There's no law of physics that says Robot's can't be sentient XD

That would be a law of logic or reason, laws of physics are things like gravity & forward momentum.

Justicity wrote:

Sonray wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:They probably have the technology to defy our known physics laws and theories.

Simply being who they are already defies all of our physics lkaws and theories. How many sentiant living robots do you know of that man created?

There's no law of physics that says Robot's can't be sentient XD

That would be a law of logic or reason, laws of physics are things like gravity & forward momentum.

But when we are talking about the limits of human technology, then these robots make everything we have look like its from the stoneage. Thats what i was referring to.

Besides, they do defy our laws of physics by being living orginisims that can travel through space without a craft for one thing. Crash landing on earth like a metoer and not dying is another, being 40 feet tall and weighing tons upon tons (at least in primes case) and having all the agility of an athlete is another. The list goes on and on...

Justicity wrote:

Sonray wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:They probably have the technology to defy our known physics laws and theories.

Simply being who they are already defies all of our physics lkaws and theories. How many sentiant living robots do you know of that man created?

There's no law of physics that says Robot's can't be sentient XD

That would be a law of logic or reason, laws of physics are things like gravity & forward momentum.

Good thinking. Exactly.

But sometimes, a few of our physics theories gets revised with new discoveries.

Sonray wrote:Besides, they do defy our laws of physics by being living orginisims that can travel through space without a craft for one thing. Crash landing on earth like a metoer and not dying is another, being 40 feet tall and weighing tons upon tons (at least in primes case) and having all the agility of an athlete is another. The list goes on and on...

That part is Bay's mistake. I don't know what has he got against spaceships. Bay says Transformers shouldn't be riding spaceships. He's the one who insisted there should be no spaceships or any craft for the Transformers. Really weird guy. He probably failed in physics class.

Auto Bot wrote:

Sonray wrote:Besides, they do defy our laws of physics by being living orginisims that can travel through space without a craft for one thing. Crash landing on earth like a metoer and not dying is another, being 40 feet tall and weighing tons upon tons (at least in primes case) and having all the agility of an athlete is another. The list goes on and on...

That part is Bay's mistake. I don't know what has he got against spaceships. Bay says Transformers shouldn't be riding spaceships. He's the one who insisted there should be no spaceships or any craft for the Transformers. Really weird guy. He probably failed in physics class.

Its not a "mistake" its a change to the norm, thats all. G1 purists need to get over their beloved 25 minutes toy commercials and except some change.

Robots so advanced dont need spaceships, i agree with Bay but that wasnt the conversation. The conversation was about how they defy all known human laws of physics and logic due to their super advanced technology.

The Autobots and Decepticons both had ships, they just didn't take them all the way down to Earth's surface. They kept tham in space. According to the Prequel novel, but had their star cruisers, the Ark and Nemesis, repectively. More than likely, the Decepticons left their ship on or orbiting Mars, while the Autobots probably left their on the dark side of the moon in geosyncronous orbit with it. They simply used their proptforms' re-entry modes to land on Earth. They didn't travel across the galaxy in just their re-entry modes without a starship.

Tramp wrote:The Autobots and Decepticons both had ships, they just didn't take them all the way down to Earth's surface. They kept tham in space. According to the Prequel novel, but had their star cruisers, the Ark and Nemesis, repectively. More than likely, the Decepticons left their ship on or orbiting Mars, while the Autobots probably left their on the dark side of the moon in geosyncronous orbit with it. They simply used their proptforms' re-entry modes to land on Earth. They didn't travel across the galaxy in just their re-entry modes without a starship.

I never saw any mention of a space ship in the comic...

The Ark and the Nemesis didn't feature in the comics but did feature in the prequel novel.

Sonray wrote:

Tramp wrote:The Autobots and Decepticons both had ships, they just didn't take them all the way down to Earth's surface. They kept tham in space. According to the Prequel novel, but had their star cruisers, the Ark and Nemesis, repectively. More than likely, the Decepticons left their ship on or orbiting Mars, while the Autobots probably left their on the dark side of the moon in geosyncronous orbit with it. They simply used their proptforms' re-entry modes to land on Earth. They didn't travel across the galaxy in just their re-entry modes without a starship.

I never saw any mention of a space ship in the comic...

As Leonardo put it. They appeared in the prequel novel, not the comic.

Leonardo wrote:The Ark and the Nemesis didn't feature in the comics but did feature in the prequel novel.

Oh...i didnt know there was a novel...

Sonray wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Sonray wrote:Besides, they do defy our laws of physics by being living orginisims that can travel through space without a craft for one thing. Crash landing on earth like a metoer and not dying is another, being 40 feet tall and weighing tons upon tons (at least in primes case) and having all the agility of an athlete is another. The list goes on and on...

That part is Bay's mistake. I don't know what has he got against spaceships. Bay says Transformers shouldn't be riding spaceships. He's the one who insisted there should be no spaceships or any craft for the Transformers. Really weird guy. He probably failed in physics class.

Its not a "mistake" its a change to the norm, thats all. G1 purists need to get over their beloved 25 minutes toy commercials and except some change.

Robots so advanced dont need spaceships, i agree with Bay but that wasnt the conversation. The conversation was about how they defy all known human laws of physics and logic due to their super advanced technology.

It wasn't about being a purist. I like the new robot designs. (Except the Megatron and faces of some Decepticons)

I'm not very good at dramatics or things like that. But i'm very aware of physics and scientific concepts. Physics is like second nature to me during school days. I can picture physics concepts and do computations in my head, before writing them all down. That's why i'm a bit "sensitive" to depictions in sci-fi films. I instantly felt this one to be illogical when the protoforms fell to earth. Without even thinking yet or doing any research.

It just doesn't make sense.

These are not mindless meteors that can simple crash and burn and be consumed in the atmostphere.

These are sentient beings. The more advanced they are, the more they should be aware that it is impossible and suicidal.

How is it considered suicidal when that form is DESIGNED for re-entry, and that all of the bots walked away from it without so much as bending a fender?

I know on paper, and with HUMAN technology its very dangerous, but not to a super advanced alien race. I mean hell, the thing that SHOULD have caused the most damage was the impact of hitting earth, hell Jazz even crashed through a baseball arena, but they still didnt sustain any damage. If they knew this, and if that form is specially designed for that purpose then why is it suicidal?

Sonray wrote:How is it considered suicidal when that form is DESIGNED for re-entry, and that all of the bots walked away from it without so much as bending a fender?

I know on paper, and with HUMAN technology its very dangerous, but not to a super advanced alien race. I mean hell, the thing that SHOULD have caused the most damage was the impact of hitting earth, hell Jazz even crashed through a baseball arena, but they still didnt sustain any damage. If they knew this, and if that form is specially designed for that purpose then why is it suicidal?

That's exactly my point. Very unscientific. Breaks all physical laws and knowledge.

I know it's a fiction, and we can pretty much invent anything out of thin air.

But this is sci-fi in the modern age. It should at least pretend to fit into some scientific basket.

It's simply too far off. Making it sound like kiddie fantasy stuff.

Much worse than the original G1 imaginations.

I find it hilarious that the people supporting mass shifting now after the Allspark did it,

"Parts shifting" doesn't make a lot of sense. That could just be transforming, shifting parts about. Mass shifting is called so because it's shifting the mass into a different dimension, pocket dimension, out of phase with gravity, etc. The shifting part is what implies the sending away, disappearing. Mass compression is what happens with bots that change size but not to the extent that it would cause serious problems, like for instance G1 Starscream of Bumblebee. Frnezy almost definitely mass compresses into his stereo mode(as skinny as he is, there's still no way he fits in there without some squeezing and stretching), but it's likely his head mass shifts due to the complex electronics needed for the brain of a sentient robot. The Allspark mass shifts for sure.

I've always been a big fan of the Seekers compressing their mass; so that they have a denser, thicker skin in robot mode. It gives them more reason to transform out of their jet modes, which would only be slightly more armoured than your average jet.

Auto Bot wrote:

Sonray wrote:How is it considered suicidal when that form is DESIGNED for re-entry, and that all of the bots walked away from it without so much as bending a fender?

I know on paper, and with HUMAN technology its very dangerous, but not to a super advanced alien race. I mean hell, the thing that SHOULD have caused the most damage was the impact of hitting earth, hell Jazz even crashed through a baseball arena, but they still didnt sustain any damage. If they knew this, and if that form is specially designed for that purpose then why is it suicidal?

That's exactly my point. Very unscientific. Breaks all physical laws and knowledge.

I know it's a fiction, and we can pretty much invent anything out of thin air.

But this is sci-fi in the modern age. It should at least pretend to fit into some scientific basket.

It's simply too far off. Making it sound like kiddie fantasy stuff.

Much worse than the original G1 imaginations.

Again, the simple fact that they are living robots that can transform into cars and jets pretty much throws every scientific "fact" or physics out the window. The fact that you can accept that but find it hard to accept that they can travel through space and into earths atmosphere is beyond me.

Out of all the things that are hard to beleive in the movie this is hardly one of the biggest.

They are aliens, they have super advanced technology far beyond anything humans can create or think of like an alien should. Why we cant accept this fact, and the fact that its a work of fiction, is just silly.

Spark Light wrote:I find it hilarious that the people supporting mass shifting now after the Allspark did it,

"Parts shifting" doesn't make a lot of sense. That could just be transforming, shifting parts about. Mass shifting is called so because it's shifting the mass into a different dimension, pocket dimension, out of phase with gravity, etc. The shifting part is what implies the sending away, disappearing. Mass compression is what happens with bots that change size but not to the extent that it would cause serious problems, like for instance G1 Starscream of Bumblebee. Frnezy almost definitely mass compresses into his stereo mode(as skinny as he is, there's still no way he fits in there without some squeezing and stretching), but it's likely his head mass shifts due to the complex electronics needed for the brain of a sentient robot. The Allspark mass shifts for sure.

I've always been a big fan of the Seekers compressing their mass; so that they have a denser, thicker skin in robot mode. It gives them more reason to transform out of their jet modes, which would only be slightly more armoured than your average jet.

The fact that the Allspark did it is all the more reason to support mass conversion. Yes, it is an artifiact with "god-like" power,but it shows that mass conversion can be done in live action and look cool. As fr what mass conversion is, it is not shunting the mass into some pocet dimension. It is the subatomic particles that compose the Transformer reconfiguring themselves to alter their mass and density to match the required alternate mode. That is mass conversion.

Sonray wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Sonray wrote:How is it considered suicidal when that form is DESIGNED for re-entry, and that all of the bots walked away from it without so much as bending a fender?

I know on paper, and with HUMAN technology its very dangerous, but not to a super advanced alien race. I mean hell, the thing that SHOULD have caused the most damage was the impact of hitting earth, hell Jazz even crashed through a baseball arena, but they still didnt sustain any damage. If they knew this, and if that form is specially designed for that purpose then why is it suicidal?

That's exactly my point. Very unscientific. Breaks all physical laws and knowledge.

I know it's a fiction, and we can pretty much invent anything out of thin air.

But this is sci-fi in the modern age. It should at least pretend to fit into some scientific basket.

It's simply too far off. Making it sound like kiddie fantasy stuff.

Much worse than the original G1 imaginations.

Again, the simple fact that they are living robots that can transform into cars and jets pretty much throws every scientific "fact" or physics out the window. The fact that you can accept that but find it hard to accept that they can travel through space and into earths atmosphere is beyond me.

Out of all the things that are hard to beleive in the movie this is hardly one of the biggest.

They are aliens, they have super advanced technology far beyond anything humans can create or think of like an alien should. Why we cant accept this fact, and the fact that its a work of fiction, is just silly.

I agree with you, Sonray...
The fact that the Transformers would ever exist would mean that the technology is FAR beyond human thought.
And if anyone wants to talk "reality",
well let's be honest--
if we could create a machine/robot like a Transformer,
we wouldn't be sending people into war.