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Another College Shooting! - Free Discussion

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Another College Shooting! - Free Discussion

Postby Counterpunch » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:04 am

Motto: "Everything I do is divinely sanctioned."
Weapon: Jawbreaker Cannon
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Edit by Caelus:

The following posts were split from the original topic created by Fender Bender. Counterpunch did not create this thread.

For context:

Autobot032 wrote:-_- I just cannot understand why people are doing this.

It's like it's the "in" thing to do when you're at your wit's end.

Malls, campuses, high schools, etc...when is it going to end? How is it going to end? What do we have to do to keep people safe?!


End Edit by Caelus.
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Seriously?

Stop putting it in the news.

As calus as that sounds, this type of copycat crime has to have its power of attention taken away as a first step towards prevention.
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Re: Another College Shooting at Northern Illinois!

Postby jazzrules » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:52 am

Autobot032 wrote:when is it going to end? How is it going to end? What do we have to do to keep people safe?!


Counterpunch wrote:Stop putting it in the news.

As calus as that sounds, this type of copycat crime has to have its power of attention taken away as a first step towards prevention.


CP makes a good point. Its a guaranteed way to get your name in the headlines.

The only other way would be to ban the possession of guns (and I know that that's a controversial subject due to your constitution)

Over here in the UK, the last time we had an incident like this was in 1996. It was that incident that prompted our government to ban the possession of handguns.
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Re: Another College Shooting at Northern Illinois!

Postby Counterpunch » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:30 am

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jazzrules wrote:The only other way would be to ban the possession of guns (and I know that that's a controversial subject due to your constitution)


It's not even constitutional (though that is a HUGE part of it). Weapons and firearms are culture here. This country was founded in bloody revolution. Many many people view freedom and the ability to own firearms as one in the same. The prevailing attitude is that the first step towards removing freedom is to disarm the public.

I'm not making an issue of it, but merely explaining how deep that committment by the US citizenry goes.
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Re: Another College Shooting at Northern Illinois!

Postby First Gen » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:37 am

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Counterpunch wrote:
jazzrules wrote:The only other way would be to ban the possession of guns (and I know that that's a controversial subject due to your constitution)


It's not even constitutional (though that is a HUGE part of it). Weapons and firearms are culture here. This country was founded in bloody revolution. Many many people view freedom and the ability to own firearms as one in the same. The prevailing attitude is that the first step towards removing freedom is to disarm the public.

I'm not making an issue of it, but merely explaining how deep that committment by the US citizenry goes.


I think the bottomline is no matter what measures are taken to prevent an incident, someone will find a way. Its illegal to carry handheld weaponry of any kind in Chicago, but we have an absurd homocide rate here due to those illegal weapons.

Still man. Those kids were just in class trying to get their degree in hopes of a better life. It's really hard to take.
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Re: Another College Shooting at Northern Illinois!

Postby jazzrules » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:49 am

Counterpunch wrote:
jazzrules wrote:The only other way would be to ban the possession of guns (and I know that that's a controversial subject due to your constitution)


It's not even constitutional (though that is a HUGE part of it). Weapons and firearms are culture here. This country was founded in bloody revolution. Many many people view freedom and the ability to own firearms as one in the same. The prevailing attitude is that the first step towards removing freedom is to disarm the public.

I'm not making an issue of it, but merely explaining how deep that committment by the US citizenry goes.


I understand what you're saying there CP. Perhaps the attitude is the problem then, and the best thing would be to change that attitude. Kind of like how the attitude towards wearing a seatbelt changed from one of "I don't need one" to "Only someone who wants to risk their life wouldn't wear one" (I don't know if that's the US attitude to seatbelts, but it is over here)

If anyone was going to attempt to change the attitude though, it would take a lot of effort. Our government is finding that out about trying to change the teenage knife culture that is developing.
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Re: Another College Shooting at Northern Illinois!

Postby Autobot032 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:10 am

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Counterpunch wrote:Seriously?

Stop putting it in the news.

As calus as that sounds, this type of copycat crime has to have its power of attention taken away as a first step towards prevention.


Actually, I fully agree.
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Re: Another College Shooting at Northern Illinois!

Postby Shadowman » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:29 am

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Autobot032 wrote:
Counterpunch wrote:Seriously?

Stop putting it in the news.

As calus as that sounds, this type of copycat crime has to have its power of attention taken away as a first step towards prevention.


Actually, I fully agree.


Me as well. It's only going to give nutsjobs ideas, and we don't need that.
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Re: Another College Shooting at Northern Illinois!

Postby Dr. Caelus » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:56 am

Mr. Kemp wrote:The gunman's now roasting in hell via suicide.


While I'm required to respect your religious beliefs, I'd like to remind you that some of us have known people that have committed suicide, and don't really take kindly to others condemning them to hell simply for the manner in which their terminal illness concluded.

As far as the guns, AFAIK my odds of being killed in my car, with the seatbelt on, are a lot higher than my odds of being killed by a gun, especially if I don't own one. So long as that remains true, I refuse to panic.

Of course, that's not to say that if legislation came around proposing to ban handguns specifically (any gun under a certain weight/size) I wouldn't support it.

The point of the guns' constitutional protection is to provide the people a means of defending themselves against the US military if there's a coup or something. I can't say that I think a handgun would be much help in that situation.
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Re: Another College Shooting at Northern Illinois!

Postby Moonlight » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:41 pm

Caelus wrote:
Mr. Kemp wrote:The gunman's now roasting in hell via suicide.


While I'm required to respect your religious beliefs, I'd like to remind you that some of us have known people that have committed suicide, and don't really take kindly to others condemning them to hell simply for the manner in which their terminal illness concluded.

As far as the guns, AFAIK my odds of being killed in my car, with the seat belt on, are a lot higher than my odds of being killed by a gun, especially if I don't own one. So long as that remains true, I refuse to panic.

Of course, that's not to say that if legislation came around proposing to ban handguns specifically (any gun under a certain weight/size) I wouldn't support it.

The point of the guns' constitutional protection is to provide the people a means of defending themselves against the US military if there's a coup or something. I can't say that I think a handgun would be much help in that situation.


Hopefully he meant that the person was in hell because murdering innocent kids rather then the way he died.

If handguns were outlawed the only people who would not have guns were the honest law abiding citizens. The criminals would keep their illegal guns.
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Re: Another College Shooting at Northern Illinois!

Postby Dr. Caelus » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:49 pm

Missourisnowflakes wrote:If handguns were outlawed the only people who would not have guns were the honest law abiding citizens.


And yet, when was the last time that a group of honest law abiding citizens actually defended themselves with those guns they supposedly carry concealed everywhere they go? If that philosophy actually worked, why did this latest shooting 'succeed'? Why have all the others succeeded? Why do so many carjackings, muggings, and home-invasions succeed?

And has there actually been a significant decrease in violent crimes in Missouri since conceal and carry was passed? Lots of talk about it as a deterrent at the time, but since then, haven't really heard much about it.

Did some snooping - now IIRC, C&C was passed in 2002-2003. The immediate result was exactly what they claimed it would be - the violent crime rate dropped from 539 crimes per 100,000 people to 490.8 crimes per 100,000 people (almost as low as it was in the year 2000). Huzzah, it worked!

But wait... what has happened since 2003? As of 2006, the violent crime rate has risen to 545.6 crimes per 100,000 people, the highest it has been since 1998.

Similarly, murder rates dropped from 5.8 per 100,000 in 2002 to 5.1 per 100,000 in 2003, then rose to 6.3 per 100,000 by 2006.

In light of those numbers, how exactly can we claim that C&C has done anything of lasting benefit?



The criminals would keep their illegal guns.


Some criminals would keep their guns illegally. Some. And some of those criminals would get busted for possession before getting a chance to use them.



But honestly, I'm less concerned with the use of handguns in bank-robberies and school-shootings than I am with their use in domestic violence and suicide, where the heuristic schemes tied to the weapons presence increase aggression in human beings, and their ready availability transforms contemplation into action.

Because of the way the human mind is constructed, and the thoughts we associate specifically with handguns, the gun's trigger, at least metaphorically, tugs the owner's finger. Turning a cranky or slightly disturbed person into a murderer in a single moment of idiotic spontaneity. That's ashame both for the victim and the killer.
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Re: Another College Shooting at Northern Illinois!

Postby Pyrostrata » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:51 pm

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Making firearms illegal does not, under ANY circumstances, make them unattainable! And that is really the crux of the issue, these kids go into psychotic break and they want their "five seconds of fame" shortly before they die. Most wish for suicide-by-cop, but sometimes it takes too long for law enforcement to arrive before their little psychotic episode runs it's course.

Truly sad that these things happen, but there are many reasons they do...and will continue!
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Re: Another College Shooting at Northern Illinois!

Postby Dr. Caelus » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:20 pm

Pyrostrata wrote:Making firearms illegal does not, under ANY circumstances, make them unattainable!


The point of making anything illegal isn't to make the crime an impossibility, it's to deter people from committing the crime by making it difficult or risky. Murder for example, is relatively easy to commit (probably easier than obtaining a black market weapon), but most people resist the urge to kill the people that annoy them, because the action carries serious consequences.

Seriously, compare the usage of legal versus illegal drugs.

I could go out to Walmart right now and casually buy myself some booze or tobacco... but I have no idea how to score something illegal like cocaine.

I'm sure I could if I wanted to badly enough and actually had the money to afford it, but it would be more trouble than it's worth, and I'd probably get caught in the process. Essentially, the challenge and risk would be sufficient deterrent in and of itself.

And the same would roughly be true of firearms. Criminal masterminds aren't exactly plentiful, and unless you're preparing to execute a premeditated crime that has a pay off sufficient to offset the trouble you go through getting the weapon, you probably aren't going to have a gun onhand for the hell of it. And eliminating a large percentage of casual gunowners from the equation, goes a long way to reducing spontaneous crimes of opportunity.

So, saying that we shouldn't illegalize handguns on the premise that highly motivated individuals would still be able to get them, is pretty much implying that we shouldn't bother with laws at all, as any law can potentially be broken.
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Re: Another College Shooting at Northern Illinois!

Postby Blast Cannon » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:26 pm

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What? Another shooting in a country which legalises firearms for its citizens? Un-be-lievable.
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Re: Another College Shooting at Northern Illinois!

Postby Mr. Kemp » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:29 pm

Caelus: Missourisnowflakes is correct in his interpretation; I wasn't trying to say that the gunman is in Hell because of the suicide; it doesn't matter how he died, he's still in Hell for the deaths of those innocent students. Perhaps I should have worded that one a little differently. :oops:

The posters who have been against taking weapons away (Missourisnowflakes among them) have an excellent point. The police can't be everywhere at once, and if someone is looking to shoot up a room full of innocents for the hell of it, as the gunman did, then he'll do everything in his power to obtain a gun, illegal or no.

My solution would be to allow the would-be victims to carry their own weapons. This way, the next time a rampaging gunman bursts into a classroom, he (or she, for the politically correct) is turned into hamburger.
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Re: Another College Shooting at Northern Illinois!

Postby Blast Cannon » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:33 pm

Motto: ""Life is all about risks and it requires you to jump. Don't be a person who has to look back and wonder what they would have or could have had. No one lives forever.""
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Mr. Kemp wrote:My solution would be to allow the would-be victims to carry their own weapons. This way, the next time a rampaging gunman bursts into a classroom, he (or she, for the politically correct) is turned into hamburger.


:APPLAUSE: :APPLAUSE: :APPLAUSE: :APPLAUSE: :APPLAUSE:

Yes, what a grand idea! Instead of taking guns away from just about everybody in society, let's just give the potential victims potential to become murderers themselves.

That'll solve the problem!

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Re: Another College Shooting! - Free Discussion

Postby Dr. Caelus » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:20 pm

Well it took forever but this finally has its own thread so that the matter can be discussed openly without accusations of insensitivity and moral depravity.
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Re: Another College Shooting! - Free Discussion

Postby GetterDragun » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:50 pm

I've come to lose all faith in the news media. It either celebrity or tragedy now and nothing of substance. I don't understand why steroids in sports or something about a celbrity gets way more airtime than situations like the war in Iraq or civil wars in other coutries.

And with CounterPunch's point, I'm 50/50 on. It's a real tradgedy that actually does deserve the news time. But in this day and age I think people really are mental enough to keep copying this.

Not for nothing. This is why I'm against alot of stuff on the Internet. How many of these freaks have blogs that thousands of people read? Then it turns these demented people into "anonymous" celebrities until they do something to really harm people.
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Re: Another College Shooting! - Free Discussion

Postby Counterpunch » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:04 pm

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For the record, I didn't start this thread.
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Re: Another College Shooting! - Free Discussion

Postby GetterDragun » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:16 pm

Counterpunch wrote:For the record, I didn't start this thread.


Really? How'd that happen? Were you replying to a topic, I can merge it for you.

I guess we should also reopen Philosopher's Forum as well. Everyone has been civil in the last few "Political" threads.
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Re: Another College Shooting! - Free Discussion

Postby Dr. Caelus » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:02 pm

GetterDragun wrote:
Counterpunch wrote:For the record, I didn't start this thread.


Really? How'd that happen? Were you replying to a topic, I can merge it for you.

I guess we should also reopen Philosopher's Forum as well. Everyone has been civil in the last few "Political" threads.


I split the thread in response to complaints about us discussing the issues in the original thread about the shooting.

Didn't occur to me that Counterpunch would object, though I suppose it should have.

Would be nice if we had the means to insert posts, so that we could add an explanatory beginning to threads we create that way via splitting.
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Re: Another College Shooting! - Free Discussion

Postby Counterpunch » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:14 pm

Motto: "Everything I do is divinely sanctioned."
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Caelus wrote:
GetterDragun wrote:
Counterpunch wrote:For the record, I didn't start this thread.


Really? How'd that happen? Were you replying to a topic, I can merge it for you.

I guess we should also reopen Philosopher's Forum as well. Everyone has been civil in the last few "Political" threads.


I split the thread in response to complaints about us discussing the issues in the original thread about the shooting.

Didn't occur to me that Counterpunch would object, though I suppose it should have.

Would be nice if we had the means to insert posts, so that we could add an explanatory beginning to threads we create that way via splitting.


I wasn't objecting or trying to be difficult in anyway. That wasn't my intention.

I just don't like getting too heavily into serious threads, so I wanted to just state that I hadn't instigated or made a thoughtless statement to start a thread.

CP is 100% about internet p0rn and only 1% about internet seriousness.
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Re: Another College Shooting! - Free Discussion

Postby DesalationReborn » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:45 pm

GetterDragun wrote:
Counterpunch wrote:For the record, I didn't start this thread.


Really? How'd that happen? Were you replying to a topic, I can merge it for you.

I guess we should also reopen Philosopher's Forum as well. Everyone has been civil in the last few "Political" threads.


That would be awesome, though I think it may require a few more smalltime mods to keep a 24/7 look at things to make sure no wars result. If we got it back, then you'd see me posting more than once or twice a week, but, if we lost it again, I might just have to quit.

As said to the topic at hand, as much as I would like a world free from violence, guns are too ingrained in American culture to really ever remove, and, frankly, I still can see the point from a popular revolution standpoint. They're that serrated teddy bear that allows people to feel comfortable about our federal government. We are based on the republican ideal, after all. The culture believes in citizen responsibility, whether true or not.

To sum up two hundred year of American culture by the words of Thomas Jefferson...

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."


As well, as on the usefulness of guns, though oft never reported, I know a few cases where they've come in handy for civilian defense. A member of my family used a shotgun during a break-in of his house on the Chicago south side, and, in cases of small run-in shops like 7-11's, the threat of getting your head blown off is just about the only thing keeping robbers at bay. I've seen enough police tapes of that. Firearms are fairly easy to get here, and, with the supplies we have, any immediate ban would automatically give advantage to those moving against the law. Everything big needs time.
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Re: Another College Shooting! - Free Discussion

Postby Professor Smooth » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:59 am

I've been in the room that this massacre happened in. The best way to describe it to someone who's never been in a lecture hall is as a combination between a movie theater and a classroom. The floor slopes downwards towards the stage.

Now, imagine you're in this classroom and you've got a handgun for personal defense. For the sake of argument, let's put you in the center of the room.

This guy throws open the door and starts unloading with a combination of shotgun shells and handgun bullets. Now you are about 200 feet away from the shooter and you've got around 100 people running in your direction towards the door.

How likely is it that you're going to be able to hit the shooter? Contrast that with how likely you are to hit one of your fellow classmates. Unless you have an incredible amount of training, you are probably going to make the situation worse, not better.

Also, somebody mentioned turning the shooter into hamburger. I think that person is (even if you ignore the scenario above) forgetting that this was not a robbery or an attack on a certain person. This was not a situation where the shooter wanted to escape. He wanted to die. He turned himself into hamburger. He was just a regular college student who went crazy when he went off his meds. This is not the MO of a person who is going to go through the trouble of obtaining three pistols and a shotgun illegally. He bought all four guns at a local shoppe and he bought some of the parts online (from the same online shop as the Virginia Tech shooter shopped at, btw). Chances are, if he couldn't have gotten the guns so easily, the worst that would have happened would have been a lonely suicide. Which, I should point out, would still have been a sad story.

Making guns illegal in certain states and cities does nothing to stop the flow of them from other places within the country where they are legal. In order for any ban to be effective, it has to be nationwide. A ban on the ownership, sale, use, and PRODUCTION of guns and ammunition in the country is about the only thing I can think of. For awhile, yes, the only people who would have guns would be criminals. However, as the number of guns available is depleted (through confiscation and subsequent destruction) and the amount of ammunition runs out (through the same means as well as through its use) you'll see a much lower number of these kinds of incidents.

Look at England. They banned guns and gun crime has dropped dramatically. Look at Japan. No guns, no school shootings. Extremely low violent crime rate.

Will guns be banned in the US? Probably not in my lifetime. I recognize that. I just wish that people would stop trying to put the blame on things like movies, video games, and other incidental parts of the shooters' lives while giving guns a free pass. If guns aren't even a factor in shootings, as these people claim, then video games, movies, etc certainly aren't.

There are two questions that have refused to leave the front of my mind since Friday.

The people of the United States have shown, time and again, that they are willing to give up their freedoms in the name of safety. Why is gun ownership the one right that's worth more lives every year than the US have lost in the Iraq war over the last five?

Why is it acceptable that you have a better chance of getting shot and killed by somebody you don't know than winning a lottery jackpot?
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Re: Another College Shooting! - Free Discussion

Postby Blast Cannon » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:40 am

Motto: ""Life is all about risks and it requires you to jump. Don't be a person who has to look back and wonder what they would have or could have had. No one lives forever.""
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I do not accept this, quite frankly, cop out philosophy, which many people have regarding American gun control, that taking away the guns won't work because the right of legalised firearms is too deeply ingrained in American society.

American culture from its inception has been based on the philosophies of John Locke who, on a rudimentary level, believed in a person's natural right to be defended. Thomas Jefferson and the rest of the Founding Fathers were all students of Locke's philosophy, that it was the state's responsibility to defend it's citizens. When that contract is broken, it is up to the individual to defend themselves. I like to think that American society has developed and evolved since the eighteenth century. The philosophy of Locke and the Founding Fathers by proxy simply is not compatible with modern society.

Citizen responsibility can only go so far, in a nation born of republicanism or not. Besides, in my view, the state is failing in its contract to protect citizens by allowing, and in many ways endorsing, fatal firearms to be sold legally to potential murderers and robbers. By removing the firearms from the criminals, you are removing the need for 'victims' to have firearms as means of defence.

I do agree with DesalationReborn's assessment that any immediate withdrawal of firearms would be to the detriment of society. But I do believe that a sensible 'phasing out' period, with the concerted efforts of both citizens and law enforcement, would be successful.
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Re: Another College Shooting! - Free Discussion

Postby Dr. Caelus » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:27 pm

Something else you have to consider is that it will be impossible to ban ordinary rifles and shotguns in the US. In the Midwest anyway, hunting is a huge part of the culture. People take their kids out of school for the first day of deer season, turkey season, etc. So the best you could manage is to ban pistols and military class weapons.

Personally, I'd be happy if we could just get a ban on handguns. You can't use them hunting, they'd be of minimal value in a revolution, and a shotgun is much better for home defense (much more intimidating). The only things they seem to be good for is suicide and killing unarmed people. Add to that they can be hidden much more easily than a shotgun, hunting rifle, or M-16, and you have the weapon of choice for the unhinged.



Blastcannon wrote:I like to think that American society has developed and evolved since the eighteenth century.


It has developed, but that doesn't necessarily mean the citizens of our country have any more faith and trust in their country than before. The sixties undid a lot of the optimism forged by WWI and WWII, and since then our view of government has remained cynical and untrusting.



Professor Smooth wrote:The people of the United States have shown, time and again, that they are willing to give up their freedoms in the name of safety. Why is gun ownership the one right that's worth more lives every year than the US have lost in the Iraq war over the last five?


Well, first of all, some of the freedoms we have given up in the past 7 years haven't been favored by a large portion of the American people.

That said, it is only logical that guns should be the last freedom to go. Since our country's birth, the government and the people have been perpetually haggling. The government offers its protection in someway at the low price of some freedoms or rights. The people negotiate them down to just one or two freedoms, and a deal is struck. The popular thought though, is that if the people weren't packing heat, the government would have no reason to negotiate and would simply take the rights and freedoms away as it sees fit.

Given that perspective, right to bare arms should only be given up when the American people have no rights left to defend.

And of course, you can say, 'look at all these European countries, they're okay', but that's not a very effective argument.

First of all, a lot of Americans, especially those you're trying to disarm, have no desire to be like France or the UK, and therefore will reject the idea out of hand.

Second of all, and here's the big thing most people seem to forget, is we're a lot bigger than them.



Without guns, an American's defense against his own government is pretty much just his voice.

His first voice is that which he carries in elections and other votes. Unfortunately, our massive population means that an individual's vote counts for less than it does in the UK. That wouldn't be so bad, because if he can't find people to vote with him, then he shouldn't win his side of the argument, but our country has an exceptional amount of geographic and cultural diversity in it.

California is a great metaphor for this conflict actually. There was a clash between the Northern and Southern halves a few years ago - for those overseas who don't know, SoCal is generally controlled by an urban population and Northern California is generally controlled by a agrarian population. Essentially, SoCalifornians, faced with extremely limited fresh water resources, came up with the idea that they should draw water from Northern California, so that they could go back to watering their lawns. Northern Californians of course got very upset - they needed the water they had to keep their vineyards growing. So in the end, you had a large number of voters (by virtue of urban density) motivated by a desire for personal comfort, versus a small number of voters motivated by a desire to sustain their livelihood.

These situations, and the one that came up in Florida several years ago, generally mean that Americans have very little trust in Democracy. The common man supports it as the best available option, but still regards it almost as much as an enemy as an ally, for it is certainly a fickle lover.

And of course, the second voice an American citizen has is in the form of Free Speech - protesting, writing letters, running campaigns, etc. Unfortunately, to do anything more than write a letter to your congressman (which in a country our size, where each congressman is receiving thousands of letters about different problems every day, doesn't do much) requires $$$ and probably some degree of education. To organize a group that will have any sort of political influence, you need access to mass media. Standing in the middle of Hayes, Kansas, or even Manhattan, with a homemade banner doesn't get you anywhere. (Thankfully, the internet may be ammending this gap. In fact, the success of Barak Obama so far may be the first tangible evidence that the internet is giving a voice to the traditionally uninfluential.)

Anyway, my point is, that because of our country's size, and the disparity of wealth, the average American doesn't think much of his ability to influence the course of events, and so, many of them figure their only real option is to be prepared to protect their homes when the evil empire comes for their women.

Of course, the irony here is, obviously if all of these guys speak at once they do have a voice, otherwise guns would be illegal already, right? Well, it helps that the progun lobby has wealthy individuals like Charleton Heston, and the companies that make the weapons backing them.



And finally, I'd like to remind people that our Right to Bear Arms isn't just in the Constitution, it's in the Bill of Rights, the first ten ammendments to our Constitution. It's right there along with Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion. And I believe the generally belief is that an attack on any one of those freedoms is a threat to all of those freedoms.

The Bill of Rights is just something you don't touch - removing the Right to Bear Arms altogether would, as far as many Americans are concerned, open the door to people who would like to remove Freedom of Religion (and those people are out there).



Oh, and one more addition - because of our size, the pervasive feeling that one picks up from American pop-culture (movies especially) is that 'the military' is always several hours away, assuming you can convince them to come and save you in the first place. Some people then probably believe that their guns are necessary for them to temporarily hold out against the enemy if their small town is ever beset by bikers, terrorists, communists, prehistoric monsters, or aliens.



Oh, and of course, their is also a VERY large number of people who simply like guns. They admire the craftsmanship, the feel of the recoil, the sound of the shot, etc. Just as some people like cars or swords and knives - both of which are legitimate hobbies that have as much reason to be done away with as firearms. Well, the cars anyway.
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