The Energon Pub

News Credits: 2 · by **F Prime** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:39 pm

deathy wrote:ONE CAN IMAGINE ANYTHING HAPPENED

That is certainly true and I won't tell anyone what to believe, but to me this reasoning doesn't make all explanations plausible. For instance, although not specifically ruled out I am not going to posit that fairies created the dinobots.

by **dinogeist** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:43 pm

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
deathy wrote:

Technically optimus was never shown to have the matrix in season one & 2 of the G-1 cartoon. most assumed he did because he had it in the 1986 animated movie.

Actually most assumed he did because of the dialog in "5 faces of darkness"

DEATHY REPLIES: The writters for the animated G-1 cartoon first wrote the matrix in the 1986 animated movie. that FFOD Was a season 3 1986 episode,even though it was a flash back,it was spinning of the matrix being writeen in the 1986 movie. their was no matric written into the 1984-1985 G-1 cartoon episodes.

the dialog suggest he was given the Matrix by Alpha Trion when he was repaired by him.

DEATHY replies: it was a season 3 episode that was released in 1986,way after the ainmated movie came out.

my guess is the matrix didn't exist in the 1984-1985 G-1 cartoon until it was written in the 1986 animated movie.

Your guess wouldnt be correct.

DEATHY replies: how would it be INCORRECT,when I just stated everything above in this reply.
Lets not actually enter the TF universe,lets view it from a writters pen & paper ordeal.

As stated, the dialog in "5 faces of darkness" confirms that the matrix existed for millions of years.

from a production standpoint,the idea for the matrix originated in the comics with the creation matrix.

DEATHY replies;This I know, as I own all the marvel comics issues #1 thru #80. i'm not a newbie I'm a veteran fan.

But there were plans to introduce the matrix into the cartoon early in season 2....but those plans were dropped.

DEATHY replies: Since it didn't happen,then it doesn't exist.

And early draft of the episode "Cosmic rust" was even planning on mentioning a date for when the matrix was found.But again, it was dropped in favor of the films production.

deathy REPLIES: sorry for the weird reply format. I'm still trying to figure out the quote replies stuff.

DEATHY replie: since it never happened it doesn't exist.

the matrix was first written into the 1986 movie. then the matrix was first shown in the cartoon in season 3 episodes.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:45 pm

F Prime wrote:I am sure someone will make up another explanation, but why did Op need to get the personalities for Silverbolt et al from Vector Sigma if the matrix would suffice?

Your mistake is in saying/thinking/assuming Optimus NEEDED vector sigma to give them personalities.

That was never said.

What was said was that [b]MEGATRON[/b] had no way of giving his car group cybernetic personalities with out Vector Sigma.

When Optimus followed suit they were already there with VG and why not use it?

so please try to avoid telling me I am "wrong".)

I hope that not what I just did :-(

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:50 pm

dp

by **dinogeist** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:51 pm

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
F Prime wrote:I am sure someone will make up another explanation, but why did Op need to get the personalities for Silverbolt et al from Vector Sigma if the matrix would suffice?

Your mistake is in saying/thinking/assuming Optimus NEEDED vector sigma to give them personalities.

That was never said.

What was said was that [b]MEGATRON[/b] had no way of giving his car group cybernetic personalities with out Vector Sigma.

When Optimus followed suit they were already there with VG and why not use it?

so please try to avoid telling me I am "wrong".)

I hope that not what I just did

STUFF happens off screen,this isn't the jim carey "truman show" movie.

most assume the aerailbots,defensor,metroplex,trypticon got sparks because they had persona. they weren't drones because drones are de-void of persona,free will & have no ambition nor goals.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:59 pm

deathy wrote:DEATHY replie: since it never happened it doesn't exist.

Some of what I mentioned did indeed happen.

the matrix was first written into the 1986 movie. then the matrix was first shown in the cartoon in season 3 episodes.

and in that season 3 episode the dialog indicates Optimus was given the matrix 9 million years ago.

So wether or not we saw it in seasons one or 2 is irrelevant.

deathy wrote:STUFF happens off screen,this isn't the jim carey "truman show" movie.

that wasnt even an issue in the conversation we were just having

most assume the aerailbots,defensor,metroplex,trypticon got sparks because they had persona.

that made no sense.

sparks are personas

by **dinogeist** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:17 pm

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
deathy wrote:DEATHY replie: since it never happened it doesn't exist.

Some of what I mentioned did indeed happen.
the matrix was first written into the 1986 movie. then the matrix was first shown in the cartoon in season 3 episodes.

and in that season 3 episode the dialog indicates Optimus was given the matrix 9 million years ago.

So wether or not we saw it in seasons one or 2 is irrelevant.
deathy wrote:STUFF happens off screen,this isn't the jim carey "truman show" movie.

that wasnt even an issue in the conversation we were just having
most assume the aerailbots,defensor,metroplex,trypticon got sparks because they had persona.

that made no sense.

sparks are personas

FIRST OFF: everything I write in this thread via my replies. "IS MEANT TO BE FROM A VIEWERS POINT OF VIEW AS THEY WATCH THE CARTOON/MOVIE IN ORDER OF APPEARANCE.

IT APPEARS SOME MIGHT VIEW THIS THREAD AS A FANTASY ROLE PLAY & ACTUALLY ENTER/SUB-MERGE INTO THE CARTOON/MOVIE. MAKING BELIEVE THE WRITTERS & ANIMATORS DON'T EXIST. THUS HAVING IT BE AS REAL AS POSSIBLE FOR THEM.

I AM VIEWEING EVERYTHING FROM A WRITTER'S PEN,PAPER & ANIMATION STUDIO STAND POINT.

Flashbacks that happened in the 1986 season 3 TF G-1 episodes were written in the stories for season 3.

G-1 TF cartoon viewers never saw nor heard of the matric of leadership in the 1984 thru 1985 episodes.

The season one/1985 & season 2/1985 Writters/animators never worte/animated the matrix into any season one nor season 2 episodes.

FLASHBACKS DON'T COUNT TOWARDS SEASON ONE & TWO CANON WHEN THEIR WRITTEN/ANIMATED IN 1986/SEASON 3.

The matrix of leadership was first written/animated into animated universe in the 1986 movie & then was shown in the season 3 cartoon afterwards.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:25 pm

deathy wrote:
Flashbacks that happened in the 1986 season 3 TF G-1 episodes were written in the stories for season 3.

and that makes them offical parts of the story.

G-1 TF cartoon viewers never saw nor heard of the matric of leadership in the 1984 thru 1985 episodes.

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

The season one/1985

1984

& season 2/1985 Writters/animators never worte/animated the matrix into any season one nor season 2 episodes.

As I pointed out it was written but dropped.

Your trying to switch from whats canon and production point of views.

From a canon point, we never saw the matrix in seasons 1&2 but season 3 eatablish's it was there any way.

From a production point of view, the writers did indeed write the matrix into at least 1 story, but the excts decided to drop it in favor of the "big reveal" for vthe film.

FLASHBACKS DON'T COUNT TOWARDS SEASON ONE & TWO CANON WHEN THEIR WRITTEN/ANIMATED IN 1986/SEASON 3.

that do canon whise.

The matrix of leadership was first written/animated into animated universe in the 1986 movie & then was shown in the season 3 cartoon afterwards.

no, it was first revealed/shown/animated in the film

but it was written in season 2

News Credits: 2 · by **F Prime** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:30 pm

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
F Prime wrote:I am sure someone will make up another explanation, but why did Op need to get the personalities for Silverbolt et al from Vector Sigma if the matrix would suffice?

Your mistake is in saying/thinking/assuming Optimus NEEDED vector sigma to give them personalities.

That was never said.

What was said was that [b]MEGATRON[/b] had no way of giving his car group cybernetic personalities with out Vector Sigma.

When Optimus followed suit they were already there with VG and why not use it?

so please try to avoid telling me I am "wrong".)

I hope that not what I just did

Not at all! You gave a great possible reason for them heading to Cybertron and using VS. And maybe both the matrix and VS can endow sparks, but VS is better at it? Both plausible.

Personally, I don't think the writers of the cartoon intended to have their matrix give sparks and I don't see any evidence that they did, but that is just my opinion. I certainly have no proof.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:33 pm

F Prime wrote:=;
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
F Prime wrote:I am sure someone will make up another explanation, but why did Op need to get the personalities for Silverbolt et al from Vector Sigma if the matrix would suffice?

Your mistake is in saying/thinking/assuming Optimus NEEDED vector sigma to give them personalities.

That was never said.

What was said was that [b]MEGATRON[/b] had no way of giving his car group cybernetic personalities with out Vector Sigma.

When Optimus followed suit they were already there with VG and why not use it?

so please try to avoid telling me I am "wrong".)

I hope that not what I just did

Not at all! You gave a great possible reason for them heading to Cybertron and using VS. And maybe both the matrix and VS can endow sparks, but VS is better at it? Both plausible.

Personally, I don't think the writers of the cartoon intended to have their matrix give sparks and I don't see any evidence that they did, but that is just my opinion. I certainly have no proof.

thanks

and I dont see any evidence in the toon that the matrix could give sparks either, but theres none saying it couldnt either

by **dinogeist** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:47 pm

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
deathy wrote:
Flashbacks that happened in the 1986 season 3 TF G-1 episodes were written in the stories for season 3.

and that makes them offical parts of the story.
G-1 TF cartoon viewers never saw nor heard of the matric of leadership in the 1984 thru 1985 episodes.

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
The season one/1985
1984

& season 2/1985 Writters/animators never worte/animated the matrix into any season one nor season 2 episodes.

As I pointed out it was written but dropped.

Your trying to switch from whats canon and production point of views.

From a canon point, we never saw the matrix in seasons 1&2 but season 3 eatablish's it was there any way.

From a production point of view, the writers did indeed write the matrix into at least 1 story, but the excts decided to drop it in favor of the "big reveal" for vthe film.

FLASHBACKS DON'T COUNT TOWARDS SEASON ONE & TWO CANON WHEN THEIR WRITTEN/ANIMATED IN 1986/SEASON 3.

that do canon whise.

The matrix of leadership was first written/animated into animated universe in the 1986 movie & then was shown in the season 3 cartoon afterwards.

no, it was first revealed/shown/animated in the film

but it was written in season 2

Where both looking at this thread from 2 different "Radio wave lengths".

FM RADIO WAVE LENGT:
looking at the situation from a behind the scenes/viewers point of view. acknowledging that the cartoon/movie is fake,fictional & written by writters & animated by a animation studio.

AM RADIO WAVE LENGHT:
Entering the TF cartoon/movie Uinverse as a ROLE PLAY SITUTATION. ENTERING/SUB-MERGING into the cartoon/movie. making believe it's as real as possible. ignoring that their are writters & animaters working behind the scenes to create everything.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:56 pm

deathy wrote:Where both looking at this thread from 2 different "Radio wave lengths".

Agreed, but even in that your confusing wave lengths.

I'll explain....

FM RADIO WAVE LENGT:
looking at the situation from a behind the scenes/viewers point of view. acknowledging that the cartoon/movie is fake,fictional & written by writters & animated by a animation studio.

behind the scenes and the viewers point of view are 2 different things.

from a "behind the scenes" point of view,the matrix existed trew out season 2 because the film and season 2 were produced at the same time, and season 2 writers did plan to introduce it

from "the viewers" point of view , the matrix did not exist

Nice way of putting it BTW

by **dinogeist** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:05 pm

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
deathy wrote:Where both looking at this thread from 2 different "Radio wave lengths".

Agreed, but even in that your confusing wave lengths.

I'll explain....

FM RADIO WAVE LENGT:
looking at the situation from a behind the scenes/viewers point of view. acknowledging that the cartoon/movie is fake,fictional & written by writters & animated by a animation studio.

behind the scenes and the viewers point of view are 2 different things.

from a "behind the scenes" point of view,the matrix existed trew out season 2 because the film and season 2 were produced at the same time, and season 2 writers did plan to introduce it

from "the viewers" point of view , the matrix did not exist

Nice way of putting it BTW

behind the scenes doesn't mean what you think it does.

Behind the scenes,on most DVD Special features. usually refers to what goes on behind the scenes. usually the making of the cartoon/movie/whatever. sometimes showing video cameras & actors/actors setting up for scenes,making mistakes & goofing off.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:08 pm

deathy wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
deathy wrote:Where both looking at this thread from 2 different "Radio wave lengths".

Agreed, but even in that your confusing wave lengths.

I'll explain....

FM RADIO WAVE LENGT:
looking at the situation from a behind the scenes/viewers point of view. acknowledging that the cartoon/movie is fake,fictional & written by writters & animated by a animation studio.

behind the scenes and the viewers point of view are 2 different things.

from a "behind the scenes" point of view,the matrix existed trew out season 2 because the film and season 2 were produced at the same time, and season 2 writers did plan to introduce it

from "the viewers" point of view , the matrix did not exist

Nice way of putting it BTW

behind the scenes doesn't mean what you think it does.

Behind the scenes,on most DVD Special features. usually refers to what goes on behind the scenes. usually the making of the cartoon/movie/whatever. sometimes showing video cameras & actors/actors setting up for scenes,making mistakes & goofing off.

which all breaks down to "production materials" or a production point of view.

and from that point of view the matrix existed durring the production of season 2.

by **dinogeist** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:22 pm

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
deathy wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
deathy wrote:Where both looking at this thread from 2 different "Radio wave lengths".

Agreed, but even in that your confusing wave lengths.

I'll explain....

FM RADIO WAVE LENGT:
looking at the situation from a behind the scenes/viewers point of view. acknowledging that the cartoon/movie is fake,fictional & written by writters & animated by a animation studio.

behind the scenes and the viewers point of view are 2 different things.

from a "behind the scenes" point of view,the matrix existed trew out season 2 because the film and season 2 were produced at the same time, and season 2 writers did plan to introduce it

from "the viewers" point of view , the matrix did not exist

Nice way of putting it BTW

behind the scenes doesn't mean what you think it does.

Behind the scenes,on most DVD Special features. usually refers to what goes on behind the scenes. usually the making of the cartoon/movie/whatever. sometimes showing video cameras & actors/actors setting up for scenes,making mistakes & goofing off.

which all breaks down to "production materials" or a production point of view.

and from that point of view the matrix existed durring the production of season 2.

No,it wasn't written in nor animated in G-1 TF seasons one & 2 therefore it doesn't exist as viewers didn't see it.

Stuff that happens in those DVD behind the scenes features don't count towards the movie/cartoon/whatever canon because it's either stuff that didn't make the got/got deleted or is extra footage or silly outakes meant to be bonus features to make it worthwhile spending money on the DVD.

i'm done replying in this thread.

I don't know if your playing around or serious with your replies towards me.

but i've wasted as much time as i'm willing to waste in a singular thread.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:49 pm

deathy wrote:No,it wasn't written in nor animated in G-1 TF seasons one & 2 therefore it doesn't exist as viewers didn't see it.

You continue to confuse a viewers point of view with what was cwritten

the writers point of view is a production point of view, the viewers point of view is what was seen heard.

As I have already said,

The writers did indeed write the matrix into at least 1 episode of season 2.It was planned for several season 2 episodes.

It was dropped in favor of revealing it in the film.

So yes, "FROM A PRODUCTION POINT OF VIEW" the matrix exsisted durring season 2.

i'm done replying in this thread.

I don't know if your playing around or serious with your replies towards me.

but i've wasted as much time as i'm willing to waste in a singular thread.

I'm very serious, you just continue to confuse the issues.On one hand you say it wasnt written, on the other you say its not canon.

These are 2 separate things.

Sorry you feel you wasted your time, but if you had taken the time to read my post more carefully there would have been no need to drag this out so long.

in short, the writers wrote the matrix into season 2, the idea was dropped in favor of a big reveal for the film

so the viewer didnt see/hear about it

by **dinogeist** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:58 pm

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
deathy wrote:No,it wasn't written in nor animated in G-1 TF seasons one & 2 therefore it doesn't exist as viewers didn't see it.

You continue to confuse a viewers point of view with what was cwritten

the writers point of view is a production point of view, the viewers point of view is what was seen heard.

As I have already said,

The writers did indeed write the matrix into at least 1 episode of season 2.It was planned for several season 2 episodes.

It was dropped in favor of revealing it in the film.

So yes, "FROM A PRODUCTION POINT OF VIEW" the matrix exsisted durring season 2.
i'm done replying in this thread.

I don't know if your playing around or serious with your replies towards me.

but i've wasted as much time as i'm willing to waste in a singular thread.

I'm very serious, you just continue to confuse the issues.On one hand you say it wasnt written, on the other you say its not canon.

These are 2 separate things.

Sorry you feel you wasted your time, but if you had taken the time to read my post more carefully there would have been no need to drag this out so long.

by **dinogeist** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:59 pm

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
deathy wrote:No,it wasn't written in nor animated in G-1 TF seasons one & 2 therefore it doesn't exist as viewers didn't see it.

You continue to confuse a viewers point of view with what was cwritten

the writers point of view is a production point of view, the viewers point of view is what was seen heard.

As I have already said,

The writers did indeed write the matrix into at least 1 episode of season 2.It was planned for several season 2 episodes.

It was dropped in favor of revealing it in the film.

So yes, "FROM A PRODUCTION POINT OF VIEW" the matrix exsisted durring season 2.
i'm done replying in this thread.

I don't know if your playing around or serious with your replies towards me.

but i've wasted as much time as i'm willing to waste in a singular thread.

I'm very serious, you just continue to confuse the issues.On one hand you say it wasnt written, on the other you say its not canon.

These are 2 separate things.

Sorry you feel you wasted your time, but if you had taken the time to read my post more carefully there would have been no need to drag this out so long.

in short, the writers wrote the matrix into season 2, the idea was dropped in favor of a big reveal for the film

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:06 pm

deathy wrote:in short,your saying "your right" on everything & "i'm wrong on everything."

No.

In short I'm saying...

"your wrong when you say it wasnt written"

"Your right when you say it wasnt animated."

I'm also done debatting the issues with TF fans.

yeah, you said that already.

because no one admits their wrong,no one concedes,everyone when doing these types of replies thinks their more smarter/superior than the other guy their replting to.

I'll admit there are many like that.

But no, I'm not one of them.

I only make defintitive claims when I believe I'm right, and when I'm wrong I publicly admit it.

did so today over at TFW2005.[an issue with ROTF]

if something is going nowhere,then it becomes pointless & a waste of valuable time, "at least for me".

sorry to hear you wont be returning.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:09 pm

deathy wrote:I'm very serious, you just continue to confuse the issues.On one hand you say it wasnt written, on the other you say its not canon.

no, your confusing the issue by not reading what I posted.

I never said it wasnt written

I said it WAS written.

But its not canon.

There are a great many things that are written but arent canon.

by **Optimus Primevil** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:13 pm

deathy wrote:
Optimus Primevil wrote:well they did guard that meteor and they did repelled the constructicons when they tried to destroy teletraan-1.

All the transformers Jobs were to guard/protect their bases,not just the dinobots. due to the locations of both based being known by both factions.

their were countless scenes when other autobots fought off other decepticons from trying to detroy/harm teletran-1.

yeah but no other transformer team got stuffed in a closet for just that purpose. heck omega supreme's a guardian and OP never chose him to guard that meteor.

deathy wrote:most assume the aerailbots,defensor,metroplex,trypticon got sparks because they had persona. they weren't drones because drones are de-void of persona,free will & have no ambition nor goals.

if you think about it, most of the scenes of the dinobots are introduced with them being ordered around. either by optimus, wheeljack and even teletraan-1. heck the movie even had kup and hot rod rounding them up like cattle in order to get to the shuttle. at least season 3 had them doing their own thing

and since we can assume that things go around the background... was the beast the result of the autobots trying to create combiner technology of their own? sure it's not canon but if there's a group of autobots that prime would probably sacrifice to attain that goal, it's the dinobots.

News Credits: 2 · by **F Prime** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:30 am

The confusing bit re: "Guardian Drones", to me, is that the term is used in G1 to refer to the drones on Cybertron...I don't know if it would apply to any drone that guards something. Even if the Dinobots are drones (which I don't consider them to be) I wouldn't call them Guardian Drones.

by **shamone** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:39 am

to be fair its easy to see both sides

the matrix was not introduced to the series during the first two seasons, therefore viewers cannot make assumption that it did exist

On the other hand the matrix was planned to be introduced and was introduced during the movie, and it was suggested it always existed

Therefore you can make the reasoning that yes, the dinobots were created from the matrix, since it always existed, on the other hand it can be seen as a convenient retcon, in that some viewers can say, that at the time the matrix was an unknown entity, and is not being used to explain previous events.

And whether it was in production or meant to be introduced during season 2 is irrelevant, irrelevant to the viewer, who would not have been aware if it at the time. their first introduction to the matrix would be the movie

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:44 am

shamone wrote:to be fair its easy to see both sides

the matrix was not introduced to the series during the first two seasons, therefore viewers cannot make assumption that it did exist

On the other hand the matrix was planned to be introduced and was introduced during the movie, and it was suggested it always existed

Therefore you can make the reasoning that yes, the dinobots were created from the matrix, since it always existed, on the other hand it can be seen as a convenient retcon, in that some viewers can say, that at the time the matrix was an unknown entity, and is not being used to explain previous events.

And whether it was in production or meant to be introduced during season 2 is irrelevant, irrelevant to the viewer, who would not have been aware if it at the time. their first introduction to the matrix would be the movie

I never denyied that the viewer would be unaware.

But, when you [not saying you in particular] say something like "it wasnt written" then your stepping out of the purview of the viewer and entering the domain of the creators.

by **shamone** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:21 pm

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
shamone wrote:to be fair its easy to see both sides

the matrix was not introduced to the series during the first two seasons, therefore viewers cannot make assumption that it did exist

On the other hand the matrix was planned to be introduced and was introduced during the movie, and it was suggested it always existed

Therefore you can make the reasoning that yes, the dinobots were created from the matrix, since it always existed, on the other hand it can be seen as a convenient retcon, in that some viewers can say, that at the time the matrix was an unknown entity, and is not being used to explain previous events.

And whether it was in production or meant to be introduced during season 2 is irrelevant, irrelevant to the viewer, who would not have been aware if it at the time. their first introduction to the matrix would be the movie

I never denyied that the viewer would be unaware.

But, when you [not saying you in particular] say something like "it wasnt written" then your stepping out of the purview of the viewer and entering the domain of the creators.

which means its safe to say that the viewer may feel that the reason was shoehorned in after the event