The Energon Pub

Leonardo wrote:That's the problem with The Ultimate Guide. While it tries to remove any inconsistencies between the universes, its actual descriptions of those universes sometimes end up being inconsistent with the actual texts it's discussing.

Thats been my point all along and I tryed to site exsamples right from the pages of the Ultimate Guide of those inconsistencies to Tramp but he was to closed minded to the issue.Its like he wrote the book himself.

tramp even went as far as saying that the guide retconed the Japanese Universes He may have been right about the Hasbro universe's because Hasbro has the right to rewrite their product's but they cant retcon the Japanese stuff.

Nah, Tramp just wants the G1 Cartoon Retconned out of existence except for when he finds it convenient to use its contents in arguments. He thinks because some out of date guide says something, it's automatically a retcon, he thinks because "Beast Wars uses the name of Primus, he's been retconned into the G1 universe!" WE all saw there was no Primus in the g1 universe. Maybe it was a new religion on Cybertron, but we never actually saw a Primus, and the only reason they were using Primus' name in Beast Wars is because the writers didn't want to offend christians. And just because Tramp hasn'theard that before, he needs a "refence" because unless "Duh, it has t3h citation, I dont' believe it!" (Further proof he thinks he knows everything about Transformers.)

But nah, the book doesn't have the power to retcon anything. It's there as an "Information Source" not a retcon tool. Just because "Duh, t3h Hasblo officiates it!" doesn't mean it's changing anything. Hasbro don't remember everything, they've got so many different franchises it's not funny, so they aren't gonna remember every little thing about every one. And if Tramp's "Retconning" is anything to go by, the book retcons the Marvel comics, too, something trollboy said it wasn't able to do, but then all of a sudden was in the Unicron vs Primus thread in the cartoons/comics forum.

Cannon:
9. Underworld Slang. a pickpocket.

Never knew that...

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Leonardo wrote:

Damolisher wrote:

Leonardo wrote:Just a further question: if it is all one canon, does that mean people can't speak of "a canon for the IDW universe", for example?

WTF? One Canon? Has he been smoking rocks again? There isn't one canon, there's several different canons. There's comic canon, there's TV canon, there's Japanese canon, there's english canon, etc. For Example: The events of Masterforce are canon in Japan, but are non-canon over here, since we have different characters with different origins for our takes on characters who appeared in Masterforce. So, as I said, it's canon in Japan, it's non-canon to us, since their take doesn't effect our continuities at all. We also don't have Minerva, much like they don't have Nightbeat. Over there, Ginrai is not Optimus Prime, he's a lifeless body who is powered by a trucker, whereas here, it's Powermaster Prime poerwed by Hi-Q, you see?

That's sort of my point. Tramp's viewpoint is that it is all one canon, a canon that contains multiple universes. I'm asking, if that's the case, does it preclude discussions of a canon specific to any one universe?

In Tramps point of view it does....I'll give you an exsample,In the G1 toon it was Primacron that created Unicron as a weapon of mass destruction....this was unique to the Transformers Universes of the time and since {both Marvel U.K. and U.S. had him as a God of sorts] [Dreamwave,The Ulitamate Guide,Armada,Energon and Cybertron also a God]
From Tramps point of view the Guide rewrites any inconsistasy about issues with Unicron or Primus,in effect changing the stories told in ether minor or major ways and in some cases wipeing the story compleaty clean ,depending on the story.
Now I'm not saying he's wrong,But the Guide does a F'd up job of fixing the inconsistasy of those retcons.

It doesn't preclude specific discussions of a particular continuity. Also, the retcons that Hasbro did input don't wipe out any stories. All they do is modify the specific interpretations of TF ancient history, just like a new archeological find shines new light on our own past, thus forcing us to reinterpret the events. The same is true of the retcons. They reitnerpret stories as a result of new knowledge of the Transformers ancient origins, It don't wipe out the stories themselves. certain parts of the stories just need to be reinterpreted. They do not wipe out any of the stories.

^Can you not make your mind up about anything? Or is this just another attempt at modifying your story so you can stay right? There is no "Finding new things," it's "I'm gonna try and remove this part of Transformers history that was fine 20 years earlier." The Ultimate Guide means NOTHING.

And there's the ridiculous incorrectness that Stevie Wonder could see. These changes to the Quintesson' backstory which only you seem to consider canon, Tramp, DOES wipe out a LOT of stories. For a kick-off, it kills any relevance the Quints have in Five Faces of Darkness. It also KOs the Killing Jar, OK, hell, it totally roots most of season 3, which is where we get a LOT of information on the Transformers from. And I ask this: If there's a Primus in the G1 cartoon, where is he, huh?

Damolisher wrote:^Can you not make your mind up about anything? Or is this just another attempt at modifying your story so you can stay right? There is no "Finding new things," it's "I'm gonna try and remove this part of Transformers history that was fine 20 years earlier." The Ultimate Guide means NOTHING.

And there's the ridiculous incorrectness that Stevie Wonder could see. These changes to the Quintesson' backstory which only you seem to consider canon, Tramp, DOES wipe out a LOT of stories. For a kick-off, it kills any relevance the Quints have in Five Faces of Darkness. It also KOs the Killing Jar, OK, hell, it totally roots most of season 3, which is where we get a LOT of information on the Transformers from. And I ask this: If there's a Primus in the G1 cartoon, where is he, huh?

No, it doesn't wipe out Five Faces of Darkness. All it does is shine new light on the Transformers origins. Instead of the Quintessans having created the Transformers, they simply enslaved their early ancestors, experimented with them to suit their own needs, and split them into two groups—the "consumer" gorup, and "miltary" group–for purposes of sale. In essence, they "created" the modern Transformers through their interference in Cybertronian development. That is the only change to Five Faces of Darkness resulting from the retcon. IT reinterprets the idea of "how" the Quintessans were part of the Transformers' origins. If the retcons brought on by Beast Wars and Wreckers, and detailed in the Ultimate Guide, making Primus the true creator of the Transformers in all continuities, including the cartoon one did wipe out whole stories, then al of the internal continuity glitches between episodes wipes out even more previous episodes. The G1 cartoon has plenty of its own retcons involving individual characters' origins. Look at the Constructicons and Megatron. Both have two completely different and conflicting origin stories apiece. Having all continuities share a common origin does not scrap whole episodes or stories. It simply reinterprets them, giving them slightly different meanings.

As for the Ultimate Guide itself goes, It is a canon source. It was produced with Hasbro's full approval and license. Therefore, by definition, that makes it canon.

No it doesn't make it canon, you ignorant jerk. Lay off that stupid bolding ****, unlike you, I can read. And just because something's licensed doesn't make it canon. Something being part of a mainstream story makes it canon, doofus. Hasbro could start licensing my fanfics, that doesn't make them canon. Now, how about you go away, stop being a PEST, get the hell OUT of my topic, and allow someone else their say?

Damolisher wrote:No it doesn't make it canon, you ignorant jerk. Lay off that stupid bolding ****, unlike you, I can read. And just because something's licensed doesn't make it canon. Something being part of a mainstream story makes it canon, doofus. Hasbro could start licensing my fanfics, that doesn't make them canon. Now, how about you go away, stop being a PEST, get the hell OUT of my topic, and allow someone else their say?

Yes, Damolisher it does, by the very definition of the word "caonon" as stated in the Mirriuam-Webster's dictionary. Or do you dispute them? Here again is the difinition of Canon as stated in the Mirriam-Websters' Online Dictionary:

3 [Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard] a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture b : the authentic works of a writer c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works

Here again is the link: http://aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/home-aol.htm

The Ultimate Guide is sanctioned by Hasbro. It is licensed and approved by Hasbro. By definition, that approvbal and licensing by Hasbro makes the Ultimate Guide canon. A fan saying it isn't does not make it non-canon. Only Hasbro can do that.

Yeah, it says SANCTIONED OR ACCEPTED!!!!! As in, if it's not accepted by the fanbase, it doesnt' become canon. Now, will you leave the topic willingly, or do I have to get a mod to escort you out?

Damolisher wrote:Yeah, it says SANCTIONED OR ACCEPTED!!!!! As in, if it's not accepted by the fanbase, it doesnt' become canon. Now, will you leave the topic willingly, or do I have to get a mod to escort you out?

Yes, it does, because it is Hasbro, not the fanbase which does the sanctioning. If Hasbro sanctions and accepts the work, then it is canon. period. We do not determine what is or is not canon. The owner of the property, Hasbro, determines that. By sanctioning the Ultimate Guide, Hasbro has made that book canon. We have no say in that matter.

OK, screw you, I've asked you twice already to get out. I'm getting CB onto this, because I'm getting sick you you trying to force incorrect facts on people, and then when you get told what's up, you try to correct them, and tell them you're right. You're a freakin dictator. Now, piss off, stop trying to get the last word in, and start doing something useful, like keeping your activity strictly in the Kitbash forum. It seems to be the only place you don't piss everyone off in.

Damolisher, Who determines what is canon in Star Trek? Paramount. Who determines what is canon in Styar Wars? Lucas Licensing. It is the owner of the property, not the fanbase which determines if a story is canon or not. We, the fans have no say whatsoever in that. By sanctioning and liceinsing the Ultimate Guide, Hasbro has determined that the book is canon since they are the authority. We are not.

GET OUT OF MY TOPIC, ARSEHOLE!

Just because it is sanctioned by the owner does not mean that it is canon.I have pointed out a few exsamples to you on that before.Just because a company gives premision to some writers to tell a story on a pre-exsisting universe of fiction does not mean that said story will become canon.I can site many times that this has happened....and with out the publisher stating it before the story was told.
And some of these retcons do in fact make some major changes........the biggest one is that Unicron was not created by Primacron.This retcon pretty much wipe's "call of the primatives" from TF history.Even if you can still modify all the other changes into the other season 3 episodes you cant fit the retcons in to "call of the primatives" thats why even Furman didnt tey in the Guide.....he makes no mention of Primacron at all.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Just because it is sanctioned by the owner does not mean that it is canon.I have pointed out a few exsamples to you on that before.Just because a company gives premision to some writers to tell a story on a pre-exsisting universe of fiction does not mean that said story will become canon.I can site many times that this has happened....and with out the publisher stating it before the story was told.
And some of these retcons do in fact make some major changes........the biggest one is that Unicron was not created by Primacron.This retcon pretty much wipe's "call of the primatives" from TF history.Even if you can still modify all the other changes into the other season 3 episodes you cant fit the retcons in to "call of the primatives" thats why even Furman didnt tey in the Guide.....he makes no mention of Primacron at all.

Unless otherwise determined by the owner of the property, yes it does. Paramount specifically states that only certain stories are canon in Star Trek, and that is the live-action TV show and movies. Their licensed works are specifically classified as apocrypha by them. They, as the authority, don't accept the books into canon. Hasbro is another matter all together. They have not set aside only specific works as canon or not. Therefore, by default, every licensed work is canon. They have sacntioned and accepted these works. They have not written a specific canon policy which excludes certain bodies of work from canon. Therefore, if it is licensed and approved by Hasbro and Takara, it's canon by the very definition of the word. As for the specific retcons, they don't wipe out the Primacron story in Call of the Primitives, though it does require some serious reinterpretation of Primacron's assistant's retelling of the event.

Edit: And I was right, the 37 Year old virgin manages to lie his way out of another one. It clearly DOES delete the story, troll.

ENOUGH!!!

Tramp, you were warned about this behaviour by Cyber Bishop. Why can't you accept that someone has a different viewpoint than you?

3 [Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard] a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture b : the authentic works of a writer c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works

This means absolutely nothing. The fact that Hasbro approves something DOES NOT MEAN that it is G1 canon. Look at IDW's work. It's approved by Hasbro, focuses on G1 Characters, does that make it G1 canon? No.

Look at 3H's TF Universe titles. Even the recent one where the humans are at the wrong end of the Decepticon cannons. Is that canon? No, because to my knowledge those events never occurred.

Look at the new BW sourcebooks being printed. They're trying to combine all the characters into one universe, does this mean that it retcons everything else? No.

They are alternate views. Some people accept them as canon, others don't. Accept it and move on.

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Just because it is sanctioned by the owner does not mean that it is canon.I have pointed out a few exsamples to you on that before.Just because a company gives premision to some writers to tell a story on a pre-exsisting universe of fiction does not mean that said story will become canon.I can site many times that this has happened....and with out the publisher stating it before the story was told.
And some of these retcons do in fact make some major changes........the biggest one is that Unicron was not created by Primacron.This retcon pretty much wipe's "call of the primatives" from TF history.Even if you can still modify all the other changes into the other season 3 episodes you cant fit the retcons in to "call of the primatives" thats why even Furman didnt tey in the Guide.....he makes no mention of Primacron at all.

Unless otherwise determined by the owner of the property, yes it does. Paramount specifically states that only certain stories are canon in Star Trek, and that is the live-action TV show and movies. Their licensed works are specifically classified as apocrypha by them. They, as the authority, don't accept the books into canon. Hasbro is another matter all together. They have not set aside only specific works as canon or not. Therefore, by default, every licensed work is canon. They have sacntioned and accepted these works. They have not written a specific canon policy which excludes certain bodies of work from canon. Therefore, if it is licensed and approved by Hasbro and Takara, it's canon by the very definition of the word.

Paramount and Star Trek are not the only exsamples that I have given you in the past,But they are the only ones that specifically state that they are not canon......what about the others???????

Do you only focous on Star Trek because its the only one that specifically state its not canon or is it because you have no answer for the other exsamples that I sited????

Mkall wrote:ENOUGH!!!

Tramp, you were warned about this behaviour by Cyber Bishop. Why can't you accept that someone has a different viewpoint than you?

3 [Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard] a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture b : the authentic works of a writer c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works

This means absolutely nothing. The fact that Hasbro approves something DOES NOT MEAN that it is G1 canon. Look at IDW's work. It's approved by Hasbro, focuses on G1 Characters, does that make it G1 canon? No.

Look at 3H's TF Universe titles. Even the recent one where the humans are at the wrong end of the Decepticon cannons. Is that canon? No, because to my knowledge those events never occurred.

Look at the new BW sourcebooks being printed. They're trying to combine all the characters into one universe, does this mean that it retcons everything else? No.

They are alternate views. Some people accept them as canon, others don't. Accept it and move on.

Mkall, yes it does make it officially canon. I can accept other people's viewpoints no problem. Someoone trying to claim a canon source is flat out not canon I can't accept because that isn't our choice. It is Hasbro's and Takara's. We are not the authority on canon. Hasbro is. Takara is. They determine canon by liciensing and approving these books, comics, movies, and cartoons. Whether we accept them into our persona canon is not an issue, but official canon is another matter all together, and only Hasbro can determine that, and without a specific canon policiy like Paramount's and Lucas Licensing's for Star Trek and Star Wars, the very definition of the word Canon, establishes that everything licensed and sanctioned by Hasbro is canon. This includes the Ultimate Guide.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Do you only focous on Star Trek because its the only one that specifically state its not canon or is it because you have no answer for the other exsamples that I sited????

I don't know the official canon policies on the other properties you have mentioned in the past. I only know that of the Star Trek and Star Wars properties, and that is because there have been several debates in the SW forums over the years over what is and is not canon, with comparisons to Paramount's ST canon policy.

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Do you only focous on Star Trek because its the only one that specifically state its not canon or is it because you have no answer for the other exsamples that I sited????

I don't know the official canon policies on the other properties you have mentioned in the past. I only know that of the Star Trek and Star Wars properties.

So your saying you know the canon policies of Hasbro and Transformers????Where is that info coming from???????I would like to know who you have spoken to at Hasbro.

Yeah, I think nothing else would fit. Tramp likes to Cherry pick.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Do you only focous on Star Trek because its the only one that specifically state its not canon or is it because you have no answer for the other exsamples that I sited????

I don't know the official canon policies on the other properties you have mentioned in the past. I only know that of the Star Trek and Star Wars properties.

So your saying you know the canon policies of Hasbro and Transformers????Where is that info coming from???????I would like to know who you have spoken to at Hasbro.

I am saying, without a specific canon policy from Hasbro, regarding Transformers, everything licensed and approved by them and Takara is canon by default. Therefore, unless Hasbro specifically excludes certain materials from their canon, it is all canon.