The Energon Pub

Well, with the recent comments on the images of "Animated" Starscream, the colors used, the face, the altmode and various other issues touted recently, Counterpunch's statement that "there is no Mistake this toy line is geared specifically for the kids," rings true. So here is what I'm wondering...in the past we have seen alot of transformers series come along, and granted the cartoon series have become more child like in their messages and reasoning then in Generation one, but alot of Great toys have sprung from these series and have held their worth on the market.

I sometimes feel as if Hasbro intentionally kept their movie toyline shorter then what I was hoping for, in order to concentrate more efforts and Manufacturing Materials on bringing the "animated" toyline to life. Then I also feel that the Movie line was cut short due to the lackluster sales of other big movie properties, like Spiderman 3, or Pirates of the Carribean..Hasbro, IMHO, underestimated Market demand, and for that we had to seriously hunt to get our share of toys...then again, they are releasing a new full line up in Transformers Animated...so, Let's face it folks, the kids are their target market, and always will be..

unfortunately that means that as collectors we may only see our favorite toys released in smaller numbers due to their preference in the Market towards children. Granted those of you who are huge fans of the "Classics" series will be getting more in Classics 2.0, also known as Transformers Universe, but this share of the collector market may be smaller than what we think. I believe that may be due to the "Animated" toyline as what hasbro see's will be their bread and Butter..

I don't mind the idea of the "Animated" toyline, but it seems that these toys aesthically will be more in tune with their cartoon counterparts, and as a result, will look like cartoons themselves. Now I have to give credit to Hasbro, they really pulled off combinig the animated style into the toys themselves, but will it hold as a viable Market investment?

I loved Teen Titans, because it was a dynamic superhero cartoon and didn't have the blocky and straight chested and straight faced designs like those in the Superman, JLA, JLAU, and Batman cartoons. Transformers "Animated" looks to be driving in that general direction.. which is not something I was looking forwards to..being an old school guy so to speak..

So, as the movie Hype dies down, and the market shifts towards the most childlike representations of the Transformers, what then does the future hold for their value? Is the older generation then alienated from this series because of its design qualities? It almost seems like hasbro has decided it's time for new blood and granted classics 2.0 is coming out, but what of those of us who passed on classics because of the Botcon fiasco.. I know I'm not the only one who was upset...I'm just very vocal about it, and get flamed for it by those who have ...which is kinda wrong.. we all have our points of view..

My point of view towards the animated toyline is kinda iffey at best.. I like the idea of more AG-1 type toys, and it seems as if Hasbro has embraced a few ideas from the movie line as well.. but banking on the new Animated series as a great collection in the future, and passing them up or Passing up the chance to get back released toys, the possability that back stock may dwindle becaus eof the older market refusing to buy into the Animated toy line is real, so it's hard to say if one way or the other is not gonna yield heart aches..

On the one hand, if I pass up Animated and actually become a fan, I'm then kicking myself in the arse for it later while hunting feverishly on the net..

On the other hand, if I devote my finances and efforts to the animated, then my backstock recovery will suffer..Or, in order for me to feel the satisfaction of the collector bug in me, I will have to import even more from Takara Tomy, which I already do with most of my MISB collection.... still it's nice to have the option..

then again what of the collector who missed classics, and decides to pick up classics 2.0, he/she will then have to go back and find the first releases, which if that trend spreads, will cause back stock of those figures to dwindle and become next to impossible to purchase at a fair price.. then there is the issue of the Botcon merchandise, which could invariably fetch prices too costly to even want to continue collecting...

that's why i opted and support for IDW comics packs for those of us who aren't really all about the Classics line and have reservations in support of it due to the Btocon fiasco...Most or Half of the toys that should have had a main release were reserved for the rich and tenacious..

Buying both at the same time only puts both acquisitions in jeopordy... you might miss out, due to focussing on one thing while another sells out...but I think that the stock of Animated toys will be more considerable due to the fact that this is Hasbro's big push at the kids market, with a cartoon in tow..it remains to be seen what the future holds, but as a fan of transformers I feel the crunch coming my way... and I'm confused as to where it will end up, when they finally hit the shelves...

What's your take?

skywarp-2 wrote:unfortunately that means that as collectors we may only see our favorite toys released in smaller numbers due to their preference in the Market towards children.

If anything you'll see more of the Animated toys on the shelves. There are a lot more kids than collectors, so these things will probably be littering the isles like so many Ninja Turtles and Hot Wheels cars. I don't see availability being a problem with this line.

As far as what you should do, my only advice is collect what you truly like. If you are a diehard completionist then you better buy the toys while they are at retail and have the best availability because you know you'll want them all sooner or later.

If you're not a completionist and are torn about whether you want to start collecting them, wait until the line hits and check a few out at Walmart. If they catch your fancy then buy what you like and leave the shelfwarmers to rot.

Personally this line does nothing for me at all. I find Bumblebee to be least annoying of the line and he'll probably be the only one I buy. I won't feel bad at all about never adding Animated to my collection.

I have to admit I sorta lost the thread of what you were trying to say around the third or forth paragraph. My opinion is that TFA is a welcome return the Transformers I know and love after the unwelcome departure take with the movie and accompanying toy line.

Hasbro have always aimed Transformers at kids, they are after all selling toys. G1 was extremely simplistic in plot and design and was 100% aimed at children, there wasn’t even a collector market to consider back then, G2 was much the same. Beast Wars/Machines may have tried to retain some of the now older G1 fans with more intelligent plots and characterisation but the series and toy line was still essentially aimed at children. After that Hasbro handed responsibility for the TV shows and much of the design of the toy lines over to Takara, dubbing the Japanese shows with a soundtrack most defiantly aimed at a younger audience that Takara had intended. If anything I think TFA may appeal to the older fan better than any of the Unicron Trilogy series because it’s being made in the west for a western audience. In not expecting Beast Wars but I'm expecting something that doesn't suffer from the cheap half-arsed job they did translating the Takara series' for the US.

As for the figure designs, I like them. I've always been a fan of figures that closely resemble the fiction from which they came. This looks to be one of the most show accurate lines ever created by Hasbro and that pleases me greatly. I also really like the 'cartoony design', it reminds me a lot of the highly stylised designs of Beast Machines which was one of my favourite shows, for which I went to great length to find the most show accurate figures of all the characters.

My enjoyment of this line will ultimately hinge on the quality and content of the TV show, so far it looks pretty promising. I can’t really connect with a line of figures unless I like the designs and can connect with the characters and storyline of the fiction they derived from. This is my the movie line holds no interest to me and I only have a passing interest in the Classics line due to Marvel G1 nostalgia and the IDW comic books. Since getting back into Transformers in 2003 what has interested me the most has been new ideas, stories and characters, not rehashing the same old characters and designs, hopefully this new series will reignite my interest in the franchise where Classics and the Movie previously all but extinguish my interest. If they end up pushing movie toys off the shelves so be it, I really couldn't care less.

Yours AK

lanzajr26 wrote:

skywarp-2 wrote:unfortunately that means that as collectors we may only see our favorite toys released in smaller numbers due to their preference in the Market towards children.

If anything you'll see more of the Animated toys on the shelves. There are a lot more kids than collectors, so these things will probably be littering the isles like so many Ninja Turtles and Hot Wheels cars. I don't see availability being a problem with this line.

No, what I was saying is that any toys that we want outside of the Animated series will be in lower numbers then what we may expect.. I know the animated toy line will be in ginormous numbers... i firmly believe that classics 2.0 will be very marginal, because I know Hasbro's efforts will be mostly on the Animated toylines... and Hasbro has lots of other properties to keep up with, like Gi Joe, and Marvel, and girls toys and games, ect..ect.. so I'm not surprised that Animated will be the forefront of their efforts..

lanzajr26 wrote:As far as what you should do, my only advice is collect what you truly like. If you are a diehard completionist then you better buy the toys while they are at retail and have the best availability because you know you'll want them all sooner or later.

If you're not a completionist and are torn about whether you want to start collecting them, wait until the line hits and check a few out at Walmart. If they catch your fancy then buy what you like and leave the shelfwarmers to rot.

Personally this line does nothing for me at all. I find Bumblebee to be least annoying of the line and he'll probably be the only one I buy. I won't feel bad at all about never adding Animated to my collection.

I know what I'm gonna do, or aleast I think I do.. I just want to know what the rest of you think about how the collector market will change, what will become harder to pursue, what stock will be less and less over time, ect...

Alex Kingdom wrote:A lot of stuff.

Its nice and refeshing to see someone who isnt going oh noes, TFA is teh h0rr0z!

I am so fed up with the movie line that even if the TFA toys were the standard of the vast majority of Armada's toys, I'd still be looking foward to it. Luckily the TFA toys dont look anywhere near that bad. Im not keen on the reduced influence of the Decepticons that we have been promised, and I'd prefere a slightly less stylised design ethic, but hell, I cant wait!

Redimus wrote:Its nice and refeshing to see someone who isnt going oh noes, TFA is teh h0rr0z!

I don't think that's been the case at all.

As I said in the other thread about this issue, the response has been pretty tepid. Most collectors have said something along the lines, like you did, that they don't like the 'look' the toys are putting forward. However, I have yet to see outright slamming of them like the movie stuff got.

Why should classics 2.0 be marginalised? The first classics got a got run in stores (apart from jetfire and perhaps grimlock)alongside a major cartoon series (cybertron). I don't see why it shouldn't be the same again.

I was interested in Starscream, before they showed us his ugly mug. The style puts me off very much.
I'll wait and see what else Hasbro and Takara bring (besides Animated) and pick what looks good to my eyes.

(Right now I'd be happy about RH Optimus Prime vs Unicron, I can't find him anywhere - Ebay doesn't count).

I hate Hasbro's wave system, it takes about two months for one shipment to sell where I'm. Seeing something new is very rare and seldom what you want to see. The only shop that had all first wave Robot Heroes, got them for there second shipment, too, Optimus vs Ravage and Starscream vs whoever are currently still sitting on the shelves. At least there are lost of Roabots inbetween the regular Transformers, meaning they should get a new shipment soon, although I fear that it'll miss the wave I want.

skywarp-2 wrote:I just want to know what the rest of you think about how the collector market will change, what will become harder to pursue, what stock will be less and less over time, ect...

I don't think it's going to change. How is TFA any different to any other main line series? They have all been aimed at kids and (in recent years) collectors lines have been run along side them in smaller numbers. I expect this to continue.

Yours AK

I understand that the Animated and all other transformers series are geared towards children..it's not that that bothers me, it's the appearance of the toys that you can tell are more so geared towards children, with previous toys, there was a pseudo realistic approach to the toy design, these are purely working off of a skewed animated perspective, which IMO, kinda alienates the older crowd who traditionally prefer realism..

What I'm wondering is will this new direction and toyline take it's toll on the back stock IF the older collectors decide to ignore it in stores..

I'm getting too old to be all about a kids cartoon show, or more to the point cartoony styles.. I like Gundam's realism, and Th Masterpiece Realism, and the movie's realistic approach..I may just give Animated a chance.. but what I'm saying is if the appeal isn't universal to the older generation and classics isn't released in a wide enough venue..then what effect do you forecast for the remaining back stock and availability on the 2nd markets in the future..

things like this can adversely effect other lines and series that have been released previously..

Every toy line has a stinker at some point. Whether Animiated will stink it up for Hasbro remains to be seen. But even if it's not successful it won't keep them from creating the next line of Transformers and trying for a hit.

One possible downside if Animated doesn't do well, is that it may lead Hasbro to take less creative risks with TFs and we'll see the same old G1 rehashes over and over. That would be very disappointing.

I don't really see this line as being any less 'realistic' than most other main line series. late G1, Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Armarda, Energon and Cybertron all featured plenty of unrealistic nonsense altmodes. The TFA designs are mostly recognizable vehicles just very stylized, I don't see them as being any less realistic than robotic dinosaurs, Pretenders shells, Transmetal/Techno-orgainc animals, futuristic fire engines, fire breathing robotic dragons, and giant digging machines from another planet.

Yours AK

Who can say what the future will hold come january we may be buying the animated toys like there is no tomorrow because the show is amazing and writing is top notch despite the character design. Who to say how many figure will be included in classics 2.0/universe all we saw was three new designs they have untill oct 08 to get ready for the launch of that line and between now and then they may come up with large number of new design that we haven't even thought of. So don't worry about the future because you never know what it will hold.

Alex Kingdom wrote:I don't really see this line as being any less 'realistic' than most other main line series. late G1, Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Armarda, Energon and Cybertron all featured plenty of unrealistic nonsense altmodes. The TFA designs are mostly recognizable vehicles just very stylized, I don't see them as being any less realistic than robotic dinosaurs, Pretenders shells, Transmetal/Techno-orgainc animals, futuristic fire engines, fire breathing robotic dragons, and giant digging machines from another planet.

Yours AK

Exactly. They just have cartoon-esque proportions and looks, which come as a breath of fresh air for me.

The masterpiece series, the alternator series and the movie series have, for a good part satisfied my need for realism. But it gets a bit old after a while.

Bring on the cartoony. I'm definitely down for some of these.

There is only so much you can do with "realistic" figures. Even then the movie stretched it out, having to use Megatron's Cybertron mode.

Half the fun of the Transformers is having the un-realistic alt modes. Animated will bring that.

Alex Kingdom wrote:I don't really see this line as being any less 'realistic' than most other main line series. late G1, Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Armarda, Energon and Cybertron all featured plenty of unrealistic nonsense altmodes. The TFA designs are mostly recognizable vehicles just very stylized, I don't see them as being any less realistic than robotic dinosaurs, Pretenders shells, Transmetal/Techno-orgainc animals, futuristic fire engines, fire breathing robotic dragons, and giant digging machines from another planet.

Yours AK

hmmm i don't know, but maybe "realistic" here is in the sense that none of the previously mentioned series had almost-skewed looking robots that move way too fluidly to be desired. i guess that's one downer in the TFA style.

but, i digress, since we are talking about toys here and not the animation...

i_amtrunks wrote:There is only so much you can do with "realistic" figures. Even then the movie stretched it out, having to use Megatron's Cybertron mode.

Half the fun of the Transformers is having the un-realistic alt modes. Animated will bring that.

I love Megatron's jet mode. I don't know why Earth 'realistic' modes are necessarily better than Cybertron or unrealistic modes. If anything since cybertron is more advanced than Earth, Transformers who assume Earthen alt. modes are weaker than those who don't.

Even aesthetically, although there are some disguises that are just too cool, such as the Concept Camaro and Peterbilt truck, more unrealistic Cybetronic modes can't hurt.

i_amtrunks wrote:Half the fun of the Transformers is having the un-realistic alt modes.

As a kid some of these type of things really bugged me. Like the idea of a giant neon truck with huge guns sticking out the sides as a 'disguise'. And you get other brilliant 'disguises', like a Lamborghini cop car, or a space shuttle. Totally inconspicuous stuff like that.

What I'm looking forward to with the new animated series is that it's giving us something different in the caricatured proportions. That in itself is not necessarily a lack of realism, just a selective exaggerated reality. That probably makes it more attractive to kids, but whether it's suitable for kids alone will lie in the sophistication of the writing, the visuals, and how the whole package comes together generally.

Raymond101 wrote: I don't know why Earth 'realistic' modes are necessarily better than Cybertron or unrealistic modes. If anything since cybertron is more advanced than Earth, Transformers who assume Earthen alt. modes are weaker than those who don't.

Ah yes, but they are only earth modes superficially. The technology underneath is as cybertronian as ever.

I don't even care what Animated Blurr looks like. I'm getting the toy immediately when it comes out.

I was unaware *most* collectors have said their piece about the TFA line being crap, on the seibertron forums.

Interesting!

Bumblethumper wrote:

Raymond101 wrote: I don't know why Earth 'realistic' modes are necessarily better than Cybertron or unrealistic modes. If anything since cybertron is more advanced than Earth, Transformers who assume Earthen alt. modes are weaker than those who don't.

Ah yes, but they are only earth modes superficially. The technology underneath is as cybertronian as ever.

Yeah so people who are complaining about realism are missing the point. It seems quite silly to me actually. If you want realism, buy a car model. Not robots that transform into cars.

And to me futuristic or otherworldly vehicles are looking in general anyway.

BTw, I haven't said anything bad about the animated line yet. If anything they look kinda cool.

Briggs wrote:I was unaware *most* collectors have said their piece about the TFA line being crap, on the seibertron forums.

Neither was I. Can't say I concur with that sentiment at all. That may or may not change when I can actually get my greasy mits on one.

Raymond101 wrote:Yeah so people who are complaining about realism are missing the point. It seems quite silly to me actually. If you want realism, buy a car model. Not robots that transform into cars.

And to me futuristic or otherworldly vehicles are looking in general anyway.

Back in the late eighties/early nineties I would've killed for a return to the 'realism' of the original G1 diaclone figures, most of which I'd missed out on. Many of the late G1/early G2 figures were just weak, it wasn't so much the lack of realism, and indulgence in fantasy, the alt modes just seemed poorly designed and thought out. Fantasy/futurism became a sort of crutch, and you'd have some alt modes where you're not really sure what it's supposed to look like.

But at this stage they've taken realism about as far as is possible for now. It's time for something different. But even though TF animated will be more cartoony and futuristic, I hope it will still be believable within the boundaries of that universe, if that makes any sense. Like even though it's not 'real world' realism, I hope there'll still be some boundaries to cartoony 'realism', or at least a certain internal consistency. As opposed to brightly coloured, abstract, anything-goes type alt modes we've sometimes seen in the past.