The Energon Pub

Caelus wrote:
Now, even assuming that any such legalization effort would follow or accompany an overdue ban on enclosed public area smoking, what about marijuana smoking at home? I already take a dim view of parents smoking tobacco in an enclosed space with their children, I can't say I find the idea of smoking marijuana in that situation any more tolerable.

This would be a huge point for me too. Let me first say I'm a former smoker, and I know how hard a problem it is to quit. If you can't afford the gum and **** like that, going cold turkey is nigh impossible. I tried for over two years and couldn't do it. Took finding out that the lady who became my wife wouldn't even think about dating me till I stopped smoking to finally find the motivation I needed to quit.


That said, I never, ever smoked around children, and can't stand people who do. I think that that, for tobacco or marijuana should be punishable by jail, not just fines.

Me, Grimlock! wrote:This is the same as saying "Guns don't kill people; people kill people."

Uh, that's true. If people didn't have guns, they'd use knives, if they didn't have knives, they'd use clubs, if they didn't have clubs, they'd use their bare hands. Guns aren't the problem, as always, people are.

Okay first, I have to say curse you Counterpunch, I was gonna use the song!!!

That said I agree with the general sentimant here that it should be legalised and then regulated. Especially with regards to age and second hand smoke issues. For all intents and purposes, I'm practicaly allergic to cigerrete smoke, I suffer sevear asthma attacks if I'm around someone who is smoking for any real length of time. Maybe marijuana wouldn't have the same effect, but I'm not eager to find out.

Compared to other drugs, pot seems to be relativly harmless. I have no real experiance with it so someone may know something I don't, but the people I know who have smoked it have never demonstrated any kind of health issues because of it.

It is harmless, if you only do it once or twice a week, and don't mind becoming a worthless veggitable, once or twice a week. It really is not much different then knocking back a six pack.

But it can control your life, and in my experience, it causes more harm then good. I've seen a lot more lives destroyed by it than I've seen users who can manage it responsibly.

As has been stated before, a lot of this my be attributed to its 'taboo' status.


I guess the real reason I would like it legalized and the cops to start wasting time with it is because my wife and I are getting ready to start having kids (yay!) and I'm much more interested in our streets being safe from real criminals than some pot head being forced to log off of WoW. Granted, I don't want to see dealers near schools, and would be a strong advocate of a little vigilante justice being brought down on that, but really, Marijuana isn't an immediate danger to our streets, and/or homes.

Caelus wrote:

Me, Grimlock! wrote:I dont' use it nor have I ever. Maybe it should be legalized, but if it is, it should be regulated like cigarettes. Over here in some parts of Canada, it's illegal to smoke indoors in public places, which should be the same for marijunana.

Your the first person to man-up and mention the problem of second hand smoke. The same is true of parts of the use, it's illegal to smoke in extablishments that serve food here in my part of Colorado, so I doubt I'd feel any direct effects of marijuana legalization until I went home to Missouri, when I'd have to tolerate that ungodly stench half the time I went out to eat.

Now, even assuming that any such legalization effort would follow or accompany an overdue ban on enclosed public area smoking, what about marijuana smoking at home? I already take a dim view of parents smoking tobacco in an enclosed space with their children, I can't say I find the idea of smoking marijuana in that situation any more tolerable.

For starters, I don't see how addressing the second hand smoke issue is 'manning-up' in any real sense. Haven't most states enacted or shortly will enact some kind of public smoking ban? It's not like people who find smoking so agregious are a non-vocal minority who aren't being heard by local governments concerning the issue.

Secondly, I am a cigarette smoker and am trying to quit for a number of reasons. In Chicago at least smoking is banned in all bars and resturants and stuff. While I am a smoker and so Satan incarnate to a number of people, I for one never would smoke in a resturant becuase I felt it was just plain old rude to others, smokers or nonsmokers alike. Certainly a vast horde will rise up against me when I say this, but I do feel like my rights are being abused by not being able to have a cigarette in a bar or at a concert. I know that sounds childish probably, but I am sorry that I feel this way, but I do. Last time I checked, it wasn't against any law to have feelings on any given issue, even if they were unpopular feelings, so I'm not violating anything. The Obama thread right after the election showed that deviation from the Hive Mind around here would not be tolerated, and maybe that means my enjoying a cigarette really does make me the devil around here, but oh well.

As for the issue at hand, I honest to goodness believe that we as a society (US, I guess. Like the United States) are trying to regulate too damn much and probably ought to stop it. I am not a pot smoker, but have friends who are, and have friends who are as burned out as a three year old lightbulb as a result of either pot or booze or whatever their weapon of choice. I personally love beer. As I said, I smoke cigarettes. I'm also about a quarter finished with a pHD. So, I guess despite demons drink and tobacco I'm turning out decently. It would seem that I can handle my vices, and so am not nor have ever worried about beers and smokes getting the better of me and ruining my life.

Maybe we really should let people stand or fall on their own, you know? Some people probably could handle a J here or there, like some of us handle a brew or a Long Island here or there. Other people would find a way to get high on Cheetos if you gave them enough time. Maybe what we really ought to do is stop trying to keep everyone safe and health until age 99, and let people make their own stupid decisions and pay any related consequences. MAybe we should legalize pot and tax it so that cigarettes don't cost ten 'effing bucks a pack.

Sure, legalize it and tax it. I'm all for it.

Ironhidensh wrote:I guess the real reason I would like it legalized and the cops to start wasting time with it is because my wife and I are getting ready to start having kids (yay!) and I'm much more interested in our streets being safe from real criminals than some pot head being forced to log off of WoW. Granted, I don't want to see dealers near schools, and would be a strong advocate of a little vigilante justice being brought down on that, but really, Marijuana isn't an immediate danger to our streets, and/or homes.

Basically it's not the greatest evil? I'd have to agree. Still don't want my children trying it as much as I don't want them trying cigarettes or even using a cell phone while driving.

Ironhidensh wrote:If people didn't have guns, they'd use knives, if they didn't have knives, they'd use clubs, if they didn't have clubs, they'd use their bare hands. Guns aren't the problem, as always, people are.

Let's stay on subject and avoid a discussion on the multiple failings of "common sense" and "folk wisdom" shall we?

Me, Grimlock! wrote:

Pyrostrata wrote:As for those that claim they lost friends to marijuana, that is not the substance's fault, that burden is squarely on the user!

This is the same as saying "Guns don't kill people; people kill people."

But what you said is exactly true! It's not the weapon's fault that the person holding it is a murderer! Same with marijuana usage. The substance itself is benign, but if the user is an idiot or mentally unstable from the start...then the issues creep up.

People always like to pass blame off on other people and things and never take their fair share. If marijuana ruins a person's life, THEY allowed it to! It is not the substance's fault...it's the person's!

Caelus: That's the entire point of my post. Get it to be marketed like tobacco and sure it's usage will rise for a time, but it will eventually lose it's appeal like tobacco has.

Yes, it does need to be regulated though. I'd recommend a ID system that can track how much you're allowed to purchase from stores within a given time period. Make it so that there's some kind of bar code on your ID that keeps track of your marijuana purchases and is mandated by law that your ID be scanned after every purchase regardless of age. I'm still fuzzy on all the mechanics of this idea as I just made it up, but it seems to be very feasible when you think about it.

Not sure I'd support monitoring how much a person buys in a given timespan, just because that's a bit too Big Brother for my tastes.

I'm cool with it not being allowed in restaurants due to second-hand issues, same as cigarettes. And smoking around children is wrong. I know a guy that actually had his two-year old son pass a joint to a friend. That's just irresponsible parenting. Thankfully, that guy has cleaned his act up a lot since then.

I really don't need to say much do I? So I'll just quote one Bob Marley and say "Legalize it yeah"

I don't think marijuana is a good thing at all, although there are worse vices. I don't hate someone just because they use it, but I simply don't understand the logic behind it.

I wouldn't legalize it simply because there is no need to make it more mainstream than it already is.

If it hadn't been allowed to be glamorized in music, tv shows and movies, do you honestly think people would use it as much as they do now?

I don't, because no one would know what it is.

Delicon wrote:If it hadn't been allowed to be glamorized in music, tv shows and movies, do you honestly think people would use it as much as they do now?

I don't, because no one would know what it is.

What a ludicrous notion. The same could be said of literally any other product or 'vice' that has been endorsed on television or radio. Do you think that the Ipod would be as universally popular without advertisement?

Anyway, I'm pro-legalisation because of all the points that have already been listed: regulation, official guidelines, destigmatisation and perhaps more publicity of marijuana's positive uses.

Blast Cannon wrote:Delicon wrote:
If it hadn't been allowed to be glamorized in music, tv shows and movies, do you honestly think people would use it as much as they do now?

I don't, because no one would know what it is.

What a ludicrous notion. The same could be said of literally any other product or 'vice' that has been endorsed on television or radio. Do you think that the Ipod would be as universally popular without advertisement?

I agree with that, but what it comes down to is if you think the subject in question (be it ipods or marijuana or ice cream) should have been given so much public attention in the first place. My personal belief is marijuana shouldn't have. The same can be said for a lot of other things as well.

Delicon wrote:

Blast Cannon wrote:Delicon wrote:
If it hadn't been allowed to be glamorized in music, tv shows and movies, do you honestly think people would use it as much as they do now?

I don't, because no one would know what it is.

What a ludicrous notion. The same could be said of literally any other product or 'vice' that has been endorsed on television or radio. Do you think that the Ipod would be as universally popular without advertisement?

I agree with that, but what it comes down to is if you think the subject in question (be it ipods or marijuana or ice cream) should have been given so much public attention in the first place. My personal belief is marijuana shouldn't have. The same can be said for a lot of other things as well.

By that logic we shouldn't portray violence of any kind in films or any other medium, because we should reduce all chance of anybody seeing it 'in action' and therefore tempted to repeat it in real life.

My point is that marijuana's publicity, I think, has little or no impact on the drug's popularity. I tried it at university on the basis that my friends said that I would giggle at anything and want to just sit around debating the philosophies of the universe with complete strangers for a couple of hours, it had nothing to do with the Jay and Silent Bob movies or any other example that I can't think of at the moment of cannabis being 'glorified' in the entertainment industry.

Never realy understood why so many people look at marihuana as something innocent...

I have seen that stuff destroy young people, from intelligent actif promising ambitious highschoolstudent to unintrested, 'relaxed' (ahum) potheads whose single ambition is to get high again...

offcourse same can be said for any drug, including alcohol, but I consider pot to be especialy dangerous because its so accesible, and it has this whole air of innocence surrounding it in popculture...

in holland they legalised the stuff years ago, but now in recent times there are many voices asking to limit or even ban it again because it causes so many problems....

bossbot wrote:Never realy understood why so many people look at marihuana as something innocent...

I have seen that stuff destroy young people, from intelligent actif promising ambitious highschoolstudent to unintrested, 'relaxed' (ahum) potheads whose single ambition is to get high again...

offcourse same can be said for any drug, including alcohol, but I consider pot to be especialy dangerous because its so accesible, and it has this whole air of innocence surrounding it in popculture...

in holland they legalised the stuff years ago, but now in recent times there are many voices asking to limit or even ban it again because it causes so many problems....

Pot is not the problem. It is irresponsible users. Get and keep a job, pay your taxes, pay your bills, take care of your home/apartment, and relax with a nice bit of marijuana. That is how it should be, and if you are a sensible person, that is how it is. There is no need to point a boney blame-finger at a substance..it takes the spotlight off the already-existing problems with the user. Take personal responsibility for your own life and marijuana usage becomes a non-issue.

First some fun before the facts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR42Ia_-aDA NSFW and related to the conversation.


Now here's the thing about people arguing that weed is bad. Statistically it's actually harmless compared to other vices that are legal.

http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30

Yeah that's right. Dead last. Arguing that weed shouldn't be legalized because it's bad for you is illogical at best. By that logic having sex, driving, drinking alcohol, and smoking tobacco should be illegal.

I don't think it will ever be made legal though. And not because of the Moral Majority or because it's seen as a "drug". No the actual reason is they'd have to make restitution to anyone that was arrested and served (or is still serving time) for marijuana related charges.

Above you'll see that I put the word drug into quotation marks. The reason I did that is the actual dictionary definition of the word drug didn't include marijuana as it was any man made substance that altered your mind. Until the War on Drugs that is, then it was changed to any substance that altered your mind.

drug
1   /drʌg/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [druhg] Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, verb, drugged, drug⋅ging.
–noun
1. Pharmacology. a chemical substance used in the treatment, cure, prevention, or diagnosis of disease or used to otherwise enhance physical or mental well-being.
2. (in federal law)
a. any substance recognized in the official pharmacopoeia or formulary of the nation.
b. any substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease in humans or other animals.
c. any article, other than food, intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of humans or other animals.
d. any substance intended for use as a component of such a drug, but not a device or a part of a device.
3. a habit-forming medicinal or illicit substance, esp. a narcotic.
4. drugs,
a. chemical substances prepared and sold as pharmaceutical items, either by prescription or over the counter.
b. personal hygienic items sold in a drugstore, as toothpaste, mouthwash, etc.
5. Obsolete. any ingredient used in chemistry, pharmacy, dyeing, or the like.
–verb (used with object)
6. to administer a medicinal drug to.
7. to stupefy or poison with a drug.
8. to mix (food or drink) with a drug, esp. a stupefying, narcotic, or poisonous drug.
9. to administer anything nauseous to.
—Verb phrase
10. drug up, to take a narcotic drug: The addict prowled about for a place to drug up.
—Idiom
11. drug on the market, a commodity that is overabundant or in excess of demand in the market. Also, drug in the market.

Merc With A Mouth wrote:
I don't think it will ever be made legal though. And not because of the Moral Majority or because it's seen as a "drug". No the actual reason is they'd have to make restitution to anyone that was arrested and served (or is still serving time) for marijuana related charges.

No offense, but that's ridiculous. The most they'd have to do is release anyone currently serving time.

Right now, marijuana is illegal. Therefor, if you use it, you are a criminal. You are knowingly and willing doing something that is against the law. If that law changes later on, you don't get to roll back time, and un commit your criminal offense. Regardless of whether or not marijuana should or shouldn't be illegal, anybody paying the price for its use now, deserves what they got. They broke the law. End of story.

Ironhidensh wrote:

Merc With A Mouth wrote:
I don't think it will ever be made legal though. And not because of the Moral Majority or because it's seen as a "drug". No the actual reason is they'd have to make restitution to anyone that was arrested and served (or is still serving time) for marijuana related charges.

No offense, but that's ridiculous. The most they'd have to do is release anyone currently serving time.

Right now, marijuana is illegal. Therefor, if you use it, you are a criminal. You are knowingly and willing doing something that is against the law. If that law changes later on, you don't get to roll back time, and un commit your criminal offense. Regardless of whether or not marijuana should or shouldn't be illegal, anybody paying the price for its use now, deserves what they got. They broke the law. End of story.

Um no. If you're found innocent of a crime after being found guilty of it or you've served time for something that's become become legalized the State has to make restitution to you. That's the law. End of story. You can't selectively pick and choose which laws to follow. Even criminals have rights. Especially when they're no longer considered criminals.

bossbot wrote:but I consider pot to be especialy dangerous because its so accesible

Accessible? That was sarcastic, right?

Secondly, by that logic, cigarettes and alcohol are infinitely more dangerous than marijuana.

Also, about restitutions and whatnot, I highly doubt that would happen. Look at Prohibition. When Prohibition ended, nobody got restitutions. Many of the people in jail still had to finish serving their time on the grounds that their actions were illegal at the time they were committed..

I come from a town in good ol' England called Brighton - a drugs haven. The amount of cannabis used\sold here is astounding and I have yet to see any real problems caused by the stuff.

From my first-hand experience with the problems caused by illegal substances, it would be safer if a few of them were made legal. Through legalisation there would be no need for the scare-mongering tactics used by police\government to persuade us not to take the drug - efforts to inform about risks and consequences could then be taken as precisely that - information. Ecstasy comes to mind in particular, the impurities that can be present can sometimes be worse than the drug itself not to mention that information about the drug is sometimes sketchy, which can lead to complications.

On many occaision I've read of drug related deaths caused by people being unwilling to phone an ambulance because the drug taken is illegal and don't want the police involved. That isn't to say that all drugs should be legalised, some drugs are too addictive and dangerous for that (Acid and Heroin come particually to mind), but I believe that some drugs can be made safer through legislation and legalisation.

Savage wrote:

bossbot wrote:but I consider pot to be especialy dangerous because its so accesible

Accessible? That was sarcastic, right?

Secondly, by that logic, cigarettes and alcohol are infinitely more dangerous than marijuana.

Also, about restitutions and whatnot, I highly doubt that would happen. Look at Prohibition. When Prohibition ended, nobody got restitutions. Many of the people in jail still had to finish serving their time on the grounds that their actions were illegal at the time they were committed..

Exactly. Its not a mistrial, or a situation where new evidence finds you innocent. Even if the law is changed, you are still guilty for breaking the law at that time. That doesn't ever change.

All the stuff that came before...

-- How would employers respond to the legalization? Would it still be appropriate to ban usage amongst employees? Doing so is both legal and ethical (in the U.S. and in my mind, respectively). I know faith-based organizations which ban alcohol use among employees and enforce it through the employment contract.
-- How would general society change if it became legalized? What new groups would engage in smoking pot? How would that affect those groups?
-- How much of a burden on society would the legalization be through the various support groups and medical programs that would likely increase?
-- How do you prevent the sale of pot from becoming monopolistic and, frankly, disgusting as the cigarette companies have become?

Some questions I have to ask as their answers should affect any legislation which may ever come to pass in our respective nations.

Note: The questions do not beg answers; I've previously posted my disagreement with its legalization. So think freely and answer as you will.

-- How would employers respond to the legalization? Would it still be appropriate to ban usage amongst employees? Doing so is both legal and ethical (in the U.S. and in my mind, respectively). I know faith-based organizations which ban alcohol use among employees and enforce it through the employment contract.

It would probably be illegal to consume at work, like alcohol. Can't come to work drunk = cant come to work stoned.

-- How would general society change if it became legalized? What new groups would engage in smoking pot? How would that affect those groups?

Some areas would change more than others. Some people who never tried it but were curious would probably try it. I doubt potential users would make a big deal of it. Certain groups that would be against it are probably the ones that would bring things into the spotlight.

-- How much of a burden on society would the legalization be through the various support groups and medical programs that would likely increase?

Taxes on marijuana products would hopefully offset any burden on society.

-- How do you prevent the sale of pot from becoming monopolistic and, frankly, disgusting as the cigarette companies have become?

You can't. The tobacco companies would probably take charge of pot production/distribution.

Savage wrote:-- How much of a burden on society would the legalization be through the various support groups and medical programs that would likely increase?

Taxes on marijuana products would hopefully offset any burden on society.

And do you know the health benefits marijuana has, especially on chemotherapy patients?