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Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

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Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby Wolfman Jake » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:56 pm

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There is a big issue I have as a collector that becomes more apparent as the years roll on with the Masterpiece series, and it's something that's rarely ever talked about among fans. I'm not talking about the changes in direction for the line (and there have been several), only the latest of which is the shift to a more cartoon accurate aesthetic. I'm talking about the fact that the Masterpiece line will never truly be "complete."

We've been told time and again that we're not going to get combiners in the Masterpiece line. The engineering and cost involved is apparently not feasible for Takara. We're not getting combiner characters as non-combining components either. In fact, we know from designer interviews that Combiner Wars/Unite Warriors Devastator was Takara's "best approximation" of doing an actual Masterpiece version of the Constructicons. At best, we can hope for a "nearly complete" line up of characters from the first few seasons of the cartoon without any of the Constructicons, Aerialbots, Stunticons, Protectobots, Combaticons, Technobots, Terrorcons, or Predacons. That's a LOT of characters left out in the cold. (At least 41!) It's tempting to use the Unite Warriors and Power of the Primes releases of these teams as Masterpiece stand ins, but the scale is all wrong (except for maybe Devastator and Predaking), and the aesethics don't match with the "pure G1 cartoon design" mission statement of Masterpiece currently, since these toys were designed with more of the "Classics" mentality, that being modernized updates of G1 characters with a balance between traditional characteristics and detailing alongside less anachronistic technology.

So, what is a completionist to do at this point? Will most fans be satisfied with a reduced line-up of G1 characters when all is said and done? Does knowing that Masterpiece will never be a truly complete collection diminish your enthusiasm for collecting this line? Is it enough for most consumers to have a smattering of only their favorite characters in "perfect" Masterpiece form?
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby Counterpunch » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:20 pm

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Frankly, that's why I find Generations to be a more fun endeavor. We've covered much of the original cast, spread out to Beast Wars, and are now gaining different options on classic characters.
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby shajaki » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:27 pm

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This is only a problem for those who have some sort of objection towards 3rd parties.

Hell, I think the 3P's have already done MP's of the Monsterbots.
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby ZeroWolf » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:05 pm

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An interesting question, though let's have a look at it this way though, suppose that Takara announced they would do combiners, but that the combiner components would be sold individually (let's leave how they would pull this off for a different conversation). How long would it take for this line to be complete? It seems to me that there we would be waiting an awful long time for such a thing. Though I'm glad they started the beast wars line as that will be complete a lot sooner thanks to a smaller season 1 cast (which is all that we're likely to get from that line).

To summarise, life is too short to worry about it never be complete. Enjoy what you have and the hunt to get what you want. Celebrate the success and analyse the failures. Remember, you'll never know when your favourite masterpiece will arrive :-)
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby Wolfman Jake » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:51 pm

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shajaki wrote:This is only a problem for those who have some sort of objection towards 3rd parties.

Hell, I think the 3P's have already done MP's of the Monsterbots.


Well, a lot of people have some sort of objection towards 3rd party products. They're not official. No matter how much they may try to ape the "Masterpiece" work of Takara, they're not made by the same people and are technically not sold under that label either. They may fill gaps in a display to the undiscerning eye, but they will never "complete" the actual Masterpiece line as officially sold by Takara.
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby Wolfman Jake » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:59 pm

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ZeroWolf wrote:An interesting question, though let's have a look at it this way though, suppose that Takara announced they would do combiners, but that the combiner components would be sold individually (let's leave how they would pull this off for a different conversation). How long would it take for this line to be complete? It seems to me that there we would be waiting an awful long time for such a thing. Though I'm glad they started the beast wars line as that will be complete a lot sooner thanks to a smaller season 1 cast (which is all that we're likely to get from that line).


I was going to bring up this point in my first post too, but I decided not to make a tl;dr wall of text to start of the discussion. Yes, the slow trickle of Masterpiece figures is a bit of a problem, and it's been getting noticeably worse of late for collectors strictly interested in G1 characters (note: not me). A few years ago, we were having quite a Masterpiece boom. So many figures were coming out that it was hard to financially plan for them all. Now, the releases have slowed down considerably, since a number of new releases are now taken up by Beast Wars characters. It also doesn't help that many G1 characters are being redone, either given a whole new toy to improve upon an earlier attempt, or a new deco to better match the simplified cartoon models. In some instances, like with Megatron, this was definitely needed. In others, like the upcoming "Optimus Prime 3.0," I think most people would have been fine with MP-10. It's hard to tell where the Movie Masterpiece figures fit in this dynamic. They are supposedly a joint venture by Hasbro and Takara and are most likely a completely separate project, budget, and release schedule from what Takara is doing with its G1 and Beast Wars Masterpiece figures.
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby fenrir72 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:41 pm

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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby ZeroWolf » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:50 am

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Wolfman Jake wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:An interesting question, though let's have a look at it this way though, suppose that Takara announced they would do combiners, but that the combiner components would be sold individually (let's leave how they would pull this off for a different conversation). How long would it take for this line to be complete? It seems to me that there we would be waiting an awful long time for such a thing. Though I'm glad they started the beast wars line as that will be complete a lot sooner thanks to a smaller season 1 cast (which is all that we're likely to get from that line).


I was going to bring up this point in my first post too, but I decided not to make a tl;dr wall of text to start of the discussion. Yes, the slow trickle of Masterpiece figures is a bit of a problem, and it's been getting noticeably worse of late for collectors strictly interested in G1 characters (note: not me). A few years ago, we were having quite a Masterpiece boom. So many figures were coming out that it was hard to financially plan for them all. Now, the releases have slowed down considerably, since a number of new releases are now taken up by Beast Wars characters. It also doesn't help that many G1 characters are being redone, either given a whole new toy to improve upon an earlier attempt, or a new deco to better match the simplified cartoon models. In some instances, like with Megatron, this was definitely needed. In others, like the upcoming "Optimus Prime 3.0," I think most people would have been fine with MP-10. It's hard to tell where the Movie Masterpiece figures fit in this dynamic. They are supposedly a joint venture by Hasbro and Takara and are most likely a completely separate project, budget, and release schedule from what Takara is doing with its G1 and Beast Wars Masterpiece figures.

I completely forgot about the movie masterpiece releases #-o

Though I wonder, if they are saving money through the brand unification, will we see any improvement in the scheduling of new MPs now? Or has that money just went to further the completely Takara owned ips. :-?
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby Wolfman Jake » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:47 am

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fenrir72 wrote:Problem? Available disposable cash! :lol:


Indeed! Prices have been going up quite a bit lately too. Masterpiece Dinobot is tres expensive, and Masterpiece Beast Wars Megatron will be absolutely wallet murdering. Meanwhile, repaints of older Masterpiece figures have increased in price from anywhere from 20% to 50% of their original MSRP just a few years ago. OUCH!
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby fenrir72 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:35 am

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Wolfman Jake wrote:
fenrir72 wrote:Problem? Available disposable cash! :lol:


Indeed! Prices have been going up quite a bit lately too. Masterpiece Dinobot is tres expensive, and Masterpiece Beast Wars Megatron will be absolutely wallet murdering. Meanwhile, repaints of older Masterpiece figures have increased in price from anywhere from 20% to 50% of their original MSRP just a few years ago. OUCH!


:lol: Money is always the big problem.

The less paint apps but + immobilizer accessory is much more expensive? So for those who dig the anime Dery style good for them.

Now if there be an anime style Hound.
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby Burn » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:29 am

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Wolfman Jake wrote:I'm talking about the fact that the Masterpiece line will never truly be "complete."

But with every release it's "complete", until the next release, and then once new release is acquired, the collection is again "complete".

That's working on the assumption that the Masterpiece line, is treated strictly as a line of it's own.

What you seem to be doing is expecting it to mirror G1. Sorry WJ, but you've brought this on yourself. :wink:
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby ScottyP » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:34 am

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I feel like MP toys need to master the basics of stitch patterns before we worry too much about them loom-ing.

More seriously, I'm not bothered by this because I don't think there's a truly "complete" line across the history of Transformers. Did the G1 lineup have Devcon, Hauler, Alicons, Autobot X, Nightbird, Impactor, Emirate Xaaron, Centurion, Rainmakers, or even poor old Subsea? Did Beast Wars have a true Tripredacus Council? Where are toys of: Botanica, Beast Wars Neo Unicron, Cybertronian Mode Armada toys, Signal Lancer, Animated Constructicons, That One Movie Guy You Know That One, Clawtrap, Filch, Hardshell, Aileron, Rung, and countless more?

You just have to make a choice to create your own definitions of "complete" and how you can achieve that if it's a goal. Is a full set of "Ark" Autobots in Masterpiece doable? Yes, if adding third party options. Don't want to do that and can't accept waiting on Takara to make that happen, if they even ever will? Guess you should collect a different line. For me, Masterpiece is a celebration of characters, design, and engineering that will always have a somewhat limited scope. Where I want to expand it, my choices are third party, other official lines (like Alternators/Binaltech for Omnibots), or don't.

Besides, the journey's what matters. If it was done and complete, a big part of the fun would be behind us!
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby Amelie » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:51 am

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I don't see this as an issue. The Masterpiece line, as its own thing is just another range as much as Generations or Armada. I don't expect the entire G1 cartoon to be represented because not all the characters are as iconic as others. Skids, for example - I'm not expecting him in a hurry. There will be the silver Crosscut variant later, if they do, because Hasbro and Takara like getting the most out of their designs.

Combiners, with exception of Devastator aren't exactly iconic to the series, either (ask most non-fans and they won't associate combining robots with Transformers - thats Power Ranger's job). They tried Devastator and realized it was too expensive, so we ended up getting him in Generations. If people want to put him in with the MPs, thats fine, too - but thats no different from how people mix and match various Generations lines in with G1, BW or anything else.

The "looming" problem for me is they'll lose steam on the current cartoon accuracy run and switch aesthetic before I'm satisfied with the line up.
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby Wolfman Jake » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:28 pm

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Burn wrote:
Wolfman Jake wrote:I'm talking about the fact that the Masterpiece line will never truly be "complete."

But with every release it's "complete", until the next release, and then once new release is acquired, the collection is again "complete".

That's working on the assumption that the Masterpiece line, is treated strictly as a line of it's own.

What you seem to be doing is expecting it to mirror G1. Sorry WJ, but you've brought this on yourself. :wink:


But, that is what Takara have said in the past. We've just forgotten. Their aim right now is to get the season 1 and 2 cast "done", save for, of course, the combiner characters. I wish I had the reference right now, but this was the mission statement right around the time we got the first big "reboot" of the Masterpiece line with MP-10.

As for completeness, I don't care much about the cartoon or comics only characters that never got toys back in the day (especially the comics only ones). Those were creations of writers trying to make enough decent stories to satisfy a contract with Hasbro (or who just had way too much "creative" control for their own good). My definition of "complete" would simply be a "Masterpiece" representation of every toy in the G1 line, at lest from 1984-1987.
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby ZeroWolf » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:35 pm

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But is that mission statement still valid now? I would say that it's possible it has shifted, especially with Beast Wars coming out and the backtrack to get already done characters out there with cartoon accurate decos. Who knows what a change of designers could do? They might decided to focus on the Japanese only series like Headmaster's or Masterforce...okay a mp god ginrai would be awesome, even if thy had to sell it as Super Ginrai and God bomber.
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby Wolfman Jake » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:58 pm

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ZeroWolf wrote:But is that mission statement still valid now? I would say that it's possible it has shifted, especially with Beast Wars coming out and the backtrack to get already done characters out there with cartoon accurate decos. Who knows what a change of designers could do? They might decided to focus on the Japanese only series like Headmaster's or Masterforce...okay a mp god ginrai would be awesome, even if thy had to sell it as Super Ginrai and God bomber.


We don't really know, but it's the last solid thing we have to go on as far as the intention of the line (not counting the "no combiners" statement). Obviously, the mission statement has AT LEAST expand to include Beast Wars characters as well. (Again, the live action movie figures seem to be a very different project.) Originally, with MP-10, I think the idea was to get all the pre-movie characters done. They've been pretty much sticking to that idea with the G1 cast with just a few exceptions. They've included a bunch of redecos and minor retools to get more use out of the molds by dipping into original Diaclone versions of the toys, eHobby exclusive characters, and a few Sunbow creations as well. This makes perfect business sense, and most of these extras have been offered as additional "limited edition" offers for completionists. The other exception has been the inclusion of Hot Rod and Ultra Magnus, but both of those were already released in the pre MP-10 line, so they could be seen more as updates of flawed figures, one that had a tendency to self-destruct, and the other being simply a white repaint of MP-1 without its own trailer or armor.
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby ZeroWolf » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:31 pm

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The other exception was MP-24 Starsaber of course but obviously he won that poll they conducted. I do see what you mean though, and we all knew repaints were coming, and to be fair, I don't mind them, some of them, Cordon for instance. If I had the cash, I would spring for him.
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby Wolfman Jake » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:39 pm

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ZeroWolf wrote:The other exception was MP-24 Starsaber of course but obviously he won that poll they conducted. I do see what you mean though, and we all knew repaints were coming, and to be fair, I don't mind them, some of them, Cordon for instance. If I had the cash, I would spring for him.


Yeah, I forgot about Starsaber, but like you said, that was the result of a fan poll, so that doesn't disprove the general "rule" of the line. I'm looking forward to Cordon, but I really would have rather gotten a red Diaclone Sunstreaker, a.k.a., "Spin-Out" (I still think "Hotstreak" would have been a better name for a red Lamborghini, but whatever), to go with the previously released yellow Diaclone Sideswipe, a.k.a. "Tigertrack."
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby ZeroWolf » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:22 pm

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Well we still might get the red sunstreaker, still plenty of time. I do wonder when they start the design process, if the amount of other characters they can get out of one mold is ever a consideration. :-?
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby Wolfman Jake » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:35 pm

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ZeroWolf wrote:Well we still might get the red sunstreaker, still plenty of time. I do wonder when they start the design process, if the amount of other characters they can get out of one mold is ever a consideration. :-?


It's got to be, honestly. It might be part of the reason why some of the recent releases like Beast Wars Dinobot and Megatron, along with the Megatron and Shockwave repaints, are so much more expensive. They're either molds that can't really be repainted into anyone else that's worth the effort (Beast Wars Grimlock from Dinobot might be a possibility, though), or the only repaints doable are effectively the same character with a slightly different color scheme, like darker purple Shockwave and toy colors Megatron.

One has to wonder what's taking Takara so long with Masterpiece Jazz, though. He's already got a repaint ready to go with Stepper. They already did Artfire from Inferno, so they need to complete that duo with Stepper, and if they're doing that, of course the more popular Jazz character would come out first. There's got to be some weird licensing issue going on, which would also explain what's taking so long to give us Masterpiece Cliffjumper. On the other hand, isn't Porsche now owned by Volkswagen? They didn't seem to have any problem giving Takara (and Hasbro!) the license to release Masterpiece Bumblebee.
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby ZeroWolf » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:45 pm

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I was just thinking about cliffjumper the other day and almost had myself believing that they already released his mp. I was surprised to learn they hadn't. I wondered if VW had got a bit skittish but then they go and do a deal for the Bumblebee movie. As for Jazz, I would have thought he would have been an early one but then again we are just getting hound :-?
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby Emerje » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:58 pm

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ZeroWolf wrote:But is that mission statement still valid now? I would say that it's possible it has shifted, especially with Beast Wars coming out and the backtrack to get already done characters out there with cartoon accurate decos. Who knows what a change of designers could do? They might decided to focus on the Japanese only series like Headmaster's or Masterforce...okay a mp god ginrai would be awesome, even if thy had to sell it as Super Ginrai and God bomber.

I wouldn't worry too much. While the shift over to cartoon accuracy is a big change it's still the same G1 characters everyone knows. Let's not forget that the design team in charge of Transformers at Takara Tomy aren't the ones that make the final decisions. They still have bosses over them and their bosses probably have bosses, too. A major and potentially costly decision to suddenly ditch the earliest stories start going through the cast of Masterforce would take a hell of a lot of convincing. I can't see that happening, not as the central focus of the line anyway, they could use it to supplement the line like they are Beast Wars, though, but pre-movie G1 will be at the center for the time being.

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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby Wolfman Jake » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:43 am

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So, that kind of brings us back to my original point. Masterpiece IS intended to be a complete G1 line (at some point), but it never actually will be unless Takara changes its mind about doing combiners. Is this a turn off for completionist collectors? Generations doesn't seem to have this problem with not being able to tackle certain characters (from G1, at least). Some of the figures put out have been exceptional. The price is quite a bit lower too. Is it worth it to try to collect the whole of the Masterpiece line when it'll never have certain characters?
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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby Emerje » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:05 am

Motto: "Spellcheck's antithesis."
Weapon: Saw-Edged Pincer
Combiners are really only a small part of the problem. What do you do about mini vehicles that don't necessarily have a real world equivalent like Cosmos and Seaspray? Making Bumblebee's VW Bug mode a little smaller scale than the rest of the MP cars is one thing, but what about the tiny robots that turn into massive alt modes? I don't know how they'll pull that off in MP. Or what about Powerglide, how do you make him work with both bot scale and still make him look OK next to the Seekers? I'll really be surprised if these three are ever given the MP treatment.

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Re: Masterpiece: The Looming Problem

Postby ZeroWolf » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:10 am

Motto: "My past no longer binds my future..."
Weapon: Battle Blades
Broadside will also never get an mp along that thinking ;-) actually this could be the case for Astrotrain and Blitzwing
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