The Energon Pub

Sabrblade wrote:

SentinelA wrote:Really? Jhiaxus is a stupid repaint of Armada Starscream? I'm underwhelmed.

That's a lot more than a "stupid repaint":

New head, new wings, new torso cockpit, new chest vents, new tailfins, maybe even more.

Even though I know nothing about this character this is a very interesting figure. Looks great and is definitely more than a repaint.

shockblast2 wrote:The mold use makes no sense. Hasbro changed the whole deluxe size class two years ago for cost cutting to reduce plastic use. It doesn't make sense that they would reuse one of the molds they did away with for that very reason? The GDO stuff was for the Asian market and when it was sold here at TRU it was at a premium for a time. For them to reuse this mold with the smae price point is baffling. That is why I think this is a hoax.

On the other side of that coin, Hasbro has already developed the mold and used it three times in retail releases (The TFCC stuff doesn't count, at least not in the same way). This saves a lot of money of the R&D costs of creating new figures based off of that mold. Hasbro (and Takara Tomy) make better profits off of a mold if they can use it a second, or even third or forth time, because the original research and development costs don't detract from a new use of that mold on its bottom line. This retool/repaint of RTS Jazz as Nightbeat requires only a new head (maybe) and those new searchlights. That's a LOT less money than designing and engineering whole new figure, not to mention building the new molds needed to cast the pieces required. Also, remember that unlike Takara Tomy, Hasbro allocates resources based on assortment case instead of individual figures. That allows for inclusion of new tooling or more extensive paint apps on a figure that needs them if they can be shipped with a simpler to produce figure to offset the cost. Together, these considerations can probably offset any additional money spent on additional plastic to produce a slightly larger deluxe figure for this assortment. So, it's really not that outrageous of a move for Hasbro to make.

It could just be the start of a return to "normal" size deluxes.

Shadowstream wrote:And I don't know why anyone should care about Wingblade.

Funny how quick people are to judge something completely new isn't it?

Mkall wrote:

Shadowstream wrote:And I don't know why anyone should care about Wingblade.

Funny how quick people are to judge something completely new isn't it?

New BAD! Change BAD!

Jingly jangly keys make Oog feel all better.

i for one am exited to see this new windblade figure it could be really cool or it could really suck either way i still want it

Bounti76 wrote:I call bull***t on this... For several reasons. (...) I can't see Hasbro going back to a nearly 4-year old mold

Meanwhile, Armada toys retooled and redecoed in Cybertron, three-to-five years after the Armada toyline ran its course.

P.S: There were six retools and redecoes for "mainline figures" and over twenty Minicons.

2. Jhiaxus' coloring looks nothing like any recent version of the character.

It's an homage to RiD Jhiaxus.

3. Windblade isn't due until the finish of the Thrilling 30 line, from all indications and announcements by Hasbro.

Since this is the sixth wave for Thrilling 30, I'd imagine we're at the end of the toyline.

And if you look closely at the drawing here, she has Prime Arcee's arms (complete with the same forearm spikes, and even the same hands) and torso. Only the head, wings and legs are different. Not to mention that the head only marginally resembles the images of her we've seen so far.

This helps your argument how? Toys have been drastically retooled in the past.

Also, if they manage to pull that off with Windblade, then I will be quite impressed.

4. The RTS Jazz mold is too old to use (my opinion) for a line like Thrilling 30,

What makes Thrilling 30 superior to any other line that has used old molds for new toys?

Maybe I'm in denial, because these are ugly, but these seem fake. Besides, Windblade was revealed to be #30 out of 30 for the "Thrilling 30" special releases, and the next wave of Deluxes would be WAY too soon for that unless they go on a tear releasing stuff in the next few months. I'm calling BS on these images until further notice.

Wingblade can still be 30/30 and released any time in 2014. Nothing says Hasbro has to release the entire line-up of their special 30 figures in numerical order.

I'm not buying this until we see official pics. If this is what we're getting, I'm really disappointed. Jhiaxus has been used too much by IDW and those of us waiting for a proper G2 Jhiaxus for 20 years didn't wait this long just to see Armada Starscream turned into Jhiaxus. I thought for sure we'd get a decent Jhiaxus finally, especially since he made an unnecessary appearance in Regeneration which seemed really forced (or poorly executed). Nightbeat from Jazz could be alright with a new head and new accessories, but if it's just a repaint of Jazz then that's a bummer. I've already got a Nightbeat toy from the Club with a half assed head repainted from Energon Hot Shot. As for getting Windblade before a proper G1 styled Arcee toy? Urgh.

For those convinced that this is just photoshopped from existing stock art of the Jazz mold, none of that mold's releases had stock art in that position:











Granted, the United Jazz art is pretty darn close to the pose of this Nightbeat art, but the left arms are positioned slightly different from each other, the right legs are bent at different degrees, and the right arms are pointing the gun in two different directions.

And there's also the new head and lights that aren't based on any existing design:

I thought it was MechiDeas Longblast, but nope, you're right, the pics are different (although posed very similarly)

Maybe this isn't a hoax?

Banjo-Tron wrote:I thought it was MechiDeas Longblast, but nope, you're right, the pics are different (although posed very similarly)

Maybe this isn't a hoax?

The position of the figure in the pics proves nothing. No disrespect to Sabrblade, but this is a silly way to try to prove that these pics are real.

Wolfman Jake wrote:

shockblast2 wrote:The mold use makes no sense. Hasbro changed the whole deluxe size class two years ago for cost cutting to reduce plastic use. It doesn't make sense that they would reuse one of the molds they did away with for that very reason? The GDO stuff was for the Asian market and when it was sold here at TRU it was at a premium for a time. For them to reuse this mold with the smae price point is baffling. That is why I think this is a hoax.

On the other side of that coin, Hasbro has already developed the mold and used it three times in retail releases (The TFCC stuff doesn't count, at least not in the same way). This saves a lot of money of the R&D costs of creating new figures based off of that mold. Hasbro (and Takara Tomy) make better profits off of a mold if they can use it a second, or even third or forth time, because the original research and development costs don't detract from a new use of that mold on its bottom line. This retool/repaint of RTS Jazz as Nightbeat requires only a new head (maybe) and those new searchlights. That's a LOT less money than designing and engineering whole new figure, not to mention building the new molds needed to cast the pieces required. Also, remember that unlike Takara Tomy, Hasbro allocates resources based on assortment case instead of individual figures. That allows for inclusion of new tooling or more extensive paint apps on a figure that needs them if they can be shipped with a simpler to produce figure to offset the cost. Together, these considerations can probably offset any additional money spent on additional plastic to produce a slightly larger deluxe figure for this assortment. So, it's really not that outrageous of a move for Hasbro to make.

Yes, they save 60K to 100K for a new mold, but that is not a factor. Resin prices are. And having a figure that weighs 2x more than the current deluxes with resin sitting at about .70 per lb makes no sense. They would lose an insane amount on raw material cost.

I actually work as an accountant for a plastic manufacturer here in the US. We don't make toys, but they are similar to what we produce. And raw material is always the #1 factor in the decision to make a product. Especially when we are talking about a largely obscure character like Nightbeat. Only people like us would buy it for the most part. Again, I am not saying that these are 100% fakes, but I am highly suspicious. I guess we will find out soon when they do their reveals in the coming month.

shockblast2 wrote:

Wolfman Jake wrote:

shockblast2 wrote:The mold use makes no sense. Hasbro changed the whole deluxe size class two years ago for cost cutting to reduce plastic use. It doesn't make sense that they would reuse one of the molds they did away with for that very reason? The GDO stuff was for the Asian market and when it was sold here at TRU it was at a premium for a time. For them to reuse this mold with the smae price point is baffling. That is why I think this is a hoax.

On the other side of that coin, Hasbro has already developed the mold and used it three times in retail releases (The TFCC stuff doesn't count, at least not in the same way). This saves a lot of money of the R&D costs of creating new figures based off of that mold. Hasbro (and Takara Tomy) make better profits off of a mold if they can use it a second, or even third or forth time, because the original research and development costs don't detract from a new use of that mold on its bottom line. This retool/repaint of RTS Jazz as Nightbeat requires only a new head (maybe) and those new searchlights. That's a LOT less money than designing and engineering whole new figure, not to mention building the new molds needed to cast the pieces required. Also, remember that unlike Takara Tomy, Hasbro allocates resources based on assortment case instead of individual figures. That allows for inclusion of new tooling or more extensive paint apps on a figure that needs them if they can be shipped with a simpler to produce figure to offset the cost. Together, these considerations can probably offset any additional money spent on additional plastic to produce a slightly larger deluxe figure for this assortment. So, it's really not that outrageous of a move for Hasbro to make.

Yes, they save 60K to 100K for a new mold, but that is not a factor. Resin prices are. And having a figure that weighs 2x more than the current deluxes with resin sitting at about .70 per lb makes no sense. They would lose an insane amount on raw material cost.

I actually work as an accountant for a plastic manufacturer here in the US. We don't make toys, but they are similar to what we produce. And raw material is always the #1 factor in the decision to make a product. Especially when we are talking about a largely obscure character like Nightbeat. Only people like us would buy it for the most part. Again, I am not saying that these are 100% fakes, but I am highly suspicious. I guess we will find out soon when they do their reveals in the coming month.

They did use the mold last Christmas for that gift set box.

Where did you get the $60,000 to $100,000 figure?

shockblast2 wrote:

Wolfman Jake wrote:

shockblast2 wrote:The mold use makes no sense. Hasbro changed the whole deluxe size class two years ago for cost cutting to reduce plastic use. It doesn't make sense that they would reuse one of the molds they did away with for that very reason? The GDO stuff was for the Asian market and when it was sold here at TRU it was at a premium for a time. For them to reuse this mold with the smae price point is baffling. That is why I think this is a hoax.

On the other side of that coin, Hasbro has already developed the mold and used it three times in retail releases (The TFCC stuff doesn't count, at least not in the same way). This saves a lot of money of the R&D costs of creating new figures based off of that mold. Hasbro (and Takara Tomy) make better profits off of a mold if they can use it a second, or even third or forth time, because the original research and development costs don't detract from a new use of that mold on its bottom line. This retool/repaint of RTS Jazz as Nightbeat requires only a new head (maybe) and those new searchlights. That's a LOT less money than designing and engineering whole new figure, not to mention building the new molds needed to cast the pieces required. Also, remember that unlike Takara Tomy, Hasbro allocates resources based on assortment case instead of individual figures. That allows for inclusion of new tooling or more extensive paint apps on a figure that needs them if they can be shipped with a simpler to produce figure to offset the cost. Together, these considerations can probably offset any additional money spent on additional plastic to produce a slightly larger deluxe figure for this assortment. So, it's really not that outrageous of a move for Hasbro to make.

Yes, they save 60K to 100K for a new mold, but that is not a factor. Resin prices are. And having a figure that weighs 2x more than the current deluxes with resin sitting at about .70 per lb makes no sense. They would lose an insane amount on raw material cost.

I actually work as an accountant for a plastic manufacturer here in the US. We don't make toys, but they are similar to what we produce. And raw material is always the #1 factor in the decision to make a product. Especially when we are talking about a largely obscure character like Nightbeat. Only people like us would buy it for the most part. Again, I am not saying that these are 100% fakes, but I am highly suspicious. I guess we will find out soon when they do their reveals in the coming month.

They did use the mold last Christmas for that gift set box.

Where did you get the $60,000 to $100,000 figure?

Why would Red Mercury, a reliable source, post made up images?

Sabrblade wrote:Why would Red Mercury, a reliable source, post made up images?

Plus, there's that leaked master list that leaked months ago that have accurately revealed many figures over the past few months, Jhiaxus (and Nightbeat, if I'm not mistaken) being part of it.

Despite the Negative Nancies and Debbie Downers, I think all 3 of these are going to be good!

GuyIncognito wrote:Despite the Negative Nancies and Debbie Downers, I think all 3 of these are going to be good!

Agreed. Though I might wait on Jhiaxus and see if Takara does a more classic-friendly deco, if this turns out to be the final. But who knows, like I said, this deco could be prototype colors for all we know.

We got about a week until the British Toy Fair, where we'll be seeing butt-tons of Age of Extinction and Generations. I'm more than certain we'll see these three there.

If Takara doesn't come through with a "comic accurate" deco for Jhiaxus, I'm sure the TFCC will at some point. Or maybe Hasbro will solicit a store exclusive version with his G2 deco as another figure in their special 30 releases for the 30th anniversary? Make the diehard collectors pay a premium price for a premium paint job and push out a simpler color layout for the mass release version? Stranger things have happened.

njb902 wrote:

shockblast2 wrote:

Wolfman Jake wrote:

shockblast2 wrote:The mold use makes no sense. Hasbro changed the whole deluxe size class two years ago for cost cutting to reduce plastic use. It doesn't make sense that they would reuse one of the molds they did away with for that very reason? The GDO stuff was for the Asian market and when it was sold here at TRU it was at a premium for a time. For them to reuse this mold with the smae price point is baffling. That is why I think this is a hoax.

On the other side of that coin, Hasbro has already developed the mold and used it three times in retail releases (The TFCC stuff doesn't count, at least not in the same way). This saves a lot of money of the R&D costs of creating new figures based off of that mold. Hasbro (and Takara Tomy) make better profits off of a mold if they can use it a second, or even third or forth time, because the original research and development costs don't detract from a new use of that mold on its bottom line. This retool/repaint of RTS Jazz as Nightbeat requires only a new head (maybe) and those new searchlights. That's a LOT less money than designing and engineering whole new figure, not to mention building the new molds needed to cast the pieces required. Also, remember that unlike Takara Tomy, Hasbro allocates resources based on assortment case instead of individual figures. That allows for inclusion of new tooling or more extensive paint apps on a figure that needs them if they can be shipped with a simpler to produce figure to offset the cost. Together, these considerations can probably offset any additional money spent on additional plastic to produce a slightly larger deluxe figure for this assortment. So, it's really not that outrageous of a move for Hasbro to make.

Yes, they save 60K to 100K for a new mold, but that is not a factor. Resin prices are. And having a figure that weighs 2x more than the current deluxes with resin sitting at about .70 per lb makes no sense. They would lose an insane amount on raw material cost.

I actually work as an accountant for a plastic manufacturer here in the US. We don't make toys, but they are similar to what we produce. And raw material is always the #1 factor in the decision to make a product. Especially when we are talking about a largely obscure character like Nightbeat. Only people like us would buy it for the most part. Again, I am not saying that these are 100% fakes, but I am highly suspicious. I guess we will find out soon when they do their reveals in the coming month.

They did use the mold last Christmas for that gift set box.

Where did you get the $60,000 to $100,000 figure?

It is a rough estimate based on what we pay for molds minus frieght. The molds for TF's are smaller so they might be cheaper. However, they incorporate much more detail than the ones we use, so I would assume with those factors the prices are in that range. And when they just retool a head, much cheaper. Probably 5-10K for one of tht small size.

You also have to factor in that we are buying the mold from China. They have theirs in China. They are most definitely getting better prices than we are. One thing I might add. Sadly molds in the US are vastly more expensive so most do not buy them here. However at least in our case, 9/10 we have to have a tool and die shop rework the molds when they get here because they usually have small but important falws in them. US molds are of way higher quality, at least in my experience. We used to buy them about 7 years ago, but we have since bought and imported all of our molds from China.

Don't forget you have to figure in the development costs of a new mold. So to say they save your "$60,000 to $100,000" is kind of telling only part of the story.

Sabrblade wrote:Why would Red Mercury, a reliable source, post made up images?

Just to fill the spot I guess? I don't know. I never said I was 100% that these are fake. Maybe they got a deal on resin this quarter and are really going to produce what you see? Or maybe thier mold cost has increased significantly and that paired with a good deal on resin made it cost effective to use Jazz once more for Nightbeat? These are all possibilites. I am sure if this is real then Hasbros accountants ran the numbers to make sure they were getting the profit margin this product demands. The only things I can say for certainty is that #1 I think this would stick out like a sore thumb in my IDW collection so I will pass if it is real. I will say that if you have a CHUG collection this is a cool unexpected addition to that all but dead line. #2 That if this Nightbeat is real then Hasbro is making money and the factors mentioned above came into play.

I will say this people. If the mold costs did increase, expect price hikes on future TF's, especially for TF4. You mght score a $10-12 prce on deluxes, but voyagers aka the Dinobots (which is what most of us want from that line) will be $25 easy. Sadly, even if it were that price I would pay it. Simply because they are going to be cool. But I would want a stranger to kick my ass for it just for drooling while my wallet is screaming at me for the highway robbery that is my hobby.

njb902 wrote:Don't forget you have to figure in the development costs of a new mold. So to say they save your "$60,000 to $100,000" is kind of telling only part of the story.

Sure, but I wasn't trying to tell a complete story. The original guy who brought this up only mentioned molds and that is what I used as a comparable cost. Of course even if you total up all other associated costs they will not exceed resin. I simply put forward that raw material cost is the #1 factor when producing a product in the plastic injection mold business. That is a fact. You have to understand how many millions of pounds they would consume in raw material costs. If they used a million last year, which I would think they used much more than that, but a million woud be $70 million at todays rate. And I saw it ihit .87 last year. If molds and development outweighs resin then why did they change their sizes at all? Why did they leave embarassing gaps in the arms and feet of every new deluxe since 2011? Youu have to consider the varibale costs MUCH more than fixed. Molds and salaries for designers are much more predictable costs and thus are not major factors. Resin is very much so. Colorant is another. Ever wonder why you get so much grey parts on yout TF's anymore? Especially in the movie lines? Grey is the cheapest colorant we use. What is the most expesive? Clear colored plastic. Why? You cannot use recycled material (densified) in it like you can the rest. That is another reason why these price increases burn me so much. Not only are thye using less resin, they are blending recycled plastic melted down and blended with prime resin. Way cheaper. And in the long run your TF's will be much more brittle and color faded than previous generations. But yes, any clear colored parts, like windows or some of the kre-o pieces are your best quality because they can't use this stuff in it.