The Energon Pub

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

T-Macksimus wrote:Sorry, I shifted into Engineering mode without really thinking about it. Just drawing parallels in my own mind that I can relate the situation too. While I am technically not an engineer or designer (I'm actually a High End Cabinet Finisher by trade) I have training in machining and blueprints and I have also done cabinet design/layout/construction. I just had a 'geek' moment there. I hadn't meant to lose you.
You can just nod and say "Sure, it's exactly like what you said" and we'll just move on to something else. Nobody will be the wiser.

Maybe I sold one of your cabinets, I "WAS" a retail manager for Homedepot before my illness.

I handled all sorts of Kitchen and Bath room designs and custom orders.

I'm mostly an independent/custom guy. I did work for a company called Canyon Creek Cabinets years back and I believe they may distribute through Home Depot, but I don't like to talk about my CC days. I know my local Home Depot doesn't like me going through their cabinet showroom anymore because I spot all the flaws in their displays instantly and I am not usually very quiet about it either. When I was married it used to emberass the heck out of my wife when we went through HD or furniture stores because I couldn't/ wouldn't keep my mouth shut and took great pleasure in making the Furniture guys look foolish. I couldn't do that at HD because they knew their product lines pretty good and I knew they werent the guys making the stuff but the Furniture boys were on commision and trying to BS the wrong customer.

T-Macksimus wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

T-Macksimus wrote:Sorry, I shifted into Engineering mode without really thinking about it. Just drawing parallels in my own mind that I can relate the situation too. While I am technically not an engineer or designer (I'm actually a High End Cabinet Finisher by trade) I have training in machining and blueprints and I have also done cabinet design/layout/construction. I just had a 'geek' moment there. I hadn't meant to lose you.
You can just nod and say "Sure, it's exactly like what you said" and we'll just move on to something else. Nobody will be the wiser.

Maybe I sold one of your cabinets, I "WAS" a retail manager for Homedepot before my illness.

I handled all sorts of Kitchen and Bath room designs and custom orders.

I'm mostly an independent/custom guy. I did work for a company called Canyon Creek Cabinets years back and I believe they may distribute through Home Depot, but I don't like to talk about my CC days. I know my local Home Depot doesn't like me going through their cabinet showroom anymore because I spot all the flaws in their displays instantly and I am not usually very quiet about it either. When I was married it used to emberass the heck out of my wife when we went through HD or furniture stores because I couldn't/ wouldn't keep my mouth shut and took great pleasure in making the Furniture guys look foolish. I couldn't do that at HD because they knew their product lines pretty good and I knew they werent the guys making the stuff but the Furniture boys were on commision and trying to BS the wrong customer.

Yes we did sell Canyon Creek Cabinets but under out special order program.

Nice stuff.

I do remember hearing a Botcon announcement or something along those lines that said Primus, Unicron, and the 13 were singularities, but I noticed that Alpha-Trion looks a little evil looking in the SG universe which is why I'm curious as to what The Fallen looks like in Shattered Glass.

They say he can't be like a robo-Jesus, but if Alpha-Trion is evil in Shattered Glass then would Fallen be good?

robofreak wrote:I do remember hearing a Botcon announcement or something along those lines that said Primus, Unicron, and the 13 were singularities, but I noticed that Alpha-Trion looks a little evil looking in the SG universe which is why I'm curious as to what The Fallen looks like in Shattered Glass.

They say he can't be like a robo-Jesus, but if Alpha-Trion is evil in Shattered Glass then would Fallen be good?

Alpha-Trion is like Yoda, very old, very powerful, but not one of the original 13. That's why he has multiple versions of himself across the multiverse.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Alpha_Trion_%28S ... d_Glass%29

thats what i've read on it

Counterpunch wrote:

robofreak wrote:I do remember hearing a Botcon announcement or something along those lines that said Primus, Unicron, and the 13 were singularities, but I noticed that Alpha-Trion looks a little evil looking in the SG universe which is why I'm curious as to what The Fallen looks like in Shattered Glass.

They say he can't be like a robo-Jesus, but if Alpha-Trion is evil in Shattered Glass then would Fallen be good?

Alpha-Trion is like Yoda, very old, very powerful, but not one of the original 13. That's why he has multiple versions of himself across the multiverse.

In the cartoon they never mentioned an "original 13" but Alpha Trion did say he was one of the original Transformers as part of his exsplination for why he could access Vector Sigma without the use of the key. But it could be that the original 13 simply don't exsist in the cartoon universe. Still it is argueable weather or not he's one of them.

Rial Vestro wrote:In the cartoon they never mentioned an "original 13" but Alpha Trion did say he was one of the original Transformers as part of his exsplination for why he could access Vector Sigma without the use of the key.

Not exactly correct.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:In the cartoon they never mentioned an "original 13" but Alpha Trion did say he was one of the original Transformers as part of his exsplination for why he could access Vector Sigma without the use of the key.

Not exactly correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5KfwGXS ... U5ZxFXpEXM

Is exactly correct.

I never said I quoteing him word for word but he did say he was a first generation transformer which is the same as saying one of the original transformers.

Rial Vestro wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:In the cartoon they never mentioned an "original 13" but Alpha Trion did say he was one of the original Transformers as part of his exsplination for why he could access Vector Sigma without the use of the key.

Not exactly correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5KfwGXS ... U5ZxFXpEXM

Is exactly correct.

I never said I quoteing him word for word but he did say he was a first generation transformer which is the same as saying one of the original transformers.

in the cartoon wasn't alpha trion also shown as young after the first transformer learned the art of transformation after many generations...

i'mma a go look this up...

*edit* the confusion comes from:

Alpha Trion was one of the first generation Cybertronians created by Vector Sigma. Because of this, his own circuitry also functioned as a key and would allow him to interface with Vector Sigma on his own. He did just that, sacrificing his own body in order to compel Vector Sigma to imbue life into the Aerialbots to counter Megatron's new troops.

and

When Primus first created Cybertron, he created a crew of thirteen living robotic beings to man him. These beings, in imitation of Unicron's transformation abilities, were able to change their forms into the likeness of vehicles, weapons, and machinery. They were the first Transformers and all "Primes". Many of the thirteen died in a cataclysmic first battle with Unicron, where he was sucked down into a black hole and trapped along with his acolyte known as The Fallen, one of the thirteen who had turned against his brothers and joined Unicron. Of those that survived, many abandoned their original functions and were lost to time. Only Vector Prime was known to still be following the path he was set upon by Primus.

so that opens the whole vecto sigma/ primus/ oracle debate...

Rial Vestro wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:In the cartoon they never mentioned an "original 13" but Alpha Trion did say he was one of the original Transformers as part of his exsplination for why he could access Vector Sigma without the use of the key.

Not exactly correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5KfwGXS ... U5ZxFXpEXM

Is exactly correct.

No its not.

Rial Vestro wrote:I never said I quoteing him word for word but he did say he was a first generation transformer which is the same as saying one of the original transformers.

No it is not.

It doesnt mater if you were "quoting him word for word" or not.

You claimed that Alpha said he was one of the first and the truth is he never said that.

He said he was part of the first generation but he never said wether he was early in that generation of late in it.A generation can have millions opon million of individuals.

To say he was a "first generation product of vegta sigma" is to say he could have be number 100000000000000 ever made.....and he could have been the last of that generation.

Besides........we've seen autobots that were older then him.So its resonable to conclude that vector sigma didnt greate the very first TFs.

It is in no way to say he was one of the first.

You need to widen your interpertations.

Here's something to consider.

Primus, Unicron, and the 13 may be singularities, but isn't it possible that they may in fact act differently according to the universe that they are in?

Apparently I was wrong in thinking that Alpha-Trion was one of the 13. I guess that means we need to wait for some writers to overhaul the story a little. TF's have had so many plot changes that don't make sense so I wouldn't be surprised is he is one of the 13.

robofreak wrote:Here's something to consider.

Primus, Unicron, and the 13 may be singularities, but isn't it possible that they may in fact act differently according to the universe that they are in?

I guess thats possible

Apparently I was wrong in thinking that Alpha-Trion was one of the 13. I guess that means we need to wait for some writers to overhaul the story a little. TF's have had so many plot changes that don't make sense so I wouldn't be surprised is he is one of the 13.

I wouldnt say you were wrong.

Alpha trion hasnt been confirmed or denied as one of the 13.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:In the cartoon they never mentioned an "original 13" but Alpha Trion did say he was one of the original Transformers as part of his exsplination for why he could access Vector Sigma without the use of the key.

Not exactly correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5KfwGXS ... U5ZxFXpEXM

Is exactly correct.

No its not.

Rial Vestro wrote:I never said I quoteing him word for word but he did say he was a first generation transformer which is the same as saying one of the original transformers.

No it is not.

It doesnt mater if you were "quoting him word for word" or not.

You claimed that Alpha said he was one of the first and the truth is he never said that.

He said he was part of the first generation but he never said wether he was early in that generation of late in it.A generation can have millions opon million of individuals.

To say he was a "first generation product of vegta sigma" is to say he could have be number 100000000000000 ever made.....and he could have been the last of that generation.

Besides........we've seen autobots that were older then him.So its resonable to conclude that vector sigma didnt greate the very first TFs.

It is in no way to say he was one of the first.

You need to widen your interpertations.

Even if all that is true doesn't make it any less fact. As I stated before the "original 13" was never brought up in the cartoon universe. In a universe where the 13 do exsist they and they alone would be the "first generation" transformers. The simple matter is we don't know how many transformers in the cartoon universe were from the same generation of transformers as Alpha Trion and how many there are really doesn't make any difference what so ever. It would if I claimed he was THE first transformer but I never said that. I only said that he was ONE OF the first Transformers which if he's a first generation Transformer is 100% true.

OK I was going to post this a while ago but got destracted and forgot about it.

The whole "Primus and Unicron" singularity thing. This would mean that Armada/Energon Unicron is the same guy as G1 Unicron rather than a different universe interpretation of him. I don't see how this is possible.

G1 Unicron was a verry simple character. He romed the universe eating planets and was destroyed by the Matrix.

Armada Unicron was a verry complex character. He some how feed on vibes of hate for lack of a better way to scribe it and hide himself as Cybertron's moon. This version of Unicron was defeated simply by ending the war and resurrected with lots and lots of Energon.

While G1 Unicron was actully a character in his own right A/E Unicron I feel spent most of his time as a set piece or a prop than a character.

Heck even though there was a Matrix in Armada there was no association with it and Unicron's destruction.

So how by any means are these two the same character?

Just like any other character in the Transformers universe Primus and Unicron do have multiple interpretations. In most cases neither one of them even exsist. To really be a singularity I would think that they would have to exsist in every universe as the exact same characters they were first introduced as.

Or I'm just really confused as this was just my attempt to figure out what the heck you mean by the term "singularity".

Added note, I've actully created a character before who has no multiple dimention counterparts but rather he exsists outside of time and space in a version of "limbo" (another word that has been redified a thousand times) and because of his exsistance in limbo he can exsist everywhere at once. Not duplicates but just one single entity. And this was my basis of understanding whatever it is you MAY be talking about with Primus and Unicron. (Interdimentionalman as I call him is a guardian of time and space who was originally created as a villain but in later years I began to invision him as more of a missunderstood hero. Sorta like Q from Star Trek.)

The Unicron battle in the 86' movie took place across all dimensions. The Battle in Armada was taking place in one dimension while the battle in the G1 story arc was taking place.

There are probably several other battles that were taking place at the same time against Unicron, but I don't know them all off the top of my head.

Oh, I think Beast Wars Neo was another one.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Unicron_Singularity

i stick by the 13 originals were made by Primus

Alpha trion was made by vector sigma. there is a difference

robofreak wrote:The Unicron battle in the 86' movie took place across all dimensions. The Battle in Armada was taking place in one dimension while the battle in the G1 story arc was taking place.

There are probably several other battles that were taking place at the same time against Unicron, but I don't know them all off the top of my head.

Oh, I think Beast Wars Neo was another one.

Who comes up with this stuff?

Tekka wrote:

robofreak wrote:The Unicron battle in the 86' movie took place across all dimensions. The Battle in Armada was taking place in one dimension while the battle in the G1 story arc was taking place.

There are probably several other battles that were taking place at the same time against Unicron, but I don't know them all off the top of my head.

Oh, I think Beast Wars Neo was another one.

Who comes up with this stuff?

Stoners...

From the information on that site it doesn't say anything about G1 and A/E Unicrons being the same but rather that A/E Unicron turned into a Black Hole that was the same black hole in the cartoon and comic book universe. (I've seen verry little of the Armada comics but from what I have seen this makes sence as an alternate universe. Overload was actully a character who talked in the comic insted of a random weapon that Optimus combined with in the series.)

The Unicron Singularity is a spatial-temporal anomaly that crosses many (possibly all) realities in the Unicron Trilogy continuity family.

and

To undertake this seemingly overwhelming task, Unicron is able to travel across realities at will

while it was never written in plain english its clear enough to make the connection. and the whole only 1 unicron thing would seal the deal.

granted this is a little more open ended than i like for an answer, but its 3 am, i should be asleep

Rial Vestro wrote:
Even if all that is true doesn't make it any less fact.

The hell it doesnt.

Your original claim was that Alpha Trion called himself one of the "FIRST" transformers.

He never made such a claim.

You were wrong.Face it.

Rial Vestro wrote: As I stated before the "original 13" was never brought up in the cartoon universe. In a universe where the 13 do exsist they and they alone would be the "first generation" transformers. The simple matter is we don't know how many transformers in the cartoon universe were from the same generation of transformers as Alpha Trion and how many there are really doesn't make any difference what so ever. It would if I claimed he was THE first transformer but I never said that. I only said that he was ONE OF the first Transformers which if he's a first generation Transformer is 100% true.

Nonsense.

If he was the last of a hundred million he was far from one of the first.

And either way I didnt question the idea that he was one of the first, I questioned your claim that Alpha described himself as such.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:
Even if all that is true doesn't make it any less fact.

The hell it doesnt.

Your original claim was that Alpha Trion called himself one of the "FIRST" transformers.

He never made such a claim.

You were wrong.Face it.

He did make the claim. One of the first Transformers and First Generation Transformer is the same thing. It doesn't matter how he worded the claim he still made it. The only way that claim would be fause is if I said he was THE first Transformer which I never did.

Rial Vestro wrote: As I stated before the "original 13" was never brought up in the cartoon universe. In a universe where the 13 do exsist they and they alone would be the "first generation" transformers. The simple matter is we don't know how many transformers in the cartoon universe were from the same generation of transformers as Alpha Trion and how many there are really doesn't make any difference what so ever. It would if I claimed he was THE first transformer but I never said that. I only said that he was ONE OF the first Transformers which if he's a first generation Transformer is 100% true.

Nonsense.

If he was the last of a hundred million he was far from one of the first.

And either way I didnt question the idea that he was one of the first, I questioned your claim that Alpha described himself as such.

He did in fact describe himself as such. I even posted a video link earlier showing him saying that he was a first generation Transformer. And if he is as you say "far from being one of the first" then he is not a first generation transformer.

If you want to think of it from a human perspective. Someone who belives the Adam and Eve origin thoughs 2 people would be the first generation of the human race. Their children are the second generation and so on. Adam and Eve were both the first 2 humans and the first generation of humans. Granted I don't belive in that origin for humanity but it's the easiest example to use.

Now if you belive that there were only 13 original Transformers thoughs 13 would be the first generation Transformers and whatever transformers they created would be the second generation transformers and so on.

So for Alpha Trion to be a first genration Transformer he'd have to be one of the original transformers. Weather you want to belive he was made by Primus or the Quintessons he was one of the first.

RIAL- the line you are refering to is "I am a first generation product of vector sigma..." yes he says he's a first generation. he doesn't claim to be one of the first. Your analogy is closer to "I came in between 1 and 492nd in a race. its near the front."

first generation made by vector sigma, yes. The first transformer - never says.

and in shattered glass (technically the topic) there is no vector sigma. it has a different name, but i cant think of it.

Well, Name_Violation just explained it. The 13 were created by Primus. Alpha-Trion was one of the first production pieces of Vector Sigma. I'm sure A3's serial number is located where he doesn't want us looking so we can leave at that.

Short of the comic writers thwoing out a whole lot of weird logic in an attempt to explain how he could be a member of the 13, it's safe to assume he isn't.

This still leads me to question how the 13 and the gods would behave in the Shattered Glass universe. It's apparent that they are singularities, but I do wonder if the act differently in order to satisfy the rules of a particular universe.

Rial Vestro wrote:
He did make the claim.

No he did not.

Saying "one of the first generation" and saying "one of the first tf's" are not the same thing.

The first is open to interpretation because we dont know how many were produced, the other is a "matter of fact" statement.

And thats why I said your original comment wasnt "exactly right".

Because Alpha's statement can be "MADE" to fit the idea that he was one of the first TF's........but its far from a direct admission.

Rial Vestro wrote: One of the first Transformers and First Generation Transformer is the same thing.

Nonsense.

Rial Vestro wrote: It doesn't matter how he worded the claim

sure it does

Rial Vestro wrote: he still made it.

and again no he didnt

Rial Vestro wrote: The only way that claim would be fause is if I said he was THE first Transformer which I never did.

You said Alpha called himself an original transformer..........and he didnt.

He called himself a first generation product......theres no reason to assume that specificly means he was one of the first.

Rial Vestro wrote:He did in fact describe himself as such. I even posted a video link earlier showing him saying that he was a first generation Transformer.

Which is not describing himself as "on of the first tf's".

First generation in a product line does not mean one of the first from the manufacture.

Rial Vestro wrote: And if he is as you say "far from being one of the first" then he is not a first generation transformer.

Nonsense.

You have no concept about manufacturing goods and retail sales.

And remember.......thats what the TF's were originally.

The first Generation would have consisted of millions of units created for retail sale.

Not to mention the fact that even before that first generation was put into production a small amount of prototypes would have been created as "promos" and displays models.