The Energon Pub

autobot comander wrote:you can talk to anything, they just might not responed

Animals respond when you talk to them. They might not respond with words but they look at you, and either come up to you and be effectionate, or run away, or bite your head off.

My cats know their individual names, and respond differently when i call them.

Sonray wrote:

Justicity wrote:

Insurgent wrote:An animal is sentient, so it has a soul. As for plants, we can't say unless you can talk to one.

How do you test for sentience? Where do you draw the line?
How do we know animals are sentient if we can't talk to them either?

Animals have personalities, which means they have souls. If you are just a mindless drone, organic or not, with no sense of logic or right or wrong you have no soul.

Thats my take on the matter of what has a soul and what doesnt.

Just look at your pets. My cats for example, are dumb animals but they both show different signs of behaviour and personalities. I love them both dearly, and they love me.


....ok this thread will have to be moved into the philosophers section soon if we arent careful lol.

Too true, & as a philosophy student I think I could get quite heated XD So I'm going to stop now.

you can talk to your toys and they can respond be pinching you when you transformers them

autobot comander wrote:you can talk to your toys and they can respond be pinching you when you transformers them

It's affectionate ^^

Justicity wrote:

autobot comander wrote:you can talk to your toys and they can respond be pinching you when you transformers them

It's affectionate ^^

it really happend to me

Tramp wrote:The thing is that it does tie into the movie. In the movie, Prime said he wanted to take the Allspark back to Cybertron to revitalize the planet because the planet itself was dying. He also told Sam that Megatron intended to use the Allspark to bring all of Earth's technology to life in order to create a new army and wipe out himanity. Why would Megatron want do this if he didn't already know that using the Allspark directly on an object would create a soulless killing machine? That is how Robert Orci's stetment ties directly into the movie. The movie gives the real explaination, but no one seemes to have caught it. Instead, they focused on Earth's tech being reverse engineered from Megatron. And all that really means is that we studied him and built our tech from what we learned in that study.

Let's say you are right. If everything created by the Allspark directly does not have a Spark (soul) then all of the Earth made TF's would be nothing more than drones, like most of the Vechicons in Beast Machines. Why would Megatron go though all trouble of finding the Allspark if he just wants drones to build his armies?

Decepticon Spike wrote:

Tramp wrote:The thing is that it does tie into the movie. In the movie, Prime said he wanted to take the Allspark back to Cybertron to revitalize the planet because the planet itself was dying. He also told Sam that Megatron intended to use the Allspark to bring all of Earth's technology to life in order to create a new army and wipe out himanity. Why would Megatron want do this if he didn't already know that using the Allspark directly on an object would create a soulless killing machine? That is how Robert Orci's stetment ties directly into the movie. The movie gives the real explaination, but no one seemes to have caught it. Instead, they focused on Earth's tech being reverse engineered from Megatron. And all that really means is that we studied him and built our tech from what we learned in that study.

Let's say you are right. If everything created by the Allspark directly does not have a Spark (soul) then all of the Earth made TF's would be nothing more than drones, like most of the Vechicons in Beast Machines. Why would Megatron go though all trouble of finding the Allspark if he just wants drones to build his armies?

Because mindless drones are easier to control and impart your will upon. That is why. They're mindless killing mnachines, who will blindly do his derstuctive bidding. They're also expandable. Also, Orci did not say Sparkless, he said soulless, as in without nobility of soul; monsterous, unthinking, killing machines, which is exactly the type of army someone like Megatron would want.

Tramp wrote:

Decepticon Spike wrote:

Tramp wrote:The thing is that it does tie into the movie. In the movie, Prime said he wanted to take the Allspark back to Cybertron to revitalize the planet because the planet itself was dying. He also told Sam that Megatron intended to use the Allspark to bring all of Earth's technology to life in order to create a new army and wipe out himanity. Why would Megatron want do this if he didn't already know that using the Allspark directly on an object would create a soulless killing machine? That is how Robert Orci's stetment ties directly into the movie. The movie gives the real explaination, but no one seemes to have caught it. Instead, they focused on Earth's tech being reverse engineered from Megatron. And all that really means is that we studied him and built our tech from what we learned in that study.

Let's say you are right. If everything created by the Allspark directly does not have a Spark (soul) then all of the Earth made TF's would be nothing more than drones, like most of the Vechicons in Beast Machines. Why would Megatron go though all trouble of finding the Allspark if he just wants drones to build his armies?

Because mindless drones are easier to control and impart your will upon. That is why. They're mindless killing mnachines, who will blindly do his derstuctive bidding. They're also expandable. Also, Orci did not say Sparkless, he said soulless, as in without nobility of soul; monsterous, unthinking, killing machines, which is exactly the type of army someone like Megatron would want.

It has been well established in TF lore that a Spark is the same as a soul, so what Orci says is way outside the realm of what we know about TF's.
As far as Megatron wanting drones, since they are mindless, all he needed to so would be build TF's with little to no AI. I am pretty sure Tf medical science in the movie universe would hav emade that possible.
also, I think Orci needs to define what he means by "without nobility of soul"

Decepticon Spike wrote:
It has been well established in TF lore that a Spark is the same as a soul, so what Orci says is way outside the realm of what we know about TF's.
As far as Megatron wanting drones, since they are mindless, all he needed to so would be build TF's with little to no AI. I am pretty sure Tf medical science in the movie universe would hav emade that possible.
also, I think Orci needs to define what he means by "without nobility of soul"

First off, all TF lore says is that the Spark is the source of life for a Transformer, It is their life force. Nothing in official TF lore calls it a "soul". Regardless, that is not the point anyway. Robert Orci does not say "without a soul" anyway. He says Soulless, which also means without nobility of soul. We often refer to bloodthirsty murderers as soulless killers because they lack nobility of spirit. They're cruel, compassionless, monsters. That is what Orci is referring to. He never says they don't have a spark. He is saying that any object brought to life directly by the Allspark creates mindless, rampaging killing machines because that is not what the Allspark was meant to be used for. It was meant to encourage the growth of life on a planet.

Tramp wrote:

Decepticon Spike wrote:
It has been well established in TF lore that a Spark is the same as a soul, so what Orci says is way outside the realm of what we know about TF's.
As far as Megatron wanting drones, since they are mindless, all he needed to so would be build TF's with little to no AI. I am pretty sure Tf medical science in the movie universe would hav emade that possible.
also, I think Orci needs to define what he means by "without nobility of soul"

First off, all TF lore says is that the Spark is the source of life for a Transformer, It is their life force. Nothing in official TF lore calls it a "soul". Regardless, that is not the point anyway. Robert Orci does not say "without a soul" anyway. He says Soulless, which also means without nobility of soul. We often refer to bloodthirsty murderers as soulless killers because they lack nobility of spirit. They're cruel, compassionless, monsters. That is what Orci is referring to. He never says they don't have a spark. He is saying that any object brought to life directly by the Allspark creates mindless, rampaging killing machines because that is not what the Allspark was meant to be used for. It was meant to encourage the growth of life on a planet.

So, by the example you use, saying a brutal child killer is "soulless" makes it so just because they were not noble? If that was the case, then the vast majority of people on this planet may be considered to be soulless.

Decepticon Spike wrote:
So, by the example you use, saying a brutal child killer is "soulless" makes it so just because they were not noble? If that was the case, then the vast majority of people on this planet may be considered to be soulless.

That's not the same thing. Most people aren't cold-blooded, heartless killers. Most people have a nobility of spirit, they have high morals, and would be abhorrent to mindless slaughter. That is the difference. But, once again, we're getting into philosophy, and that isn't what this discussion is supposed to e about.

i think what was originally meant is that created army would prob have sparks, but are cruel and uncampassionate tfs kinda like the cybertronian empire from g2

Great Atlas wrote:i think what was originally meant is that created army would prob have sparks, but are cruel and uncampassionate tfs kinda like the cybertronian empire from g2

Exactly. If the Allspark is used directly on a machine, it creates monsters. That is what Robert Orci was saying.

Animals ARE sentient.

Just watch the Beast Wars series.

They too, transforms into robot!

ROFLMAO

Tramp wrote:

Decepticon Spike wrote:
So, by the example you use, saying a brutal child killer is "soulless" makes it so just because they were not noble? If that was the case, then the vast majority of people on this planet may be considered to be soulless.

That's not the same thing. Most people aren't cold-blooded, heartless killers. Most people have a nobility of spirit, they have high morals, and would be abhorrent to mindless slaughter. That is the difference. But, once again, we're getting into philosophy, and that isn't what this discussion is supposed to e about.

What are you using to prove that most people have "nobility of spirit" and high morals. What you consider high morals and what another considers may be 2 different things.

Most people don't go ruthlessly slaughtering others in cold blood. Most people have a sense of morality. Even if different cultures value different morals, They all have them. That is nobility of spirit. Then you have viscious killers, sociopaths, back-stabbers, traitors, terrorists, etc. These "people" lack nobilty of spirit. They are soulless. They lack nobility of spirit. Once again though, we are deviating from the main topic.

Tramp wrote: Then you have viscious killers, sociopaths, back-stabbers, traitors, terrorists, etc. These "people" lack nobilty of spirit. They are soulless. They lack nobility of spirit. Once again though, we are deviating from the main topic.

so, from your point of view, the people listed have no soul? I have yet to read of any theological viewpoint that says such a thing.
you are right, we have strayed way off of the original topic. We can continue this debate in PM if you like.

Decepticon Spike wrote:

Tramp wrote: Then you have viscious killers, sociopaths, back-stabbers, traitors, terrorists, etc. These "people" lack nobilty of spirit. They are soulless. They lack nobility of spirit. Once again though, we are deviating from the main topic.

so, from your point of view, the people listed have no soul? I have yet to read of any theological viewpoint that says such a thing.
you are right, we have strayed way off of the original topic. We can continue this debate in PM if you like.

No, that is not what I am sayng. There is a difference between literally having no soul, and being "soulless" in terms of lacking any nobility of spirit.

Come on, guys. Take a break. Have a kit-kat.

Auto Bot wrote:Come on, guys. Take a break. Have a kit-kat.

Wooosah...wooooooosaaaahhh