The Energon Pub

Counterpunch wrote:

Tramp wrote:Secondly, you are ignoring the quote from MtMtE #8...

And you're ignoring this:

Counterpunch wrote:Because someone keeps bringing up MTMTE 8, I'm going to post some of what it says:

"It (the Matrix) is the source of all sparks, and also the place to which they return upon deactivation..."

Interesting point I've just thought up, think about it this way:
The Australopithecus gami (sp) is the source of all human life.
It's true, we evolved from Australopithecus, of course it took many generations, but in essence we were all created because the Australopithecus existed.
Couldn't that be paralleled onto transformers? I'm not saying that they evolved from the Matrix(or Allspark in movie continuity), but maybe the first sparks were born of the Matrix, then these created more sparks, either via creation or via reproduction. These sparks would also owe their existence to the Matrix, however they are not a direct creation of the Matrix.

How does that fit into the discussion? Has it already been suggested? Are we even talking about that anymore? Is it an interesting point? Does it successfully count against the "they all came from the Matrix therefore no reproduction" argument???
Theres my 2 cents ^^ Well, my approx.4p, as I'm British.

Of course it counts. The Matrix is simply a gate to Primus' Spark, which is the true origin and destination of all Sparks. For Protoform created Transformers, the Matrix itself is the primary method of formatting them into full Transformers, but not the only method, nor is Vector Sigma because the Decepticons don't have access to either. Even with the possibility of naturally born Transformers from the union of a male and female, the Spark still comes from Primus, just not through the Matrix directly. It comes from its parent's and their ancestors, ultimately originating through Primus.

Yay, Tramp agrees with me ^^

Tramp wrote:Of course it counts. The Matrix is simply a gate to Primus' Spark, which is the true origin and destination of all Sparks. For Protoform created Transformers, the Matrix itself is the primary method of formatting them into full Transformers, but not the only method, nor is Vector Sigma because the Decepticons don't have access to either. Even with the possibility of naturally born Transformers from the union of a male and female, the Spark still comes from Primus, just not through the Matrix directly. It comes from its parent's and their ancestors, ultimately originating through Primus.

Now THAT'S a theory!
Also, the "make the body first" concept sounds very good, but I still say make it with nano-bots from different Transformers, satisfying the "genetic" component.

Ok, I need to ask you wise seeming lot a question which has been bugging me, and has me a little vexed.

If new bots are created from nanites from two 'parent' bots, and the traits are mixed (like in peoples), how does this work if say a jet and a car fell in love?

What would the new bot look like, a freaky hybrid of the two? Or is one trait dominant (if so eventually there would only be cars or jets right??) OR are the different modes treated as different subspecies of transformer which cannot interbreed? Am I the only one wondering about this?

Since Transformers can change their alt. modes, I don’t think this would be a serious issue. When I said “combining traits”, I meant personality and robot mode characteristics (since their ’bot modes don’t change.)

Another theory; Triple Changers!

Whiner-tron wrote:Another theory; Triple Changers!

That would be AWESOME!

Tangent wrote:Ok, I need to ask you wise seeming lot a question which has been bugging me, and has me a little vexed.

If new bots are created from nanites from two 'parent' bots, and the traits are mixed (like in peoples), how does this work if say a jet and a car fell in love?

What would the new bot look like, a freaky hybrid of the two? Or is one trait dominant (if so eventually there would only be cars or jets right??) OR are the different modes treated as different subspecies of transformer which cannot interbreed? Am I the only one wondering about this?

As for different"species, no, they obvuiously wouldn't be able to interbreed. Could you imagine offsprimg resulting from the union of that female "ravage" clone and, say, Laserbeak? One's "robot mode" is a bird, the other a Jaguar (first Cybertronian, then Earth). They'd be completely incompatible. Two humanoid Transformers, are obviously compatible. As for two indoviduals with completely diferent alternate modes, it is possible that you might end up woth a triple changer, or one trait may be more dominat than the other. Powerglide and Moonracer are lovers. imagine whet their offsprimg might look like.

Tramp wrote:

Tangent wrote:Ok, I need to ask you wise seeming lot a question which has been bugging me, and has me a little vexed.

If new bots are created from nanites from two 'parent' bots, and the traits are mixed (like in peoples), how does this work if say a jet and a car fell in love?

What would the new bot look like, a freaky hybrid of the two? Or is one trait dominant (if so eventually there would only be cars or jets right??) OR are the different modes treated as different subspecies of transformer which cannot interbreed? Am I the only one wondering about this?

As for different"species, no, they obvuiously wouldn't be able to interbreed. Could you imagine offsprimg resulting from the union of that female "ravage" clone and, say, Laserbeak? One's "robot mode" is a bird, the other a Jaguar (first Cybertronian, then Earth). They'd be completely incompatible. Two humanoid Transformers, are obviously compatible. As for two indoviduals with completely diferent alternate modes, it is possible that you might end up woth a triple changer, or one trait may be more dominat than the other. Powerglide and Moonracer are lovers. imagine whet their offsprimg might look like.

See, that's what I was wondering, some like Laserbeak and Ravage as you said I just cannot see working(unless it made a sphinx ) And also the size differences alown would be fairly prohibitive even for some of the humanoid ones. Although, know I think about it, Tracks could be a hybrid, maybe he's like, one eighth jet or something? One more thing that I cannot help but think of is some of the awful colour combinations that may result, eeee.

Well the Female "ravage" I was referring to is Howlback found here: http://www.seibertron.com/database/character.php?view=&char_id=3191 I just didn't know her name. She and Ravage could have offspring, but not she and Laserbeak.

I did not know about her, I like Ravage better though, nicer colours. So, in the whole universe, how many tfs do you recon there are in total? And how many of each subspecies, I assume there must be a fair number of each type to maintain a viable population. (I know they usually build each other and all, but this is more interesting, and would lead to greater variation right?)

I recon that if two differnt types of jets had a um, bot-ling?? then that would work, as they would both be compatable, but the the offspring would be a cross between the two types of jet. Does that make sence? I'm rambling arnt I....

Tangent wrote:I did not know about her, I like Ravage better though, nicer colours. So, in the whole universe, how many tfs do you recon there are in total? And how many of each subspecies, I assume there must be a fair number of each type to maintain a viable population. (I know they usually build each other and all, but this is more interesting, and would lead to greater variation right?)

I recon that if two differnt types of jets had a um, bot-ling?? then that would work, as they would both be compatable, but the the offspring would be a cross between the two types of jet. Does that make sence? I'm rambling arnt I....

Well the problem with Ravage and Laserbeak is both are guys. Howlback is a femme. As for haopmany of each speies there are< i have no idea. As for sentients go, humanoids are defintately more dominant, but there are plenty with just "beast" forms or, in some cases, vehicle forms, without a humanoid form. I couldn't even tell you how many different species of Cybertronian animals there are. The only ones I know by name are turbofoxes, and that is only because both G1 Miriage, and Movie Arcee like to hunt them.

Lol, I know they are both guys

It's probally illegal to hunt turbofoxes now....

I'v never seen a picture of one, I'm guessing they dont transform? I guess there must be a whole cybertronian ecosystem, like the planets in the 86 movie. Also, some bots have rubber tires, so there must have been actual orgainic life there once right?

Tangent wrote:Lol, I know they are both guys

It's probally illegal to hunt turbofoxes now....

I'v never seen a picture of one, I'm guessing they dont transform? I guess there must be a whole cybertronian ecosystem, like the planets in the 86 movie. Also, some bots have rubber tires, so there must have been actual orgainic life there once right?

Unless it's synthetic. According to Beast Machines Cybertron had organic life at one time, but that doesn't meash that much with the rest of canon. What they were probably meaning is techno-organic not true carbon-based organics.

Yeah, that makes far more sence then actual orgainc life being on Cybertron. But I think I just derailed the topic....

Tangent wrote:Yeah, that makes far more sence then actual orgainc life being on Cybertron. But I think I just derailed the topic....

Just a bit.

Tramp wrote:

Tangent wrote:Yeah, that makes far more sence then actual orgainc life being on Cybertron. But I think I just derailed the topic....

Just a bit.

I was living up to my namesake

Okays back on topic! I still don't fully understand the main theorys behind the actual creation of new bots by this method. So, part of the parents sparks meld, thus creating a new soul, as it were, but I still dont see how the actual body of the new would grow. I dont think 'fertilisation' would be internal at any rate. They would have to be so much more complex than the internal diagrams I have seen to be able to convert energy into new circuits and such. You seem to know your stuff, could you explain?

Well, my theory is that it does happen internally through interfaces, a plug-like nozzel in the male, and a receptical in the female. Nanomachine gametes containing genetic code and fragments of the spark of the male is transferred to the female and one merges with a nanomichine "egg" within the female also containing a fragment of spark and genetic data. This merged nanite then replicates and grows into a new child within a special compartment inside the female. Because of their nature, this compartment does not stretch, and thus there is no increase in girth or loss of mobility to the female, and the offspring would, by necessity, be extremely small in comparison to its parents, though likely to grow rapidly early on.

That does make alot of sence, but would it not be rather dangerous for the mom and child? I mean, they are a rather warish race, even if as you said their would be no loss of mobility for the mum, the mom would surly not be fighting, for fear of harming the child. That would be a rather unhelpfull hinderence for a race which basically does nothing but fight. Especially the cons, no?

Tangent wrote:That does make alot of sence, but would it not be rather dangerous for the mom and child? I mean, they are a rather warish race, even if as you said their would be no loss of mobility for the mum, the mom would surly not be fighting, for fear of harming the child. That would be a rather unhelpfull hinderence for a race which basically does nothing but fight. Especially the cons, no?

Actually, no, it wouldn't. It's actually safer if you think about it. IF the young develops in an external egg, then one of both parent's must stay in the "nest" to incubate and defend it. If the young developes internally, all the femme needs to do to protect the developing young is defend herself. Also, if the "womb" doesn't increase in size during gestation, there is no hiderance on the femme during pregnancy. Look at lions and other predators for example. Pregnant lionesses continue to hunt throughout their pregnancies, as do mother wolves, Leopards, Cheetas, foxes, etc.

Aww, you outlogic me at every turn! But heres what I was thinking anyway, while they would have to protect their eggs, dont forget that they would also need to look after any children that where born. And, animals which lay eggs, are often far more developed as young than ones which are born. Also, incubation may not be a such a factor for Tfs, although it probably is. I assume they would have very sophisicated incubaters to help them, so while they would still need to protect them, they wouldnt need to stay with them constantly.

I'm sorry, I really think that a body being constructed outside the body is more fisable.

And, arguing for the outher side, the 'bots and 'cons used to be one happy, robotic race. When they were created, they wern't in a constant state of war, so having a method of reproduction that would have the "mother" of her feet would not be as bad as it would be during the civil wars.

Tangent wrote:Aww, you outlogic me at every turn! But heres what I was thinking anyway, while they would have to protect their eggs, dont forget that they would also need to look after any children that where born. And, animals which lay eggs, are often far more developed as young than ones which are born. Also, incubation may not be a such a factor for Tfs, although it probably is. I assume they would have very sophisicated incubaters to help them, so while they would still need to protect them, they wouldnt need to stay with them constantly.

Sure, they would if for not other reason than to protect them. As for the resulting offspring, after birth, they are now more mobile and capable, though possibly still somewhat helpless, depending upon how "developed", so yes, they would need looking after, but that is what families are for—to look after, protect, and teach the young. As I said, early growth is probably fairly quick. so, within the first year, I figure, they would probably at leastdouble in size and gain more mobility. It is quite possible, that TF newborns could be fully mobile from birth.

Whiner-tron wrote:I'm sorry, I really think that a body being constructed outside the body is more fisable.

Are you talking like in an "egg" pod or factory built bodies?

And, arguing for the outher side, the 'bots and 'cons used to be one happy, robotic race. When they were created, they wern't in a constant state of war, so having a method of reproduction that would have the "mother" of her feet would not be as bad as it would be during the civil wars.

Very true. And even during war time, it would simply mean that the mother would have to sequester herself in a safe, secure location. regardless, given their body structure, i doubt pregnancy would hinder them in the least. A child could't grow vey large inside the femme because her abdomenal cavity does not stretch. Thus, the child would by necesity be very small and the femme would not be hindered, just as lionesses, wolves and other predators aren't hindered by their pregnancies.

You yet again outlogic me, but much of what you said could be used in my egg argument, just about. Either way I think they would grow alot faster than double thier size in a year, especially as you said they would be very small compared to adults.

Man, I guess I just like lookin at eggs an seeing the babys grow inside (ultrasounds are shite in comparison) I used to breed birds and fish, and I gotta say, eggs are a far neater way of doing things.

Anyway, as Whiner-tron says, they whernt always at war, so now im thinking they could have, like, big massive incubaters, like a hospital, or at least a small one in each home(do they have homes? i guess so) because protection wouldnt really have mattered.