The Energon Pub

Damolisher wrote:Why the HELL would robots molt? OK, honestly Tramp, you're starting to ignore the fact they're robots, and you're acting like they're actually organic.

I'm not ignoring anything. As for why they would molt is simple—and understand something, I don't really think they should molt but there is a logical reason why they might need too—their "skin" is hardened armor plate, not soft and flexible. It doesn't stretch. Thus, for a Transformer to grow it might need to shed its old armor, revealing new armor underneath. The movie TFs do this every time the relocate to a new planet. They shed their current armor and revert back to their "protoform" structure along with their re-entry modes, then, upon reaching a new planet, they scan a new mode and their outer skin and some outside matter taken in, forms their new "disguise" and armor. This could very easily work with a TF child growing up. As they outgrow their cuurent "armor" they could shed it, and form outer new armor (and maybe alternate mode)

Tramp, OK, why do you not understand: Robots. OK, machines. Not organic creatures with special magical powers that help them grow and breed- robots. They are advanced technology. You don't see computers grow, you don't see computers breed, and neither do you see it with Transformers.

I will give it to Tramp that they can grow or at least mutate. Example is in War Within, when optronix gets the matrix, he grows bigger and bulkier. Also in beast wars when primal houses Prime's spark and the matrix he grows/mutates into optimal optimus. When the cloning machine blows up in beast wars, cheetor mutates into transmetal II.

That's only with outside assistance, though, and Optronix is chaned by the Matrix, as is Rodimus. Optimal Optimus mutates because he has to house 2 sparks, and Cheetor must be altered by the radiation or something coming off the cloning machine.

Tramp wrote:Of course Wheelie didn't get a bigger body. Why would he? For one thing we really don't know how long it takes for a Cybertronian child like Wheelie to grow up. I was watching some subtitled episodes of Headmasters last night (I got up through episode 3) and not only did the older Autobots tell Daniel to "babysit" Wheelie, but on Cybertron itself, Wheelie made comments about the "grown-ups", once again confirming his status as being a child.

We never said or contended that he wasn't a child. We just contended that his body is going to physically grow up. As I said I still think the whole idea of the body actually growing in size doesn't make much sense. You can still have a transformer child in a smaller body but by the time it's a teenager, or at least 12, it would be in it's final body. Cheetor is a teenager, we can see he matures, only when he gets upgrades to the form dose he physically change. But that doesn't mean his body grew like mine did.

I would probably say why we don't see him actually growing is because, for starters, Season 3 is only on e year in length, and Headmasters is also only one year's span. Secondly, the rate of growth is probably a lot slower than a Human child's especially once a Cybertronian reaches a certain age. Thus, it could take decades or even centuries for him to reach even adolescence, much less adulthood. Beast Wars (before the Maximals and Predicons travel back into the past) is supposed to start about 300 years after the events of G1. Thus, most of these characters can't be much older than 200 years old. Thus, we can probably surmise that fromk infancy to adulthood, for any "naturally born" TFs would probably take about 150 to 200 years give or take. Given Wheelie's physical body, and his maturity level, I would probably age him at about 75 years old (equivalent to a 10-12 year-old).

The only thing about this is that the BW characters were built differently then their counters. While they probably have a long lifespan I have a feeling that they age differntly then the older TFS did. See in Cheetor, we start out at like 15, in three years he's acting like he's 18. So we can assume that they grow at a nomal rate of humans. This would confirm the idea that the TFs went through this upgrade as a way to associate with humanity more.

BW Cheetor is supposed to be the equivalent of a 15 year old or so. Thus, chronologically, he should be about 120. Rat Trap is about 200, Primal about 250, and Rinox easily well over 300. He could very easily have been alive during the Great War, just not a participant. Most of the BW cvharacters though, were most likely born or created well after the end of the Great War.

I some how doubt Rhinox is THAT old. Namely since it's clear that he states that the tech is differnt in the Ark. I should note too that if he was around during the great war then he would have had an easier time converting Teletraan's system.

I agree with Great Atlas that the transformers can mutate, change, grow. But only under certain conditions. Primal with Prime's spark/matrix hybred, Rodimus though the maxtrix, Prime with the dip in the pit of the Matrix.

Zombie Starscream, I love your idea. It actually makes sense that, if we're to go with the whole Nanites create DNA that they could copy,clone, human DNA. I mean, if the Transformers could fall for a human and a humanoid can fall for a transformer, then why not have this happen?

Damolisher wrote:Tramp, OK, why do you not understand: Robots. OK, machines. Not organic creatures with special magical powers that help them grow and breed- robots. They are advanced technology. You don't see computers grow, you don't see computers breed, and neither do you see it with Transformers.

Computers aren't living things either. Transformers are. IT doesn't matter if they are not organic.

Night Striker wrote:

Tramp wrote:Of course Wheelie didn't get a bigger body. Why would he? For one thing we really don't know how long it takes for a Cybertronian child like Wheelie to grow up. I was watching some subtitled episodes of Headmasters last night (I got up through episode 3) and not only did the older Autobots tell Daniel to "babysit" Wheelie, but on Cybertron itself, Wheelie made comments about the "grown-ups", once again confirming his status as being a child.

We never said or contended that he wasn't a child. We just contended that his body is going to physically grow up. As I said I still think the whole idea of the body actually growing in size doesn't make much sense. You can still have a transformer child in a smaller body but by the time it's a teenager, or at least 12, it would be in it's final body. Cheetor is a teenager, we can see he matures, only when he gets upgrades to the form dose he physically change. But that doesn't mean his body grew like mine did.

There is no reason why it shouldn't especially if their body is composed of self-replicating nanomachine "regenrative circuitry". This should obviously allow them to grow in height, build and mass over time until they reach adulthood. And if they molt periodically,this would also make growth more feasable. Though, once again, we do have examples of spontaneous growth without molting through outside means.

I would probably say why we don't see him actually growing is because, for starters, Season 3 is only on e year in length, and Headmasters is also only one year's span. Secondly, the rate of growth is probably a lot slower than a Human child's especially once a Cybertronian reaches a certain age. Thus, it could take decades or even centuries for him to reach even adolescence, much less adulthood. Beast Wars (before the Maximals and Predicons travel back into the past) is supposed to start about 300 years after the events of G1. Thus, most of these characters can't be much older than 200 years old. Thus, we can probably surmise that fromk infancy to adulthood, for any "naturally born" TFs would probably take about 150 to 200 years give or take. Given Wheelie's physical body, and his maturity level, I would probably age him at about 75 years old (equivalent to a 10-12 year-old).

The only thing about this is that the BW characters were built differently then their counters. While they probably have a long lifespan I have a feeling that they age differntly then the older TFS did. See in Cheetor, we start out at like 15, in three years he's acting like he's 18. So we can assume that they grow at a nomal rate of humans. This would confirm the idea that the TFs went through this upgrade as a way to associate with humanity more.

I don't think they mature that quickly, and I'm certain pre-BW era TFs didn't mature that quickly.

BW Cheetor is supposed to be the equivalent of a 15 year old or so. Thus, chronologically, he should be about 120. Rat Trap is about 200, Primal about 250, and Rinox easily well over 300. He could very easily have been alive during the Great War, just not a participant. Most of the BW cvharacters though, were most likely born or created well after the end of the Great War.

I some how doubt Rhinox is THAT old. Namely since it's clear that he states that the tech is differnt in the Ark. I should note too that if he was around during the great war then he would have had an easier time converting Teletraan's system.

Well, as I said, these are just estimates based upon their characters and the amount of time between the end of the last Great War, and the time of the Maximals and Predicons. Rinox acts pretty old—like Ironhide and Kup old. If their life-spans and aging is the same as the Autobots and Decepticons, then it stands to reason that Rinox would have to be at least a few million years old. IF, on the other hand, their aging is accelerated compared to their ancestors, then, yes, he could conceivably be under 300.

Tramp wrote:

Damolisher wrote:Tramp, OK, why do you not understand: Robots. OK, machines. Not organic creatures with special magical powers that help them grow and breed- robots. They are advanced technology. You don't see computers grow, you don't see computers breed, and neither do you see it with Transformers.

Computers aren't living things either. Transformers are. IT doesn't matter if they are not organic.

Yeah, it does matter, actually. Transformers are made from computer components and metal. Organic life forms are made of internal organs, flesh and bone, and things that physically grow. Transformers are not. Any logical person realises this.

Damolisher wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Damolisher wrote:Tramp, OK, why do you not understand: Robots. OK, machines. Not organic creatures with special magical powers that help them grow and breed- robots. They are advanced technology. You don't see computers grow, you don't see computers breed, and neither do you see it with Transformers.

Computers aren't living things either. Transformers are. IT doesn't matter if they are not organic.

Yeah, it does matter, actually. Transformers are made from computer components and metal. Organic life forms are made of internal organs, flesh and bone, and things that physically grow. Transformers are not. Any logical person realises this.

Transformers are made from self-replicating nanomachines—aka, regenerative circuitry—not standard computer components. This allows them to regenerate and heal physical damage. This should conceivably also allow them to grow as they age.

Oh, concievably my arse. Stop applying organic logic to robots. Nanomachines= SELF REPAIR SYSTEM. That's all. Tramp, this is why arguments with you start. You are told fact by people and you reply with theory, claiming they're wrong based on your theory. Theory does not equal fact.

Damolisher wrote:Oh, concievably my arse. Stop applying organic logic to robots. Nanomachines= SELF REPAIR SYSTEM. That's all. Tramp, this is why arguments with you start. You are told fact by people and you reply with theory, claiming they're wrong based on your theory. Theory does not equal fact.

Nanomachjines aren't just the self-repair system. As stated earlier and in canon, protoforms are nothng more than nanomachines in a nutrient gel. In Beast Wars, the protoforms are described as "masses of gray, shapeless gel filled with nanomachinery." (TUG Page 80). This nanomachinery is the very basis for a Transformer's body. when a TF is injured, the nanomachines—the regenerative circuitry—immediately surrounding the wound sets about replicating and closing the injury, rebuilding damaged structure, and armor. If the damage is extensive enough, a CR chamber is used to concentrate the regenrative circuitry to speed up the process. This regenerative circuitry is also what maintains them, not just repairs damage. These aren't free-floating nanites that travel through the system. They are fully integrated into every part of a TF's body. Their whole structure is made up of these self-replicating microscopic machines.

This is canon fact within the TF universes. Thus, if they can heal, there is no reason why they can't grow.

There's a good reason they cannot grow, FFS. They are bloody MACHINES! MACHINES MACHINES MACHINES MACHINES MACHINES! NOT BLOODY ORGANICS! And I am getting pissed off with you continuously trying to apply that damn guide to EVERY CONTINUITY! OK, Tramp, for the final time:

MTMTE ONLY APPLIES TO DREAMWAVE COMICS!

It's becoming disturbingly apparent you don't understand what a machine is. [/b]

Damolisher wrote:There's a good reason they cannot grow, FFS. They are bloody MACHINES! MACHINES MACHINES MACHINES MACHINES MACHINES! NOT BLOODY ORGANICS! And I am getting pissed off with you continuously trying to apply that damn guide to EVERY CONTINUITY! OK, Tramp, for the final time:

MTMTE ONLY APPLIES TO DREAMWAVE COMICS!

It's becoming disturbingly apparent you don't understand what a machine is. [/b]

I know exactly what a machine is, and secondly, I didn't use MtMtE as the cited source, I used TUG. Also, being machine based is irrelevant. If they are made of self-replicatingnanomachines, then they should be able to grow since they already heal. The more the nanomachines that make up their bodies replicate, the more mass they have, thus, they grow in size. Mass is added to their skeleton, their motive systems, their neuro-systems, their internal systems, their armor, etc. When they are damaged, the nanites self-replicate to replace the lost mass and repair the damged area utilizing raw materials the TF has presumably consumed, and we know TFs consume more than just Energon.

Nobody has seemed to mention Bio-morphic reproduction. that was how the Cybertronian Empire got so large. Looks like there is some growing to me

[img]C:\Documents%20and%20Settings\Nick\My%20Documents\My%20Pictures\Budding.jpg[/img]

Actually, that has been mentioned, and it works fine for the Marvel continuity because Marvel's continuity had no females at all in it. The rest do. IF they reproduced via asexual reproduction, then there would be no need for genders at all, and there would be no genders at all. There would be no female Transformers, no male Transformers, no courtship, no marriage, no romantic rivalries, etc. And, in the Marvel run, there were none of these. However, in all the other continuities, there are, thus, budding really doesn't fit in those continuities. On top of that, Budding really doesn't work so well with such complex life forms as Transformers. Asexual reproduction generally doesn't work for such complex life forms. It doesn't allow for enough genetic diversity.

That isn't growing, it's asexual reproduction, which I mentioned many freakin' times before. And Tramp, once again, you're using personal theory. STOP POSTING "This may do this, this MAY do that." It isn't FACT. So until you can debunk my LOGICAL REASONING with FACT, it doesn't matter what you say, because I'm correct. Robots cannot grow, robots cannot change size, robots CANNOT SHED (That's absolutely laughable right there.) And as for "Transformers don't eat just Energon": WRONG!

Cheetor states pointblank in Beast Machines: "We consume ONLY Energon. PERIOD." (Although I bet you'll have a different story for THAT from your ultimate guide too.)

Oh, and a nanomachine is a micropscopic machine. It's only self-repairing. You're applying impossible theories to machines made from computer parts. Seriously, what is your problem? You can't acknowledge you're wrong with anything, despite the glaringly logical evidence that goes against you.

Damolisher wrote:That isn't growing, it's asexual reproduction, which I mentioned many freakin' times before. And Tramp, once again, you're using personal theory. STOP POSTING "This may do this, this MAY do that." It isn't FACT. So until you can debunk my LOGICAL REASONING with FACT, it doesn't matter what you say, because I'm correct. Robots cannot grow, robots cannot change size, robots CANNOT SHED (That's absolutely laughable right there.) And as for "Transformers don't eat just Energon": WRONG!

Cheetor states pointblank in Beast Machines: "We consume ONLY Energon. PERIOD." (Although I bet you'll have a different story for THAT from your ultimate guide too.)

Oh, and a nanomachine is a micropscopic machine. It's only self-repairing. You're applying impossible theories to machines made from computer parts. Seriously, what is your problem? You can't acknowledge you're wrong with anything, despite the glaringly logical evidence that goes against you.

No, Even Earth Scientists have begun work to create self replicating nanomachines, not just self repairing. This isn't impossible tech, simply extremely advanced. and one still years or even decades away from realization, but it is very possible. Secondly, In G1 we see TFs drinking oil. Thus, they do indeed consume things other than energon. Logically, they would have to. Energon can only supply energy. It can't provide the raw matter required to regenerate dameaged systems, nor the lubricants and fliuds to keep the joints moving and keep the body temperature down. All of these would need to be consumed by the TF.

On top of this, you cannot apply Earth limitations to Transformers. They are not Earth robots limited to what Earth Robots are capable of. Just because our robots can't grow, or heal, or reproduce does not mean that Transformers can't. Earth robots are not life forms. Transformers are. You are trying to apply Earth robotic limitations to a species of Alien robotic life forms. They are two completely different things. The facts about machines not being able to grow only applies to current technology Earth machines. Your facts about machines not being capable of reproduction only applies to current Earth technology machines. None of that applies to an advanced alien robotic life form. The "technology" that makes up a Transformer's body is centuiries, if no millenia more advanced than our own. Who knows what we ourselves will be able to create in that time? Thus, it is quite possible for a "Machine"-based organism to reproduce and grow, and heal. Can we create a machine that can do all of this using today's technology? No. Of course not. Is it theoretically possible down the line as technology advances? Sure it is. Is it possible for a race of alien autonomous robotic organisms composed of self-replicating nanomachinery encoded with a genetic code to heal, grow and reproduce? There is no reason why they shouldn't be.

This is beginning to annoy the hell out of me. Tramp, it doesn't matter how wrong you are, if you think you're right, regardless of how utterly STUPID your statement and theories, and regardless of how much evidence there is AGAINST you, you STILL try to argue with things which AREN'T FACT! Tramp, do you know why you're unpopular around here? You listen to no-one. Your opinion in your eyes is the only one that counts, and you won't accept that anyone else is right. And when it comes to the point you have to admit they're right, you won't. You came into this topic with one incorrect theory, and now that you're been outargued and proven wrong, you don't want to listen and want to turn our arguments around.

Tramp, you are wrong simply based on the fact Transformers are robots. You're now saying that they don't have to follow my argument because they're aliens,. they don't have to follow YOUR theories for breeding because they're aliens. You're being a hypocrit again.

"Because they are robots" is not a reason for any of this to be impossible. "Because they are robots" is not proof of anything. It is in fact completely irrelevant. I am not the only one who has said this. It is not evidence. It is nothing more than a red herring. The real evidence shows that it is possible. It is possible for them to be sexually reproductive because they are life forms, they have males and females, they engage in courtship, marriage, romantic rivalries and other activities revolving strictly around the choosing of a mate and mating, they have nanomachine-based systems and genetic code which allows them the heal injuries and manitain a state of homeostasis and could also be applied to reproduction, they have families, and raise children. All of this is evidence in support of them possibly, and most likely, being capable of some form of sexual reproduction, and is what should allow them to phyically grow and mature from infancy, through childhood, and into adulthood as well without needing to "swap bodies", which there is no evidence to suggest that they do that anyway. They may need to reformat themselves, but not change into an entirely new body. Not one thing of what you have posted makes any of this impossible. It is all quite possible.

Tramp wrote:"Because they are robots" is not a reason for any of this to be impossible. "Because they are robots" is not proof of anything. It is in fact completely irrelevant. I am not the only one who has said this. It is not evidence. It is nothing more than a red herring. The real evidence shows that it is possible. It is possible for them to be sexually reproductive because they are life forms, they have males and females, they engage in courtship, marriage, romantic rivalries and other activities revolving strictly around the choosing of a mate and mating, they have nanomachine-based systems and genetic code which allows them the heal injuries and manitain a state of homeostasis and could also be applied to reproduction, they have families, and raise children. All of this is evidence in support of them possibly, and most likely, being capable of some form of sexual reproduction, and is what should allow them to phyically grow and mature from infancy, through childhood, and into adulthood as well without needing to "swap bodies", which there is no evidence to suggest that they do that anyway. They may need to reformat themselves, but not change into an entirely new body. Not one thing of what you have posted makes any of this impossible. It is all quite possible.

Being robots makes MOST OF THE CRAP you just described impossible. Impossible to any sane person who doesn't take Transformers as a freakin' science project. Transformers is simply a fun concept, and Simon Furman himself has virtually said that Transformers DO NOT HAVE SEX because he can't see why ROBOTS would have Genders. You can cry lifeforms over and over and over again (Well, come to think of it, that's what you HAVE been doing.) but Transformers are machines. Internal machinery, circuits and computers, not sex organs, or parts for making babies. Robots do not grow. No metal can grow, no Computer magically generates growing cords, and there is no growing allow. There is no Transformer Puberty, there is no Transformer high school, Transformers are machines. Robots.

The laws you're applying apply to HUMANS. When scientists wrote that, they weren't thinking of robots. I bet whoever created Transformers didn't think that there were people tragic enough to try and say robots could screw and have children and grow.

Tramp, you only want to argue this because you want, oh, SO BADLY to have Transformers having sex. It's sad. I mean, you said before you took Transformers seriously, and it disgusts me how seriously you actually do take it- you have to apply scientific laws to it, you see the femmes as sex objects (Going by your remarks about Airazor and Nightbird in other topics) and you must have physics, etc involved in everything. You don't look at it as what it is: A toyline and a cartoon for kids, with comics aimed at fans who were fans as kids and enjoy Transformers for what it is- robots at war.

And you try to claim they must mate because they're "Lifeforms," yet you claim that because they're aliens, our laws don't have to apply and their armour can grow.

Ladies and Genetlemen, we have WHY NOTHING TRAMP EVER SAYS can be taken seriously!

(OK, I'm done. Tramp, you're beginning to really annoy the crap out of me with your inability to admit you're wrong with anything. Knock it off. It's annoying EVERYONE, too, and not just me.)

No Damolisher, none of it is impossible because they are machines. Not one bit of it is made impossible because they are robotic and not organic. Not even Simon Furman says it's impossible, he just avoids the issue entirely, the Japanese certainly haven't avoided the issue, and neither did the original cartoon writers. Guys like Flint Dille, Bob Forward, and Larry DiTillio. These are the guys who introduced us to the concept of female Transformers, Transformers having genders, and Transformers having romantic relationships and families. You may choose to believe it is impossible, and you are welcome to contiunue to believe that, But myself and others choose to believe otherwise because the evidence strongly suggests that it all is very possible.

And those who believe it is possible need to get out more. Seriously. There's also writers like Flint Dille and all those who write things the Ultimate Guide contradicts, but just because in this instance, they 'support' (Not really, but hey, if you think that's how they meant it, you're right, Tramp. You're never wrong, are you?)your sad, overdetailed theory, whereas the lack of anything indicating your ridiculously ludicrous theory in the Ultimate Guide, you nay-say Simon Furman in this case, because he debunks your argument. That's typical, Tramp. As usual, double standards. And this is why no-one ever buys your arguments.

How old are you, 36-37? Shouldn't you be old enough by now that you should be thinking more logically than someone my age? Because you aren't. You're trying to put human laws to a bunch of robots.

And What's worse is you're trying to discuss the 'growth system' of robots in a cartoon. That's tragic, mate, sorry to say.

I'm discussing growth because it was brought up. Since this discussion already presumes that it is possible for TFs to be capable of some form of sexual reproduction, the growth of the resulting offspring after it is born also becomes part of the discussion, and figuring out how this would occure is thus part of the theories being presented. You may not agree with it, nor am I asking you to, but this isn't about proving anyting possible or impossible. It is about discussing theories.

You can't have theories for things that aren't possible. That's like trying to prove R Kelly likes legal women.

Damolisher wrote:You can't have theories for things that aren't possible. That's like trying to prove R Kelly likes legal women.

Damolisher, we have already gone over this, as have others. There is nothing in canon that states that it is imp[ossible. Nothing whatsoever. Their being robotic does not make it impossible. Their physiology is far more advanced than any robot we could create. Thus, they are capable of many things that Earth robots built using modern technology could never be capable of, and could easily be capable of so much more. some form of sexual reproduction and growth through nanomachine-based systems, is not out of the realm of possibility. It is completely plausible.