The Energon Pub

joesaysso wrote:When I was a boy, I loved the 86 movie. I'm pretty sure I cried a real tear when Optimus Prime died. I didn't think too much about all of the original characters getting wasted. I just never read into it that much. The things I took from that movie were: the autobots have a new leader, Galvatron is bada$$, and Unicron was the craziest thing I had ever seen up to that point in my short life. It was a transformers movie and I loved it, plain and simple.

Was I the ONLY person who was happy that Prime died? About time he was proved infalliable......then they go and bring him back....arghhhh

Also,

I don't see why Hasbro couldn't just write out old characters, it didn't stop them from writing in NEW characters in Season 1 and 2

Prime and Megs? Yeah, they needed to die if they wanted to introduce new leaders, but everybody else they could of just faded out, like Mirage....didn't see him to much and nobody questioned it.

Better they die in battle against the Decepticon war machine than get booted out the back door for being too old!

Tekka wrote:Better they die in battle against the Decepticon war machine than get booted out the back door for being too old!

That may be, but if they're going to die in battle might as well show it.

EX: Wheeljack, Windcharger.....

More Autobots that get slaughtered, the happier I was...

Bloodlust wrote:

joesaysso wrote:When I was a boy, I loved the 86 movie. I'm pretty sure I cried a real tear when Optimus Prime died. I didn't think too much about all of the original characters getting wasted. I just never read into it that much. The things I took from that movie were: the autobots have a new leader, Galvatron is bada$$, and Unicron was the craziest thing I had ever seen up to that point in my short life. It was a transformers movie and I loved it, plain and simple.

Was I the ONLY person who was happy that Prime died? About time he was proved infalliable......then they go and bring him back....arghhhh

Also,

I don't see why Hasbro couldn't just write out old characters, it didn't stop them from writing in NEW characters in Season 1 and 2

Prime and Megs? Yeah, they needed to die if they wanted to introduce new leaders, but everybody else they could of just faded out, like Mirage....didn't see him to much and nobody questioned it.

I was actually sadder to see Ratchet die than Optimus. After his comic appearances he was one of my favourites - while in my opinion Optimus is overrated (after 25 years of spotlight, let him die allready).

don't see why Hasbro couldn't just write out old characters, it didn't stop them from writing in NEW characters in Season 1 and 2

They added plenty of new characters with no origins. Which in retrospect they should have done that with the majority of them, making all these special origins actually just mucked up the mythos as you have all these transformers being made from scratch. Yet they can die and supposedly not be repaired as the plot called for.

I think its plausible for them say, not every single decepticon or autobot was aboard the Ark or Nemesis when they crashed on earth since its an entire planet population. (besides the obvious ones like shockwave and Alpha Trion who stayed) that stragglers would show up late to the party once earth was established as the new battle ground. Its pretty much what the movie verse or animated does(which they simply scan new diguises so it works seemlessly), as simply saying hey new arrivals came is the easiest and least convuluted way introduce new characters. While be nice if they mentioned that and simply used that explaination the majority of the time rather than just have X new guy shows up as if he were part of the team since day 1. Which happened alot during season 2 and on.

Granted the special origins did make some teams stand out(plus it made for an easy subject to make episodes about), or suited earth related such as the dinobots. And some stuff like pretenders did need some reason for existing. But I'm all for streamlining the excess and weak spots. With the comics rebooting it they arent going bother mention several special origins, they just had guys like the Stunticons and Aerialbots existed from day 1.

Like i said for the movie they could just made the series take place in space leaving a team on earth and an away team. I mean GI joe hd both Flint and Duke lead, I think there could been room for having Ultra magnus or Rodimus Prime being the additional commanders in other locations. (which again Animated did.) They could done that without slagging anyone.

That said would transformers done better or worse had they done that? I feel like for as much of a blight the 86 movie was, it had a positive side effect on the property. It caused the people at hasbro to see the property had more potential to it than simply be a vehicle to push toys. That the characters had lasting power to them, and had the potential to tell great stories that connect with the fans besides sell some product to them.

That people who worked on it geniuely cared about the characters they portrayed as it came across to the fans. I mean you see Michael Bell, Frank Welker, and Peter Cullen all talking about this franchise 25 years later and what it meant to them and continues to mean to them for those who reprised roles. They seem loved the characters as much as the fans did in some cases. They wish be a part of it again because of that not just cause its a paycheck, its a piece of them.

Prime is practically the superman of my generation. In sense of way fans viewed him, simliarly how kids felt about George Reeve playing him back then, Id imagine the backlash if doomsday had killed him back then being equally vocal as kids and parents were for the 86 film. This was Hasbros wake up call to treat the series and characters better as they had the chance to do so much more rather than continue to take it for granted and whore them out halfheartedly. To make something iconic that will live on.

I dont know if transformers would have ever showed Hasbro its strength if they hadnt made the 86 film for it to be treated beyond a fad. There was plenty of other toy lines that faded into obsurity from the 80s like M.A.S.K. , Centurions, and Visionaries that had brief cartoon runs. Transformers could easily been another one of those in the minds of the executives. May be if they let it simply fade out rather than go out with a bang the way it did they might have allowed it to happen. This site would look like the Gobots fans following a long dead series that will likely never return.

Instead that didnt happen, and now we have 2 live action movies, a couple different series and comics, and an armada of toys. Its more popular now than its ever been. As a kid Id never dreamed in a million years Id be seeing this happen to one of my favorite franchises. As much as its original intent might been just hey this a cool idea push toys, no one is saying it wasnt a shallow genesis. But sometimes the reason you start isnt the reason you finish it. That things evolve and become something more; take on a life of their own. I feel transformers managed to do that, as it truly is more than meets the the eye.

(TL;DR version the 86 film showed the greedy CEOS who mowed down our heroes we cared and the series had the potential be iconic.)

ROTF was arse.

It was crap wrapped in poop covered in sh1t and all floating in a troff of faeces.

The 80s version was far superior.

80's movie by far.

ROTF cons=too much Bumblebee,way too much twins,too much wheelie,too many clones,too much sam,too much sam's parents,too much meghan fox(cant believe i said that),way too much leo,alice is stupid,michael bay is stupid.

ROTF pros= First few minutes killing sideways/demolisher was awesome,soundwave/ravage were awesome,bringing back megatron was cool,forest fight scene was straight up badass,devastator was cool(still think the original is way better),jetfire was one tough mother,and the final fight was awesome except the clones(prime-fire was the ish,only good humans are the puerto rican jesus and lennox

Conclusion= The pros for ROTF outweigh the cons except the cons take up over 2/3 of the movie. I mean sams mom and the green brownies come on seriously!!!

Just Negare wrote:ROTF was arse.

It was crap wrapped in poop covered in sh1t and all floating in a troff of faeces.

The 80s version was far superior.

And mercilessly killing dozens of characters , retconning into existence uber power things, and replacing all the cast with subpar replacements wasnt taking a crap on the fans? It was fueled purely by greed. The movie horribly bombed for a reason. Hundreds upon hundreds of angry letters.

People can complain about RoTF now(which for all nerdrage I see online, I dont hear theres been hundreds of angry letters), but I can only imagine the firestorm there would been if the internet existed way does now. Heck word would gotten out about killing Prime quicker, and probably even less people would have seen it. I know my friends dad was like slag this, and left once he was surrounded by dozens of crying 5-10 year olds all around him. No parent should have had to put up with that crap.

For all the complaining people do, the movie was a smashing success. You cant make the money this movie did and be an unwatchable mess, and live up to all the hyperboles that get said. Word of mouth would gotten out, and on top of it all it was sequel. If you didnt like the first why see the second? You'd have an idea what you were in for.

The crowd cheered and clapped during it when I saw it, as many people who I saw talk about online when it first came out said simliar things. Ive yet meet a person in real life who didnt think it was alright or hated it. One of the Djs heard the critics reviews, and had people call who had seen it, and everyone who was on the air said was good. I tend think the people who hated the movie are just much more vocal than the ones who liked it who went on with their lives.

Lastjustice wrote:

And mercilessly killing dozens of characters , retconning into existence uber power things, and replacing all the cast with subpar replacements wasnt taking a crap on the fans? It was fueled purely by greed. The movie horribly bombed for a reason. Hundreds upon hundreds of angry letters.

The thing with ROTF vs. 80sTF was that we all knew that the 80s movie was a feature length toy commericial.

Micheal Bay wrote a cheque his arse couldn't cash. Many great things were promised, and after the grand fantasticness of the first one, was it so bad that we expected a half decent sequel? That's why I was so aggrieved by ROTF. (Oh, and the naughty grown up antics of Megan Fox and the racism of those twins didn't help matters).

Just Negare wrote:

Lastjustice wrote:

And mercilessly killing dozens of characters , retconning into existence uber power things, and replacing all the cast with subpar replacements wasnt taking a crap on the fans? It was fueled purely by greed. The movie horribly bombed for a reason. Hundreds upon hundreds of angry letters.

The thing with ROTF vs. 80sTF was that we all knew that the 80s movie was a feature length toy commericial.

Micheal Bay wrote a cheque his arse couldn't cash. Many great things were promised, and after the grand fantasticness of the first one, was it so bad that we expected a half decent sequel? That's why I was so aggrieved by ROTF. (Oh, and the naughty grown up antics of Megan Fox and the racism of those twins didn't help matters).

Who knew was a Toy Comerical? We the target audience, who was all of 5-12 back in the 80s? I didn't think about that as a 6 year old. Sure I might heard an adult say that about some cartoons being toy commericals, but exactly why it was didnt click. I just saw a show I liked and wanted see it. I doubt most kids who went to see it were so different. Parents took us to it thniking just be some mindless fluff that they d have sit thru....not that it be this horrorfic ambush that it was. It was entirely too dark and cruel for the intented audience, and too shallow for adults. To mean thats a terrible movie that fails in every way.

Nowdays unless you were a fan of the original series, it doesnt really hold peoples attention. Kids wouldnt get the emotional impact of prime dying as my niece and nephew didnt even register that Prowl, Ironhide and others were killed since the characters hadnt really sank in to them when I'd showed them it. Which was hilarious for them even to pick apart the massive plot holes as lil kids heh. Uncle Mike why does the Matrix kill Unicron? It just does, they dont explain it at all.

The new films try explain majority of the stuff. Like the All spark didnt randomly kill Megatron, it was built up ahead of time it merging with a transformer would kill them. All the pieces are there and theres also outside stuff to fill in more blanks so you re not left wondering.

New movies I do refer to as the greatest 2 and half hour long commericals heh. I think everyone knows the product placement is definitely going be there. With the autobots turning into cars, its infact quite natural. They d be silly not to take advantage of this. Transformers has a long hostiry of selling out, but having fun while doing it. I dont see why we d expect it to change now.

If you really think Racism is the case, lets really deconstruct this train of thought then. Ive seen enough people claim this, but I have say I dont agree with them. For this movie be racist that would imply all transformers are a race or emulating one. So does that mean all the rest of the robots are a race too, and if so what are they and on what grounds are this race? Is simply the voice actor? The way they speak, what they look like? serious for you be right and have proof there has be a consistent pattern between all other transformers for that to hold true.

So if it's simply the voice actor, Skids is voiced by a white voice actor. Remo williams also voiced Frenzy in the first film as well as Mudflap.If the characters were so out and out offensive you think Remo Willaims would have played Mudflap? Jazz has always been voiced by a black actor in G1, Animated, and the movie, which Darius McCrazy who voiced him said it was an honor to follow in Scatman Crothers shoes. Yeah thats really racist if its an honor play a character. Which I'm white and Jazz was always one of my favorites too,he was a cool character, I was sad they killed him in the movies. Things that are universally awesome have no race, as they belong to everyone.

Sure the Fallen is also voiced by a black man, but you know what, a white guy has voiced Megatron for last 25 years, whos pretty much the metallic version of Hitler. Majority of the decepticons are voiced by white actors (is hasbro saying all white people are evil? No cause we aren't retarded.), but since when is who plays a character a reflection on the person or their race? If it were no one would want to ever act as a villain.

The whole we dont read thing, thats ripped totally out of context. If you watched the movie and paid attentioned NO ONE CLAIMED THEY COULD READ THE GYLPHS BUT JETFIRE AND THE FALLEN! Not bumble bee, not Wheelie, not megatron or the twins. So how is that racist if only a handful of characters could read the symbols? Again this all stems from one thing, people who assume this is racist have negative stereotypes locked in their head. They re connecting dots the movie didn't.

If someone drew a small gremlin and had them setting off fireworks and laughing evily, then someone asks them whats that, you reply it's Michael Bay. I then show the picture to Michael Bay, he goes hey neat lil monster I might use that in a film. He doesnt get offended despite it was a shot at him. Why..because he doesnt see himself that way.

And the people who dont get offended by the movie dont see themselves as goofy idiot posers, as they dont consider that their race.(my friend who didnt care for the film since shes a G1 fangirl, is black and bashed the movie plenty, she'd said was racist if she thought so since she never sugarcoats.) If you consider being goofy looking buck teeth,illiterate, dumb and talking Gangsta being is what a black person is; as thats first thing that pops into your head then may be you re the racist as sounds like you have a very negative association of them. (or anyone else who feels this way.)

I come from chicago, I have plenty of postive black role models to look up and dont connect those dots. People like Michael Jordan,Scott Pippen, Walter Payton, Lovie Smith, Derek Lee. None of these men remind me the slightest of the twins. I dont connect nothing but bad things to them and neither did the movie.

What does remind me of the twins, poser idiots whom I think we re supposed to laugh at heh(like in the video of boys in the hood by dynamite hack, just first thing I think of when I see the twins.). Which African Americans, last I knew werent laying claim to being poser idiots as Gangsta isnt a race. Neither is talking like a surfer or a hippie like beachcomber does. No more than talking like Clint Eastwood as Ironhide does, or Mirage in the original series talking like Dean martin, or grimlock like a caveman.

They are simply robots coming from another world learning our language through the world wide web and talking on jargon that suits their personality as the first movie clearly described. The twins happen be basically kids who are trying really hard act cool. My best friends lil brother was same way, as he did all kinds of stupid stuff prove he was hard as older kids. It's funny how many kids emulate Gangsta here, and my neighborhood is mostly hispanic.

I fail see how this train of thought really has a leg to stand on. Anymore than saying the cars in Cars are rednecks cause Larry cable guy voiced a buck toothed tow truck. I dont see critics headhunting them down for that, I think we can let this go too. Besides when were critics considered experts on anything besides movies?

As for Meghan Fox, I had no probelm with her. She looks better and worse in some shots, she by no means offends me. As for the potty humour and drugs...transformers has a long history making crude jokes. I would like them raise the bar alittle on them humour but it never bothered me as I laughed at some of it.

ROTF still sucks to me,no matter how many essays you write my friend.

G1:Dinobots ROTF:No Dinobots

G1:Good Soundwave,Rumble,Ravage and Laserbeat ROTF:Good Ravage only

G1:Awesome Version of Devastator ROTF:Cool Devastator,but which con had the components to make his balls?

G1:Semi-Annoying Wheelie ROTF:God I Hate Wheelie(wonder why his toy doesnt sell)

G1:Orson Welles, Eirc Idle and Leonard Nimoy ROTF:Hugo Weaving and Tony Todd?

G1:Starscream acts and sounds like he should ROTF:Not the case

I can think of more but i just got bored

ROTF still sucks to me,no matter how many essays you write my friend.

So basically you re taking the fanboy stance on this, fair enough. I've been warned. I'll reply anyways since Im already here.

G1:Dinobots ROTF:No Dinobots

G1 dinobots were meh. The movie and post movie ruined them. They went from Autobots special forces to special ed. Outside of Grimlock, none of them did anything worth while. Snarl wasnt even in the 86 film for most part. (likely cause he was scared of being killed.) They were treated as comedy relief which I can understand why people might think they were lame based off that.(Ive seen posters who were older when G1 came out saying such.) Most what made Grimlock cool happened in comics not the G1 cartoon.

The movieverse not having them doesnt bother me. Bay doesn't seem to dig them so I rather he picked characters he might enjoy using. (I think the stunticons might be perfect fit for Bay.) Who knows they might get added and work well in the 3rd movie or later. I can picture wayss they could work, but I wont be heart broken if they never get used as I have other favorites Ive love to see in line waaay ahead of them. (bring on the aerial bots baby!)

G1:Good Soundwave,Rumble,Ravage and Laserbeat ROTF:Good Ravage only

Soundwave didnt fight very often in the original series. he effectively did the role of communications officer and cordinated things. He for most part hanged back and let his tapes do the work. Laserbeak hasnt appeared yet. Ravage was basically same as G1 ravage other than his life ended sooner than I'd preferred. The casettes remain the hardest working decepticons even in the movie verse. Without Ravage, or Frenzy the decepticons would been dead in the water. (suppose you can count the doctor as one too.)

G1:Awesome Version of Devastator ROTF:Cool Devastator,but which con had the components to make his balls?

I never was the biggest Devastator fan, as he was the weakest combiner Everyone defeated him, he never once defeated another combiner in G1, including other Decepticons.(Menasor and Bruticus were both cooler.) Freaking Perceptor one shotted him. In the 86 film he seemed have some plot armor, but all the decepticons did in the autobot city battle till Prime showed up. Ordinarily he gets defeated in short ordered, as the casettes Rumble and frenzy prove imediately in the battle for control of the decepticons as Devastator reverted back to chump status.

Movie Devastator was interesting looking, other than Id ditched the wrecking balls, and actually had Mudflap died in his mouth. Id prefered some of the autobots and him had a real battle but thats my only major complaint. I dont mind the railgun was what killed him, but Id rather it built up to that than them just deciding hey we cant defeat it and ignore him.

G1:Semi-Annoying Wheelie ROTF:God I Hate Wheelie(wonder why his toy doesnt sell)

This I will disagree a million fold on. I absolutely hated G1 wheelie. If i was an autobot id defected just to have melted both him and Blurr down. RoTF Wheelie didnt bother me at all. I laughed at some of the things he said. The fact he gets treated like crap and kicked around was purely a direct result of everyone hating G1 wheelie. I only wish it was G1 wheelie being killed.

G1:Orson Welles, Eric Idle and Leonard Nimoy ROTF:Hugo Weaving and Tony Todd?

I thought all the actors did pretty well. I wont insult either movies, other than I preferred some of the regular cast that came in post movie in season 3 to the special guests in the majority of cases. Like Jack Angel does a much better Ultra Magnus than Robert Stack.

G1:Starscream acts and sounds like he should ROTF:Not the case

Movie verse Starscream is alot like G1 screamer, only much more competent.(G1 decepticons ordered Decepticons retreat so often it was almost a battle cry.) He actually leads for a good length of time. So doesnt act like G1..you mean doesnt suck at leading and fighting, I think this was an improvement.

I prefer Charlie Adler(who was G1 Silver bolt, he likes his air commanders hehe) to Chris Latta voice over. Latta voice was rather annoying. Too high pitched. To make it worse, he used the same voice in a couple different shows.Latta was a great voice actor, as he had a pretty good range, just I wasnt crazy about his screamer.(or G1 megatron for that matter, if I didnt grow up with them I d never accepted them if Latta and Wealker megatron were for the movie, and Adler and Weaving were the G1 voices.) Latta like quite a few of the guest voice overs is dead from the 86 film.(Scatman, Welles, Stack all for sure) So would been impossible for him to reprised the role anyways.

These responses wont be in order due to the face I just got back from the bar with my girlfriend.

1. I'm not a fanboy, I saw the original in the movies with my mom when I was like 5.Please forgive me if it holds some sentimental value to me.I think fanboy implies I dont listen to reason, that is simply not the case.I see some reason in your comments but everyone is entitled to an opinion(as long as it is based on facts), I feel I stated my case based on facts. You prefer ROTF thats fine by me.

2. Devestator was defeated by every other combiner,god knows why but fair enough I concede that fact. But without him would there be other combiners? Jackie Robinson effect(I'm waiting for the flaming for that so bring it) :O)

3. I always liked the dinobots for their toys to be honest.

4. Starscream was overly exaggerated to get a point across in the cartoon and he was indeed very cartoonish I must admit but whats wrong with bringing a little of that to the movies?

5. For the Soundwave comment I shouldve been more specific. I meant his voice AKA Dr Claw. Welker was indeed Dr Claw but eff M Bay for not giving him the right voice. Laserbeak was totally plausible in the movie verse, Frenzy was bs seems like they wanted him to be soundwave but changed their minds and I'm hoping for Rumble in the third. Rumble has a great personality and is a top 10 character no doubt.

6. Wheelie I will call that a push based on personal preference

All in all I dont mind an intelligent arguement but if I am a fanboy of the cartoon movie you are a fanboy of Michael Bay which is way worse in my opinion. He kinda ruined the franchise with his douchebaggery

. I'm not a fanboy, I saw the original in the movies with my mom when I was like 5.Please forgive me if it holds some sentimental value to me.I think fanboy implies I dont listen to reason, that is simply not the case.

You can like something which is fine; I was referring to the response of you can type all the essays you want. Basicaly like hey I dont care have an intelligent conversation, Im going have all emotional responses and ignore any valid points. Hence why i said you re going take the fan boy stance I've been warned. You ultimately opted to refrain for than afterwards which is fine. I dont say simply be condescending, I merely state thats whats going on if thats how people are handling what I say. At which point I choose to bow out as its utterly pointless.

I d say Revenge of the fallen or even the 2007 movie are over all better films than the 86 transformers movie. I understand alot of people here have nostaliga goggles when comes to that. Just watch the nostaglia chicks review and Angry video game nerd's review of the movie. James is a complete fanboy of it as hes like this movie has balls. While Lindsey's review is much more honest, as shes like this movies fueled by a much more sinister plot than Unicron...greed.

Storywise the 86 films all over the place, as completely incoherent with where its going. Dozens of things happen than do little to further the story. It all just ends with Unicron getting msteriously killed by the Matrix, and the autobots somehow magically now have control over cybertron. We have no idea why or how these things happen, stuff just does, and this happens all movie.

They easily could made a movie all about unicron or the liberation of cybertron, they just kind of half asses both into one. But again the motivation of this movie wasnt to tell a story it was what will rack up the biggest death toll of characters to replace them all. I suppose it had a clear cut goal, just not one that was in the interest of a story.

Both movies have a clear cut goal of whats trying be acomplished and all the sidequests that go down are pointed toward it for the most part. They tell you right away what the point of interest is, either the All spark or star harvest as you see both in the introduction, and they never detour from it as all the stuff ties togeher. (some a bit convuluted but a solid effort.) Greatest stories ever..no but they do exactly what G1 stories do and yet people complain the movies arent enough like it heh. decepticons try gain a device or energon source that furthers their plans and slags the planet in the process. Autobots stop em. Battle ensues.

2. Devestator was defeated by every other combiner,god knows why but fair enough I concede that fact. But without him would there be other combiners?

They d made combiners with or without Devastator. Not like the idea of combining robots didnt already exist with Voltron and sentai stuff running around japan at the same time. Devastator was the model T. Sure its the first, but Id rather drive the better ones heh. Being the first rarely means the best. Megaman was the first game in the series, and the following games were all superior to it on NES. The worlds not about whos first; its about whos best.

3. I always liked the dinobots for their toys to be honest.

Fair enough. I didnt own many transformer toys. My family was poor back then as my dad was laid off and there was 5 kids in my family. I actually had more Gobots because of that. I rarely based by feelings of the characters off the toys. Jazz might be the only expectation since he was one of the few major characters I actually had. (and I pulled a megatron and accidentally tore him in half mistransforming him.)

. Starscream was overly exaggerated to get a point across in the cartoon and he was indeed very cartoonish I must admit but whats wrong with bringing a little of that to the movies?

Certain traits of the cartoons were best left to the cartoons, as they dont always translate well. Like the blockimus prime(the transformers would looked about as realistic as Space Jam next real people.) look or screamers voice. I prefer Tom Kenny animated voice over the G1 version. Its not nearly as grating on the ears. I think it was for the best most of the choices that were made. The idea was make a movie for everyone, not just old fans. There isnt enough money in that.

5. For the Soundwave comment I shouldve been more specific. I meant his voice AKA Dr Claw. Welker was indeed Dr Claw but eff M Bay for not giving him the right voice. Laserbeak was totally plausible in the movie verse, Frenzy was bs seems like they wanted him to be soundwave but changed their minds and I'm hoping for Rumble in the third. Rumble has a great personality and is a top 10 character no doubt.

Well its just Welker voice with out the modulation, which we even heard on several occasions in G1. They wanted make sure people could understand him supposely. Id like had it, but I dont see this as a love letter to G1. I accept theres going be changes like every other incarnation of transformers over the last 25 years.

Infact soundwave had been part of the transformers universe in any meaningful way till animated or the movies since G1. The movie verse had more G1 references than RiD or Unicron trilogy did. I suppose that or beast wars era should get tossed under the bus for not including him or his tapes either. His alt mode and hasbro insisting of him being somethin sound related made it hard to use soundwave without the mass shifting. In a sense Soundwave can only be true to his G1 setting in G1 or some incarnation where they say screw mass shift away.

Laserbeak could easily be used next. They cant use everything in each movie...especially if they are killing decepticons. Its good they leave a few in reserve. I wont bash them for not haing something added yet. That be like bashing G1 cause the idea of sparks hadnt been thought of yet as the mythos has progessed greatly since then.

Wheelie I will call that a push based on personal preference

I hated wheelie, he was like the scooter of the transformers universe. (ironically both were voiced by welker.) They were lameness personified with the whole scrappy doo gimick of giving the kids a younger kid character to identify with. Bumble bee was the kid friendly character done right, while wheelie was the copper kid direction as he had the annoying speech gimmick too. They were trying entirely too hard make him different from previous characters but different doesnt always equal good. I mean just cause no on ever made a manure sandwich doesnt mean its a good idea.

All in all I dont mind an intelligent arguement but if I am a fanboy of the cartoon movie you are a fanboy of Michael Bay which is way worse in my opinion. He kinda ruined the franchise with his douchebaggery

and Hasbros greed wizzed all over the franchise for me at the movie and beyond. wasnt till Beast wars I started forgive them for all crappy ideas and gimmicks that they unleashed they so desperately were trying make as many toys as they could the quality control was lost.Most of the season 3 cast...headmasters,Trigger masters, action masters , pretenders (the movie did more useful things with this idea than the 80s version ever did.)

They say you can learn more in defeat than victory and I feel thats what happened post movie. Nothing good came directly out of it. All good ideas came in the wake of it when better able hands took the damaged property and refurbished it to something much more respect able.

Bay might be a D bag. I dont care about him personally, or follow all that is Bay as I will probably never watch Pearl harbor. I enjoy the movies, which sharing them with the kiddos, is far cooler and exciting than showing them something old that didnt age well. They understand exactly what makes transformers cool thru their own eyes.

Pearl Harbor is actually a good movie. Mega-man 2 was my favorite. And I like G1 Movie better than ROTF,to sum it up too much human nonsense. I understand that it would be impossible to make an all robot movie because the first was a cartoon and ROTF is an actual movie. What it all comes down to is I've watched the first one over 200 times and I can watch it alot more. I've watched ROTF about 30x and I'm not sure how many more times I will be watching it. For my "new" nostalgia I'll stick with Chris Nolan and The Dark Knight

Lastjustice wrote:
Who knew was a Toy Comerical? We the target audience, who was all of 5-12 back in the 80s? I didn't think about that as a 6 year old. Sure I might heard an adult say that about some cartoons being toy commericals, but exactly why it was didnt click. I just saw a show I liked and wanted see it. I doubt most kids who went to see it were so different. Parents took us to it thniking just be some mindless fluff that they d have sit thru....not that it be this horrorfic ambush that it was. It was entirely too dark and cruel for the intented audience, and too shallow for adults. To mean thats a terrible movie that fails in every way.

Nowdays unless you were a fan of the original series, it doesnt really hold peoples attention. Kids wouldnt get the emotional impact of prime dying as my niece and nephew didnt even register that Prowl, Ironhide and others were killed since the characters hadnt really sank in to them when I'd showed them it. Which was hilarious for them even to pick apart the massive plot holes as lil kids heh. Uncle Mike why does the Matrix kill Unicron? It just does, they dont explain it at all.

The new films try explain majority of the stuff. Like the All spark didnt randomly kill Megatron, it was built up ahead of time it merging with a transformer would kill them. All the pieces are there and theres also outside stuff to fill in more blanks so you re not left wondering.

New movies I do refer to as the greatest 2 and half hour long commericals heh. I think everyone knows the product placement is definitely going be there. With the autobots turning into cars, its infact quite natural. They d be silly not to take advantage of this. Transformers has a long hostiry of selling out, but having fun while doing it. I dont see why we d expect it to change now.

If you really think Racism is the case, lets really deconstruct this train of thought then. Ive seen enough people claim this, but I have say I dont agree with them. For this movie be racist that would imply all transformers are a race or emulating one. So does that mean all the rest of the robots are a race too, and if so what are they and on what grounds are this race? Is simply the voice actor? The way they speak, what they look like? serious for you be right and have proof there has be a consistent pattern between all other transformers for that to hold true.

So if it's simply the voice actor, Skids is voiced by a white voice actor. Remo williams also voiced Frenzy in the first film as well as Mudflap.If the characters were so out and out offensive you think Remo Willaims would have played Mudflap? Jazz has always been voiced by a black actor in G1, Animated, and the movie, which Darius McCrazy who voiced him said it was an honor to follow in Scatman Crothers shoes. Yeah thats really racist if its an honor play a character. Which I'm white and Jazz was always one of my favorites too,he was a cool character, I was sad they killed him in the movies. Things that are universally awesome have no race, as they belong to everyone.

Sure the Fallen is also voiced by a black man, but you know what, a white guy has voiced Megatron for last 25 years, whos pretty much the metallic version of Hitler. Majority of the decepticons are voiced by white actors (is hasbro saying all white people are evil? No cause we aren't retarded.), but since when is who plays a character a reflection on the person or their race? If it were no one would want to ever act as a villain.

The whole we dont read thing, thats ripped totally out of context. If you watched the movie and paid attentioned NO ONE CLAIMED THEY COULD READ THE GYLPHS BUT JETFIRE AND THE FALLEN! Not bumble bee, not Wheelie, not megatron or the twins. So how is that racist if only a handful of characters could read the symbols? Again this all stems from one thing, people who assume this is racist have negative stereotypes locked in their head. They re connecting dots the movie didn't.

If someone drew a small gremlin and had them setting off fireworks and laughing evily, then someone asks them whats that, you reply it's Michael Bay. I then show the picture to Michael Bay, he goes hey neat lil monster I might use that in a film. He doesnt get offended despite it was a shot at him. Why..because he doesnt see himself that way.

And the people who dont get offended by the movie dont see themselves as goofy idiot posers, as they dont consider that their race.(my friend who didnt care for the film since shes a G1 fangirl, is black and bashed the movie plenty, she'd said was racist if she thought so since she never sugarcoats.) If you consider being goofy looking buck teeth,illiterate, dumb and talking Gangsta being is what a black person is; as thats first thing that pops into your head then may be you re the racist as sounds like you have a very negative association of them. (or anyone else who feels this way.)

I come from chicago, I have plenty of postive black role models to look up and dont connect those dots. People like Michael Jordan,Scott Pippen, Walter Payton, Lovie Smith, Derek Lee. None of these men remind me the slightest of the twins. I dont connect nothing but bad things to them and neither did the movie.

What does remind me of the twins, poser idiots whom I think we re supposed to laugh at heh(like in the video of boys in the hood by dynamite hack, just first thing I think of when I see the twins.). Which African Americans, last I knew werent laying claim to being poser idiots as Gangsta isnt a race. Neither is talking like a surfer or a hippie like beachcomber does. No more than talking like Clint Eastwood as Ironhide does, or Mirage in the original series talking like Dean martin, or grimlock like a caveman.

They are simply robots coming from another world learning our language through the world wide web and talking on jargon that suits their personality as the first movie clearly described. The twins happen be basically kids who are trying really hard act cool. My best friends lil brother was same way, as he did all kinds of stupid stuff prove he was hard as older kids. It's funny how many kids emulate Gangsta here, and my neighborhood is mostly hispanic.

I fail see how this train of thought really has a leg to stand on. Anymore than saying the cars in Cars are rednecks cause Larry cable guy voiced a buck toothed tow truck. I dont see critics headhunting them down for that, I think we can let this go too. Besides when were critics considered experts on anything besides movies?

As for Meghan Fox, I had no probelm with her. She looks better and worse in some shots, she by no means offends me. As for the potty humour and drugs...transformers has a long history making crude jokes. I would like them raise the bar alittle on them humour but it never bothered me as I laughed at some of it.

Michael Bay?

Is that you?

Michael Bay?

Is that you?

Last I knew Bay didnt come from the chicago land area, is almost a foot taller than me, and 20 some years older give or take. My first name is Michael and have been in 2 movies and thats where simliarities end...(ok I have been known to want blow things up.)

That said you didnt need copy my entire quote, as was rather superflueous. You dont care have an intelligent discussion about it just say so. Hyperboles and jokes do little to prove your point though.

Pearl Harbor is actually a good movie. Mega-man 2 was my favorite. And I like G1 Movie better than ROTF,to sum it up too much human nonsense. I understand that it would be impossible to make an all robot movie because the first was a cartoon and ROTF is an actual movie. What it all comes down to is I've watched the first one over 200 times and I can watch it alot more. I've watched ROTF about 30x and I'm not sure how many more times I will be watching it. For my "new" nostalgia I'll stick with Chris Nolan and The Dark Knight

- I hadnt heard anything good about Pearl Harbor other than it "bombed" hehe. (in the litteral sense.)

- I d imagine so as most people say Megaman 2 or 3 are their favorites...long as you dont say 6 for the NES games..you will have your gamer card ripped up on sight.

-You seem to understand the gist of it why movie is way it is. If they were going do an all robot film they d been better off making it like the newest CGI TMNT(ninja turtles) movie, as that would be far more cost effective.

-As for Nolan films, not a huge fan. They re decent, but people overrate the slag out of them like they re Primus' gift to comic fans. Granted they re superior to Batman and Robin, but they had plenty of off moments. Like the magical device that evaporates water instantly and doesnt damage humans who are made of 60% water. In DK The joker gets tossed in a cell and the only thing keeping him there is a single cop whos inside the cell with him. Or somehow the national guard manages miss two boat loads full of barrels before loading passagers. Everyone jobs to the joker thru out the movie. Batman is incredibly reckless with the lives of law enforcement(He eseems go harder on the cops the criminals) and causes entirely too much property damage in both films. Not bad movies but dont really feel like good batman movies.

^ probably a better concept than something m. bay can come up with. you basically described some great G1 characters. I'm switching to a G1 "fanboy". we got The Touch wtf do you bayverse youngins got?

NormT81 wrote:^ probably a better concept than something m. bay can come up with. you basically described some great G1 characters. I'm switching to a G1 "fanboy". we got The Touch wtf do you bayverse youngins got?

- Bay probably wouldnt be the guy make a Batman movie either. I do however think he d made better superman film than Bryan Singer did with Superman Returns as anything would been more entertaining than him stalking Lois like he's freaking Edward from Twilight and being a dead beat dad. You might actually seen some super powered fights had he directed it, as I picture Bay using Doomsday, Brainaic, or General Zod, something that causes alot of damage and can stand up in a fight with the man of steel.

Basically Nolan wanted make social commentary about things, like taking things to extremes in the pursuit of justice. Which if I imagine George W Bush is batman then suddenly all things make sense the movies brillant in a almost retarded way as I could see batman actting that way under that train of thought...but batman isnt the character to make that point with because hes supposed one of the best planners and intelligent characters. Writing him like a noob does fit batman at all. Why I say its a so so batman film in terms of characterization.(I could really go to town on both movies Ill leave it at that.) Bale also has an awful voice as Batman. He's alright as Bruce Wayne but I think they could picked a much better over all actor than Bale. This video sums it up quite well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2yv8aT0UFc

The animated series with Kevin Conroy ultimately probably the best version of batman theres been to date.

- As for the out of touch you mean? I ll take Link Park over that, as the video to new divide pretty awesome looking. Someone apparently got the memo the fallen is on fire that bay didnt. It shows stuff from the movie without actually spoiling anything major, which was a good solution to the matter.

The actual movie scores set a much better mood to the story than hair metal. Movie scores tend be much more timeless as 20 years from now people will likely draw the same response from them they do today versus people who dont even remember the 80s will likely chuckle at the Touch or Dare. I'm not saying its bad because its old as Im 30 and grew up in the 80s, just I can see easily how people who arent from that era will and have mocked it. Some things just dont age well.

I am "Transformers: The Movie" all the way

Me, although I'm inclined to say, Super Mario Bros. Movie > ROTF

tom_p1980 wrote:Me, although I'm inclined to say, Super Mario Bros. Movie > ROTF

Oh my god, that's so funny I nearly died laughing. >___________< Hahaha.

That's a tough one though... I'd have to watch it again but I think you may be onto something there... Mario Bros. might actually have the one up (geddit?) on ROTF.

Chaoslock wrote:

fowlowl2626 wrote:Who is with me?

AYE!

Yep. Me too.

What I've Done was on minutes to midnight and New Divide really sucks compared to other Linkin Park stuff. Thank god I saw them before that song came out. And the guy who suggested the CGI like the newer TMNT for T'Formers was so right. All the acting in ROTF gets worse everytime I watch. Sam and The Puerto Rican Jesus are the only two I can tolerate in the civilian world. Lennox and Tyrese are both well played also.