The Energon Pub

Gestalts are absolutely my FAVORITE part of Transformers. What's better than a giant transforming robot? Giant transforming robots that can combine into BIGGER giant transforming robots, of course!

So I just had a though. Specifically, I was thinking about the concept art from Cybertron Leo Breaker, y'know with the articulated hand, it really is a shame the budget ran out on that. What if someone (Hasbro, Takara, 3rd party, etc.) made a combiner, but started with the limb modes in mind? Prioritizing making the combiner perfect. As in, start with the limbs, make them perfect, then work your way out to the robot mode, and tack the altmode on at the end (or at least worry about it last).

I'm curious what everyone has to say about it, but I'd say stay within these restrictions:
1) Limbs have to be self-inclusive. So, the limbs have to be able to transform to any mode without partsforming (outside of say, the figure's gun), you shouldn't need to at least.

2) The gestalt head need not be self-inclusive, but it should have some function in the torso-bot's robot mode, say, as a gun. Perhaps it could fold in on itself see: Classics Voyager OP's smokestack gun) or split and double on itself the other way, hiding the face in favor of a weapon or bit of altmode.

I'd say the hands should also be articulated.

For a general example, I was thinking to myself, what can a hand become? Well, my immediate thought was something insectoid, or perhaps a squid or octopus. Have the fingers hinge out to expand and unpeg from one another, if not just have some more tentacles or legs hinge/swivel/balljoint out from the lower arm area. Then the upper arm just transforms slightly to become the rear of a spider/head of a squid/etc. As for robot mode, the lower arm splits and tentacles/legs fold up onto what become the robot legs, and the upper torso and arms unfold from the upper arm/shoulder area.

So, fire away!

Ive toyed with this theory. Its a difficult pill to swallow to say the least. I tried putting energon bruticus into a "leg" mode, and it looked awkward. I always thought it would be cool if Devastator could be a leg, Menasor an arm,, Bruticus another arm, Abominus another leg, and Predaking as the torso in an ultra deceptigod-like war machine.

As for your "Limbs come first" rule, well, Im pretty sure FOC Bruticus was just that, it just got screwed by its scramble city gimmick. Look at the energon combiners and tell me that gimmick couldn't be handled better.

I would rely on third party. If we could get combiners like Hurcules, Im sure its a possibility. Just not one in high demand.

I would think the "Gestalt comes first" idea is the source of the idea for Power Core Combiners, actually.

Valandar wrote:I would think the "Gestalt comes first" idea is the source of the idea for Power Core Combiners, actually.

Except not at all, if anything I said in my post was read. I love the PCCs, I do. But they're pretty terrible when it comes to the arms.

RAcast wrote:

Valandar wrote:I would think the "Gestalt comes first" idea is the source of the idea for Power Core Combiners, actually.

Except not at all, if anything I said in my post was read. I love the PCCs, I do. But they're pretty terrible when it comes to the arms.

And the legs, for that matter.

I agree, PCCs are a great idea, but they definitely did not work from the combined mode down.
Yes, the ultimate idea is to have them combine, but it's not in line with RAcast's 'guidelines'.

But still, Love Your PCCs.

I totally misinterpreted your post, been happening alot. I thought you meant A combiner starting with a gestalt team.

BeastProwl wrote:I totally misinterpreted your post, been happening alot. I thought you meant A combiner starting with a gestalt team.

I was wondering why you started talking about a gestalt made out of gestalts. That sounds hilariously impractical! And amazing!

BeastProwl wrote:I totally misinterpreted your post, been happening alot. I thought you meant A combiner starting with a gestalt team.

Let's get DarkStar onto it, now!

I miss Godzillabot, he'd have tried his darnedest to digibash the monstrosity I described...

At least for Hasbro, focusing to much on one aspect detracts from the others. The FoC Combaticons are a great example. Especially Onslaught.

BeastProwl wrote:I miss Godzillabot, he'd have tried his darnedest to digibash the monstrosity I described...

Where's he been lately, anyway, I haven't seen any of his ingenious digibashes in far too long!

RAcast wrote:As in, start with the limbs, make them perfect, then work your way out to the robot mode, and tack the altmode on at the end (or at least worry about it last).

Tagging the alt mode on last is what they seem to have done with Hercules. Those alt modes are very unconvincing compared to Giant.

Leave the bot modes for last - they have way more flexibility in their design.

Hands can use something like the Masterpiece Prime design (but reversible, to be either a left or right hand) and become a block which stores away inside a slightly larger block. The larger block can then be any kind of altmode kibble - it doesn't have to be enormous compared to the arm.

Feet can be less detailed. Anything vaguely wedge-shaped or even approximating the bottom slice of a warped pyramid will do. A plain ol' box will do. It could be anything on an altmode from a turret to a cab to a cockpit to the limb-robot's own feet or forearms acting as a clawed combiner foot.

You could even abandon the idea of very humanlike hands, and use a generic articulated four-clawed design for both hands and feet. It'd cut down on the altmode kibble, and could even actually transform into a number of altmode-specific items, such as a railgun, four-claw radar/sensor dish, crane grab-claw, shovel/scoop, mine broom etc. This form would also be a lot easier to break in half and put half in each small-robot arm or leg, instead of having to have a combiner fist attached to the small-robot torso somehow. The design is also inherently reversible for left and right combiner hands. Its only issue is that it forms a combiner hand with three fingers and a thumb instead of four and a thumb. (A six-digit version where the spare digit folded away when not needed might also be possible.)

Use standard sizing for the limbs, even if it breaks scale between the altmodes. The robot waists and hips can be used as combiner elbows and knees, saving transformation joints. I can see how to create ball-and-socket shoulder and hip joints by having each limb-bot sport either a ball or two ball halves which could snap together in limb mode, and letting the torso-bot have four sockets (which could be repurposed in altmode as gun barrels, jet/rocket outlets, or other decorative kibble.

There would be _some_ limitation to designs for the limb-bots, as they'd have to incorporate the ball halves and combiner digits somewhere, but those components shouldn't be terribly large compared to the rest of the limb. The torso-bot would need to be strongly tabbed together in combiner mode, but on the plus side it would only need to be a brick - it wouldn't form the upper legs, or need to lend its own shoulder or hip joints to the combiner. It'd be able to incorporate a combiner waist swivel as an option, though, and that could be borrowed from the smaller robot's own. (Have we actually had a combiner with a waist joint before? My knowledge of more recent combiner robots is a bit flaky.)

Geminii wrote:There would be _some_ limitation to designs for the limb-bots, as they'd have to incorporate the ball halves and combiner digits somewhere, but those components shouldn't be terribly large compared to the rest of the limb. The torso-bot would need to be strongly tabbed together in combiner mode, but on the plus side it would only need to be a brick - it wouldn't form the upper legs, or need to lend its own shoulder or hip joints to the combiner. It'd be able to incorporate a combiner waist swivel as an option, though, and that could be borrowed from the smaller robot's own. (Have we actually had a combiner with a waist joint before? My knowledge of more recent combiner robots is a bit flaky.)

Definitely enjoyed reading that post, and you're right, I should have said to leave the robot mode for last, not the altmode.

As for your question, FoC Bruticus and Energon Devastator/Constructicon Maximus have waist swivels. Energon Steamhammer is a REALLY fun mold, and it makes a fantastic torso (I love his head scuplt).

Beast Wars Magmatron, Tripredacus and Magnaboss might be the best existing Transformers to comply with your guidelines.
Magmatron was definitely designed with the 'gestallt' mode as a primary concern: Tripledacus and Magnaboss slightly less so, but they are all completely self-contained. Of course, they are all three-part combiners, and not the more common five-part gestallts. And Magmatron's component parts only have one additional mode, with no seperate robot modes.

I still don't understand what you guys are talking about. A combiner made of combined gestalts?

GuyIncognito wrote:I still don't understand what you guys are talking about. A combiner made of combined gestalts?

As I see it, RAcast is suggesting a normal five-bot gestalt whose engineering works from the combined mode down.

In other words, the combined mode takes priority over the single robot and alt-modes. The tendency, for a lot of combiners, is to focus on the individual modes, to the expense of the combination.

In this way, you'd avoid that.

Am I correct, RAcast?

Va'al wrote:

GuyIncognito wrote:I still don't understand what you guys are talking about. A combiner made of combined gestalts?

As I see it, RAcast is suggesting a normal five-bot gestalt whose engineering works from the combined mode down.

In other words, the combined mode takes priority over the single robot and alt-modes. The tendency, for a lot of combiners, is to focus on the individual modes, to the expense of the combination.

In this way, you'd avoid that.

Am I correct, RAcast?

Right on the money, Va'al!

Now I get it. Yes, that would be cool. I prefer to display combiners in gestalt mode anyway, so I would gladly accept individual figures that aren't so great on their own but form a really amazing gestalt.

I dunno I think I'd rather see someone try to make a combiner with Predaking as the torso and Abominus, Bruticus, Menasor, and Piranacon as the limbs.