The Energon Pub

If you believe in God, why do you? Why do you see reason to believe that we are significant in the eyes of some strange cosmic creator? Look at the size of the universe. Look at how long it took for us to enter it in the form of modern man. Look at time. Cosmically, how long are we in the universe? Not a very significant amount of time. Look at Earth's timeline. We haven't been around for very long. Dinosaurs were around way longer than us. Why weren't they "God's chosen people?" Why aren't any other modern creatures considered "God's chosen people." If we are supposedly created in God's image, why are there multiple races, and thus the conflicts that inevitably result from such diversity?
Can someone explain this belief in "God" to me?

Their parents told them it was true, just as their parents before them did.

i hate religion...like seriously hate it but living on this planet for 23 yrs ive experienced enough in supernatural activities to realize that there is something more to this world that science cant explaine yet, but ya......its very complicated for me

Because things happen that cannot be explained. Answered prayers that I know are no coincidence. It's on a personal level. And basically because simple common sense would tell a person that God exists. Scientific athiests want us to believe that we were an accident. But let's just look at the incredible odds of this world and our existence being an accident. Let say the Big Bang is correct. I'm no math wiz but the odds of it happening are astronomical. Now, after the astronomical odds of the big bang you have astronomical odds of stars forming. Then astronomical odds of planets forming. Then astronomical odds of planets with building blocks of life. Then the astronomical odds of a single celled organism finding a way to become "alive". Then the astronomical odds of that single celled organism having a mutation that would allow it to become something a little more. Then the astronomical odds that something a little more has another mutation to become something even more (go throught this step millions, possibly billions of times) until you get to the astronomical odds that we have the diversity of plants and animals and humans that inhabat the Earth. The astronomical odds that Jupiter is in a perfect position to capture most large outter space bodies that could obliterate the Earth by now. The astronomical odds that this planet just happens to have air and water and all the things needed to support and sustain life. Evolution istself is just a series of astronomical odds. For instance, a species has a mutation that "just so happens" to be beneficial and passes that on. This "mistake" happens millions of times so that said species ultimately becomes a differant species. What are the odds that a mutation will happen? Now what are the odds that a mutation that is beneficial will happen. It's unfathomable to even try to do the math of just how astronomically impossible all this we have is purely an accident when the odds are so stacked against it. I think the bigger question is HOW can one not believe in God, at least in some form? The fact that science is even possible proves God. God created things with a pattern. The fact that we can use science to prove things just shows that Gods design is at hand.

I'm not so sure we actually know the odds of the Big Bang happening. Planets, suns, etc forming did so because, well, that's just what happens when you get large amounts of matter together. Odds don't really figure into it here. That's gravity doing what it does best.

Also, that air and water is necessary to a lot of life on this planet is only a byproduct of there being a lot of those two substances on it. As far as we know there is no universal "building block of life" that is inherently necessary to biological organisms. Hell, there are bacteria for which oxygen is utterly lethal. That the Earth is so fit for the creatures who live there is because they evolved for it.


It's easy to not believe in God because there exists no evidence for that the idea is in fact true. That there is a considerable amount of things we do not yet know about the universe is not a passable argument for the existance of God. What we don't know could be anything so it's irrational to assume that there is a creator being hidden somewhere because we don't have every answer.

People talk about how many prayers get answered. I'd rather look at the number of prayers that DON'T get answered. Look at the untold trillions of prayers that God seems to ignore. Look at how many Christian children die every year. Were their parents not praying correctly?

But I'll tell you what, let's do a test. We'll see if prayer works. Let's get twenty million Christians to pray for a soldier wounded in the Iraq war to regenerate an amputated arm. If that soldier grows a new arm, I will happily admit that I've been wrong about God this whole time.

I'm sick of this nickel-and-dime crap from The Almighty. People get over illness or find needed money all the time, without prayer.

That's what it would take for me to believe in God. A documented case of an amputee growing a new arm, without the aid of advanced medical science. Considering God supposedly created an entire new person from a man's rib, a new arm shouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.

Okay, basically it's like this:

Think back to the beginning of the universe. For most atheists, they'll think this was the Big Bang (well, at least if my experience of atheists is anything to go by). Now, what caused that? Okay, maybe you have an explanation. What caused that? And what caused that? And so on and so forth.

Eventually, there will be something that's just been there without coming from something else. This is either:

a) Some sort of god.

b) Something other than a god.

There is no conclusive evidence one way or the other on this, so feel free to pick one option or neither for your belief (picking neither would basically amount to agnosticism, if I'm not mistaken).

Note that this is different from determining the validity of any particular religion, which is a much more complicated matter.

The Chaos Bringer says,

If we are supposedly created in God's image, why are there multiple races, and thus the conflicts that inevitably result from such diversity?

The image being a two legs to stand on, two arms to grab with and the ability to reason.

The different colours are from melatonin in the skin and the migration of man.

If you go back far enough, we're all black with melatonin. Man came from the trees somewhere in Africa, followed the herds migrating, and made base camps. Now some of those camps branched following other herds and so on. Now occasional the far removed Man(as a species) would come back with the original gene pool and bred the seed of Man.

Now, somewhere in Mesopotania, a whole group of Man decided that they could eat plants and not have to chase the herds migrating. Once they learned how to harvest the plants and then save the seeds to plant again later, they built a permanent statement. No more herd chasing. Once this happened, trade developed. With trade came written language. Why? Because the barter system isn't always the way to go, especially with trade coming from distant cousins still chasing herds.

Meanwhile Man is still spreading, Europe, India via the southern route, Russia and Asia via the Northern route. Meanwhile still back trading and stilling the seed of Man. Then ppl are in SE Asia and take to the sea, from there they go to Indonesia, Micronesia, Australia and finally to the Hawaiian islands. theoretically, possible to S America.

Now various Ice Ages come along and a land bridge forms connecting N Asia to N America. So tribesman chase the herds crossing the landbridge to form the native America and continent to form the Aztecs, and Myans in S. America. It is possible that migrating Man cam from Europe and settled parts of NE America. The Viking did it as recent as 1000 years ago.

So by now Man has spread over the entire world, bred back along trade routes and brought the knowledge with them. The fear of Lightning and Earthquakes, then the fears that they had became gods.

Meanwhile Man still on the equator will have more Melatonin than Man that has moved N or S of it.

Hence different skin tones.

Religion came after that is places that had vast populations, i.e. Mesopotania and Asia. These spread to the religions that we have today. They came from fear of the natural elements. Gods were created. When the population moved the religions followed and changed(adapted) to the new environment until the modern Religions developed.

Hence the world as we know it today.

HoosierDaddy wrote:Scientific athiests want us to believe that we were an accident. But let's just look at the incredible odds of this world and our existence being an accident. Let say the Big Bang is correct. I'm no math wiz but the odds of it happening are astronomical. Now, after the astronomical odds of the big bang you have astronomical odds of stars forming. Then astronomical odds of planets forming. Then astronomical odds of planets with building blocks of life. Then the astronomical odds of a single celled organism finding a way to become "alive".

Someone has already provided a really good counter arguement to this one. its called the anthropic principle. its a real eye opener.

Then the astronomical odds of that single celled organism having a mutation that would allow it to become something a little more. Then the astronomical odds that something a little more has another mutation to become something even more (go throught this step millions, possibly billions of times) until you get to the astronomical odds that we have the diversity of plants and animals and humans that inhabat the Earth

This is evolution. anyone who understands it properly can explain that 'odds' are nothing to do with it really. there is nothing "chancy" about evolution. it would be more correct to marvel at the odds of a mutation not happening.

oh, and also, dont forget that with these 'astronimical odds', if you want to call them that, we do have the entire universe to look at to find these 'astronomical odds' coming to fruition.

you might find it amazing that we happen to be in that very place that these odds have come about, but if we weren't, we wouldnt be having this discussion would we?

nintendofreakgcn wrote:Okay, basically it's like this:

Think back to the beginning of the universe. For most atheists, they'll think this was the Big Bang (well, at least if my experience of atheists is anything to go by). Now, what caused that? Okay, maybe you have an explanation. What caused that? And what caused that? And so on and so forth.

the same arguement can easily be applied to a god, rather than whatever caused the big bang. not forgetting that being an atheist doesn't mean you belive in the Big Bang Theory.

if god was behind the big bang, however, (i love it how theists, after evidence for the big bang became highly persuasive, took it for there own moment of 'creation') then dont us humans look very small and pathetic all of a sudden?

Just how DJ sais!

But one thing more!
Religues ppl say it's imoral and wrong to make love with the own family ore masturbate, they believe in that but still think that a man and his clone breaded the whole population of this planet!?

Dead Metal wrote:Just how DJ sais!

But one thing more!
Religues ppl say it's imoral and wrong to make love with the own family ore masturbate, they believe in that but still think that a man and his clone breaded the whole population of this planet!?

yeah, i never understood the thing about not being able to masturbate. in hindsight, now in my late twenties, there is NO WAY IN HELL i could avoided that particular sin. you hold it to go to the toilet anyway, right..?

skippytron wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:Just how DJ sais!

But one thing more!
Religues ppl say it's imoral and wrong to make love with the own family ore masturbate, they believe in that but still think that a man and his clone breaded the whole population of this planet!?

yeah, i never understood the thing about not being able to masturbate. in hindsight, now in my late twenties, there is NO WAY IN HELL i could avoided that particular sin. you hold it to go to the toilet anyway, right..?

Yep! No wasting tissues with me!

Dudes, that is nasty.

But I do find the whole Adam n Eve thing entirly confusing...

Psycological reasons, humans as a whole exibit some form of inferiority complex and feel the need to worship or revel something so that they dont feel insecure and as such they entrust their fate and very being to something that,by all scientific reason, doesnt exist.

Cole Regnum wrote:Psycological reasons, humans as a whole exibit some form of inferiority complex and feel the need to worship or revel something so that they dont feel insecure and as such they entrust their fate and very being to something that,by all scientific reason, doesnt exist.

This need is likely amplified when confronted with things like the age of the universe, the apparent 'emptiness' of the universe, and the possible bleak, ultimate 'fate' of the universe.

like some type of -opposite of claustrophobia-whatever that is called. brings the world in a bit closer so its more tangeable.

skippytron wrote:

HoosierDaddy wrote:Scientific athiests want us to believe that we were an accident. But let's just look at the incredible odds of this world and our existence being an accident. Let say the Big Bang is correct. I'm no math wiz but the odds of it happening are astronomical. Now, after the astronomical odds of the big bang you have astronomical odds of stars forming. Then astronomical odds of planets forming. Then astronomical odds of planets with building blocks of life. Then the astronomical odds of a single celled organism finding a way to become "alive".

Someone has already provided a really good counter arguement to this one. its called the anthropic principle. its a real eye opener.

Then the astronomical odds of that single celled organism having a mutation that would allow it to become something a little more. Then the astronomical odds that something a little more has another mutation to become something even more (go throught this step millions, possibly billions of times) until you get to the astronomical odds that we have the diversity of plants and animals and humans that inhabat the Earth

This is evolution. anyone who understands it properly can explain that 'odds' are nothing to do with it really. there is nothing "chancy" about evolution. it would be more correct to marvel at the odds of a mutation not happening.

So basically you're saying that odds count in every day life but when you are trying to disprove God the odds all of a sudden are meaningless? Face it, whether you (or any other atheist) likes it or not, the odds DO play a factor. And the odds of the Big Bang happening and ultimately becomes the universe we know currently are so astronomically ridiculous that it isn't even calculatable. Go ahead and deny that if it makes you feel better and helps you not to have to worry about the wrath of God but in general, it cannot be ignored.

So, er, what are the odds of God happening? I'm just curious.

Kjell wrote:So, er, what are the odds of God happening? I'm just curious.

Once you take that into account, you have to factor in the odds of believing in the right God. I'd calculate the odds of God existing (and creating the universe) would be roughly equal to picking the correct lottery numbers for an entire year and then letting it all ride on picking the what number you roll on a six-sided die. I wonder if Vegas is taking bets on this one.

HoosierDaddy wrote:

skippytron wrote:

HoosierDaddy wrote:Scientific athiests want us to believe that we were an accident. But let's just look at the incredible odds of this world and our existence being an accident. Let say the Big Bang is correct. I'm no math wiz but the odds of it happening are astronomical. Now, after the astronomical odds of the big bang you have astronomical odds of stars forming. Then astronomical odds of planets forming. Then astronomical odds of planets with building blocks of life. Then the astronomical odds of a single celled organism finding a way to become "alive".

Someone has already provided a really good counter arguement to this one. its called the anthropic principle. its a real eye opener.

Then the astronomical odds of that single celled organism having a mutation that would allow it to become something a little more. Then the astronomical odds that something a little more has another mutation to become something even more (go throught this step millions, possibly billions of times) until you get to the astronomical odds that we have the diversity of plants and animals and humans that inhabat the Earth

This is evolution. anyone who understands it properly can explain that 'odds' are nothing to do with it really. there is nothing "chancy" about evolution. it would be more correct to marvel at the odds of a mutation not happening.

So basically you're saying that odds count in every day life but when you are trying to disprove God the odds all of a sudden are meaningless? Face it, whether you (or any other atheist) likes it or not, the odds DO play a factor. And the odds of the Big Bang happening and ultimately becomes the universe we know currently are so astronomically ridiculous that it isn't even calculatable. Go ahead and deny that if it makes you feel better and helps you not to have to worry about the wrath of God but in general, it cannot be ignored.

hah! the odds are meaningless, human beings tend to sensationalise 1in something odds

i saw a car registration that read RTK 219K, the odds of that happening are really very low sao it's amazing that i saw that particulare car license plate! it must be a god ordained that i would see that plate today in this place.


as to evolution; basically it's a coin toss, best to three, but any time i lose we ignore that result, any time i win we take it into account.

or we have santa's sack, it has infinite presents, but you are only allowed to take one, however after unwrapping it you can put it back if you don't like it, and take another one, until you are happy with your present.

as you can see their is a random element, but ultimately it doesn't effect the outcome. i will eventually win the toin coss, and you will get a present you like.

Ok, you want to talk about odds, I can talk about odds.
What are the odds that a supreme being would pick our planet out of all others to put life on? What are the odds that our species, out of all others, would be chosen to be a master race above all other animals? Why us?
Ok, I guess you could say that God knew all along what species on what planet in what solar system in what galaxy he would choose to be his special people? If he knew all along, why did he bother creating everything alse? You could say it was to decorate the sky. So why did he make stuff so far away that we simply won't see it if we look? And why did he make that galaxy that is destined to slam into ours and destroy all life? Why did he give us a star that would eventually grow so hot that Earth would be scorched? Why would he create Nemesis?(if that exists, but I see no reason why it couldn't)

If yo believe that God created us, then ask yourself: why did he make us a terminal species and then place us on a terminal world in a terminal galaxy? I thought he "loved us."

Why belive in God...Personal peace of mind, solice, comfort, any number of things. I believe religion, and apparently the existence of God, was made so people had those kinds of things. I guess its part of that inferiority compelx someone wrote about.

As far as the existence of God, I do not know nor does it matter to me. But if I were to contemplate the existence of a truly omnipotent being controlling each and every thing that occurs, I wouldn't be able to believe that. It's a faath thing, of which I have none.

As far as the odds discussion is concerned, the odds of a micro-organism being able to live and evolve to modern man is basiclaly up to natural selection. Those who are best suited to survive, do. Those who don't, die.

Anybody got the water in the puddle analogy from the Hitchhiker 's Guide guy?

DesalationReborn wrote:Anybody got the water in the puddle analogy from the Hitchhiker 's Guide guy?

As requested:

Douglas Adams wrote:Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.

For the hard of understanding this passage is reffering to the people who try to prove god exists by saying "look at the world around us, it was created to suit us perfectly," thereby missing the point that the world suits us perfectly as we have evolved to fit the world not the other way around.

~

As for the great prayer experiment about regrowing limbs, does this mean that salamanders are better at praying then people? Does that make god a newt and amphibeans his chosen people? (See I am open to new ideas!)