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Counterpunch wrote:Sunstar wrote:Lets not go on the silly, bash the head in is okay idea but look at what is correct and incorrect in cultures.
Oh no, it's perfectly relevent and here's why...Sunstar wrote:Some cultures belived that only the strong and fit should survive and some cultures coddle their weak.
You're correct and not only that, you win the door prize!
This is especially perfect because I know that you're female (rl).
Coddle the weak...
Perfect.
(Now, this could get offensive, but it's said out of pragmatism and not villany...)
You know what women are? I'll tell you what they aren't. They aren't as strong as men. They aren't as big as men and they aren't as aggressive as men.
In almost every third world culture, women are second to men in almost everything. They're property, they're abused, they're dealt with unfairly.
That's the culture. That's their version of 'right'. They loose out on all the potential contributions women provide because of how they treat them.
Take away the rule and structure of 'right and moral' and women go back to being treated almost as good as dirt. How would you live with the constant threat of violence, rape, and abuse hanging over you?
You can argue all you want that the Autobots are 'corrupt', but you know what? the Decepticons lord that threat of violence, rape, and abuse over every world they visit.
Like I said, never said he wasn't willing to hurt and destroy. But did the others deserve to suffer from their leader's mistakes after he died? For a while maybe but if the Autobots were so good and pure, shouldn't they have forgiven the remaining forces and be amalgamated into Cybertronian society as equals? One would think so no?General Magnus wrote:Dynamax wrote:..while slowly being posessed by the not Futurama Robot Devil Unicron. And in the end at Energon he once again died to save the universe from Unicron once he regained himself after fighting off his control.General Magnus wrote:Dynamax wrote:You know it is Roddy's fault peace cannot be attained. They all team up to beat Unicron (except when Galvatron, who initially WANTED to side with Hot Rod to beat him but was tortured into attacking him) and as soon as big old Rodimus Prime takes command what does he do?
"Decepticons, thanks for the help...now get the hell off of my planet."
Chaar was the real slow death Mr. Kemp. Did you see how they suffered before Cyclonus heralded Galvatron's return? They were so weak some couldn't fully transform..or maintain it. When Rodimus and Grimlock came there, Roddy felt bad over what he had done...well too little too late. The moment Grimlock blew their cover, all the Decepticons saw the man that left them to die and opened fire.
Sure Galvy came back nutso but fort he most part he had their interests in mind, and Cyc did his best to keep his madness in check...but that too was Roddy's fault.
In all the fiction you have seen the bots win, the cons suffer (Chaar, BW, the treatment they got in Energon after GALVATRON saved the universe by sacrificing himself, because they were religated to watchdogs and after a decade were still mocked and mistreated)...yeah it's true of the reverse but the difference is that the bots claim to be peace loving and see everyone as equals, when it's deep rooted that in the end it's all the same. At least Megatron is honest about his goals.
In energon Megatron was wiling to destroy Earth, and even before waking up all he wanted was to destroy the Autobots.
Both times Prime just stood there. All he did in the need was bitchslap the real hero.
And ask yourself, Demolishor was loyal and he was geing trakstalked by the bots. Even after Tidal Wave and Cyclonus jumped ship, Demolishor struggled to stay on the bots side and he got trashtalked and insulted some more. Did he deserve it? No. What made him jump ship? The bots abuse.
And note that as soon as he died Megatron saved his spark and remade him. One of his last acts of benevolence before Unicron drove him mad but it proved that he cared for his own, despite Demolishor's misgivings.
I mean I am not saying the cons are totally justified nor the bots totally corrupt. it just both sides are dirty in this war.
I mean even the Beast Wars had their own forms of corruption. *coughProtoformXandtheTripredicusCouncilcough* I just like how that show showed that the Maximals were not perfect either.
Granted, but then again Megatron was sane when he aimed the Hydra Cannon at Earth, and guess who took a shot for billions of humans? Optimus Prime.
The Maximals from BW were extremy corrupted. Heck in the aftermath of BM ( Universe comics)they arrested Optmius Primal.
Counterpunch wrote:Uncrazzimatic wrote:Those of you who are defending the Autobots can I ask you a question? Do you believe that people are born 'good' or 'evil', or do you believe that it's a persons experience in life that shapes them? If you believe that it is experience that matters then ask your self how did these 'evil' Decepticons come to be from the 'good' society of the Autobots? Do you think Megatron and the others just woke up one day and said "Being nice is boring, lets start a war and opress the natives other planets! WOOOH!"? No. Something made them turn down that path, something in the society of pre-war cybertron must have been rotten enough to cause them to revolt, something must have created these monsterous Decepticons. Monsters some of them may be, but wasn't it Autobot society that created them in the first place?
Again, moral relativism.
Because something bad or unfair happened to a group of individuals, now an entire galaxy has to suffer to right a wrong they weren't involved in?
The Decepticons aren't just waging Civil War, unchecked they will simply consume without pause.
And yes, that is a bad thing. That's kind of the definition of evil.
Yes, right and wrong exist. If you don't think so, next time someone bashes in your skull when you aren't looking, takes your wallet, and kills your girlfriend; you can be assured that it's OK, because in their mind, it was a perfectly fair thing to do.
Uncrazzimatic wrote:Counterpunch wrote:Uncrazzimatic wrote:Those of you who are defending the Autobots can I ask you a question? Do you believe that people are born 'good' or 'evil', or do you believe that it's a persons experience in life that shapes them? If you believe that it is experience that matters then ask your self how did these 'evil' Decepticons come to be from the 'good' society of the Autobots? Do you think Megatron and the others just woke up one day and said "Being nice is boring, lets start a war and opress the natives other planets! WOOOH!"? No. Something made them turn down that path, something in the society of pre-war cybertron must have been rotten enough to cause them to revolt, something must have created these monsterous Decepticons. Monsters some of them may be, but wasn't it Autobot society that created them in the first place?
Again, moral relativism.
Because something bad or unfair happened to a group of individuals, now an entire galaxy has to suffer to right a wrong they weren't involved in?
The Decepticons aren't just waging Civil War, unchecked they will simply consume without pause.
And yes, that is a bad thing. That's kind of the definition of evil.
Yes, right and wrong exist. If you don't think so, next time someone bashes in your skull when you aren't looking, takes your wallet, and kills your girlfriend; you can be assured that it's OK, because in their mind, it was a perfectly fair thing to do.
I wasn't saying the Decepticons weren't wrong for attacking other worlds, I was saying that the Autobots were the ones that threw the snowball that would eventually roll down the hill of evil and turn in to the avalanche that is the Decepticon cause.
Counterpunch wrote:Uncrazzimatic wrote:Counterpunch wrote:Uncrazzimatic wrote:Those of you who are defending the Autobots can I ask you a question? Do you believe that people are born 'good' or 'evil', or do you believe that it's a persons experience in life that shapes them? If you believe that it is experience that matters then ask your self how did these 'evil' Decepticons come to be from the 'good' society of the Autobots? Do you think Megatron and the others just woke up one day and said "Being nice is boring, lets start a war and opress the natives other planets! WOOOH!"? No. Something made them turn down that path, something in the society of pre-war cybertron must have been rotten enough to cause them to revolt, something must have created these monsterous Decepticons. Monsters some of them may be, but wasn't it Autobot society that created them in the first place?
Again, moral relativism.
Because something bad or unfair happened to a group of individuals, now an entire galaxy has to suffer to right a wrong they weren't involved in?
The Decepticons aren't just waging Civil War, unchecked they will simply consume without pause.
And yes, that is a bad thing. That's kind of the definition of evil.
Yes, right and wrong exist. If you don't think so, next time someone bashes in your skull when you aren't looking, takes your wallet, and kills your girlfriend; you can be assured that it's OK, because in their mind, it was a perfectly fair thing to do.
I wasn't saying the Decepticons weren't wrong for attacking other worlds, I was saying that the Autobots were the ones that threw the snowball that would eventually roll down the hill of evil and turn in to the avalanche that is the Decepticon cause.
So...if I punch you and in response you kill my mother...that murder somehow becomes my fault?
Uncrazzimatic wrote:Counterpunch wrote:Uncrazzimatic wrote:Counterpunch wrote:Uncrazzimatic wrote:Those of you who are defending the Autobots can I ask you a question? Do you believe that people are born 'good' or 'evil', or do you believe that it's a persons experience in life that shapes them? If you believe that it is experience that matters then ask your self how did these 'evil' Decepticons come to be from the 'good' society of the Autobots? Do you think Megatron and the others just woke up one day and said "Being nice is boring, lets start a war and opress the natives other planets! WOOOH!"? No. Something made them turn down that path, something in the society of pre-war cybertron must have been rotten enough to cause them to revolt, something must have created these monsterous Decepticons. Monsters some of them may be, but wasn't it Autobot society that created them in the first place?
Again, moral relativism.
Because something bad or unfair happened to a group of individuals, now an entire galaxy has to suffer to right a wrong they weren't involved in?
The Decepticons aren't just waging Civil War, unchecked they will simply consume without pause.
And yes, that is a bad thing. That's kind of the definition of evil.
Yes, right and wrong exist. If you don't think so, next time someone bashes in your skull when you aren't looking, takes your wallet, and kills your girlfriend; you can be assured that it's OK, because in their mind, it was a perfectly fair thing to do.
I wasn't saying the Decepticons weren't wrong for attacking other worlds, I was saying that the Autobots were the ones that threw the snowball that would eventually roll down the hill of evil and turn in to the avalanche that is the Decepticon cause.
So...if I punch you and in response you kill my mother...that murder somehow becomes my fault?
Everyone has a limit, everyone can only be pushed so far untill they snap, sometimes when they snap the reaction is greater than the original push.
Mr. Kemp wrote:Burn: In regards to your response to General Magnus's post (Decepticons desire power and will destroy any who defy them), the one where you said "and you say that like it's a bad thing", yes it is a bad thing. A person can be as ambitious as he likes, but he has no right hurting others to obtain power.
Mr. Kemp wrote:
Grimlock86: There is a gargantuan difference between an uninhabited ruin, no matter how valuable it may be to archaeologists, and a planet full of people. Optimus sacrificed the ruins, knowing that there were no innocents in said ruins. There is no way in hell that an Autobot would sacrifice an entire planet just to win.
I'm sure a lot of innocent german citizens died in order to eliminate the nazis....anybody think WW2 was a big mistake?
Counterpunch wrote:
And thus they become the greater evil doers, creating injustice by responding back in increasingly more severe manners.
Night Raid wrote:You're right, but why blame ALL the Decepticons for the actions of just a few? I'm quite sure there are a great many Decepticons who are just fighting to save their own afts and killing Autobots so the Autobots won't kill them. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find a few who would just like the damn war to end.
General Magnus wrote:Night Raid wrote:You're right, but why blame ALL the Decepticons for the actions of just a few? I'm quite sure there are a great many Decepticons who are just fighting to save their own afts and killing Autobots so the Autobots won't kill them. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find a few who would just like the damn war to end.
Blitzwing comes to mind...
Night Raid wrote:You're right, but why blame ALL the Decepticons for the actions of just a few? I'm quite sure there are a great many Decepticons who are just fighting to save their own afts and killing Autobots so the Autobots won't kill them. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find a few who would just like the damn war to end.
Night Raid wrote:It's a possibility. Are YOU gonna say no to Megatron?
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