The Energon Pub

Ok, I GOT YOUR ATTENTION, so maybe you all won't be too fond of what i'm about to bring up, but I'm gonna take my licks for this and dish it out quite proper..for all you older Guys out there in Blog land help me understand why?? And for you youngins please exercise some restraint as I tear into the Hasbro Transformers concept..

G-1 will probably never die, and as far as them referencing Megatron and Optimus Prime in various incarnations in the multiple series we have seen.. thats wonderful.. but I will say that there has been only one series which has ventured to go far away from the Optimus prime and Megatron battle..

Oddly enough, that would be G-1 if you count the 1986 movie, and the japanese renditions which continued after the series was cancelled here in the US.. one of my favorite Heroes would be Star Saber, and his nemisis Deathzaurus....No Megatron and Optimus Prime story there..

Those were the most original additions to the Transformers Mythos and I look to that as a great achievement, because here in the US, Hasbro has to continually come up with new and redone versions of Optimus Prime and Megatron.. never leaving that base idea and name behind...

Yet, It seems like they are rehashing the same concept over and over and over again.. G-1 actually kept going..and changed the main characters and most of the supporting cast, yes though, the concept remained Good versus Evil, the lead roles and ways of doing battle changed, the story lines involved more outerspace battles and less earth involvement, it started here in the US with Rodimus Prime and Galvatron.. and trickled into Japan where the series splintered off into different shows..

I think that G-1 was brilliant and didn't stifle the the genre by rehashing the same thing over and over again.. how many series of G-1 esque Rehashing will it take to get us adults to get our kids to buy their toys 20, 30, 100, 1 million?? When will the series stop being rehashed and come to a different conclusion, different villains, different leaders, different motives..it just seems like the various Gundam series.. the series is popular and airs on tv in Japan, but what after that? A new series, new Gundams, new villains.. but same story line big red white blue robot with a main human pilot and his love story and personal issues versus zakus, Doms and variuos cool looking baddies..where is the individuality?


I just wish if they did do a new Transfoemrs series, why can't we change the leader names, why has there got to be a new Optimus and Megatron every series, and why does it have to be set here on earth..? why couldn't a side series be just as popular as the main series.. lets say for instance they did a side series set during the G-1 era, and occasionally you got cameos by the original autobots (peter Cullen Voices G-1 Prime) or decepticons(Frank Welker Voices G-1 Megatron), but the series main goal was to focus on those specific autobots in that series and their various missions.. now that would be a break from the big Optimus VS Megatron battles..

And not to mention cool new transformers whose designs and details on their own would be great as stand alone figures and not compliments to the big guns like Optimus Prime or Megatron..

I just think that with every series, they (Hasbro) hold on to what works,and it will eventually burn the series out.. because its the same thing every what like 3 to 4 years.. new bot designs, each time getting more and more outlandish and brightly rainbow colored.. and no where as appealing as it was in the G-1 line, where you had realistic vehicles and color schemes.. granted Starscream was a little off, but they do have stunt jets like the Blue angels which have color schemes like that..so it wasn't too far off to believe that he could get away with being that color..

To me every time I see an new Optimus Prime emerge and a new series debut with Megatron and starscream at each others throat, it just makes me wonder... why rehash the G-1 dichotomy? why not do a new original Transformers series? new names, new direction.. I mean I know G-1 was the shizznick.. but do we have to keep seeing it copied and rehashed over and over and over again? Why can't it just become a new original verison of the transfomers? New villains, new motives, new heroes.. why can't a leader of the autobots have a consistant fight and battle over leadership instead of starscream and megatron??

I will say this,the executives that oversaw Beast Wars were atleast on track before these new Hasbro executives came in and just kept releasing crap based on G-1 over and over and over again..I guess the big theme at their transformers meetings the last 6 years or so was, "Let's stick with what works, if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Time will tell if the series will stay alive or not.. but rehashing the same idea over and over and over and over again.. redoing the series and reimagining the robots forms helps, but eventually something has to change..

My thoughts anyways...

You could ask the same of Voltron. Lions always win out over the vehicle Voltron.


Think of it like this...say that Transformers war on cybertron is like World War II. Could you re write that war and use other characters instead of Churchill, Hitler, Mussolini, and Roosevelt?

I realize that the war for cybertron goes on for millenia, but in every war, only very few warriors get remembered in history books. Who remembers Alexander the Great's second in command? What about who helped Hannibal conquer Rome?


Since Megatron is millions of years old, he is basically the greatest warrior on Cybertron. His nemesis is Optimus Prime, who's a bit younger.

Everyone loves a story about two great protagonists. You don't get more iconic than Prime/Megatron.

Kronos wrote:You could ask the same of Voltron. Lions always win out over the vehicle Voltron.


Think of it like this...say that Transformers war on cybertron is like World War II. Could you re write that war and use other characters instead of Churchill, Hitler, Mussolini, and Roosevelt?

I realize that the war for cybertron goes on for millenia, but in every war, only very few warriors get remembered in history books. Who remembers Alexander the Great's second in command? What about who helped Hannibal conquer Rome?


Since Megatron is millions of years old, he is basically the greatest warrior on Cybertron. His nemesis is Optimus Prime, who's a bit younger.

Everyone loves a story about two great protagonists. You don't get more iconic than Prime/Megatron.

I agree..but lets consider, the battles between optimus and Megatron are epic in proportion, but what about an epic side battle that could become a tv series and toy line set in the G-1, or Beast Wars, or any other series that doesn't focus directly on Megatron or Optimus Prime, that centered on those specific autobots and their courageous battles, behind the scenes of what we already know, or a new direction entirely..

that would be different and not a rehash as we have repeatedly seen over and over again from Hasbro.. it's like a broken record with a different slip cover..resent to your house over and over again..playing the same thing repeatedly.. granted in new packaging, but once you get to the main center, its the same thing..

Lionides was remembered with his 300 Spartans.. and his battle was just a little side thing, but yielded greatness in History..though a king, and not as unknown as the 2nd in command of Alexander the Greats army, he was a valiant warrior never the less..

It'd be like the battles of Valiant, or the side battles that occured out side of King Arthurs court.. those stories were side stories from the big epic of King Arthur and camelot.. and actually hold on their own as great series..

Why do we always get OP & Megs? Trademarks. Business-wise, Hasbro is forced to redesign and reissue their 'core' figures every couple years, or risk losing the trademark.
So while it sucks there is no creativity in the line, there's at least a defensible reason behind it.

Now, to the other side of the point, of why isn't there any more creativity in the line, it comes down to investment.

In the 80's, toys were big business, and all the big toy lines paid good money to studios to hash out the concepts. Some were good (our beloved TF's) some were not (Thundercats...bless em, not quite). But in order to sell toys, you had to invest the money. Now, the culture's changed. Afternoon cartoons can't have guns, for one thing, and we get mindless anime-clone drivel in place of our 80's iconic shows. It hasn't been profitable in years to develop a home-grown cartoon for the sole purpose of driving toy sales. Toys just aren't as important (read: lucrative) as they used to be.

But, as voice of hoist pointed out in another thread, the cartoon is the key to the success for the line. None of us would be on this site, complaining about Botcon Seekers or drooling over MP Megatron if the cartoon hadn't sold us on the concept, and the characters.

The upcoming Heroes project is the first example of Hasbro paying for a N.American develpment of a show from the ground-up in a very long time, instead of importing some slag-awful Japanese show and voicing-over. We can hope that there will be more character innovation in that than we've seen in the last several years. And let's face it, the movie might be popcorn fodder, but there's an obvious attempt at innovation there, too.

While toy sales in the traditional 7-14 age market has dwindled, the demand for toys and the Transformers intellectual property in older age brackets, while smaller, has been consistent. Hasbro finally seems to realize that, quite by accident, they've created a universe of characters that people actually care about, and want to get to know better. Investing in the movie, and the Heroes cartoon, is Hasbro's attempt at expanding on that sentiment, by allowing the IP to grow into more areas. Will we get more character innovation and broader story arcs, with brand new characters?
I don't know, but we've got a promising 6 months ahead to find out.



I hope we get a new Ironhide in Heroes. Man, I love that guy.

money/marketing come before creativity.

creativity = true happiness for the fans

but may not equal fast money for the corp.

I agree with you. it's sad but true.

they would rather play it safe and make money fast.
then risk and explore.

wish they would give us options to design our own
TF.

like answer the following questions and then we will
send you your TF.

1. major metal parts? yes/no
2. what class size?
a) mini-con
b) scout
c) deluxe
d) voyager
3. what weapons would you like?
a) blaster
b) sword
c) energy cannon

etc.

I feel your pain too Skywarp-2. And no, your does have basis for the frustration you feel.

Just like Gundam, same theme, different name.......the eternal battle between good and evil.........and the bottom line. The Japanese as well as the American market is just as guilty.

Flint Dille himself answered the question, why'd you kill Optimus Prime?, They were introducing a new set of characters but little did they realize Prime and Megatron became "Icons" of popular culture. Icons can never die, only reformatted to be squeezed of their entire worth.

The Japanese, took chances with Headmasters,Masterforce and even Victory. Too bad that interest waned by the time Battlestars came to be(even in Japan).(Still, in Masterforce, you've got God Ginrai, a Convoy copy in all but name)

As for Beastwars, you were a bit off mark, initially Hasbro envisioned Primal and Megatron to be the same G1 characters, albeit in different time lines and bodies. Eventually though, Mainframe took a life of its own and changed the story flow (for the best IMHO) but the series never really grew on me.

When all is said and done, it will still be up to us the consumer to gobble up cr@p after cr@p of shoddily constructed action figures pasted with the Transformer logo or jump on to a new bandwagon.

Still, G1 and the japanese exclusive Transformers universe still remains for me to be the Golden Age of Transformers releases.

Because the Transformers are actually built on an interesting concept. Not robots in disguise (though that does rock) but character. Real well rounded and developed character. You knew Optimus and Ironhide were old friends not because they said so but because they acted like it. Megatron and Starscream? That's theatre right there. Its Shakespearian. Very few characters throughout history can claim to work outside of the given eras. Hamlet. Romeo & Juliet. But my old theatre lit teacher in college pointed out that the only character from the 20th century that will have the ability to be relevant 400 years from now (ie: comparible to Hamlet) is Spider-Man. But Megatron versus Starscream will still work in 400 years too. Back stabbing will never go out of style. Side missions? Spotlight episodes? That's not a series, that's Grant Morrisons Seven Soldiers of Victory. Randomness that somehow loosly ties together to form a convoluted story.
It may work in comics and fan fiction and the occasional spotlight episode but not as an American TV show. Even the anime Paranoid Agent didn't do well when it was imported and its exactly what your asking for.
Generation 1 was so revolutionary for television in its day (let alone cartoons) for having real characters with real hope and dreams and goals that they don't want to have to top it. Because they know they can't. Its epic and timeless and classic and modern. Tired of Good verses Evil? Tough. It's been the recuring theme of all storytelling since cavemen. It's the theme of history. The theme of humanity. Every single human being on the planet gets it from the youngest child to the oldest man.
And all of that's not taking into account that Hasbro (a toy company) wants to sell toys. If they do a Seaspray spotlight episode (again) do you really think they'd make a Voyager class Seaspray? No, they can't. It wouldn't sell. So they wasted an episode (and a lot of money) on Seaspray because that awesome underwater scuba episode was soooo cool at the writers retreat. But don't worry, next week is Huffer! He'll save our toy line! See, it doesn't work.
I too am tired of the rehashing of crap. Like ER and South Park. But Transformers? It'll probably outlive us. Though I think it could benefit for a few seasons hiatus to get the Minicon/Pokemon stink off it. That won't happen either though.

The rehashing is very true, and dare I say Gundam is even more guilty of rehashing the same storyline/mech designs over, and over, and over since 1978/79 when Gundam made its debut.

Why Op vs Megs you say? Because an epic (Dare I even call something like Transformers EPIC with a copy of The Death of Arthur and a R.E. Howard's Conan The Cimmerian hardcover glaring at me from the other side of the room...?) needs a hero, a noble, brave, strong, perhaps righteous almost mythic figure to believe in. It also needs a vile, scheming, power-driven, genocidal maniac who wants total control.

It is just a formula that has worked since the days of Beowulf.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Indeed.

However, I do agree that it can get tired, but for me, having seen every series since the beginning of it all in the early 1980s, I can say that much of it has been absolute crap, IMHO. This is why I, and many others keep coming back to G1. It was the golden era, and it always will be.

Finally, not to be too negative, but I doubt "TF: Heroes" will be worth seeing/buying.

That just means more MP and G1 reissues, which is fine with me!

BTW, Hasbro does not suck, but owning both Takara and Hasbro products is "educational" one might say--"Takara Superior!!!!1" like some dude's sig here reads. lol

But Classics Jetfire is a GIANT polevault in the right direction! He is all Hasbro and he SRCEAMS quality--in design, and execution.

wOW...I am simply amazed, this has got to be the most intelligent thread I have ever read in like awhile..

Thanks for the responses, while i agree that the Transformers ultimate Theme of Good versus Evil is and always shall be the basis for every exciting story, I just felt that the inclusion of Optimus Prime and the Main cast of Transformers could have been put on hiatus for awhile.

Granted fan made stories do tend to revell in Optimusism, and Megatronian vileness.. and that is also true with the writers of the various cartoon series. And some of those fan made stories do tend to actually surprise you and have characters you can follow very closely...

I would still like to see Hasbro concoct a story and toyline built around a smaller group of Autobots and Decepticons who are apart from the main battles and have to duke it out on some all important mission..something so serious and vital to their cause its worth watching, and not to mention the occasional inclusion of Optimus Prime or an new field commander altogether whose on his own and without the main autobot support.

I mean imagine that, we all know that Hasbro doesn't like to take chances, and yes i agree, using the trademark names Optimus Prime and Megatron are valuable commodities when selling a tv and toy series..But I just felt that once in awhile they should take a break from the Main story of Optimus Versus Megatron and concentrate on another group lead by a young and inexperienced commander against a rash and reckless villain..

outside of the main series, which could reference the big wars, but would be initself a series devoted to those side characters.. Heck they could alternate between those side story guys and the big guns Optimus and Megatron Battles, now that would still keep their marketing machine running, but would add some depth to what they are doing..

And here is one more thought, why can't they go back and add to the G-1 Mythos?? why does it have to be a new series over and over and over again?? I guess its like the artists who work on the Ironman comics for Marvel, everytime I turn around he has a new redesigned armor concept, everytime a new artist takes over.. its like they can't seem to concetrate on what's important..building his rogues gallery, and storyline.. Name one villain besides the Mandarin, off the top of your head that Ironman fights..just one, no cheating..I can't think of it, because they concentrate too much on armor and not his actual enemies, whereas Spidey, i can name like 15 off the bat..

Spidey is successful still because they remain true to the originial , and granted they have started a new series that is well received but nothng like the original, the redesigned Green goblin, is no where as iconic as the original.. so why do we have to have new series over and over again? new redesigned characters, new stories that involve new toys to sell.. I understand, but beside the toy selling thing, its time that Hasbro took their own property seriously...Look at Yamato and Macross..that series is like off the chain..

I do think though that maybe the new series coming out will suck, so in that event, I will be content to collect reissues and Masterpiece lines, BT/Alts and any other series that I fancy that has substance to it..

I understand the movie rehash, but that's different since its the first time transformers has been presented in Live action, and I wouldn't want them to do beast wars or energon, armada, cybertron..in live action.. no its gotta be the greatest series and that is G-1..

skywarp-2 check your PM.

Got it sorry for the delay..

I'm confused. You begin by criticising Hasbro for "rehashing the same concept over and over and over again" such as using Optimus and Megatron but then you say you want them to go back to continuing the G1 storyline or that to be successful like Spiderman they should stay true to their roots.

Wouldn't that be recycling again, though? They would just be revisiting different elements. Also, what's the difference between Japan introducing a new cast in Headmasters or Victory and the US introducing a new universe as in Armada? It's not like Masterforce, Victory or Zone consistently referenced the US G1 show or tied themselves to it that much.

All TF programmes are essentially the same, anyway. Shows like RID and Armada, Energon and Cybertron are essentially the same as G1. They just come off as worse because they're translations and they do suffer from certain constraints because of it. In some respects, Car Robots and Superlink are better shows than G1.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to argue.

Ever since the first Infiltration comic came out, I've been hoping we could see a series like that sometime, where Decepticons are becoming entrenched on numerous planets and a special attack force goes out to meet them. Perhaps...the Wreckers? And Optimus and Megatron could still be there, but in a more distant "report to me" capacity. The real focus could be on the likes of Ultra Magnus, Springer, etc and a group of particularly mean and specialised Decepticons.

Leonardo wrote:I'm confused. You begin by criticising Hasbro for "rehashing the same concept over and over and over again" such as using Optimus and Megatron but then you say you want them to go back to continuing the G1 storyline or that to be successful like Spiderman they should stay true to their roots.

Wouldn't that be recycling again, though? They would just be revisiting different elements. Also, what's the difference between Japan introducing a new cast in Headmasters or Victory and the US introducing a new universe as in Armada? It's not like Masterforce, Victory or Zone consistently referenced the US G1 show or tied themselves to it that much.

All TF programmes are essentially the same, anyway. Shows like RID and Armada, Energon and Cybertron are essentially the same as G1. They just come off as worse because they're translations and they do suffer from certain constraints because of it. In some respects, Car Robots and Superlink are better than shows than G1.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to argue.

Ok, every series since G-1 has had an Optimus Prime, and a Megatron, a Starscream who is trying to snag control of the decepticons, a bumblebee or "hotshot" that has the repore with the kid..

but a side story wehter set in G-1 (I would prefer) because that series has already splintered from the normal formula..Masterforce[/i], Victory or [i]Zone. Its not the series that I want to change, but the characterts and story..whay does it have to be the optimus Prime versus Megatron battles, why can't it be a series that only has Hot Rodimus, or a new character, that faces a villainous swarm of bots (still decepticons just older and forgotten) that are lead by some evil master brain or metroid or something like that and the core group of bots under his command have no backup and are on thier own..

see that would be cool.. that's what I was saying earlier, that a splinter off one existing, or a whole new series devoted to new characters with a different evils would be refreshing from the normal Megatron Vs Optimus Battles...

I mean come on, I'm sure there may have been other battles taking place all around the world besdies Optimus Prime and his group and megatrons..

I guess the difference between the G-1 japanese series and the Cybertron,Armada, Energon series is that those series introduced new villains, new stories, and changed up the whole G-1 concept altogether..No Megatron vs Starscream rehash, No Optimus Prime Matrix rehash...it was different...

Armada, Energon, Cybertron..and Beast wars..all did the exact same thing, Megatron, Optimus, and a dissenting decepticon who vies for control of the group, only at least in Beast Wars they had Dinobot, whose allegience was always a wild card.. that was very interesting to watch..

What I am saying is a new series, new characters, set either as an addition to G-1, BW, Victory, Masterforce, Headmaster, Armada, Cybertron, Energon...what ever

Or set it aside as its own series.. but it wouldn't have Optimus Prime, nor would it have Megatron.. it would be its own thing..with its own querks.. that could be duplicated down the road and rehashed like G-1 has been over and over again..then at least we would have 2 rehashes to choose from instead of one

Something else I don't understand is, are you talking specifically about the cartoons? I imagine that since you've posted this in the toys forum then you are including the toy lines as well, but why would they change the concept of the toy line?

Every TF toy line has had the same concept: robots that transform. They will always have Optimus Prime and Megatron because Hasbro need to hold on to those trademarks. However, with toy lines, it's up to the toy owner to imagine the world in which they live. One doesn't have to go by the tech specs or official backstories printed on the packaging. So what if they have a Leader Class Optimus Prime? He doesn't have to be the leader. Imagination allows one to use the toys in any way one sees fit. One doesn't even have to buy Optimus or Megatron.

My point is, anyone with an ounce of imagination can create their own storylines for the toys. All Hasbro has to do is produce the little blighters. Hasbro doesn't have to alter anything.

Leonardo wrote:Something else I don't understand is, are you talking specifically about the cartoons? I imagine that since you've posted this in the toys forum then you are including the toy lines as well, but why would they change the concept of the toy line?

Every TF toy line has had the same concept: robots that transform. They will always have Optimus Prime and Megatron because Hasbro need to hold on to those trademarks. However, with toy lines, it's up to the toy owner to imagine the world in which they live. One doesn't have to go by the tech specs or official backstories printed on the packaging. So what if they have a Leader Class Optimus Prime? He doesn't have to be the leader. Imagination allows one to use the toys in any way one sees fit. One doesn't even have to buy Optimus or Megatron.

My point is, anyone with an ounce of imagination can create their own storylines for the toys. All Hasbro has to do is produce the little blighters. Hasbro doesn't have to alter anything.

Imagination is great for kids playing with toys, but they have cartoons that direct who those characters will be, only a handfull of kids I have met have even changed the story slightly.. I have an 8 year old son and a 6 year old daughter.. and my sons friends are like, no sir, this is how its done Megtron and Optimus Fight because they are the leaders..

The show itself and concepts are driving that message to the children through the TV cartoons, which translates into how they play..what I'm saying is that creativity and rehash over and over again is like the same old story over and over again..since G-1

Why does it have to be officially Optimus versus Megatron, lets come up with a different crew, different story..Imagination is great, but it can be heavily influenced by marketing and Cartoons and the media...

As far as the Trademarks rights, how long do they have to place those characters on hiatus before those rights get terminated?? i mean how long did the Transformers characters lay dormant before a new series debut with an Optimus Prime and Megaton? Why can't new trademark names and villains be made to break up the norm.. ?? my suggestions were only possibilities from my imagination as to where else the series could go.. they are not examples of what they should do, only options of what hasn't been done yet..

Yes, that would make sense, but that's not really up to Hasbro. They will reuse certain names to keep certain trademarks. That's the business reason. They add the character traits because they know fans will say, "This is Starscream, why isn't he like G1 Starscream? He should be plotting to overthrow Megatron," just as people have done when discussing the movie.

The other thing is, with all the new characters that have come about since RiD, one can just imagine they are in the same universe as G1, that these are other Autobots and Decepticons in other parts of the universe removed from Cybertron and Earth. If one doesn't like the show continuity, one doesn't have to follow it. Who's to say Scrapmetal isn't a G1 Decepticon lost on another planet. Who's to say the G1 universe doesn't have a Giant Planet? The cartoons need to set up new universes every once in a while so that new fans (younger children) don't turn on the television and say, "Wait, I've missed twenty years of background?"

Even if they did do a show with no Optimus or Megatron, and the leads were, say, Rodimus and some other Decepticon (or even a non-TF), then it still wouldn't be a different show in concept. As I said earlier, all TF shows are essentially the same. Whoever replaced Optimus and Megatron would be very similar to Optimus and Megatron anyway. They would most likely be different in name only, so why change the name?

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that even if they had new characters, which every line has had in some way, the show would still be a rehash. Most franchises that demonstrate longevity are rehashed; that's how they last. All of the TF stories are the same story over and over again. Even Masterforce, Victory, etc., were rehashes, as far as I can see.

Leonardo wrote:
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that even if they had new characters, which every line has had in some way, the show would still be a rehash. Most franchises that demonstrate longevity are rehashed; that's how they last. All of the TF stories are the same story over and over again. Even Masterforce, Victory, etc., were rehashes, as far as I can see.

Victory was Star Saber versus Deathzarus, and yeah similar in concpet to G-1, but here's the difference.. new show, new characters.. Unlike Armada, Energon, cybertron...those series were rehashes..instead of bumblebee you had hotshot..Unicron, Starscream vs megatron, Megtron versus Optimus, constructicons.. ect.. ect.. ect.. even teh crash landings were similar.. and granted in Energon Megatrons crashed ship wasn't underwater, but on the moon..its was still like G-1

there are good oints to rehashiing, it brings kids into the series who have never witnessed it before, but once in awhile there should be some splinters that change the norm..just atleast for a little while..

skywarp-2 wrote:

Leonardo wrote:
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that even if they had new characters, which every line has had in some way, the show would still be a rehash. Most franchises that demonstrate longevity are rehashed; that's how they last. All of the TF stories are the same story over and over again. Even Masterforce, Victory, etc., were rehashes, as far as I can see.

Victory was Star Saber versus Deathzarus, and yeah similar in concpet to G-1, but here's the difference.. new show, new characters.. Unlike Armada, Energon, cybertron...those series were rehashes..instead of bumblebee you had hotshot..Unicron, Starscream vs megatron, Megtron versus Optimus, constructicons.. ect.. ect.. ect.. even teh crash landings were similar.. and granted in Energon Megatrons crashed ship wasn't underwater, but on the moon..its was still like G-1

But how was Victory significantly different to the G1 programmes before it? To me, replacing Optimus and Megatron with Star Saber and Deszaras seems to be nothing more than cosmetic. They didn't act terribly different to their predecessors. Even Leozack was akin to Starscream. Toy gimmicks aside, the rest of the show seemed (to me, at least) to be just a rehash of that which had come before it.

Let's do a small rewrite of the Bible and chanage up the characters a bit...

Abraham, will be replaced with a character we'll call 'Frank'.

Moses, will be replaced with a very coridal robot named 'Humphry'

Jesus will be replaced with a guy named 'Oscar'.

and the 12 apostles will be replaced with 12 migrant workers from Mexico.

Now, nothing else will really change. Frank, or Abraham will still be the partriarch or the Israelites. Moses, or Humphry will still part the sea. Oscar will be the salvation of all mankind. And a migrant worker from Mexico named Jorge' will betray Oscar to the Romans for 30 gold pieces.


The answer is: IT DOESN'T MATTER. Not to take away from your idea, but here's the thing: The good guy leader will be heroic, self-sacrificing, and his power will come from his heart and friendships. The evil leader will be greedy, intelligent, and merciless. He will seek to dominate.

Optimus and Megatron are not characters. They are icons; they represent ideas. Dress them up however you want, hell make them a Monkey and a Barney-saur, it will end up the same.

Classic characters in stories are always about ideas. Even Star Wars has the classic story elements of an old man (Obi Wan) guiding a youg dude (Luke) to his great destiny. If someone redid Star Wars and made the old guy a 'hip-hoppity new wave teacher' it wouldn't work.

That's my answer and you're free to go about hurling chairs at me and such.

Counterpunch wrote:Let's do a small rewrite of the Bible and chanage up the characters a bit...

Abraham, will be replaced with a character we'll call 'Frank'.

Moses, will be replaced with a very coridal robot named 'Humphry'

Jesus will be replaced with a guy named 'Oscar'.

and the 12 apostles will be replaced with 12 migrant workers from Mexico.

Now, nothing else will really change. Frank, or Abraham will still be the partriarch or the Israelites. Moses, or Humphry will still part the sea. Oscar will be the salvation of all mankind. And a migrant worker from Mexico named Jorge' will betray Oscar to the Romans for 30 gold pieces.


The answer is: IT DOESN'T MATTER. Not to take away from your idea, but here's the thing: The good guy leader will be heroic, self-sacrificing, and his power will come from his heart and friendships. The evil leader will be greedy, intelligent, and merciless. He will seek to dominate.

Optimus and Megatron are not characters. They are icons; they represent ideas. Dress them up however you want, hell make them a Monkey and a Barney-saur, it will end up the same.

Classic characters in stories are always about ideas. Even Star Wars has the classic story elements of an old man (Obi Wan) guiding a youg dude (Luke) to his great destiny. If someone redid Star Wars and made the old guy a 'hip-hoppity new wave teacher' it wouldn't work.

That's my answer and you're free to go about hurling chairs at me and such.

nah, I can't find my recliner....

I see your point, the core will always be true, but the rehash of Armada, Cybertron, and energon..is way off the scale in terms of copying the G-1 series..down to the Starscream/megatron battles.. and such..

Victory was very different..it had a core like the rest, but it was still very different..

skywarp-2 wrote:Ok, I GOT YOUR ATTENTION, so maybe you all won't be too fond of what i'm about to bring up, but I'm gonna take my licks for this and dish it out quite proper..for all you older Guys out there in Blog land help me understand why?? And for you youngins please exercise some restraint as I tear into the Hasbro Transformers concept..

G-1 will probably never die, and as far as them referencing Megatron and Optimus Prime in various incarnations in the multiple series we have seen.. thats wonderful.. but I will say that there has been only one series which has ventured to go far away from the Optimus prime and Megatron battle..

Oddly enough, that would be G-1 if you count the 1986 movie, and the japanese renditions which continued after the series was cancelled here in the US.. one of my favorite Heroes would be Star Saber, and his nemisis Deathzaurus....No Megatron and Optimus Prime story there..

Those were the most original additions to the Transformers Mythos and I look to that as a great achievement, because here in the US, Hasbro has to continually come up with new and redone versions of Optimus Prime and Megatron.. never leaving that base idea and name behind...

Yet, It seems like they are rehashing the same concept over and over and over again.. G-1 actually kept going..and changed the main characters and most of the supporting cast, yes though, the concept remained Good versus Evil, the lead roles and ways of doing battle changed, the story lines involved more outerspace battles and less earth involvement, it started here in the US with Rodimus Prime and Galvatron.. and trickled into Japan where the series splintered off into different shows..

I think that G-1 was brilliant and didn't stifle the the genre by rehashing the same thing over and over again.. how many series of G-1 esque Rehashing will it take to get us adults to get our kids to buy their toys 20, 30, 100, 1 million?? When will the series stop being rehashed and come to a different conclusion, different villains, different leaders, different motives..it just seems like the various Gundam series.. the series is popular and airs on tv in Japan, but what after that? A new series, new Gundams, new villains.. but same story line big red white blue robot with a main human pilot and his love story and personal issues versus zakus, Doms and variuos cool looking baddies..where is the individuality?


I just wish if they did do a new Transfoemrs series, why can't we change the leader names, why has there got to be a new Optimus and Megatron every series, and why does it have to be set here on earth..? why couldn't a side series be just as popular as the main series.. lets say for instance they did a side series set during the G-1 era, and occasionally you got cameos by the original autobots (peter Cullen Voices G-1 Prime) or decepticons(Frank Welker Voices G-1 Megatron), but the series main goal was to focus on those specific autobots in that series and their various missions.. now that would be a break from the big Optimus VS Megatron battles..

And not to mention cool new transformers whose designs and details on their own would be great as stand alone figures and not compliments to the big guns like Optimus Prime or Megatron..

I just think that with every series, they (Hasbro) hold on to what works,and it will eventually burn the series out.. because its the same thing every what like 3 to 4 years.. new bot designs, each time getting more and more outlandish and brightly rainbow colored.. and no where as appealing as it was in the G-1 line, where you had realistic vehicles and color schemes.. granted Starscream was a little off, but they do have stunt jets like the Blue angels which have color schemes like that..so it wasn't too far off to believe that he could get away with being that color..

To me every time I see an new Optimus Prime emerge and a new series debut with Megatron and starscream at each others throat, it just makes me wonder... why rehash the G-1 dichotomy? why not do a new original Transformers series? new names, new direction.. I mean I know G-1 was the shizznick.. but do we have to keep seeing it copied and rehashed over and over and over again? Why can't it just become a new original verison of the transfomers? New villains, new motives, new heroes.. why can't a leader of the autobots have a consistant fight and battle over leadership instead of starscream and megatron??

I will say this,the executives that oversaw Beast Wars were atleast on track before these new Hasbro executives came in and just kept releasing crap based on G-1 over and over and over again..I guess the big theme at their transformers meetings the last 6 years or so was, "Let's stick with what works, if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Time will tell if the series will stay alive or not.. but rehashing the same idea over and over and over and over again.. redoing the series and reimagining the robots forms helps, but eventually something has to change..

My thoughts anyways...

Okay, first I'll admit I did not read all the responses to this forum, so if I rewrite what has already been said, sorry.

G1 rehashed over and over again kinda sucks. I agree. Whats the point of a "new" Transformers series or line if all we're doing is seeing G1 toons and toys tweaked a bit?

Good VS Evil will always be the foreground of the story, I think we've established that, but as Leo said, there are other stories that, even though they use Prime and Megs, aren't along the same lines. LIke the comic where Prime is forced to be the Autobot Leader. I cant remember his original name, but he wasn't Orion Pax. You know what Im referring too.

Megatron, well, Im about sick of him being redone. Why the hell is Megatron a gun, a tank, a cybertronian car, jet, laser caonnon, super T rex, gorilla, and blah blah blah while Prime remains our everday 18 Wheeler? I always got annoyed by that. If your gonna revamp something, go all the way with it.

I've really been into the comics lately. Mainly cause the story carries away from the G1 toon concept and the art is kick ass. Infiltration, Escalation, HOS. All great reads.

But I tell you what, the Seibertronian community here has so much talent and imagination, that I bet one of our very own could design a completely new concept behind the TF's. Probably you Skywarp.

I still think the why is as much 'money' as anything else. I agree that you can't have Masters of the Universe without a He-man, and you can't have a Die Hard without Bruce Willis, then it's gonna be pretty difficult to have a Transformers without Optimus and Megatron.

But what I really get out of skywarp's post is that there hasn't even been an attempt at innovation in a good long while, and it's starting to get old. And that's an investment decision from Hasbro. If they aren't paying a good team of writers and animators to work towards a new concept, then they are paying a couple of guys to rewrite old 'tried and true' episodes with old characters and new gimmicks. Shoehorn in G1 personalities with Mini-cons and just like magic, you've got a formulaic TF show. Throw in some whiny kids? Cinematic genius.

It's why, despite the fact that Michael Bay & Cartoon Network can ruin anything they touch, at least the movie and Heroes are attempts toward a new concept. For good or bad, there is change on the horizon. If this discussion is still going on January 1st, I think Hasbro has dropped the ball.

Asderiphel wrote:I still think the why is as much 'money' as anything else. I agree that you can't have Masters of the Universe without a He-man, and you can't have a Die Hard without Bruce Willis, then it's gonna be pretty difficult to have a Transformers without Optimus and Megatron.

But what I really get out of skywarp's post is that there hasn't even been an attempt at innovation in a good long while, and it's starting to get old. And that's an investment decision from Hasbro. If they aren't paying a good team of writers and animators to work towards a new concept, then they are paying a couple of guys to rewrite old 'tried and true' episodes with old characters and new gimmicks. Shoehorn in G1 personalities with Mini-cons and just like magic, you've got a formulaic TF show. Throw in some whiny kids? Cinematic genius.

It's why, despite the fact that Michael Bay & Cartoon Network can ruin anything they touch, at least the movie and Heroes are attempts toward a new concept. For good or bad, there is change on the horizon. If this discussion is still going on January 1st, I think Hasbro has dropped the ball.

I think HASBRO dropped the ball a long time ago.

First, you have TAKARA, which makes good quality, awesome looking TF's, then HASBRO brings the over to us, gives us cheap plastic versions of the Die Cast originals, and sells them at the same price, i.e. 20th anniversary Prime.

And thats just the toys. Look at the millions of different incarnations and story lines in Japan, friggin Gundam Transformers, all kinds of fun stuff. Not to mention Japanese voice overs that even give Rodimus a set.

But Hasbro have to factor in other kinds of things. Different toy laws to Japan, different costs, etc.

Also, I don't really see how Transformers can have a cartoon aimed at children and still do anything radical. Even the movie isn't a drastic change in direction. As far as I can see, the freshest aspect is the designs. But everything else is very much Transformers. But the children's cartoons are still going to have to follow strict formulas, etc.