The Energon Pub

by **larenzo177** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:37 pm

Just wondering exactly why everybody hated it so much. I personally liked it (Please don't flame me) and just want to know why everybody else hated it.

by **Torino_Prime** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:24 pm

Because it wasn't Gen One. That's my answer... and the prehistoric Brooklyn accent of the mouse character.

by **larenzo177** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:28 pm

Torino_Prime wrote:Because it wasn't Gen One. That's my answer... and the prehistoric Brooklyn accent of the mouse character.

It techincally is still in G1 continiuity. And beast wars was one of ( In my opinion the best) the best pieces of transformers fiction ever.

News Credits: 7 · by **Chaoslock** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:08 pm

Personally I don't hate it. It has its negative points (Rattraps change, reformatting the awesome transmetal bodies, Rattraps change, quasi-cosmic powers of the maximals, Rattraps change, Silverbolts look, emo bat Nightscream) but it has a lot of redeeming qualities (Tankors storyline is awesome, as well as Megatron and the other Vehicons personalities)

So, in my opinion, it was a good continuation of BW, but not better than its predessedor.

News Credits: 7 · by **Noideaforaname** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:30 pm

Nightscream.

...and it was a drastic change not only from Transformers in general, but also it's direct predecessor Beast Wars.

News Credits: 1 · by **Galvatron X** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:32 pm

Ho boy, here we go again...

I personally love Beast Machines. It's in my DVD player right now (really!).

IMO, it's this in a nutshell. Many hated it because:

1. Optimus became a preachy hippie sensei.
2. The whole "organic cybertron" angle a lot of people hated.
3. Not many characters.
4. Dark storylines (which I liked).

Oh, and I personally hated Nightscream and Botanica. What a couple of friggin' jobbers. Lame-ass characters in my opinion. That's my complaint.

I'm sure people will add more!

by **Botswanky** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:23 pm

Beast Wars is far-removed from the original concept of what the transformers should be e.g. "robots in disguise". The CGI makes my eyes hurt & I can't help but see the Hasbro execs rubbing their slimy hands & thinking "lets see if this crap makes us money with the new generation of stupid kids". And by that I mean their total disregard for what had come before, "Beast Wars" give me break. Now as for Beast Machines...

News Credits: 487 · by **Darth Bombshell** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:42 pm

Energon Is My Drug wrote:2. The whole "organic cybertron" angle a lot of people hated.

I suppose these are the same people who disliked the fact that "Dweller in the Depths" (a G1 episode, I should remind everyone) showed a organic interior on Cybertron.

News Credits: 2 · by **Shadowman** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Optimus Rigas wrote:Beast Wars is far-removed from the original concept of what the transformers should be e.g. "robots in disguise". The CGI makes my eyes hurt & I can't help but see the Hasbro execs rubbing their slimy hands & thinking "lets see if this crap makes us money with the new generation of stupid kids". And by that I mean their total disregard for what had come before, "Beast Wars" give me break. Now as for Beast Machines...

CGI aside, you just described every series of Transformers since the 1986 movie. Also, Transformers wasn't about Robots in Disguise, not a lot of people mention this. They rarely ever used their vehicles modes for hiding. And claiming Hasbro designed it for "the new generation of stupid kids" more or less proves you never actually watched the show.

Torino_Prime wrote:Because it wasn't Gen One. That's my answer... and the prehistoric Brooklyn accent of the mouse character.

Rattrap's accent wasn't a problem in Beast Wars, so I doubt that was a specific problem with Beast Machines.

Onto the main topic: Character changes. By Primus's steel beard, the character changes. I recall reading that the writers for Beast Machines were told to completely ignore any character development in Beast Wars.

Optimus, Megatron, Silverbolt, Cheetor, and words can't even describe how they treated Rattrap. And that's all just off the top of my head.

Botannica was just a bad idea. She's a plant that transforms into...another plant. Uh, hooray? We just finished a series where a character transformed into a gorilla a tank and a jet all in the same body, you need to do a little more, and by "more" I mean "God this was a horrible idea for a character."

I do love the idea of Vehicons. A drone army each controlled by a single sentient commander unit. I'm surprised it hasn't come up in any TF game since then, it's got "video game mooks" written all over it. I liked the commanders, too. They never really developed (Well, Jetstorm and Tankor did, obviously) but they were distinct enough characters that it didn't really matter.

As far as series go, it's not the worst (The jury's still out on that one but I'm certain the answer is in the Unicron Trilogy somewhere) but it's not even moderately good. They try to shove philosophy on the nature of duality down our throats. In itself, it's not a bad idea, and done right it might have even worked. It's that they did it while simultaneously destroying everything Beast Wars had worked so hard to build up.

by **Botswanky** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:05 pm

@ Shadowman,

"CGI aside, you just described every series of Transformers since the 1986 movie. Also, Transformers wasn't about Robots in Disguise, not a lot of people mention this. They rarely ever used their vehicles modes for hiding. And claiming Hasbro designed it for "the new generation of stupid kids" more or less proves you never actually watched the show".

Yeah... well... I could spend my time explaining where I feel your wrong, but what's the point. One thing your right about though, is me never having watched the show, five episodes were all I could handle.

News Credits: 1 · by **adamassc** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:18 pm

the total abscence of Waspinator's awesome immortalness and Inferno's psychosis.

really, I didn't like the aesthetics. The show looked like an oil painting, and the weird techno-organic stylings.

However, I may be a poor person to ask, since I loved RID and I'm a fan of Drift.

News Credits: 2 · by **Shadowman** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:22 pm

Optimus Rigas wrote:One thing your right about though, is me never having watched the show, five episodes were all I could handle.

Complaining about shows you don't watch, then. I guess you never saw Code of Hero, Other Voices I and II, The Agenda I, II and III, (Or the three follow-up episodes, Aftermath and Coming of the Fuzors I and II) Feral Scream I and II or Nemesis I and II? You're judging an entire show based on less than one tenth of it. Just because you didn't like the five episodes you saw doesn't mean it ruined Transformers forever.

by **Botswanky** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:57 pm

@ Shadowman

"Complaining about shows you don't watch"

I'm merely stating my opinion, considering this posts topic I don't see any justification in your comment.

"Just because you didn't like the five episodes you saw doesn't mean it ruined Transformers forever"

Easy with the assumptions, who ever said Transformers were ruined forever. If that were the case I wouldn't be on this Transformers site to begin with.

"I guess you never saw Code of Hero, Other Voices I and II, The Agenda I, II and III, (Or the three follow-up episodes, Aftermath and Coming of the Fuzors I and II) Feral Scream I and II or Nemesis I and II"

I don't care for Beast Wars, or for that matter most of the post G1 offerings. I don't have the time or interest to watch every half-arsed show served-up by entertainment companies whose main concern is taking our money away. Besides these shows are for children, my interest stems from my nostalgia of the G1 series & an interest in toy aesthetic & design. I watch my G1 DVD's to help put me to sleep at night...

by **Pyrostrata** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:18 am

Beast Machines suffers from coming on the heels of the greatest TF animated serial of all time with far inferior writing and a reaching story-arc....It does have merit, however...as I don't hate it, but it is not amongst my favorites. It does have one of the darkest incarnations of Megatron ever, but other than that, it lacks a LOT.

After all, there are worse Transformers animated serials....*sneezes*RiD*sneezes*

by **Torino_Prime** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:59 am

Yeah, I am really ignorant here. I only remember seeing Beast Wars / Machines? peripherally. I didn't like the aesthetic. I have seen a few episodes, but did not know there was a difference between wars/ machines.... I retract my last comment I don't hate it(them), I just don't care for it (them) at all. Meanwhile I am emotionally invested in Gen One.... until the movie ruined the show for me...

by **larenzo177** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:10 am

Ok, I completely understand complaiants about the maximals. (I prefered the vehicons anyway) But to be honest, it was the last piece of transformers fiction that actually CONTINUED the canon story. It seems that all we've had since has been constant reimaginings of G1. I hate that.

by **larenzo177** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:11 am

Ok, I completely understand complaiants about the maximals. (I prefered the vehicons anyway) But to be honest, it was the last piece of transformers fiction that actually CONTINUED the canon story. It seems that all we've had since has been constant reimaginings of G1. I hate that. Ah, sorry for the double post.

News Credits: 217 · by **Diem** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:41 am

Beast Machines, Beast Machines...this one comes up every so often.

There are a lot of things to dislike about the series (not necessarily things I personally dislike) and I'm going to group them roughly together.

1) Character failure

This isn't so much a question of character development going missing, or characters drastically changing (although those are both bad) but the fact that almost all the characters became worse. Optimus lost his sardonic edge, Rattrap became a complaining coward rather than a back-talking pragmatist, Blackarachnia lost anything that distinguished her, Cheetor was the same annoying character but with more power and screen time, Megatron transformed from a charming and dangerous villain to a hollow and dull tyrant and Silverbolt....

2) Darker for darker's sake

Some of the best episodes, or even best series come when the heroes are on the ropes, and Beast Machines certainly had that. But maybe it was a little too draining to watch the heroes of the last series spend all their time running and hiding and discovering the sad fates of their friends. The only light-heartedness was Jetstorm's dialogue. Apart from that, the constant complaining of the heroes, dreariness of the plots and hopelessness of the situation bore down on viewers.

3) Weird gimmicks and weak toyline

We signed on for robots turning into cars and planes. It took some of the best writing in cartoons, and some pretty damn decent toys to make us agree to robots turning into sharks and tigers. And sadly a show of Beast Machine's caliber was not about to sell us on robot-headed motorbikes that turn into motorbike-legged robots, beasts that turn into beasts and a plant that turns into a plant.

4) Everything's grey, Dave

Setting the whole series on Cybertron with no humans or periphery characters is an interesting idea, but there's a reason why every other series ends up on Earth eventually. Constant greys and blues don't appeal. This isn't Tron. By the end of the series you're rooting (ahem) for organicness just to see some green.

5) Creator attitude

It's difficult to pin blame on anyone specific, but setting up a Transformers series that changes the allegiance and personalities of characters that have only recently earned their popularity, removing the ability of the main characters to transform and to alter the fundamental nature of the home planet of the protoganists and by proxy the protagonists themselves, well that's a brave move. Or stupid, I forget which.

by **Torino_Prime** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:41 am

Yeah, I am really ignorant here. I only remember seeing Beast Wars / Machines? peripherally. I didn't like the aesthetic. I have seen a few episodes, but did not know there was a difference between wars/ machines.... I retract my last comment I don't hate it(them), I just don't care for it (them) at all. Meanwhile I am emotionally invested in Gen One.... until the movie ruined the show for me...

News Credits: 2 · by **Shadowman** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:43 am

larenzo177 wrote:Ok, I completely understand complaiants about the maximals. (I prefered the vehicons anyway) But to be honest, it was the last piece of transformers fiction that actually CONTINUED the canon story. It seems that all we've had since has been constant reimaginings of G1. I hate that.

Correction, it was the last cartoon to continue the G1 cartoon's canon. Fun fact: There is no one single canon in Transformers. Even G1 has several different versions, all of which are equally valid. (Cartoon, Marvel Comics, Dreamwave, IDW, etc)

News Credits: 22 · by **Rodimus Prime** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:46 am

Energon Is My Drug wrote:
1. Optimus became a preachy hippie sensei.
2. The whole "organic cybertron" angle a lot of people hated.

Those are 2 big reasons why I disliked it. Another being that I really liked Beast Wars, and compared to that Beast Machines was garbage. They went with the darker storyline, which would have been alright if the organic crap had been cut out. I did like the fact that megatron got to take over the planet, but at the same time he was always in his protective shell, we never saw him truly getting into it with the Maximals. Instead, he had a brainwashed Rhinox (which, unlike most people, I found f**king hilarious) and a few others do his bidding. Overall, the execution of story and development of characters was lame. Definitely a huge letdown.

by **larenzo177** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:44 am

Correction, it was the last cartoon to continue the G1 cartoon's canon. Fun fact: There is no one single canon in Transformers. Even G1 has several different versions, all of which are equally valid. (Cartoon, Marvel Comics, Dreamwave, IDW, etc)

Yes, but before RiD (I disliked) There had never been a cartoon not following from G1's story. And does anybody here honestly views RiD/Armada/Energon/Cybertron canon?

News Credits: 2 · by **Shadowman** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:25 am

larenzo177 wrote:
Correction, it was the last cartoon to continue the G1 cartoon's canon. Fun fact: There is no one single canon in Transformers. Even G1 has several different versions, all of which are equally valid. (Cartoon, Marvel Comics, Dreamwave, IDW, etc)

Yes, but before RiD (I disliked) There had never been a cartoon not following from G1's story. And does anybody here honestly views RiD/Armada/Energon/Cybertron canon?

I actually do consider the Unicron Trilogy to be canon. Not with G1, obviously, but it is still its own canon.

Like I said, there is no one canon in Transformers. "Canon" means "series." It doesn't mean "part of the original series," like you're saying. Armada and Energon, for example, are part of the same canon. Beast Wars and Beast Machines follow G1's canon, War for Cybertron is meant to be canon for Transformers: Prime, etc etc.

by **larenzo177** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:30 am

Shadowman wrote:Like I said, there is no one canon in Transformers. "Canon" means "series." It doesn't mean "part of the original series," like you're saying. Armada and Energon, for example, are part of the same canon. Beast Wars and Beast Machines follow G1's canon, War for Cybertron is meant to be canon for Transformers: Prime, etc etc.

I thought WFC was canon with G1 aswell?

News Credits: 22 · by **Rodimus Prime** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:53 am

Yes, I was also under the impression WFC was linked to G1. Could be wrong though. As for the Unicron trilogy, I always thought there can be a connection made to G1, in the comics. (I prefer the comics to the cartoons for series that had comics) In the end of G2 They were all back on Cybertron, Prime being a truck and Megatron being a big green tank. It doesn't take a lot to fill in the void from there to when Armada begins - with Prime as a truck and Megatron as a big green tank, albeit a bit modified.