The Energon Pub

Saber Prime wrote:You missed a part of my original post yet again.

Really???Lets see.....

Saber Prime wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Transmetal 2 figures don't share many simular qualitys so the repaint could actully pass as a TM2.

Nope didnt miss it at all

Saber Prime wrote:You're counting TM2's as normal TMs isn't helping your point.

Whos doing that?????

What TM2 did I count as a normal TM????

Saber Prime wrote:Yeah, it's true Blackarachnia and Dinobot don't have a 3rd mode. Neither does Cheetor's TM2 and Optimal Optimus has 4 modes but I never said anything about TM2's shareing that same quality as a TM.

So really, there are no Transmetals in the show who don't have that 3rd mode. And the only Transmetals on the show are Optimus Primal, Cheetor, Rattrap, Depthcharge, Megatron, Tarantulas, and Rampage all of which have 3 modes.

And as I've told you many times....who and what makes it to the show is not a defining factor on what characters fit into which categorizes.

You just listed 7 toys out of the almost 20 to be labeled as Transmetals by Hasbro.

You cant dismiss the others as TM's soly because they didnt make it to the cartoon.

Saber Prime wrote:And as far as I can tell that one repaint of Spittor is the only Transmetal figure (Not Transmetal 2, Just Transmetal) that doesn't have 3 modes so all that proves is that his packageing was misslabled or Hasbro got lazy on renameing a repaint.

Then you cant tell a great deal.

Do a little research and you'll see that there were quite a few TF figures releases with the TM label on them that did not have an actual 3rd mode.

Saber Prime wrote:Nope. They were Transmetal 2's not Transmetals. Not a huge difference in name but there is a huge difference in physical trates and origins.

Not so many differences in physical traits since not all of the TM's did not have a 3rd mode.

Saber Prime wrote:Transmetals were created via Transwarp exsplosion and yes they do all have 3 modes.

Nope.

As I said you cant discount those that didnt show up on the toon.

Saber Prime wrote:And wrong again.

Really???? Lets see...

Saber Prime wrote:There are two main characteristics. One has allready been said. The other is a more Robotic beast mode and an organic looking Robot mode.

And again your wrong.

Those traits are not "UNIVERSAL" to all TF's.

TF Claw Jaw and TF Spittor share neather of those traits.

The only trait that is trully universal, and I mean shared by every TM, is that they all have a metallic paint job.

So I'm not wrong buddy.....YOU ARE.

Saber Prime wrote:Of course again non of the TM2s share thoughs same traits.

And by your definition of haveing a Metalic paint job and you counting TMs and TM2s as being the same then I guess by your standards TM2 Cheetor is not a Transmetal because he doesn't have a metalic paint job.

I never counted TM and TM2's as 1 line.

And TM2 Cheetor does have metallic paint on him so your wrong again....unless there's a variant of the figure.

Saber Prime wrote:So how is you want to rag on me for haveing my own definitions for a Transmetal

I'm not raging on you and your welcome to your definitions.

Just dont go saying that they are the true definitions.

Saber Prime wrote: (especially when they're Hasbro's not mine)

There you go again.....those are your definitions not Hasbros.

There are TM figures that dont fit the definitions you posted......I named 2 figures that dis-prove your defintions.

Saber Prime wrote: but you wanna go and insinuate that Cheetor is not a Transmetal 2 just because he's not Matalic?

You must be "Metalic Blind" as well.

TM2 Cheetor has metallic paint apps in both modes.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:You're counting TM2's as normal TMs isn't helping your point.

Whos doing that?????

What TM2 did I count as a normal TM????

When I stated all the show Transmetals had 3 modes you replied with this.

Transmetal 2 Blackarachnia, who was featured on the show, did not have a 3rd mode.

And the Transmetal 2 clone of Dinibot also did not have a 3rd mode.

So you're only defence that not all Transmetals have 3 modes was 2 characters who aren't even normal Transmetals. They're Transmetal 2s which I said in my post before it didn't share the same qualitys as a normal Transmetal.

So yes you did blantantly ignore part of my post and count Transmetals and Transmetal 2s as being the same.

Saber Prime wrote:Yeah, it's true Blackarachnia and Dinobot don't have a 3rd mode. Neither does Cheetor's TM2 and Optimal Optimus has 4 modes but I never said anything about TM2's shareing that same quality as a TM.

So really, there are no Transmetals in the show who don't have that 3rd mode. And the only Transmetals on the show are Optimus Primal, Cheetor, Rattrap, Depthcharge, Megatron, Tarantulas, and Rampage all of which have 3 modes.

And as I've told you many times....who and what makes it to the show is not a defining factor on what characters fit into which categorizes.

You just listed 7 toys out of the almost 20 to be labeled as Transmetals by Hasbro.

You cant dismiss the others as TM's soly because they didnt make it to the cartoon.

I never really Dissmissed any of them. I only stated that all the Transmetal characters on the show share the same traits. As do the toys if you really pay attention.

The unused Transmetal versions of Rhinox, Airrazor, Waspinator, and Terrorsaur. Allso share the same traits as the characters who were actully on the show. As do many other Transmetals who never made it at all. The whole toy thing really isn't helping you here. Even though they really don't matter as non of were Transmetals in the cartoon they wouldn't help your case weather I counted them as real characters or not.

Saber Prime wrote:And as far as I can tell that one repaint of Spittor is the only Transmetal figure (Not Transmetal 2, Just Transmetal) that doesn't have 3 modes so all that proves is that his packageing was misslabled or Hasbro got lazy on renameing a repaint.

Then you cant tell a great deal.

Do a little research and you'll see that there were quite a few TF figures releases with the TM label on them that did not have an actual 3rd mode.

Again, Transmetal 2 figures do not share the same traits as Transmetals. How about you do a little research and learn the difference between TM and TM2.

Saber Prime wrote:There are two main characteristics. One has allready been said. The other is a more Robotic beast mode and an organic looking Robot mode.

And again your wrong.

Those traits are not "UNIVERSAL" to all TF's.

TF Claw Jaw and TF Spittor share neather of those traits.

Both of which are repaints of Regular Beast Warriors. And BTW I just looked through the web site you linked me to earlier. Thoughs two are the ONLY Transmetals that don't have 3 modes unless you want to count the McDonalds toys.

Take a look for yourself. http://www.tfu.info/subgroup/transmetals.htm

Out of 31 Transmetals 24 have 3 modes, 4 only have 2 mode, and one is actully listed under the wrong group entirely as Optumal Optimus was a Transmetal 2. Chances are he's not the only one they got wrong. There's allso a few McDonalds toys missing from that list. Basically that site isn't even accurate.

Saber Prime wrote:Of course again non of the TM2s share thoughs same traits.

And by your definition of haveing a Metalic paint job and you counting TMs and TM2s as being the same then I guess by your standards TM2 Cheetor is not a Transmetal because he doesn't have a metalic paint job.

I never counted TM and TM2's as 1 line.

Then why did you use two TM2 figures as evidence that not all normal TMs have 3 modes? That's counting them as 1 lines buddy. If you're not counting them as one line then you're just provideing evendence that has absolutly nothing to do with the line you're talking about.

And TM2 Cheetor does have metallic paint on him so your wrong again....unless there's a variant of the figure.

I must of missunderstood. I thought you meant they had to have a Metalic paint job meaning the majarity of their body not just an arm/leg. Allthough that's still a preddy lame standard to go by. The Matalic paint tands to peel off after a while so does that mean when the figure's paint peels it's not a Transmetal anymore?

Saber Prime wrote: (especially when they're Hasbro's not mine)

There you go again.....those are your definitions not Hasbros.

There are TM figures that dont fit the definitions you posted......I named 2 figures that dis-prove your defintions.

Two repaints. And that's two out of 30 from the unreliable site you linked me to in the first place.

BTW It is Hasbro's definition. If Ben's site was still running (one of the show's Animators) I could link you to his definition of what a Transmetal is.

Two repainted figures is not Hasbro's defintion of what a Transmetal is. They're cheap ways to resell the same figures over again as "new toys" and nothing more.

Trying nameing a Transmetal without 3 modes that's not a repaint. And again, Blackarachnia and Dinobot don't count as they're not normal Transmetals and do not share the same traits as a normal Transmetal.

Saber Prime wrote:When I stated all the show Transmetals

Actully what you said was that "ALL TRANSMETALS" had a 3rd mode not just the show Transmetals.

Saber Prime wrote:However a True Transmetal figure has 3 modes, Beast, Vehicle (or rather something called a Vehicle but just looks like the beast mode with vehicle parts attached), and Robot. The lack of that 3rd mode really dissqualifies him as being a Transmetal.

Which is incorrect because there are regular TM's with out a 3rd mode.

Saber Prime wrote: had 3 modes you replied with this.

Transmetal 2 Blackarachnia, who was featured on the show, did not have a 3rd mode.

And the Transmetal 2 clone of Dinibot also did not have a 3rd mode.

So you're only defence that not all Transmetals have 3 modes was 2 characters who aren't even normal Transmetals. They're Transmetal 2s which I said in my post before it didn't share the same qualitys as a normal Transmetal.

I didnt ignore it.

The part about the TM2's were ment to be an add on to my statement.[Maybe I should have separated it a bit more]

My real point of my reply, "Which you have ignored" was....

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:A few of the figures released as "Transmetals" by Hasbro did not have a 3rd mode.

And so far you havent offered anything to dispute that.

Saber Prime wrote:I never really Dissmissed any of them. I only stated that all the Transmetal characters on the show share the same traits. As do the toys if you really pay attention.

I did pay attention, and thats not what you said.

As I pointed out you never said "Show Transmetals" or anything like it.

Here is what you said again and there's nothing in your statement that indicates your talking about "Show only" issues

Saber Prime wrote:However a True Transmetal figure has 3 modes, Beast, Vehicle (or rather something called a Vehicle but just looks like the beast mode with vehicle parts attached), and Robot. The lack of that 3rd mode really dissqualifies him as being a Transmetal.

Saber Prime wrote:The unused Transmetal versions of Rhinox, Airrazor, Waspinator, and Terrorsaur. Allso share the same traits as the characters who were actully on the show..

Yes they do.And there are others that dont.

They are all still called Transmetals regardless.

Saber Prime wrote: As do many other Transmetals who never made it at all. The whole toy thing really isn't helping you here..

Actually it is since not all TM's released had a 3rd mode.

Saber Prime wrote:Again, Transmetal 2 figures do not share the same traits as Transmetals. How about you do a little research and learn the difference between TM and TM2.

Boy are you dence.

THERE ARE REGULAR TM'S THAT DONT HAVE A 3rd MODE.

And if you did a little research you would find them.

Saber Prime wrote:Both of which are repaints of Regular Beast Warriors.

Which is irrelevant since they were named Transmetals and they dont have 3rd modes......and they arent the only ones.

Saber Prime wrote: And BTW I just looked through the web site you linked me to earlier. Thoughs two are the ONLY Transmetals that don't have 3 modes unless you want to count the McDonalds toys.

Which I do.

And even if you dont count the McDonalds toys its still a fact that those 2 exists.....and since they dont have a 3rd mode and they are Transmetals your first statement was wrong.

Saber Prime wrote:Take a look for yourself. http://www.tfu.info/subgroup/transmetals.htm

I dont need too.....I did it before I made my first statement.

I always look up the facts about what I'm about to post before I post them.....I do that so that I dont end up saying something that is incorrect.

You should learn from that.

Saber Prime wrote:Out of 31 Transmetals 24 have 3 modes, 4 only have 2 mode,

Which proves my point.

Saber Prime wrote: and one is actully listed under the wrong group entirely as Optumal Optimus was a Transmetal 2.

Not according to how Hasbro labeled the toy.And that site normally goes by how the toys were labeled.

Optimal Optimus was not labeled as a Transmetal 2.



Unlike the Transmetal 2 Megatron


So your wrong again.

Saber Prime wrote: Chances are he's not the only one they got wrong. There's allso a few McDonalds toys missing from that list. Basically that site isn't even accurate.

Thats funny coming from you

At worse the site isint complete but in all the years I havent fount it to be in-accurate.

But there's always the possibility that there is a mistake or 2 there......I just havent stumbled on any yet.

Saber Prime wrote:Then why did you use two TM2 figures as evidence that not all normal TMs have 3 modes?

Explained above somewhere.

Saber Prime wrote:I must of missunderstood. I thought you meant they had to have a Metalic paint job meaning the majarity of their body not just an arm/leg.

No I ment that they had some metallic paint on their alt modes.

If I wasnt clear I'm sorry.

Saber Prime wrote: Allthough that's still a preddy lame standard to go by.

Its not my standard....its Hasbro's.

Having Metallic paint apps on the altmodes is the only "UNIVERSAL TRAIT" that every Transmetal figure shares.

Saber Prime wrote: The Matalic paint tands to peel off after a while so does that mean when the figure's paint peels it's not a Transmetal anymore?

Thats such a illogical question I wont even bother answering it.

Saber Prime wrote: Two repaints.

Which proves my point.

Saber Prime wrote: And that's two out of 30 from the unreliable site you linked me to in the first place.

How is the site unreliable?????

Saber Prime wrote: BTW It is Hasbro's definition.

No thats your definition.

Hasbro's definition includes characters that does not have a 3rd mode.

Saber Prime wrote: If Ben's site was still running (one of the show's Animators) I could link you to his definition of what a Transmetal is.

Bens site used "show definitions" and the simple fact is that Beast Wars is not only a show.

The toyline and the comics are just as important and if they broaden the definitions and categories that the characters fit into then there's nothing you can do about it.

And nothing one of the shows animators has to say can change that fact.

Saber Prime wrote: Two repainted figures is not Hasbro's defintion of what a Transmetal is.

Obviously it is.

They labeled both "Transmetals" so they are IN FACT Transmetals by Hasbros definitions.

Saber Prime wrote: They're cheap ways to resell the same figures over again as "new toys" and nothing more.

That may be the reason why it was done but it does not change the fact of what was done when they included them as Transmetals.

They broadened the definition of whats a Transmetal.

If you dont like it take it up with Hasbro.

Saber Prime wrote: Trying nameing a Transmetal without 3 modes that's not a repaint. And again, Blackarachnia and Dinobot don't count as they're not normal Transmetals and do not share the same traits as a normal Transmetal.

Actually Blackarachnia and Dinobot do count.....The Mc Donalds ones anyway.

And besides it doent matter if they are re-paints or not.They were labeled "Transmetals" and thats what they are.

And nothing you say can change that.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:A few of the figures released as "Transmetals" by Hasbro did not have a 3rd mode.

And so far you havent offered anything to dispute that.

What am I disputeing? You're the one that started this and you haven't shown anything to suport it yet. lol

Saber Prime wrote:I never really Dissmissed any of them. I only stated that all the Transmetal characters on the show share the same traits. As do the toys if you really pay attention.

I did pay attention, and thats not what you said.

As I pointed out you never said "Show Transmetals" or anything like it.

Here is what you said again and there's nothing in your statement that indicates your talking about "Show only" issues

I never claimed I did say anything about show only characters. Look at the bold.

Saber Prime wrote:The unused Transmetal versions of Rhinox, Airrazor, Waspinator, and Terrorsaur. Allso share the same traits as the characters who were actully on the show..

Yes they do.And there are others that dont.

They are all still called Transmetals regardless.

What others? You haven't provided any others except for the two repaints or regular Beast Wars toys.

I've given you a whole list of Transmetals who all share the same traits and the only ones that don't are cheap repaints of normal figures. Try showing some that aren't repaints.

Saber Prime wrote:Again, Transmetal 2 figures do not share the same traits as Transmetals. How about you do a little research and learn the difference between TM and TM2.

Boy are you dence.

THERE ARE REGULAR TM'S THAT DONT HAVE A 3rd MODE.

And if you did a little research you would find them.

Hey hey, I'm not the one who brought the subject up. You want to prove your point you provide the proof.

Saber Prime wrote:Both of which are repaints of Regular Beast Warriors.

Which is irrelevant since they were named Transmetals and they dont have 3rd modes......and they arent the only ones.

Then who are the others? You keep talking about others but I don't see any others.

And it's verry relevant since they WEREN'T names Transmetals when the exact same molds were reliced the first time.

Saber Prime wrote:Take a look for yourself. http://www.tfu.info/subgroup/transmetals.htm

I dont need too.....I did it before I made my first statement.

I always look up the facts about what I'm about to post before I post them.....I do that so that I dont end up saying something that is incorrect.

You should learn from that.

But you linked to a verry unreliable source. So thoughs so called "facts" may not be as accurate as you thought they were.

Saber Prime wrote:Out of 31 Transmetals 24 have 3 modes, 4 only have 2 mode,

Which proves my point.

Nope because 2 are repaints and the other 2 are McDonalds toys which means they're cheap ways to make more money and nothing else.

Saber Prime wrote: and one is actully listed under the wrong group entirely as Optumal Optimus was a Transmetal 2.

Not according to how Hasbro labeled the toy.And that site normally goes by how the toys were labeled.

Optimal Optimus was not labeled as a Transmetal 2.

He was when I bought him. Kinda wish I still had the box now. Anyway it's preddy common for Hasbro to sell toys in the wrong packageing.

Several Beast Machines toys were reliced as part of the RID line. The first wave of Energon Unicrons was sold in Armada packageing. I've bought several Transformers with entirely different coloring on the actual toy than what's shown on their packageing includeing TM Cheetor who had his show colors on the packageing only but the toy was mainly red with a few gold paint aps and a silver chest in robot mode.

So frankly what the packageing says really doesn't even matter.

Alot of characters have completly different bios on their packageing than what they actuly are on the show too. So again just because the packageing says something doesn't make a fact.

Hasbro has been notorious for misslableing, miss packageing, and puting faulse character bios on their toys.

Saber Prime wrote: Allthough that's still a preddy lame standard to go by.

Its not my standard....its Hasbro's.

Having Metallic paint apps on the altmodes is the only "UNIVERSAL TRAIT" that every Transmetal figure shares.

No they don't.

I allmost forgot about this but the Fuzors were technically Transmetals. Not in form but in power. There was even an energy wave in one episode that put everyone who wasn't a Transmetal in stasis and of course it didn't effect Silverbolt or Quickstrike.

And guess what, Silverbolt doesn't have any Matalic paint aps. I'm not sure about Quickstrike, I've never seen one of his toys up close.

Saber Prime wrote: Two repaints.

Which proves my point.

Nope, you can prove you're point when you list someone who isn't a repaint.

Hasbro's definition includes characters that does not have a 3rd mode.

No it doesn't.

Saber Prime wrote: If Ben's site was still running (one of the show's Animators) I could link you to his definition of what a Transmetal is.

Bens site used "show definitions" and the simple fact is that Beast Wars is not only a show.

The toyline and the comics are just as important and if they broaden the definitions and categories that the characters fit into then there's nothing you can do about it.

And nothing one of the shows animators has to say can change that fact.

Wait what? Did you just complain that I'm saying the toy and comic definitions don't matter while at the same time you're argueing that by saying the show definitions don't matter? That seems rather shallow.

So I'm wrong because you don't agree with "show definitions"?

Saber Prime wrote: Two repainted figures is not Hasbro's defintion of what a Transmetal is.

Obviously it is.

They labeled both "Transmetals" so they are IN FACT Transmetals by Hasbros definitions.

Doesn't mean anything.

Saber Prime wrote: Trying nameing a Transmetal without 3 modes that's not a repaint. And again, Blackarachnia and Dinobot don't count as they're not normal Transmetals and do not share the same traits as a normal Transmetal.

Actually Blackarachnia and Dinobot do count.....The Mc Donalds ones anyway.

You didn't say McDonalds you said their TM2 forms so no they don't count.

And I'm not counting McDonalds toys either on the count that the things are too damn small and simple to include a 3rd mode even if they wanted to.

And besides it doent matter if they are re-paints or not.They were labeled "Transmetals" and thats what they are.

And nothing you say can change that.

So by your reasoning what exactly is the Black Unicron? He's been sold both in Armada packageing and Energon. And what's really stupid is he didn't even have the Armada box repainted, it still showed the orange Unicron on the box with the Black Unicron inside.

And I guess Beast Machines Optimus Primal and Megatron are RID figures sence they were sold in RID packageing despite not being from that toy line.

I'm not sure what the deal with Unicron was but I know why the Beast Machines figures came out in the wrong toy line. The show was ended early as was the toy line but they had allready anounced their relice before this happened and had to still ship the toys out so they went into different packageing. That doesn't make them RID figures that just makes them late Beast Machines relices.

i really really love your guys' debates...

Saber Prime wrote:What am I disputeing? You're the one that started this and you haven't shown anything to suport it yet. lol

Riiiiiiight.........?????

And the simple fact that I proved your statement wrong means nothing right???

You said all TM's have a 3rd mode.

I proved that there are a few that dont.

Sorry buddy but there's no way to double talk your way out of that one to save face.

Saber Prime wrote:I never claimed I did say anything about show only characters.

Then what do you call this.......

Saber Prime wrote:I only stated that all the Transmetal characters on the show share the same traits.

And the point is that you never refered to a "Show origin" in your first statement.

You claimed that your definitions were Universal to all TM's....which was wrong.

Saber Prime wrote:What others?

You already know.

Saber Prime wrote: You haven't provided any others except for the two repaints or regular Beast Wars toys.

Why do I have to provide more then the 2 I already did???

They may be repaints but that doesnt change the fact that they were added to the Transmetal sub-group.Nothing you say can change that.

The reasons why Hasbro did it doesnt matter either....its the end result that matters.And the end result is that not all TM's have a 3rd mode.

And lets not forget the Mc Donalds figures.

Saber Prime wrote:I've given you a whole list of Transmetals who all share the same traits and the only ones that don't are cheap repaints of normal figures. Try showing some that aren't repaints.

As stated it dosent matter that their re-paints.

And your arguing that point only seems childish.

Hasbro labeled them Transmetals and you can wine and cry about it all you like but its not going to change anything, nor is it going to help you save face.

Saber Prime wrote:Hey hey, I'm not the one who brought the subject up. You want to prove your point you provide the proof.

I already did....and your claim that their re-paints does not change anything.

Re-paints and Re-molds of figures are done in almost every TF line Hasbro and Takara has released.It doesnt matter if they were once released before in the same line or in a preveious line.

Look at the RID Spychangers.......all but 3 were repaints [and those 3 never made it to the show] but that doesnt change the fact that they are part of the RID line.

Same can be said for RID Scourge [a repaint of G2 Optimus] or Skybyte [a repaint of a TM2 Cybershark] or countless others.

Re-paints they may have been but Hasbro labeled them Transmetals.

Saber Prime wrote:Then who are the others? You keep talking about others but I don't see any others.

As you should know by now I count the Mc Donalds releases....and they released at least 3 TM figures.

Saber Prime wrote:And it's verry relevant since they WEREN'T names Transmetals when the exact same molds were reliced the first time.

Which is completely irrelevant to how they were released the 2nd time.

It doesnt matter how they were released the first time.Just as it doesnt matter to any other re-paint in any other line.Those re-paints are still part of the newer line.

Primal Prime [a re-paint of Optimal Optimus] is still part of the Beast Machines line regardless of being a re-paint.

RID Brave Maximus [a re-paint of G1 Fortress Maximus] is still part of the Car Robots line regardless of being a re-paint.

Saber Prime wrote:But you linked to a verry unreliable source.

And again I ask you....How is that source very unreliable?????

You have yet to provide an example of why you keep saying.Your only claim, so far, was that they categorized Optimal Optimus incorrectly and you were wrong about that.

Seems you make that claim because that site proves you wrong.And I doubt that you'll find many others, here or on other boards, that would agree with you.

TFU is a highly regard toy resource site for collectors.

But since your tring to stick to the idea that maybe the site listed those toys Spittor and Claw Jaw as Transmetals in error.....





As you can see they are labled "TRANSMETALS" by Hasbro.

But I'm sure you'll try to come up with some way to wiggle out of accepting them now as well.

Saber Prime wrote: So thoughs so called "facts" may not be as accurate as you thought they were.

As you can see from the pics above those facts were very accurate.

And do you really think I would have posted those names with out being 150% sure about what I was talking about???

Dude I did the research and confirmed the facts before I posted.I left no margin for error.

As I keep telling you...a little research and you'll avoid making mistakes

Saber Prime wrote:Nope

Yep

Saber Prime wrote: because 2 are repaints

Which were labeled Transmetals by Hasbro.

As I proved and being re-paints does not discount them from being part of a toyline or sub-group.

Thanks for proving my point.

Saber Prime wrote: and the other 2 are McDonalds toys

Mc Donalds toys count since they were also labeled Transmetals.

And as far as I know there were 3 Mc Donalds Transmetals released not 2.

There may be more that I dont know about.

Saber Prime wrote: which means they're cheap ways to make more money and nothing else.

Why Hasbro included them is irrelivent.

What matters is the end result of the action of including them into the line.

Thats something you thought me a while ago......that it doesnt matter what they intended, the only thing that matters is the result that can be seen.

Saber Prime wrote:He was when I bought him.

I highly doubt that.In all the years I'm collecting I havent heard of a varient in the Optimal Optimus packaging.

and this page on varients does not have it listed.
http://www.yellowmonster.com/coolstuff/variants.html

and niether does this page on varients
http://www.geocities.com/futuristgroup/ ... ml#optimal

But I'm sure you'll claim that they are un-reliable too.

My moneys on the fact that your remembering it wrong.

Saber Prime wrote: Kinda wish I still had the box

I still got mine....if you like I can dig it out and take a pic....

Anyway here's a E-bay page with plenty of the box'es with out the TM2 logo....so far I havent seen 1 with the logo they way you claim yours had.
http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_nkwZOp ... omZQQ_mdoZ

Saber Prime wrote: Anyway it's preddy common for Hasbro to sell toys in the wrong packageing.

True but its not common that it wouldnt be mentioned on collector sites.

Unless your claiming to be the first to discover the issue......

Saber Prime wrote: Several Beast Machines toys were reliced as part of the RID line. The first wave of Energon Unicrons was sold in Armada packageing. I've bought several Transformers with entirely different coloring on the actual toy than what's shown on their packageing includeing TM Cheetor who had his show colors on the packageing only but the toy was mainly red with a few gold paint aps and a silver chest in robot mode.

I dont see the point of any of that.

Saber Prime wrote:So frankly what the packageing says really doesn't even matter.

It does if your trying to back up your claim that Optimal Optimus was called a TM2 somewhere.

I dont think he was called that on the show, althou I can be mistaken, and so far I havent found a box that backs up your claim.

Saber Prime wrote:Alot of characters have completly different bios on their packageing than what they actuly are on the show too.

Which is totally irrelevant

Saber Prime wrote: So again just because the packageing says something doesn't make a fact.

If its not an error then it is a fact.

Saber Prime wrote:Hasbro has been notorious for misslableing, miss packageing, and puting faulse character bios on their toys.

And if this was a case of an error I would agree with you.

Unfortunately for your argument its not an error.

Hasbro deliberately re-painted those figures,giving them a metallic paint apps on their altmodes as well as giving them some distinctive markings.

They then deliberately placed them in Transmetals them packaging which makes them Transmetals.

Saber Prime wrote:No they don't.

How not????

Name one Transmetal that does not have a metalic paint app.

Saber Prime wrote:I allmost forgot about this but the Fuzors were technically Transmetals. Not in form but in power. There was even an energy wave in one episode that put everyone who wasn't a Transmetal in stasis and of course it didn't effect Silverbolt or Quickstrike.

Boy are you really trying to win this.....but your still failing.

Fuzords are as different from Regular TM's as a TM2 and trying to include them into this debate shows how desperate you are.

And as you pointed out earlier...were talking about those that are regular TM's not TM sub-groups.

The Fuzords dont have a 3rd mode either.

And......

Saber Prime wrote:And guess what, Silverbolt doesn't have any Matalic paint aps.

Research Research Research......

A little research would keep you from making such foolish mistakes.

Metalic paint apps on both the wings and the legs


So to borrow an idea from "Sledge"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

And just incase you didnt want to see the vid....

YOUR WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

Saber Prime wrote: I'm not sure about Quickstrike, I've never seen one of his toys up close.

He had metalic paint apps too.

As I stated all TMs have metalic paint apps.

Saber Prime wrote:Nope,

Yep

Saber Prime wrote: you can prove you're point when you list someone who isn't a repaint.

You cant discount them because their re-paints buddy.

So your attempt at saving face has failed.

Besides there's also the Mc Donalds figures that also count.

Saber Prime wrote:No it doesn't.

You can keep denying it to yourself but the facts are as clear as a summers day.

Hasbro did deliberately re-paint and re-packedge those toys under the sub-group of Transmetals.They also released the Mc Donalds figures.

And in doing that Hasbro inadvertently declared that a TM need not have a 3rd mode to be a TM.

And no amount of denial from you is going to change that or make your definitions right.

Saber Prime wrote:Wait what? Did you just complain that I'm saying the toy and comic definitions don't matter while at the same time you're argueing that by saying the show definitions don't matter? That seems rather shallow.

Again your twisting my words to try to save face.

I'm not saying that the shows definitions dont count.

What I'm saying is that the shows defintions are not absolute and that your wrong for useing the shows defintions as the absulute answer.

Transformers is not just a cartoon and you saying that TM Spittor was not a true TM because he did not have a 3rd mode was incorrect because you were useing a "SHOW ONLY DEFINITION" with out siteing that it was a "show only definition".

Saber Prime wrote:So I'm wrong because you don't agree with "show definitions"?

No your wrong for casting the shows definitions as the definitive answer.

You did not site the show as a source...you only said...and I quote you.....

Saber Prime wrote:However a True Transmetal figure has 3 modes, Beast, Vehicle (or rather something called a Vehicle but just looks like the beast mode with vehicle parts attached), and Robot. The lack of that 3rd mode really dissqualifies him as being a Transmetal.

As you can see you did not say anything about it being a "show definition".

But you did use the shows definition as the "Blanket Definition".

And you were wrong for doing so.

Saber Prime wrote:Doesn't mean anything.

Denying the facts doesnt help your argument.

Saber Prime wrote:You didn't say McDonalds you said their TM2 forms so no they don't count.

I said there were others....and the Mc Donalds figures fit into the catagory.

Saber Prime wrote:And I'm not counting McDonalds toys either on the count that the things are too damn small and simple to include a 3rd mode even if they wanted to.

You have a habit of not counting things that proves your arguments wrong.

Fact 1: repaints count and there are 2 repaints that were labeled as TMs....and they did not have 3rd modes

Fact 2: the Mc Donalds figures also do not have a 3rd mode

Both those facts proves your original statement wrong.

Deny it if you like but you cant change the facts.

Saber Prime wrote:So by your reasoning what exactly is the Black Unicron?

He's a repaint that was sold in both lines.

He's a variant.

Saber Prime wrote: He's been sold both in Armada packageing and Energon.

As far as I can tell placing him in the Armada box was a mistake, an error.

Unfortanly for your argument thats not the case with the TM's I mentioned.

Saber Prime wrote: And what's really stupid is he didn't even have the Armada box repainted, it still showed the orange Unicron on the box with the Black Unicron inside.

Yeah that was stupid.

Saber Prime wrote:And I guess Beast Machines Optimus Primal and Megatron are RID figures sence they were sold in RID packageing despite not being from that toy line.

Which Optimus Primal and Megatron are you talking about????

If your talking about Air Attack Optimus Primal.....


and Megabolt Megatron......


then yes they are part of the RID toyline regardless of what show the design is from.

They were released as part of the RID toyline [Megabolt was also released under Universe I believe] but neither were released as Beast Machines so they arent part of that toyline.

You can think of them anyway you want but it doesnt change the plain and simple fact of how they were released.

Saber Prime wrote:I'm not sure what the deal with Unicron was but I know why the Beast Machines figures came out in the wrong toy line. The show was ended early as was the toy line but they had allready anounced their relice before this happened and had to still ship the toys out so they went into different packageing. That doesn't make them RID figures that just makes them late Beast Machines relices.

If that was completely accurate we would have gotten a Botanica figure released in the RID line as well since she was also "allready announced" a release of her toy.

Also if that were completely true we would have gotten those Beast Machines figures early on in RID's run not near the end and also they wouldnt have been store exclusives.

The entire Beast Machines line was viewed as a failure and those 2 figures were canceled from being massed produced because it was felt that they wouldnt sell not because the show ended early.

The reason we got Megabolt and Air Attack in RID box's was because fans demanded them after seeing the prototypes and because Hasbro thought they could turn a profit on them.

Hasbro then decided to make them store exclusives for the fans.

And the simple fact that they were released under the RID logo makes them RID figures.....just like the Universe repaints of RID's Optimus and Ultra Magnus.Those repaints belong to the Universe toyline not RID's.

Wether they are re-paints or un-released figures originally planed for other lines doesnt change the simple fact of which lines they end up getting released under.

There are figures that have been released in many different lines,The G1 Combaticon figures & The Go-bot/Spychanger figures, just to name a few.

Does that discount the fact they they were also released as part of the RID line.....No.

Being a repaint changes nothing when it comes to how Hasbro released it.

Name_Violation wrote:i really really love your guys' debates...

Thanks.

Dont be afraid to chime in.

1. Pride is a bitch.

2. Everyone chill.

3. There is a difference between metalic paint and the vac-metalized paint that was common on Transmetal toys.

Counterpunch wrote:1. Pride is a bitch.

Counterpunch wrote:2. Everyone chill.

We're good.Me and Sabe do this all the time with out letting it get personal.

Counterpunch wrote:3. There is a difference between metalic paint and the vac-metalized paint that was common on Transmetal toys.

What would you say is the difference????

In my opinion if it has a metalic look then its metalic.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:1. Pride is a bitch.

Counterpunch wrote:2. Everyone chill.

We're good.Me and Sabe do this all the time with out letting it get personal.

Counterpunch wrote:3. There is a difference between metalic paint and the vac-metalized paint that was common on Transmetal toys.

What would you say is the difference????

In my opinion if it has a metalic look then its metalic.

There is paint which is tinted and has inclusions to create a metalic 'look'.

Vac-metalization is a process where under vacuum, a specific kind of paint is bonded to the plastic. This process uses an amount of electric curent to create that very shiny surface. This is the kind of stuff you find in the current Henkei toys when people talk about 'chrome'.

Vac-metal is also that crap that flakes off and chips after it's been touched over long periods of time, where metalic paint just doesn't do that.



As to the Transmetal thing...I don't know if either perspective you all are giving can be considered 'right', just because:

1. Transmetal was both a tag-line for the toys and a specific plot-point.
2. Cartoon and comic media treat 'Transmetal' differently.

I think you're both correct, just in different ways.

Counterpunch wrote:There is paint which is tinted and has inclusions to create a metalic 'look'.

Vac-metalization is a process where under vacuum, a specific kind of paint is bonded to the plastic. This process uses an amount of electric curent to create that very shiny surface. This is the kind of stuff you find in the current Henkei toys when people talk about 'chrome'.

Vac-metal is also that crap that flakes off and chips after it's been touched over long periods of time, where metalic paint just doesn't do that.

I wasnt aware of the differences on how the paints are made.

But the point I was trying to get across is that there is a "Metalic" look to some of the apps on Transmetal figures.

Not just a "chrome" effect like on some of them but Gold is metalic..

Counterpunch wrote:As to the Transmetal thing...I don't know if either perspective you all are giving can be considered 'right', just because:

1. Transmetal was both a tag-line for the toys and a specific plot-point.
2. Cartoon and comic media treat 'Transmetal' differently.

I think you're both correct, just in different ways.

I know they were treated differently depending on the medium, my objection and debate was to how "Sabe" only sited one mediums [the cartoons] definition of what constitutes a "Transmetal" as the definitive one.

I had typed a reply to the previous post before but due to an error it never got posted.

I use the "log me on automatically each visit" feature and it seems more frequently I'm not being loged on or am some how being loged off while I should still be on.

When I was posting I was loged on, after clicking the post button I was notified that I wasn't loged on and then lost the entire post I had typed. Not wanting to retype it I just ignored it and decided to come back at a later time.

Anyway, Sto, I didn't know there was a difference in how the paints were made but I did know there was a difference in their appearance and no there is not any Metalic paint on Silverbolt.

Allso you mentioned the research thing again. For once your research only proved you wrong and I didn't even need to research that particular toy. I own him. I have Silverbolt. I know what paint he has on him.

The gold paint on Silverbolt is not metalic. You need to do more research now. Take you're picture of the gold on Silverbolt and compair it to the gold on Transmetal Cheetor. Cheetor is actully Metalic, Silverbolt isn't.

I allso have Cheetor as well. He's not show accurate but he does still have some of the original Metalic Gold paint apps.

Cheetor gold is alot smoother, shinyer, and gives the allusion of being metal (hence the term Metalic) despite the fact it's only painted plastic. Silverbolt gold is rough, only slightly shinyer than the rest of the toy, and I don't think it is but it looks like glitter, does not give the allusion of being metal.

You know RID Megatron and Galvatron allso have Metalic paint on them. They're not from the Beast Wars erra, they're not even Beast Wars toys, and they've never been labled as Transmetals but they could be considered Transmetals.

By your definition because they have Metalic paint on them.

But the real reason is they'd be Transmetal 2s because they have WAY more than 3 modes.

At any rate really simple.

On the show Transmetals are split into 3 clearly defined factions.

Normal Transmetals have 3 modes, beast, vehicle, robot, and all share the same origin. (Optimus Primal, Cheetor, Rattrap, Depthcharge, Megatron, Tarantulas, and Rampage)

Transmetal 2s are more powerfull versions of their Tranmetal counterparts who may or may not share the same physical traits or origin. (Optimal Optimus, Cheetor, Blackarachnia, and Dinobot)

and Fuzors who are Transformers with a mixed Beast Mode. (Silverbolt, Quickstrike, and Tigerhawk.)

With the Fuzors, Silverbolt and Quickstrike share the same origins and power levels as a normal Transmetal. Tigerhawk on the other hand has a different origin, different physical traits than other Fuzors, and is more powerfull than a normal fuzor. While Silverbolt and Quickstirke are technically Transmetals in their own right Tigerhawk is a Transmetal 2 in his own right.

Non of the Fuzors were labled to reflect this. Does that mean they're not Transmetals. No it just means they weren't labled properly.

Optimal Optimus, Megatron, and Tigerhawk all have one thing in common. They each have or had 2 sparks at one point or another.

Optimal Optimus was created when Optimus Primal had to carrey the spark of Optimus Prime. He returned Prime's spark but kept the power he gained from it.

Megatron saw what happened when Primal took Primes spark and he stole the original Megatron's spark to intentionally cause the same effect.

Tigerhawk was created by the Vok who fuzed Tigatron and Airrazor's sparks togeather.

Only two of these characters are labled as Transmetal 2s and you really think Optimus wasn't misslabled?

You really think the show definitons are wrong then what is the difference between Transmetals and Transmetal 2s?

And for the last time, it's not MY defintion you're argueing with, it's the shows so if you got a problem with it take it up with the Beast Wars writers and animators.

As far as I can tell the toys have no defining difference from one Transmetal to another so the toy packageing must therefore be wrong as they just seem to randomly lable the packages any which way wheather it's show accurate or not. Toys are not a defineing factor in what qualifys as a Transmetal unless you can get an offical word from a person confirming them, NOT TOY PACKING. Toy packageing is not an offical statement from a human being, it's done on an assembly line by machines.

When the shows creators say something is fact, it's fact. What I said weather I sited the show's creators or not was from them, not me.

When TOY PACKAGEING says something is fact, you better have the word of an actual employee at Hasbro to conferm it was done intentionally and not by mistake. You have not given any evidence that Hasbro's toy packageing wasn't just a factory error and given Hasbro's track record at toy packing errors it's more likely the show definitions are the offical definitions, toy packing is wrong, and YOUR definition of a transmetal is nothing more than just your own opinion and not the offical definition set by Hasbro.

Like I said, if you can provide an offical statement by an employee at Hasbro then and only then can you call that evidence. Nothing you've given so far has been indisputable because the only evidence you've suplyed is toy packageing.

Toy packageing proves about as much as finding a knife in a dead body's hand. Looks like suicide but if someone elses fingerprints are on that knife it's murder. You got the knife, now do you have the fingerprints to back up your assumetion? The fingerprints I got say you're wrong.

Saber Prime wrote:Anyway, Sto, I didn't know there was a difference in how the paints were made but I did know there was a difference in their appearance and no there is not any Metalic paint on Silverbolt.

Allso you mentioned the research thing again. For once your research only proved you wrong

How so???

Saber Prime wrote:and I didn't even need to research that particular toy. I own him. I have Silverbolt. I know what paint he has on him.

The gold paint on Silverbolt is not metalic. You need to do more research now.

Really???Lets see.......

Saber Prime wrote:Take you're picture of the gold on Silverbolt and compair it to the gold on Transmetal Cheetor. Cheetor is actully Metalic, Silverbolt isn't.

I allso have Cheetor as well. He's not show accurate but he does still have some of the original Metalic Gold paint apps.

Cheetor gold is alot smoother, shinyer, and gives the allusion of being metal (hence the term Metalic) despite the fact it's only painted plastic. Silverbolt gold is rough, only slightly shinyer than the rest of the toy, and I don't think it is but it looks like glitter, does not give the allusion of being metal.

Sorry buddy....maybe its your issues with seeing colors in general.....But Gold, by its very nature is a metallic looking color.

Gold,Copper,Silver are all metalic colors.

So while Cheator may have a reflective quality to his gold coloring, the color on Silverbolt is still metalic.

You may need to get your eyes checked again:o)

And besides your not the only one with both figures.

Saber Prime wrote:You know RID Megatron and Galvatron allso have Metalic paint on them. They're not from the Beast Wars erra, they're not even Beast Wars toys, and they've never been labled as Transmetals but they could be considered Transmetals.

By your definition because they have Metalic paint on them.

But the real reason is they'd be Transmetal 2s because they have WAY more than 3 modes.

Why are you trying to cross toylines now???

Saber Prime wrote:At any rate really simple.

On the show Transmetals are split into 3 clearly defined factions.

Normal Transmetals have 3 modes, beast, vehicle, robot, and all share the same origin. (Optimus Primal, Cheetor, Rattrap, Depthcharge, Megatron, Tarantulas, and Rampage)

Transmetal 2s are more powerfull versions of their Tranmetal counterparts who may or may not share the same physical traits or origin. (Optimal Optimus, Cheetor, Blackarachnia, and Dinobot)

and Fuzors who are Transformers with a mixed Beast Mode. (Silverbolt, Quickstrike, and Tigerhawk.)

NOW YOUR RIGHT.

Because you specified that your talking about "THE SHOW ONLY"

Saber Prime wrote:Non of the Fuzors were labled to reflect this. Does that mean they're not Transmetals. No it just means they weren't labled properly.

Are you talking about the box label of being labeled in the story???

Saber Prime wrote:Optimal Optimus, Megatron, and Tigerhawk all have one thing in common. They each have or had 2 sparks at one point or another.

Optimal Optimus was created when Optimus Primal had to carrey the spark of Optimus Prime. He returned Prime's spark but kept the power he gained from it.

Megatron saw what happened when Primal took Primes spark and he stole the original Megatron's spark to intentionally cause the same effect.

I always wondered if the Volcano contributed to his upgrade.

Saber Prime wrote:Tigerhawk was created by the Vok who fuzed Tigatron and Airrazor's sparks togeather.

But their sparks were fuzzed by the creators of the alien devise that lead to the TM2 tech.

Saber Prime wrote:Only two of these characters are labled as Transmetal 2s and you really think Optimus wasn't misslabled?

Where did I say it was or wasnt a "Mis-labeling"????

I didnt give an opinion on that at all...I just pointed out the fact that TFU was not in error in the categorizing of Optimal Optimus as a regular TM.

Dont go putting words in my mouth because you made a mistake.

And I thought you believed that your box of Optimal Optimus said TM2 on it????

Saber Prime wrote:You really think the show definitons are wrong then what is the difference between Transmetals and Transmetal 2s?

Again your putting words in my mouth.

I never said the show definitions were wrong.

I said you were wrong for saying that the shows definitions were the definitive definitions.

Saber Prime wrote:And for the last time, it's not MY defintion you're argueing with, it's the shows so if you got a problem with it take it up with the Beast Wars writers and animators.

No....for the last time ,Since you seem to like useing that line, what I'm arguing with is you for trying to say the shows definitions trump all others.

You claimed that TM Spittor and TM Claw Jaw were not real Transmetals because they did not fit the definition of a Transmetal.

And you then sited the shows definitions of a TM with out claiming it was from the Show.

You used the shows definition as the "All" definition and thats what I'm arguing with.

So if you dont like it...chose your words more carfully.

Saber Prime wrote:As far as I can tell the toys have no defining difference from one Transmetal to another so the toy packageing must therefore be wrong as they just seem to randomly lable the packages any which way wheather it's show accurate or not.

What????

Saber Prime wrote: Toys are not a defineing factor in what qualifys as a Transmetal

It is for the toyline

Saber Prime wrote: unless you can get an offical word from a person confirming them, NOT TOY PACKING. Toy packageing is not an offical statement from a human being, it's done on an assembly line by machines.

Toy packaging is an official word from the company.

And they changes in the packaging had to be inputted to what ever machine printed them and the toys them self had to be repaint to fit the line.

Both were done be a human being at Hasbro.

So you fail there budd

Saber Prime wrote:When the shows creators say something is fact, it's fact.

When Hasbro says or does something its fact, ITS FACT.

And Hasbro said that TM Spittor and TM Claw Jaw are TRANSMETALS.

And thats a FACT.

Saber Prime wrote: What I said weather I sited the show's creators or not was from them, not me.

And you were wrong for trying to imply that it was the only definition.

Saber Prime wrote:When TOY PACKAGEING says something is fact, you better have the word of an actual employee at Hasbro to conferm it was done intentionally and not by mistake.

Thats BS and you know it.

Stop trying to save face and man up to the mistake you made.

It the toys were simply re-boxed you may be right....but these two toys were re-painted to better reflect other Transmetals.

Their outer shells were painted to look metalic.....just like the outer shells of other TMs.

Yes thias may have been done only to make money,and to widen the number of figures in the line,and to get fans to buy figures they may never have bought otherwise.....but it was intentional.

Saber Prime wrote: You have not given any evidence that Hasbro's toy packageing wasn't just a factory error

Yes I have and here it is again.



It says Transmetals mutable times on the box's.

Not only that but they were given their own Sub-group within the Transmetal sub-group.

their "Bio-Combat" characters.

Your only looking childish trying to ignore that fact.

Saber Prime wrote: and given Hasbro's track record at toy packing errors it's more likely the show definitions are the offical definitions,

How does that make it more likely????

Saber Prime wrote: toy packing is wrong,

Not in this case.

Saber Prime wrote: and YOUR definition of a transmetal is nothing more than just your own opinion and not the offical definition set by Hasbro.

No its the definition that has been set forth by the labeling of cretin toys by Hasbro.

That makes it Hasbros definition wether they acknowledge it publicly or not.

At least 5 toys with out a 3rd mode are called Transmetals.....and no matter how much you dont like it you cant deny it.

Saber Prime wrote:Like I said, if you can provide an offical statement by an employee at Hasbro then and only then can you call that evidence.

All I have to provide is official box art...which I did.

You want to disprove it you find proof its a mistake.

There's too much in common between the both of them to both be mistakes.

They both say Transmetal [multible times]
The both say Bio Combat
The both have their altmodes repainted to look metalic
Their both UK exclusives

Sorry but theres to many links to be a mistake.

One mislabeling might have been a mistake.....but not all of that.

Oh and BTW......

Both were packaged with a video with episodes featuring the first episodes with Transmetals.

You dont get more in the way of intentional evidence then that.

Sorry buddy buy you failed.

Saber Prime wrote: Nothing you've given so far has been indisputable because the only evidence you've suplyed is toy packageing.

Then find proof its incorrect....if you can.

Saber Prime wrote:Toy packageing proves about as much as finding a knife in a dead body's hand. Looks like suicide but if someone elses fingerprints are on that knife it's murder. You got the knife, now do you have the fingerprints to back up your assumetion? The fingerprints I got say you're wrong.

The problem with that analogy is that you dont have any fingerprints at all.

Your useing evidence from a murder case in New York and trying to use it to convict a murdercase in L.A.

And by that I mean your tring to say that the Shows definitions trumps all other definitions....and your wrong for doing so.

Both toys packaging proves that the labeling of them as Transmetals was intentional.....no less the 3 [or more] Mc Donalds TM figures proves that Hasbro did not feel they were limited to the shows definitions of what defines a TM.

One way or the other I have 5 cases of TM's with out a 3rd mode to your one show definition.

Transmetal for me is defined where the transformer has been turned inside out, IE, robotic bits on the outside, and organic on the inside. Example, Optimus Prime has a chrome head and chest in Beast Mode, but a very organic chest, hands and head in robot mode. Same can be said for Cheetor, Rattrap, Rhinox, Waspinator, Megatron, Scavanger, Terrorsaur, DepthCharge and Rampage. Also, those bots have a "third" mode. Also, a trait that all true transmetals have is chrome (not metallic, CHROME. There is a significant difference, because it was a line gimmick), which is not on ClawJaw or Spittor, as well as not having completely robotic Beast Modes. Yes, I know the packaging says that they are, but they're not. You're insisting that if Hasbro says it is, then it is so. In that case, here's Hasbro's definition of Transmetal from the packaging.

Bio-genetic engineering has allowed the Transformers to create a perfect cybernetic fusion between savage animals
and mechanical technology. The result: Heroic Maximals VS Evil Predacons in a ferocious fight to the finish!
Only now something cataclysmic has happened! The detonation of an alien planetary device sent a quantum surge across the Beast Wars world, producing mechanical beasts with machine, metal-like body surfaces that convert into 3 ferocious modes: beast, vehicle, and robot. They are called Transmetals and they have changed the Beast Wars forever!

Now, I see there my comment about metal skin (not metallic paints, robotic skin), and 3 modes.
There's my 2 cents.

Cyber-Kun wrote:Transmetal for me is defined where the transformer has been turned inside out, IE, robotic bits on the outside, and organic on the inside. Example, Optimus Prime has a chrome head and chest in Beast Mode, but a very organic chest, hands and head in robot mode. Same can be said for Cheetor, Rattrap, Rhinox, Waspinator, Megatron, Scavanger, Terrorsaur, DepthCharge and Rampage. Also, those bots have a "third" mode. Also, a trait that all true transmetals have is chrome (not metallic, CHROME. There is a significant difference, because it was a line gimmick), which is not on ClawJaw or Spittor, as well as not having completely robotic Beast Modes. Yes, I know the packaging says that they are, but they're not. You're insisting that if Hasbro says it is, then it is so. In that case, here's Hasbro's definition of Transmetal from the packaging.

Bio-genetic engineering has allowed the Transformers to create a perfect cybernetic fusion between savage animals
and mechanical technology. The result: Heroic Maximals VS Evil Predacons in a ferocious fight to the finish!
Only now something cataclysmic has happened! The detonation of an alien planetary device sent a quantum surge across the Beast Wars world, producing mechanical beasts with machine, metal-like body surfaces that convert into 3 ferocious modes: beast, vehicle, and robot. They are called Transmetals and they have changed the Beast Wars forever!

Now, I see there my comment about metal skin (not metallic paints, robotic skin), and 3 modes.
There's my 2 cents.

I agree that Spittor and Clawjaw did not have the "Chrome" paint scheme that most [if not all] of the line carried.

But neither did all of the Fuzores, which was why the paint scheme argument was brought up in this debate.

As per the description on the packing you posted......Actions speak louder then words.

Regardless of what Hasbro said in any episode or box it was change by their continuing to add to the line.

They expanded the boards of what a TM was when they included those figures.

So yes Hasbro calling those figures "Transmetals" does in fact make them so.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Cyber-Kun wrote:Transmetal for me is defined where the transformer has been turned inside out, IE, robotic bits on the outside, and organic on the inside. Example, Optimus Prime has a chrome head and chest in Beast Mode, but a very organic chest, hands and head in robot mode. Same can be said for Cheetor, Rattrap, Rhinox, Waspinator, Megatron, Scavanger, Terrorsaur, DepthCharge and Rampage. Also, those bots have a "third" mode. Also, a trait that all true transmetals have is chrome (not metallic, CHROME. There is a significant difference, because it was a line gimmick), which is not on ClawJaw or Spittor, as well as not having completely robotic Beast Modes. Yes, I know the packaging says that they are, but they're not. You're insisting that if Hasbro says it is, then it is so. In that case, here's Hasbro's definition of Transmetal from the packaging.

Bio-genetic engineering has allowed the Transformers to create a perfect cybernetic fusion between savage animals
and mechanical technology. The result: Heroic Maximals VS Evil Predacons in a ferocious fight to the finish!
Only now something cataclysmic has happened! The detonation of an alien planetary device sent a quantum surge across the Beast Wars world, producing mechanical beasts with machine, metal-like body surfaces that convert into 3 ferocious modes: beast, vehicle, and robot. They are called Transmetals and they have changed the Beast Wars forever!

Now, I see there my comment about metal skin (not metallic paints, robotic skin), and 3 modes.
There's my 2 cents.

I agree that Spittor and Clawjaw did not have the "Chrome" paint scheme that most [if not all] of the line carried.

But neither did all of the Fuzores, which was why the paint scheme argument was brought up in this debate.

As per the description on the packing you posted......Actions speak louder then words.

Regardless of what Hasbro said in any episode or box it was change by their continuing to add to the line.

They expanded the boards of what a TM was when they included those figures.

So yes Hasbro calling those figures "Transmetals" does in fact make them so.

I didn't know that fuzors were considered transmetals, except only by show logic, which you were against using solely. Even though the 2 repaints were added last minute under Transmetal packaging, I still don't think they are considering Hasbro clearly defined what a transmetal was, at least to me.
But, I've said my points, and I have nothing new to add, so I'll settle with agreeing to disagree (It's my Canadian nature)

Cyber-Kun wrote:I didn't know that fuzors were considered transmetals, except only by show logic, which you were against using solely.

Did I just say someing that indicated otherwise????

I'm not saying that I consider the Fuzors TM's.....what I said was that the paint scheme argument came about because they were brought up, and not by me I might add.

Cyber-Kun wrote: Even though the 2 repaints were added last minute under Transmetal packaging, I still don't think they are considering Hasbro clearly defined what a transmetal was, at least to me.

Well it was hardly "last minute" and as I said before Hasbros actions speak louder then there words.

The repinted parts were done to resemple the area that would be chrome if they were newly designed figures.

Abd besides all that.....this wouldnt be the first time Hasbro has broaden the definition of a toy category.

For most of the G1 line a "Combiner" was a TF that was capable of combining with others to form a "Super-Robot.

Then came the "MicroMaster Combiners" that only combined to form vehicles.

What Hasbro did then was alter the definition of what a combiner was.......just as they altered the definitions of a TM when they included the repaints.

Cyber-Kun wrote: But, I've said my points, and I have nothing new to add, so I'll settle with agreeing to disagree (It's my Canadian nature)

Thats cool

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Take you're picture of the gold on Silverbolt and compair it to the gold on Transmetal Cheetor. Cheetor is actully Metalic, Silverbolt isn't.

I allso have Cheetor as well. He's not show accurate but he does still have some of the original Metalic Gold paint apps.

Cheetor gold is alot smoother, shinyer, and gives the allusion of being metal (hence the term Metalic) despite the fact it's only painted plastic. Silverbolt gold is rough, only slightly shinyer than the rest of the toy, and I don't think it is but it looks like glitter, does not give the allusion of being metal.

Sorry buddy....maybe its your issues with seeing colors in general.....But Gold, by its very nature is a metallic looking color.

Gold,Copper,Silver are all metalic colors.

So while Cheator may have a reflective quality to his gold coloring, the color on Silverbolt is still metalic.

You may need to get your eyes checked again:o)

And besides your not the only one with both figures.

Nope. You're confusing color with metal. Gold as you're useing is not a color, it's a type of metal named for it's color just like an orange (fruit) is named for it's color. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Gold Basically, you're getting the Noun confused with the Adjective.

Gold (Noun) yes is metalic.

Gold (Adjective) does not have to be metalic.

Being gold doesn't automatically make it metal just like being orange doesn't automatically make something a fruit.

And fact is ANY color can be made to look metalic even black. Shadow Borg had black metalic paint on him. (Beetle Borgs toy)

Anything with that shiny, smooth, metal looking surface is metalic. Something that looks like gold glitter isn't metalic.

Saber Prime wrote:Optimal Optimus, Megatron, and Tigerhawk all have one thing in common. They each have or had 2 sparks at one point or another.

Optimal Optimus was created when Optimus Primal had to carrey the spark of Optimus Prime. He returned Prime's spark but kept the power he gained from it.

Megatron saw what happened when Primal took Primes spark and he stole the original Megatron's spark to intentionally cause the same effect.

I always wondered if the Volcano contributed to his upgrade.

Kinda random but I allways wondered the same thing. I think maybe if he didn't fall in the lava he might of still mutated but in a different way. Either that or the animators just did it because it looked cool.

George Lucas once said about 10% of the effects he put in Star Wars were there just because he thought they looked cool.

Saber Prime wrote:Tigerhawk was created by the Vok who fuzed Tigatron and Airrazor's sparks togeather.

But their sparks were fuzzed by the creators of the alien devise that lead to the TM2 tech.

True but Megatron turning into a Dragon had nothing to do with the Vok or their devices yet he's still marked as a Transmetal 2. Optimal Optimus and Megatron are basically the same so one of them has to be labled wrong and I'd bet my life that it's Optimal Optimus.

Saber Prime wrote:Only two of these characters are labled as Transmetal 2s and you really think Optimus wasn't misslabled?

Where did I say it was or wasnt a "Mis-labeling"????

A couple pages back you said and I'm paraphraiseing because I'm tired and too lazy to find the exact quote, that "Optimal Optimus was INTENTINALLY packaged as a Transmetal." And you made that claim with absolutly no proof. If you were talking about a different toy you didn't make it verry clear and you still didn't provide any proof that it was intentional so it really wouldn't make a difference what you were talking about.

I didnt give an opinion on that at all...I just pointed out the fact that TFU was not in error in the categorizing of Optimal Optimus as a regular TM.

Dont go putting words in my mouth because you made a mistake.

And I thought you believed that your box of Optimal Optimus said TM2 on it????

I do belive that but that doesn't change the fact that there are obviously others out there that were labled differently. And I didn't put words in your mouth. As I exsplained abouve you did make the claim that Hasbro intentionally packaged him that way.

Saber Prime wrote:You really think the show definitons are wrong then what is the difference between Transmetals and Transmetal 2s?

Again your putting words in my mouth.

I never said the show definitions were wrong.

I said you were wrong for saying that the shows definitions were the definitive definitions.

1. I'm not putting words in your mouth.

2. What you just said doesn't make any sence.

If you're saying I'm wrong for useing the show definitions then you are saying the show definitions are wrong. The two are the same, one can't be wrong without the other being wrong as well. So again you just said an oximoron.

If you never said the show definitions were wrong then you never said I was wrong for useing them which you did so that statement is faulse.

If you said I was wrong for useing the show definitions then you're claiming the show definitions are wrong in which case go complain to the show's creators and leave me out of it.

Saber Prime wrote:And for the last time, it's not MY defintion you're argueing with, it's the shows so if you got a problem with it take it up with the Beast Wars writers and animators.

No....for the last time ,Since you seem to like useing that line, what I'm arguing with is you for trying to say the shows definitions trump all others.

You claimed that TM Spittor and TM Claw Jaw were not real Transmetals because they did not fit the definition of a Transmetal.

And you then sited the shows definitions of a TM with out claiming it was from the Show.

You used the shows definition as the "All" definition and thats what I'm arguing with.

So if you dont like it...chose your words more carfully.

What difference does it make weather I sited the show or not. I've asked you this like 3 times now and you've still never answered it.

The show definitions do trump all. They're the only definitions at all. That was the entire point in asking you what in toy defitions was the difference between Transmetal and Transmetal 2. You didn't have an answer so abviously there's no such thing as a toy definition.

I've asked you seval times for offical word from Hasbro to back up your claims and all you've given is toy boxes which as I've pointed out Hasbro's had a history of misslableing things so toy boxes really don't qualify as an offical statement. Only statement I'm going to accept as being the offical word of Hasbro is a statement from an actual person, not a box. And an actual person says that I'm right and you're wrong.

Even if you had an offical word from a person going agenst the show definitions it still wouldn't matter because if that were the case neither of us would be right or wrong. You'd then just be trying to argue that my opinion was wrong.

Another reason why it shouldn't matter weather or not I sited the show. How long have we been speaking online? You should know by now I only go by the show, don't act like you just met me.

Saber Prime wrote: unless you can get an offical word from a person confirming them, NOT TOY PACKING. Toy packageing is not an offical statement from a human being, it's done on an assembly line by machines.

Toy packaging is an official word from the company.

And they changes in the packaging had to be inputted to what ever machine printed them and the toys them self had to be repaint to fit the line.

Both were done be a human being at Hasbro.

So you fail there budd

Nope. Toys are painted by machines too and it's verry easy for a computer error to occure especially at Hasbro as evidence by the whole Unicron fiasco, and the Armada Wheeljack in Movie Towline packageing, and several others.

Toy packing doesn't mean jack freaking squat unless there's something else backing it up. I would seriously doubt that they'd make the same error on a toy and on the show so if the show confirmed what the toy said I'd belive it but it doesn't so I'm more inclinded to belive the show is true than a stupid box.

Energon Downshift and Cliffjumper. They fliped names a few times on the show. I tend to use their toy names more sence the show can't make up their mind which one's which. Downshift though I prefer to just call him Wheeljack because of his likeness to G1 Wheeljack.

Transmetal toy line can't make up it's damn mind what the hell a Transmetal is, the show actully has a definition and damn it, I'm going to use it.

Saber Prime wrote: What I said weather I sited the show's creators or not was from them, not me.

And you were wrong for trying to imply that it was the only definition.

It IS the only definition. The toys don't have any definition of what a Transmetal is. The whole metalic paint thing was YOUR definition not the toys. The toys have no diffence between Transmetal and Transmetal 2, the show does.

Saber Prime wrote:When TOY PACKAGEING says something is fact, you better have the word of an actual employee at Hasbro to conferm it was done intentionally and not by mistake.

Thats BS and you know it.

Stop trying to save face and man up to the mistake you made.

It the toys were simply re-boxed you may be right....but these two toys were re-painted to better reflect other Transmetals.

Their outer shells were painted to look metalic.....just like the outer shells of other TMs.

Yes thias may have been done only to make money,and to widen the number of figures in the line,and to get fans to buy figures they may never have bought otherwise.....but it was intentional.

It's not BS, it's something you've told me to do in several past arguments. If you're going to make a bold claim like that, back it up.

You've got no proof that anything you're saying right now is true. All you're doing is makeing assumetions based on your own damn opinion. Frainkly, so am I but there's a difference.

I've actully got word from a PERSON backing up my claims and you know that. You don't have a single shred of evidence that can't be disputed.

I'm not trying to save face, you are. You get me some shred of undisputable evidence to back up your claims then fine. Till then you have nothing.

Saber Prime wrote: You have not given any evidence that Hasbro's toy packageing wasn't just a factory error

Yes I have and here it is again.



It says Transmetals mutable times on the box's.

Not only that but they were given their own Sub-group within the Transmetal sub-group.

their "Bio-Combat" characters.

Your only looking childish trying to ignore that fact.

You're still only giving me toy boxes as evidence. How many different ways do I have to exsplain this? Toy boxes don't mean a gawd damn thing. Person, word from a PERSON an actual, liveing, breathing, speaking, employee, NOT A FREAKING BOX!

Ben Yee is a person and according to him, you and your box are WRONG!

Word of an Hasbro Emplyee vs. a Box

Box get's steped on, torn, and thrown in the trash. Person wins without breaking a sweat.

Your box is in the trash, you're WRONG! Have a nice day.

Saber Prime wrote: and given Hasbro's track record at toy packing errors it's more likely the show definitions are the offical definitions,

How does that make it more likely????

Do you honesty have to ask?

Lets put it this way. If you were shown two different web sites with completly different information on an upcomming movie. They're both fan sites you're familiar with but one you know has proven to be more reliable than the other. Which one are going to belive is true?

Hasbro's toy packageing has never proven to be verry relible on it's facts, the show has, useually. But it depends on the character and the series. Like I've allready said, Energon Downshift and Cliffjumper were never verry consistant with their names on the show so I tend to go by the toy names.

Beast Wars as a series was allways verry clear in their story. The toys were not. So the boxes don't mean ****.

Saber Prime wrote: toy packing is wrong,

Not in this case.

Yes in this case and in most cases. Actully come to think of it, the name mix ups in the Unicron Triligy are probly the only cases where I'd go by the toy packing over the show sence the show was never consistant in their names.

Saber Prime wrote: and YOUR definition of a transmetal is nothing more than just your own opinion and not the offical definition set by Hasbro.

No its the definition that has been set forth by the labeling of cretin toys by Hasbro.

That makes it Hasbros definition wether they acknowledge it publicly or not.

At least 5 toys with out a 3rd mode are called Transmetals.....and no matter how much you dont like it you cant deny it.

Oh my gawd... I never thought I'd see the day when YOU of all people would try to pass off your opinions and assumetions as an offical statement by Hasbro but there it is.

Saber Prime wrote:Like I said, if you can provide an offical statement by an employee at Hasbro then and only then can you call that evidence.

All I have to provide is official box art...which I did.

Nope, offical box art doesn't prove a damn thing. It's as much proof as a weapon with no finger prints.

All you have is a knife and your own assumptions, I'm the one who dusted for fingerprints and found the evidence. You still think it's suicide because the knife was found in the victum's hand. That knife was planted there, someone elses fingerprints are on that knife not the victums. (I'm haveing to much fun with this annaligy.)

You want to disprove it you find proof its a mistake.

I don't need to disprove anything, you still haven't proved anything yet.

There's too much in common between the both of them to both be mistakes.

They both say Transmetal [multible times]
The both say Bio Combat
The both have their altmodes repainted to look metalic
Their both UK exclusives

Sorry but theres to many links to be a mistake.

One mislabeling might have been a mistake.....but not all of that.

Oh and BTW......

Both were packaged with a video with episodes featuring the first episodes with Transmetals.

You dont get more in the way of intentional evidence then that.

Sorry buddy buy you failed.

Nope, you left out a few things.

Both don't in any way shape or form fit what the show's creators say is an Transmetal. Both are cheap repaints of toys that were never made to be Transmetals. Both are non show characters. And neither one is backed by anything other than it's own box.

I'll say it again. I don't care what the gawd damn box says, if an actual person working at Hasbro says different then the box is wrong. And hey, according to Ben Yee, the box is indeed WRONG.

Stop pulling your damn box out of the trash and just let the garbage truck get it.

Saber Prime wrote:Toy packageing proves about as much as finding a knife in a dead body's hand. Looks like suicide but if someone elses fingerprints are on that knife it's murder. You got the knife, now do you have the fingerprints to back up your assumetion? The fingerprints I got say you're wrong.

The problem with that analogy is that you dont have any fingerprints at all.

Ben Yee was the fingerprints in that analigy. Your stupid box was the knife.

Your useing evidence from a murder case in New York and trying to use it to convict a murdercase in L.A.

And by that I mean your tring to say that the Shows definitions trumps all other definitions....and your wrong for doing so.

Your analigy much like the statement following it don't make any gawd damn sence what so ever.

Both toys packaging proves that the labeling of them as Transmetals was intentional.....no less the 3 [or more] Mc Donalds TM figures proves that Hasbro did not feel they were limited to the shows definitions of what defines a TM.

One way or the other I have 5 cases of TM's with out a 3rd mode to your one show definition.

I have the word of a Hasbro employee that proves I'm right. You have a bunch on boxes that really need to go out to a dumpster.

Better yet you have a fake piece of evidence that was planted at the crime scene and wasn't even used to commit the crime. I have the criminal in custody allready who confessed to commiting the murder.

I've solved the crime allready. You can keep examining that knife if you want. I'm done with this case.

-=edit=-

I just read Cyber-Kun's post and he even confimered I'm right. That little quote in his post was from a toy package and was the same definition set by the shows creators.

I'm right, you're wrong. I've got the offical word of a show creator and the toy box descriptions! You have... two repaints and they're even more so now, clearly misslabled boxes.

I was questioning weather or not they were before but it's obvious now, they were.

And now for your viewing pleasure...

Saber Prime wrote:Nope. You're confusing color with metal. Gold as you're useing is not a color, it's a type of metal named for it's color just like an orange (fruit) is named for it's color. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Gold Basically, you're getting the Noun confused with the Adjective.

Fine....it seems you want to get technical about what quilfies as a "Color".

Probbly because your so desperate to win some thing in this argument.
So Black and white are shades not colors right???

Is that the argument your useing here????

Saber Prime wrote:
Gold (Noun) yes is metalic.

Gold (Adjective) does not have to be metalic.

Being gold doesn't automatically make it metal just like being orange doesn't automatically make something a fruit.

Gold may not have to be metalic in every case.....but it just so happens to be in this case.

The Gold paint on Silverbolt was metalic looking.

So whats the point here???

Saber Prime wrote:And fact is ANY color can be made to look metalic even black.

Thats very true.

Saber Prime wrote:Anything with that shiny, smooth, metal looking surface is metalic. Something that looks like gold glitter isn't metalic.

No your mixing "Chrome" with metalic.

Silver,Gold and Copper paints are almost always metaic paints.

And the Gold paint on Silverbolt was indeed metalic.

Saber Prime wrote:Kinda random but I allways wondered the same thing. I think maybe if he didn't fall in the lava he might of still mutated but in a different way. Either that or the animators just did it because it looked cool.

George Lucas once said about 10% of the effects he put in Star Wars were there just because he thought they looked cool.

Yes it was random....but it fit.

Saber Prime wrote:True but Megatron turning into a Dragon had nothing to do with the Vok or their devices yet he's still marked as a Transmetal 2.

I didnt bring it up to argue just to make a point....but we dont no the extent of the Volcanos involvement in the mutation.

Primal begane to mutate almost directly after placing the spark of G1 Prime in his body.....on the other hand BWs Megatron did not mutate for a few minutes [story time] later when he was throw into the lava pit.

No less Megatron even said something that would leave one to believe that that it was the pit that may have made the mutation possible.

Saber Prime wrote: Optimal Optimus and Megatron are basically the same so one of them has to be labled wrong and I'd bet my life that it's Optimal Optimus.

I wont deny that its possible....but I dont see what that has to do woth the debate.

But I do fint the idea that he was mislabeled unlikely.......if it is so then he was mislabeled across the board, on the catalog check list,the box label, the instruction sheets and the bio card on the back.

I find it a little bit hard to swallow that they made that many mistakes......and I dont think he was called a TM2 on the show.

Saber Prime wrote:A couple pages back you said and I'm paraphraiseing because I'm tired and too lazy to find the exact quote, that "Optimal Optimus was INTENTINALLY packaged as a Transmetal." And you made that claim with absolutly no proof. If you were talking about a different toy you didn't make it verry clear and you still didn't provide any proof that it was intentional so it really wouldn't make a difference what you were talking about.

Well your paraphrasing incorrectly because I said no such thing.

And its a good thing I'm not as lazy as you are and I can back up my claim.What I said was the site I linked you, "TFU" , catagorized the toy as a non TM2 because it was not labeled as a TM2.

I said nothing about wether it was a mistake on Hasbros part or not.

Here it is all again.......

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote: and one is actully listed under the wrong group entirely as Optumal Optimus was a Transmetal 2.

Not according to how Hasbro labeled the toy.And that site normally goes by how the toys were labeled.

Optimal Optimus was not labeled as a Transmetal 2.



Unlike the Transmetal 2 Megatron

And here's the next post that was in reply to the same topic...

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:He was when I bought him.

I highly doubt that.In all the years I'm collecting I havent heard of a varient in the Optimal Optimus packaging.

and this page on varients does not have it listed.
http://www.yellowmonster.com/coolstuff/variants.html

and niether does this page on varients
http://www.geocities.com/futuristgroup/ ... ml#optimal

But I'm sure you'll claim that they are un-reliable too.

My moneys on the fact that your remembering it wrong.

Saber Prime wrote: Kinda wish I still had the box

I still got mine....if you like I can dig it out and take a pic....

Anyway here's a E-bay page with plenty of the box'es with out the TM2 logo....so far I havent seen 1 with the logo they way you claim yours had.
http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_nkwZOp ... omZQQ_mdoZ

So just to say again and again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

YOUR WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

I never said anything about wether Hasbro INTENTINALLY packaged him as a as a Transmetal.

So stop trying to put words in my mouth.

Saber Prime wrote:I do belive that but that doesn't change the fact that there are obviously others out there that were labled differently.

aHHHH

Saber Prime wrote: And I didn't put words in your mouth. As I exsplained abouve you did make the claim that Hasbro intentionally packaged him that way.

You are putting words in my mouth because as I just proved I said no such thing.

Saber Prime wrote:1. I'm not putting words in your mouth.

Yes you have

Saber Prime wrote:2. What you just said doesn't make any sence.

Sure it does.

Saber Prime wrote:If you're saying I'm wrong for useing the show definitions then you are saying the show definitions are wrong.

No...what I'm saying is that the shows definitions and origins are right for the shows universe.

But they are not right for every TF universe.

And I'm saying that you were wrong for trying to pass the shows definitions and origins as the "ONLY" definitions and origins.

You full well know that Transformers,just like other fictions that are told in different mediums, would have different definitions and origins depending on the comic,toon or toylines story.

You were wrong for casting the toons definitions and origins as the defining one..

Saber Prime wrote: The two are the same, one can't be wrong without the other being wrong as well. So again you just said an oximoron.

See above

Saber Prime wrote:If you never said the show definitions were wrong then you never said I was wrong for useing them which you did so that statement is faulse.

You were wrong for saying the shows definitions disgulify the repaints from being TM's.

You claimed the shows definitions and origins were the only defintions and origins....and you didnt even site the shows as a source.

Thats why you were wrong.

Saber Prime wrote:If you said I was wrong for useing the show definitions then you're claiming the show definitions are wrong in which case go complain to the show's creators and leave me out of it.

Again see above.

Saber Prime wrote:What difference does it make weather I sited the show or not. I've asked you this like 3 times now and you've still never answered it.

The difference is TF is not just a show....so if your going to use a "Show defintion" you should site it.

Saber Prime wrote:The show definitions do trump all.

Thats total BS and you know it.

Do the G1 Dinobot cartoon origin super seed that of the the G1 marvel comics, or that of the toyline, or that of Dreamwaves or IDW's comics.

No they do not.

Your not going to fine anyone to agree with you there at all.

Face it you lost the argument and now your wineing.

Transformers is just not a cartoon.....the toyline and comics are just as imporant and not a one can trump the others.

Saber Prime wrote: They're the only definitions at all.

Again BS.

Saber Prime wrote: That was the entire point in asking you what in toy defitions was the difference between Transmetal and Transmetal 2. You didn't have an answer so abviously there's no such thing as a toy definition.

Excuse me????

Hen did you ask me for the toy universe definitions for the difference between Transmetal and Transmetal 2?????

Saber Prime wrote:I've asked you seval times for offical word from Hasbro to back up your claims and all you've given is toy boxes which as I've pointed out Hasbro's had a history of misslableing things so toy boxes really don't qualify as an offical statement. Only statement I'm going to accept as being the offical word of Hasbro is a statement from an actual person, not a box. And an actual person says that I'm right and you're wrong.

I provided official word in the form of the packaging.

As I pointed out....

They both say Transmetal [multible times]
The both say Bio Combat
The both have their altmodes repainted to look metalic
Their both UK exclusives

And Both were packaged with a video with episodes featuring the first episodes with Transmetals.

No way that wasnt intentional.

Saber Prime wrote:Even if you had an offical word from a person going agenst the show definitions it still wouldn't matter because if that were the case neither of us would be right or wrong. You'd then just be trying to argue that my opinion was wrong.

Your still be wrong for casting the toon origin as the only quilfying factor.

Saber Prime wrote:Another reason why it shouldn't matter weather or not I sited the show. How long have we been speaking online? You should know by now I only go by the show, don't act like you just met me.

And that alone proves my point.

It doesnt matter wether I know you and should know what your talking about....its about all the others that read these post.

And when you make a post, claiming something is a fact, you should be right about it.

And the simple fact is you werent completely right.

You used a show definition and claimed it was the only definition.

And the simple fact is that you were wrong.

Saber Prime wrote:Nope. Toys are painted by machines too and it's verry easy for a computer error to occure especially at Hasbro as evidence by the whole Unicron fiasco, and the Armada Wheeljack in Movie Towline packageing, and several others.

The paint schemes have to be thought out and planed by people.

And the toys paint scheme do fit into where other TMs would have metal parts.

So it was no mistake....you fail.

Saber Prime wrote:Toy packing doesn't mean jack freaking squat unless there's something else backing it up.

And as I pointed out there is.

The paint scheme and the fact that they were packed with a video with the first episodes that had TM.s

Thats proof it was deliberate.

Saber Prime wrote: I would seriously doubt that they'd make the same error on a toy and on the show so if the show confirmed what the toy said I'd belive it but it doesn't so I'm more inclinded to belive the show is true than a stupid box.

Ofcourse.....because you can never admit to a mistake of any kind.

Saber Prime wrote:Transmetal toy line can't make up it's damn mind what the hell a Transmetal is,

That may very well be.....but it doesnt change the facts.

Saber Prime wrote: the show actully has a definition and damn it, I'm going to use it.

Go right ahead and use it......if you like.

But the shows definitions do not trump the toylines.

Saber Prime wrote:It IS the only definition.

Its not.....and no amount of crying is going to change that for you.

Hasbro sited a definition on the box's......and then broadened the definition by including the repaints.

Its no different then what they did with the combiners in G1.

Saber Prime wrote: The toys don't have any definition of what a Transmetal is.

Yes they do.

Saber Prime wrote: The whole metalic paint thing was YOUR definition not the toys.

That wasnt a defintion.

I said that the metalic paint was a trait that they all shared.....and they do.

Saber Prime wrote:It's not BS, it's something you've told me to do in several past arguments. If you're going to make a bold claim like that, back it up.

I did back it up.

Saber Prime wrote:You've got no proof that anything you're saying right now is true.

Keep denying it to your self if you must.

Saber Prime wrote: All you're doing is makeing assumetions based on your own damn opinion.

No I'm siteing factual evidence.....the box and what it repersents.

Saber Prime wrote: Frainkly, so am I but there's a difference.

I've actully got word from a PERSON backing up my claims and you know that. You don't have a single shred of evidence that can't be disputed.

Again prove its a mistake....if you can.

Saber Prime wrote:I'm not trying to save face, you are.

Sorry buddy but I proved my point.

I said there were TMs with out a 3rd mode...and I proved it.

I said there were more then 1... and I proved it

I said it was on the box....and I proved it

And the fact that they came with transmetal episodes proves it was intentional.

Saber Prime wrote: You get me some shred of undisputable evidence to back up your claims then fine. Till then you have nothing.

I got more then you buddy....face it.

All you got is the show and your opinion.

And we already know that the shows dont ever trump the toyline or the comics.

Saber Prime wrote:You're still only giving me toy boxes as evidence. How many different ways do I have to exsplain this? Toy boxes don't mean a gawd damn thing. Person, word from a PERSON an actual, liveing, breathing, speaking, employee, NOT A FREAKING BOX!

The box,metalic paint job,and the video are a repersention of an intentional decision to make them TMS.

And you know it.

So stop trying to save face.

Saber Prime wrote:Ben Yee is a person and according to him, you and your box are WRONG!

Again show only.....the show trumps nothing.

Saber Prime wrote:
Word of an Hasbro Emplyee vs. a Box

Box get's steped on, torn, and thrown in the trash. Person wins without breaking a sweat.

Your box is in the trash, you're WRONG! Have a nice day.

To beging with Ben was not a Hasbro employe.....he worked as a writter for the show.

And is only credited as writter for 1 episode if i'm right.

On the other hand the deliberate packaging on the box is evidence that those in charge at Hasbro made the decision to include them as TM's.

The toys were deliberately given new paint jobs to better fit into the TM line....the box's were likewise also re-printed with the logo of Transmetals on them.

And to cross market them they were packed with the first episodes to feature Transmetals.

No way that was all a mistake.

Those kind of things cant happen with out someone at Hasbro making the call.

So your wrong....."AGAIN".

Saber Prime wrote:Do you honesty have to ask?

Yep

Saber Prime wrote:Lets put it this way. If you were shown two different web sites with completly different information on an upcomming movie. They're both fan sites you're familiar with but one you know has proven to be more reliable than the other. Which one are going to belive is true?

I dont see how that line of questioning relates to this debate.

Saber Prime wrote:Hasbro's toy packageing has never proven to be verry relible on it's facts, the show has, useually.

Thats not completly accurate either.

Beast Wars may have done a better job then most other TF shows when it came to continuity but in general the cartoons make as many mistakes as the box's.

Saber Prime wrote:Beast Wars as a series was allways verry clear in their story. The toys were not. So the boxes don't mean ****.

And thats where your wrong.

Even if the BW cartoon was perfect it doesnt change the very nature of what Transformers is.

They are always different universes....the comic,the toyline and the toons.

One universes origins and definitions to not supper seed themselves upon the others.

So no matter how clear the toons origin may have been.....it does not change the comic origin or the toylines origins.

Saber Prime wrote:Yes in this case and in most cases.

Definitely not in this case buddy.

Saber Prime wrote: Actully come to think of it, the name mix ups in the Unicron Triligy are probly the only cases where I'd go by the toy packing over the show sence the show was never consistant in their names.

Dude thats like the "Rumble is blue and frenzy is Red argument".

Saber Prime wrote:Oh my gawd... I never thought I'd see the day when YOU of all people would try to pass off your opinions and assumetions as an offical statement by Hasbro but there it is.

Its not my opinion that Hasbro labled at least 5 figures with out a 3rd mode as TMs.

Its not my opinion that they re-painted 2 figures to better fit the TM line and packed them with videos of the first TM episodes.

Thats all fact.

Saber Prime wrote:Nope, offical box art doesn't prove a damn thing. It's as much proof as a weapon with no finger prints.

Its proof that it was deliberate.

Its as much as a confession.

Saber Prime wrote:All you have is a knife and your own assumptions, I'm the one who dusted for fingerprints and found the evidence. You still think it's suicide because the knife was found in the victum's hand. That knife was planted there, someone elses fingerprints are on that knife not the victums. (I'm haveing to much fun with this annaligy.)

You still havent proved anything.

You keep saying you have provided evidence but where is it????

You site other mistakes made but that doesnt prove this is a mistake.

Sorry buddy but theres to much going for them to be a simple mistake.

Saber Prime wrote:I don't need to disprove anything, you still haven't proved anything yet.

Again deny it if you feel it makes you feel like a better man.

Theres no way its a mistake.

Saber Prime wrote:Nope,

Yep

Saber Prime wrote: you left out a few things.

Really???Lets see.......

Saber Prime wrote:Both don't in any way shape or form fit what the show's creators say is an Transmetal.

Which is irrelevant since the shows defontions do not trump the toylines defintons or that of a comic.

Saber Prime wrote: Both are cheap repaints of toys that were never made to be Transmetals.

Also irrelevant since the paint scheme was made to approximate the TM line and the simple fact that as the owners....Hasbro has the right to name and change anything about the TF lines as it see's fit.

Saber Prime wrote: Both are non show characters.

Also irrelivent sine every Tf toyline has its share of non show characters.

Saber Prime wrote: And neither one is backed by anything other than it's own box.

Dude there backed by a number of seprate things...

The paint job
The box
The Sub-sub group they were placed in
The cross marketing of the video

Any 1 alone may be a mistake......
2 may be a coincidence [spelling]
3 suggests a pattern
but 4 is evidence of intent.

And again look at the 4th in question.

The first transmetal episodes were packed with these Transmetal repaints.

No way that was a mistake.

A similar thing was done with Beast Machines....KB toys were giving a video of the first episodes to run with the sub-title....."Battle for the sparks" with the toys that shared the same sub-title like this one.....



The only difference with KB's offer was that you needed to buy more then one from the line or spend a certin amount on the line.

Or are you going to tell me that was a mitake as well....or that cross marketing is a mistake made by computers or machines too????

Saber Prime wrote:I'll say it again. I don't care what the gawd damn box says, if an actual person working at Hasbro says different then the box is wrong. And hey, according to Ben Yee, the box is indeed WRONG.

When did Ben say anything about the box???

More to the point did Ben ever say that the cartoon had more standing then the other medeia that TF partakes in????

Even more to the point when has anyone at Hasbro said that the cartoon trumps all????

To my knowledge the answer to all of those questions is "NEVER".

To begin with Ben did not work for Hasbro....he was a story writter for the show thats only credited for 1 episode......but even if he worked on all of them it wouldnt matter.

Transformers has never been just one set universe with one set of origins and definitions.

The cartoon,comic and toyline origins have always had differences since the days of G1.

Look at the G1 Dinibots for one.....toy and show definitions and origins were completely different.

Neither trumped the other.

Both stand alone on their own merits.

So stop trying to use the show and Ben Yee as a "Trump Card" buddy because your failing to prove your point.

Saber Prime wrote:Stop pulling your damn box out of the trash and just let the garbage truck get it.

See above.

Saber Prime wrote:Ben Yee was the fingerprints in that analigy. Your stupid box was the knife.

Again he doesnt either.

Ben Yeee did not work for Hasbro nor does his work for the show trump the different origins of the toyline or comics.

Saber Prime wrote:Your analigy much like the statement following it don't make any gawd damn sence what so ever.

Ha

Saber Prime wrote:I have the word of a Hasbro employee that proves I'm right.

Actually you dont.....Ben was not a Hasbro employe.

Saber Prime wrote: You have a bunch on boxes that really need to go out to a dumpster.

Which is evidence that someone deliberately made the choise to make them TM's.

Saber Prime wrote:Better yet you have a fake piece of evidence that was planted at the crime scene and wasn't even used to commit the crime. I have the criminal in custody allready who confessed to commiting the murder.

I've solved the crime allready. You can keep examining that knife if you want. I'm done with this case.

The only case you solved is that your incapable of admiting your wrong.

Your argument amounts to nothing more then you saying.....I believe the show more" an nothing else.

You accuse the box's of being in error but you provided no evidence to even suggest that they were.

Sorry but as a detective you fail.

Saber Prime wrote:-=edit=-

I just read Cyber-Kun's post and he even confimered I'm right. That little quote in his post was from a toy package and was the same definition set by the shows creators.

I'm right, you're wrong. I've got the offical word of a show creator and the toy box descriptions! You have... two repaints and they're even more so now, clearly misslabled boxes.

I was questioning weather or not they were before but it's obvious now, they were.

How does that even come close to proving they were mislabeled??????

As I said from the begining Hasbro broadened the defintion when they included the re-paints.

Please show me one shread of evidence that shows they were mislabled.

I have already proven by the box's,the sub category,the repaint scheme and the cross marketing that they arent mislabled.

Again show me how they are mislabled or how the Mc Donals toys fit the description????

So until you can show me how its a mistake.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

And you are wrong for saying that the shows defintions and origins trupm all others.

As I said too Cyber-Kun this sitruation is no different then when Hasbro broadened the defintion of a combiner.

First a combiner was a TF that had the ability to combiner with others to form a Super-robot.

Then Hasbro made the Micromaster combiners that only combined to form a vehicle.

Hasbro may have defined a Transmetal as having a 3rd mode at one time....but they later expanded the definition to at least 5 figures that did not have a 3rd mode.

And theres no way it was a mistake.....some of the 5 mentioned were newly made figures.

Explain it.

And BTW this alone..........

Saber Prime wrote:I was questioning weather or not they were before

Is great.....you questioned your own convictions even if it was for a second...

You cam out of your little world and learned something.

I'm happy for you

Cheap repaints they may be.....but they were intentional cheap repaints.

And may I add that they were awesome repaints?
And the creators of the show have just little say when it comes to the definition of something, Unicron was originally just a monster planet TF that ate planets, now he's made into a universe travelling Demi God who's the brother of Primus, why? cos Hasbro said so by labelling official products relating to what was originally a other universe incarnation of him as being the same as the G1 Unicron.
Hasbro could give Movie Sam a techy repaint and label him as a Transmetal which would make him a transmetal as it's what Hasbro wants it to be.

Why is Ben Yee keep on being cited as a Hasbro Employee? As far as I knew, he was brought on for a story consultant for the Agenda episodes (which is the end of season 2, I'm sure he had nothing to do with the concept, creation or definition of a transmetal), and did some work for IDW on the Sourcebook (which should never, ever be used as a source, the mistakes in there are ludicrous). He's never been a "Hasbro employee"

Back to the original thread, I've never been a fan of the upgrades that Prime got in the Energon and Cybertron cartoons. I rather like his look in Armada, the others just got too Super Sentai on me and over the top (really, what's with Cybetron ver., a truck with wings???)

Cyber-Kun wrote: (really, what's with Cybetron ver., a truck with wings???)

Are you so blind that you cannot see that it's an "armoured heavy-assault winged fire-truck armed with cannons?" seriously in what kind of world do you live that you've never seen one of those? I see them everyday.
But seriously Cybertron Prime's altmode is pretty useless.

Dead Metal wrote:And may I add that they were awesome repaints?

You think so???I really didnt like Clawjaws repain at all.

Dead Metal wrote:And the creators of the show have just little say when it comes to the definition of something,

Thank you.....so what do you think....do a shows definitions or origins "Trump" that of a toyline or comic??????

Dead Metal wrote: Unicron was originally just a monster planet TF that ate planets, now he's made into a universe travelling Demi God who's the brother of Primus, why? cos Hasbro said so by labelling official products relating to what was originally a other universe incarnation of him as being the same as the G1 Unicron.
Hasbro could give Movie Sam a techy repaint and label him as a Transmetal which would make him a transmetal as it's what Hasbro wants it to be.

Again hank you very much.

Cyber-Kun wrote:Why is Ben Yee keep on being cited as a Hasbro Employee?

Because "Sabe" thinks it will help his argument and help him save face

Cyber-Kun wrote: As far as I knew, he was brought on for a story consultant for the Agenda episodes (which is the end of season 2, I'm sure he had nothing to do with the concept, creation or definition of a transmetal), and did some work for IDW on the Sourcebook (which should never, ever be used as a source, the mistakes in there are ludicrous). He's never been a "Hasbro employee"

Thank you.

Now let me ask you a question....I know you said its in your nature to agree when possible, and I kbelieve your personal prefrance is the origin provide by the cartoon....

But in your opinion do you believe that any tf cartoon origin trumps the origin of the comic or the toyline????

Cyber-Kun wrote:Back to the original thread, I've never been a fan of the upgrades that Prime got in the Energon and Cybertron cartoons. I rather like his look in Armada, the others just got too Super Sentai on me and over the top (really, what's with Cybetron ver., a truck with wings???)

I kind of agree with you....altho I did like the over all look he had in "Cybertron" I think we could have done with out the wings.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:And may I add that they were awesome repaints?

You think so???I really didnt like Clawjaws repain at all.

Dead Metal wrote:And the creators of the show have just little say when it comes to the definition of something,

Thank you.....so what do you think....do a shows definitions or origins "Trump" that of a toyline or comic??????

Dead Metal wrote: Unicron was originally just a monster planet TF that ate planets, now he's made into a universe travelling Demi God who's the brother of Primus, why? cos Hasbro said so by labelling official products relating to what was originally a other universe incarnation of him as being the same as the G1 Unicron.
Hasbro could give Movie Sam a techy repaint and label him as a Transmetal which would make him a transmetal as it's what Hasbro wants it to be.

Again hank you very much.

Don't mention it.
I wish the definition from a show would override comics or toys, but in the end it's Hasbro's franchise and they can do what they want with it. The way it is now with all the retcons and all the original 80's cartoon is no longer something to base TF knowledge on.
And on the matter of Ben Yee
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ben_Yee

And yes I enjoy that repaint a lot but that's probably cos I love that mold.

Dead Metal wrote:Don't mention it.

I already did

Dead Metal wrote:I wish the definition from a show would override comics or toys,

I do to....sometimes anyway.

It would make things far eazer to understand and follow sometimes.

But again I thank you for agreeing that.....

Toons definitions do not override that of the toyline or that of the comics

Dead Metal wrote: but in the end it's Hasbro's franchise and they can do what they want with it. The way it is now with all the retcons and all the original 80's cartoon is no longer something to base TF knowledge on.

Actlly my point....Hasbro has, a number of times, altered or brodened their defintions on a few different cases.

I sited the combiners issues and you sited Unicron.

In the long run what they did with the Transmetals was no different.

Dead Metal wrote:And on the matter of Ben Yee
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ben_Yee

Your the man bud

Dead Metal wrote:And yes I enjoy that repaint a lot but that's probably cos I love that mold.

I just didnt like the green and bluish color they used on the repaints.

I got one more question for you....do you think that the labeling of those repaints was a mistake or a deliberate ploy to make money????

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I got one more question for you....do you think that the labeling of those repaints was a mistake or a deliberate ploy to make money????

No mistake, mistakes are like spelling errors and such like, but the boxes sported the Transmetals logo, and the transmetals explanation in 3 different languages on the boxes I had plus the shelves advertised them as Transmetals Beast Wars toys. I did that formatting on purpose as that's about the same way as they were advertised in the store I bought them from.
Strange those unimportant things from 10 years ago I remember yet I can't remember the damn Spanish grammar I need at school .