The Energon Pub

1 answer is all that is needed. Ratchet joints. Problem solved, explanation debunked. Not to mention I already explained that they don't have to use Voyager sized figures.

TheMuffin wrote:1 answer is all that is needed. Ratchet joints. Problem solved, explanation debunked. Not to mention I already explained that they don't have to use Voyager sized figures.

Except that doesn't answer anything. I personally can't see how one type of joint is supposed to handle movie accuracy, three different modes, articulation, etc, etc.

Not to mention it doesn't matter what size the figures are.

"Problem" not solved, explanation certainly not debunked.

Considering all the months of engineering that went into the figure, I doubt simply offering "Ratchet joints" would solve anything.

Kuribohfett wrote:

TheMuffin wrote:1 answer is all that is needed. Ratchet joints. Problem solved, explanation debunked. Not to mention I already explained that they don't have to use Voyager sized figures.

Except that doesn't answer anything. I personally can't see how one type of joint is supposed to handle movie accuracy, three different modes, articulation, etc, etc.

Not to mention it doesn't matter what size the figures are.

"Problem" not solved, explanation certainly not debunked.

Considering all the months of engineering that went into the figure, I doubt simply offering "Ratchet joints" would solve anything.

Let me catch my breath a sec and do a Zen thing to chill from all the online fights I started lately (and there were a lot of them)... o.k. I think i'm chill and have a solution...

What we are missing is the fact that Hasbro is dealing with the cluster**** that is ROTF Devastator as envisioned by his Bayness and therefore all previous standard Gestalt rules are now down the crapper. Movie fig. designs in general will mean that (under normal Gestalt rules) a combiner will flop and beat the sh** out of itself inside of a day. especially in the hands of a child. Ratcheting joints are superior in holding but will spoil the aesthetic of the toy.(see brick Predaking or E series Superion). Hunchback Devs. will either drag knuckles or face-plant if ratcheted not to mention the majority of Movie designs don't allow enough places for sturdy combining ratchet joints. (The only decent voyager figure made to support such joints was, well...Ratchet. The others are too oddly built, even Voyager Prime)
Also, Hasbro wants this thing epic in scale so they can excusably rape our wallets...I mean, keep in step with the movie likeness. Catch 22...can't support the weight w/out the ratchets and the ratchets will kill the look ergo...we'll rape their wallets TWICE!
Takara's solution solved everyones problem from design team to marketing to fan base. Make it smaller and sturdier so the kids can actually play with it, leave all the other bigger designs just as they are, add an unnecessary component to make the rumor-mongers happy and squeeze another 6 bucks out of people, and we'll sell 3 DEVASTATORS.

So Bays physics-rule-bending monstrosity was the problem and Takara's mini-solution allows them to rape our wallets 3 times instead of two but at least now it feels like they were kind enough to buy us a drink first.

Does any of that sound even remotely plausible 'cause that burned out the last of my zen and rationality. I've built all manner of stuff over the years from intricate models to home construction to rebuilding engines. I've dealt with TF's, Robotech, Voltron, Gundam figures, you name it. I looked at this problem from every possible angle and Bay just flat out threw Hasbro a freaking curve ball and there really was no better way to deal with it. 20 years ago we would have had a Fort Max sized Gestalt brick but todays kids won't go for that. That's why TF's are kicking Power Rangers ass! MegaZords cant bend! Conversely, big TF Movie toys will make crappy combiners because they bend TOO MUCH.

Good post.

TheMuffin wrote:1 answer is all that is needed. Ratchet joints. Problem solved, explanation debunked. Not to mention I already explained that they don't have to use Voyager sized figures.

I think that they could do it, they could pull off a voyager combiner. I know that getting them all to hold together would be a problem with the weight involved.

I have a solution though. They could have large, very sturdy ratcheted joints that are additional pieces that lock onto and between the voyager components. That way they wouldnt have to engineer the joints into the each figure only some way to clip them onto the outside of the alt mode.

I am talking about heavy duty plastic joints that you push over a large area of the voyager figure with spring loaded clips that lock on and require the push of a button to release, strong and sturdy.

Im sure if they took that approach the fans wouldn't mind having to use extra pieces and the kids would have something strong enough to play with.

T-Macksimus, well I don't agree with some of the negative points of your post (I happen to love the new Devastator more then the original. Then again, I could be misreading it your post.) it was well thought out and nicely reasoned.

Forget it.

Kuribohfett wrote:

KenjaminLinus wrote:I think this is absolutely awesome, considering the size. There is absolutely NO excuse why hasbro couldn't design a full sized rotf devastator. NO excuse. No offense to anyone defending hasbro, but you're just wrong

Um, there are plenty of "Excuses." Accuracy, making each toy stand well on there own, making sure all abilities are represented that are in the movie. Also, making Devastator available to people who may not care for individual Constructicon designs. Also this is a way to have both the Constructicons and Devastator in collections. I know I'll be buying all of them. But the truth doesn't matter, everyone's made up their minds already. I don't know why everyone thinks Hasbro can do magic when a combiner has never been made on this kind of scale. All the G1 combiners are pretty freaking weak (with exceptions, of course,) and the Energon and Robots In Disguise were nothing compared to something that's going to be this centric and important. Of course, that's just my opinion, and no one agrees with it anyway.

Well, either way, folks will always disagree, but that doesn't mean one side is "Wrong."

I agree 100%. No one is wrong. Like you said no one has made a gestalt on this scale before...it's going to be heavy. It may take extra time to come up with effective joints that don't ruin the look and don't interfere with bot and alt modes. It may not be possible at all with current tech. But I agree on the previous combiners. They have been weak for the most part. The G1 figures required extra parts...Energon as well. The only combiners I know of that didn't require extra parts were the two Beast Wars combiners (Magnaboss and Tripredacus) and that really bad Grimlock/Swoop one from Energon. In the movie we don't have magically appearing added parts (like Prime's trailer) that don't fit the combiner (where the hell could Bonecrusher have hid a giant forearm in his body?). I truly believe that, given time to work on it, Hasbro will come out with another version. Maybe Takara can do it and call it another Masterpiece version. Who knows? I really don't know why they didn't do it now, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now. Besides, the kids like the electronic gadgets...look at the more popular toys today. And if it got too complicated they wouldn't play with it and the parents wouldn't buy it...resulting in a massive financial loss- which in today's economy simply cannot be tolerated.

One other note: people have mentioned the "sturdy" nature of this Legends combiner. We don't know that yet...IMHO most of the Legends class figs have been rather fragile...who's to say this is an exception? We can't know until we get it in our hands...and that's the part that really frustrates a lot of us, I think.

Heres the thing though. Is the $100 version being marketed towards kids and parents? Because as I said in my post that seems to have been disregarded, I don't know many parents nor people in general who are willing to plop down a $100 on Hasbro's offering as is. It's under detailed, is missing a full mode for each figure and has an annoying light and sound gimmick. If they are marketing it towards a child, then that tells me Hasbro didn't learn their lesson from the first movie and Ultimate Bumblebee. It was expensive, had gimmicks that served no purpose, a horrible transformation and overall was worth nowhere near what they charged.

Well, here's the thing, Muffin, I really don't think this Devastator is marketed towards us, in fact I'm pretty sure Hasbro knew what the reaction would be from us which is the reason for the Legends one. So, I do believe that Devastator had certain restrictions placed on him due to kiddies, and my reasons are as follows:

A- I don't think collectors and fans constitute NEARLY enough of a market for a hundred dollar toy. True, we're the ones making money, but we're also a very small (relatively) group compared to all the young boys and girls Hasbro sells TFs to. Is there are a market in our group? Yes, but for deluxes and legends, like Hound and Cosmos, not huge figures like this one.

B- Looking at the Devastator figure, It's pretty clear it moves fairly directly and is pretty easy to put together. It also looks like it holds together. For tough and wear and tear by the younger people. That's who all the electronics and gimmicks are made for, after all. (Hence the complete lack of gimmicks in Universe. Even Animated had a gimmick or two.)

C-You say that no parent would buy this for their child, or wouldn't spend the money. While this is certainly true in some cases, it's not true for all of them. This isn't coming out on launch day, at the beginning of the summer, but August, when Summer is mostly over. That means he's going to start flooding shelves around Holiday time, and let me tell you, this would be an awesome gift for a kid. Bunch of vehicles that turn into one killer robot, from that (Hopefully) kick ass movie from the summer? I know ultimate Bumblebee has a bad rap but it certainly wasn't a shelf warmer around Christmas. In fact, I would say he only became a shelf warmer when he was sent out again with all the Bumblebees at Walmart. But, I digress. There ARE parents who are willing to spend the money, especially around the holidays. That's why almost all video game systems come out around the holidays. And with no new systems this year, there's little competition for that "big gift." When I was a kid, Christmas was when I got all MY big TFs and Megazords. So while your certainly right and 100 bucks is nothing to sneeze at, prohibitive for some families, I think it will sell to many others.

Parents of young TF fans are really the only ones Devastator is marketed to, given that almost all the collector fans are disgusted by it. And I believe Hasbro knew this, hence the legends class. They get to make money off of both groups, giving both what they want.

Just my humble opinion.

TheMuffin wrote:Heres the thing though. Is the $100 version being marketed towards kids and parents? Because as I said in my post that seems to have been disregarded, I don't know many parents nor people in general who are willing to plop down a $100 on Hasbro's offering as is. It's under detailed, is missing a full mode for each figure and has an annoying light and sound gimmick. If they are marketing it towards a child, then that tells me Hasbro didn't learn their lesson from the first movie and Ultimate Bumblebee. It was expensive, had gimmicks that served no purpose, a horrible transformation and overall was worth nowhere near what they charged.

Wasn't the Ultimate Bumblebee one of the "hot" items of the year? I don't have numbers to support that, but Hasbro pushed it pretty hard, and I often saw the damn thing in news/wire stories and photos about retail. Heck, I'd say re-releasing it with upgrades probably means they feel comfortable enough with the product to keep on store shelves, which they wouldn't do if it wasn't making money.

But I digress. That Devastator will probably sell well enough. It's pretty sweet looking. I kinda want one, still.

Kuribohfett wrote:T-Macksimus, well I don't agree with some of the negative points of your post (I happen to love the new Devastator more then the original. Then again, I could be misreading it your post.) it was well thought out and nicely reasoned.

Thanks for the reassurance. I was very mentally burned out last night which probably helped in the long run but also made me slip on a few things. I,too am digging the New Devastator. I think he's the greatest TF weapon-of-mass-destruction yet. His combined mode just happens to be a toy designers biggest pain in the butt.

Kuribohfett probably had the best response in saying that nobody here is "Wrong". It took looking at everyone else's arguments to finally see the biggest underlying problem so in a way we all worked together, I just tried to channel everyones talent to find a solution.

Counterpunch, however, was by far the brightest of all us when he said "Forget it" and got the hell out while the getting was good. The truly wise warrior knows when to say "Screw This" and saves his/her energy for a more worth-while battle. (like Wheelie bashing)

You shouldn't get on Wheelie's case. How can you hate this face?

This is a set-up right? One of those trick questions? Like when your wife asks you if these jeans make her ass look fat and she follows it up with "be honest!" and you know full well that any answer, including no answer at all, is going to leave you totally screwed!

Yeah, well since I'm not inclined to stealthily remove a 20 spot from the back pocket and divert the question by saying "hey, did you lose this in the cushions of the couch" (you newly married guys better be taking notes, this diversion could well save your ass someday) I'm just going to leave that question about Wheelies face unanswered since you can't get at me anyway.

It Is Him wrote:You shouldn't get on Wheelie's case. How can you hate this face?

My good god, and people said Frenzy looked scary.
I think I still like him more then G1 wheeely.

T-Macksimus wrote:This is a set-up right? One of those trick questions?

Yes. Yes, it was.

T-Macksimus wrote: Like when your wife asks you if these jeans make her ass look fat and she follows it up with "be honest!" and you know full well that any answer, including no answer at all, is going to leave you totally screwed!

This is an amateur mistake. The correct answer is a playful "Yes, it does make your butt look big," then eventually she'll stop asking. Take it from me. I've never been married, and if you follow my advice, you won't have to be... again.

It Is Him wrote:

T-Macksimus wrote:This is a set-up right? One of those trick questions?

Yes. Yes, it was.

T-Macksimus wrote: Like when your wife asks you if these jeans make her ass look fat and she follows it up with "be honest!" and you know full well that any answer, including no answer at all, is going to leave you totally screwed!

This is an amateur mistake. The correct answer is a playful "Yes, it does make your butt look big," then eventually she'll stop asking. Take it from me. I've never been married, and if you follow my advice, you won't have to be... again.

I was married for 5 years, notice the use of "was", and I'm going to have to claim extenuating circumstances on my situation. I HAD to tread carefully because between myself and my ex's first husband, she was skilled with the use of both short and long staves and (thanks to me) nunchaku. She also, to this day, still has a better set of throwing knives than I do. If you've ever seen the movie "Undercover Blues" with Dennis Quaid & Kathleen Turner, that's what we were like. I couldn't afford "playful" answers...too much risk involved. And yes, we have 2 kids which should scare the hell out of the rest of society. Fortunately for US I have raised them as TF Fans!

T-Macksimus wrote:

It Is Him wrote:

T-Macksimus wrote:This is a set-up right? One of those trick questions?

Yes. Yes, it was.

T-Macksimus wrote: Like when your wife asks you if these jeans make her ass look fat and she follows it up with "be honest!" and you know full well that any answer, including no answer at all, is going to leave you totally screwed!

This is an amateur mistake. The correct answer is a playful "Yes, it does make your butt look big," then eventually she'll stop asking. Take it from me. I've never been married, and if you follow my advice, you won't have to be... again.

I was married for 5 years, notice the use of "was", and I'm going to have to claim extenuating circumstances on my situation. I HAD to tread carefully because between myself and my ex's first husband, she was skilled with the use of both short and long staves and (thanks to me) nunchaku. She also, to this day, still has a better set of throwing knives than I do. If you've ever seen the movie "Undercover Blues" with Dennis Quaid & Kathleen Turner, that's what we were like. I couldn't afford "playful" answers...too much risk involved. And yes, we have 2 kids which should scare the hell out of the rest of society. Fortunately for US I have raised them as TF Fans!

Note to self: Don't teach girlfriend stick fighting.

It Is Him wrote:Note to self: Don't teach girlfriend stick fighting.

Seemed like a good idea when we were dating. Had to make sure she could defend herself when I wasn't around. Good way to keep things equal in a marriage too and it helps keep the kids in line

So have ther been any updates as to whether or not Devs. is going to make it to parts outside of Asia? I would figure that there has been enough questions and outcry for answers amongst all the fan sites that it would have made it back to the higher powers by now. I haven't heard anything yet but I'm not as "plugged in" as some of you other fine folks.

Good god I just realised that this thing will be almost Leaser-class size.

T-Macksimus wrote:

It Is Him wrote:Note to self: Don't teach girlfriend stick fighting.

Seemed like a good idea when we were dating. Had to make sure she could defend herself when I wasn't around. Good way to keep things equal in a marriage too and it helps keep the kids in line

So have ther been any updates as to whether or not Devs. is going to make it to parts outside of Asia? I would figure that there has been enough questions and outcry for answers amongst all the fan sites that it would have made it back to the higher powers by now. I haven't heard anything yet but I'm not as "plugged in" as some of you other fine folks.

True story, first day I met my wife I threw her across the room.

The details would clear this up a lot, whatever.

I stand by my original post entirely, I didn't feel the need to go into specifics and I was kidding about everyone being wrong who thought otherwise...obviously. What I'm saying, though, is that it could absolutely be done. Has anyone even seen the creativity in the animated line? When I first saw voltron-devastator I actually thought he was a cyber stomper...I wish I was kidding. He's not a gestalt. A transformers gestalt gives us individual robots and a combined mode. Actually you know what? There is absolutely no excuse that it wasn't done the right way. You think any dumb kid is going to be HAPPY when he opens his $100 devastator set and discovers they don't turn into individual robots, after seeing them/him kick ass in the movie? Kids will just assume they do, unlike us. For the most part the constructicons are in vehicle mode when combined to form devastator, they just needed to put a big flippin face on the tank of mixmaster. Size isn't even remotely an issue. As long as the set works, it doesn't matter how big or small it is. As for as being knuckle-dragging, that's how he is in the movie anyway! I'd rather have a real constructicons set with balance problems than a sad insult to real transformers fans. As for asking me if I have kids? who cares?! What does anything G1 have to do with transformer designs now? Nothing! Things have come a ridiculously long way, and if you showed some designs from today to people even 15 years ago they wouldn't believe they were possible. Look at magnaboss and tripredacus from beast wars, or JRX from RID. Amazing designs with fully poseable components and everything. Granted, they are just 3 member gestalt teams, but that is entirely beside the point. I can't talk about this anymore lol, tis aggravating. Habro will definitely regret the route they have chosen though, at least I hope so.

I think it can be done, and at a reasonable price (reasonable being around $100-$120). I just have a feeling it would have been part super complex transformation and part partsformer, and that would have lead to bitching and moaning as well, but at least we would have had a proper Devastator.