The Energon Pub

starfish wrote:

doomseer wrote:If its so difficult to make robots that transform into vehicles AND combine in this day and age then how come they managed it in 1985 with the original devastator? Then again with Superion, Menasor, Bruticus, Defensor, Abominus, need I go on?

Thay managed it in the 80s, because times were simpler then. "Fold the wings back and insert robot hand into post" is probably not a transformation that would be acceptable in today's more complex toy market.

True, but look at the Energon Combiners, or JRX/Railracer, or Magnaboss, or Tripredacus. Intricate transformations (especially on the last two in terms of getting it from robot mode to combined mode) Far more intricate than folding a piece here and there, yet they were able to make them combine.

Why now, when the technology is readily available, do they take a step back? It's not a design issue, it's a money issue. (I.E. let's make more.)

starfish wrote:

doomseer wrote:They were a lot simpler - granted I agree, BUT all the other TF's were then too. They COULD modernise the way they make combiners and have in the past. Landfill? There have been loads of complicated combiners.

As I've said in other posts already, I completely agree on this point. I'm sure that if Hasbro gor their brains in gear, with today's technology they could make the most kick-ass combiner ever seen.

The problem, however, is in making a combiner that matches what we see on screen. When Hasbro were designing Landfill or Superion Maximus, they had complete design freedom, and as such we were rewarded with some pretty cool toys (although Landfill, to be fair, wasn't very stable or articulated).

It's all very well Hasbro making a good combiner toy - but it's a whole nother matter to make something that both functions as a toy AND matches the CGI characters we see on-screen.

But they HAVE done that. Haven't you looked at the pictures of Leader Class Optimus Prime? Or watched Peaugh's review on YouTube?

He's intricate, he's CGI accurate (with a small percentage of cheating), and he even has the Mech Alive gimmick working as well.

If they can do that with him, they can do it with the other figures. Why they haven't done so with Megatron is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, I'll buy him because I like the figure (I really do), but even I'll admit it has quite a few shortcomings and it's not the best work, they could've done more.

After seeing Prime, I now know that Hasbro is capable of incredible feats (along with Takara since this is a joint operation), there's no excuse for a two set system to have the "complete" Constructicons. Again...money.

starfish wrote:

doomseer wrote:Isn't Movie Prime even rumoured to be combining with someone in the new film? The figure outline I have seen for that looks as complicated as any other movie aesthetic TF. They COULD make it if they wanted to.

Aparrently, this combiniation is nothing more technical than Prime wearing Jetfire as a backpack. If you think that's complicated, then I hope you had fun with your Action Masters.

You have absolutely no idea how it will work. We got the idea of a backpack from the Power Bot shown at the Australian Toy Fair, but how many of those Power Bots are accurate to the CGI models, not to mention their Deluxe, Voyager, and Leader Class counterparts? None. Plus it was simplified for the kids, that wow factor.

Peaugh reviewed Optimus and said he couldn't find any connection points that really stood out, for Prime to combine with Jetfire, yet we know he does. What does that tell us? Their design team worked above and beyond to make Optimus the best of the best and hide as much as possible so as to not sacrifice the figure.

And there's no need to be smarmy, you're just jealous because all you have IS Action Masters.

starfish wrote:

doomseer wrote:'And Yeah TF's are toys - but saying they are all marketed for kids is not true. If that were the case they would not be trying to sell the likes of 25th Anniversary Inferno or indeed most of the classics. They trade on a nostalgia that only Adults can relate to and conveniently are well designed enough to be attractive toys for those who are too young to remember who they were designed to be reminiscent of. Alternators/Binaltech certainly can't be considered toys here in the UK as you have to be 14 to be able to play with one according to the boxes here.

Adults have a much larger disposable income than children and Hasbro etc know this. They aren't making two versions because of difficulty or to appeal to children - they are making two versions so that they can double the amount of cash they make from it. It's clear and obvious and its commercialism and profiteering at its worst. Boooo!

Firstly, what the hell's wrong with that? I mean, they are a company aren't they? They exist to make profits, don't they? So what is exactly is your beef with Hasbro trying to make profits by selling toys?

Besides, as I've said before, I personally think that Hasbro would have made a fully-functioning set of Combiners if it were possible. Given the technical demands of a screen-accurate Devastator, I think Hasbro's decision is a good compromise.

What do you mean what's wrong with that? You've got your rose colored glasses on, haven't you?

Yes, they are a company. (We know this.)

Yes, they out to make profits (though that isn't their specific reason for existing, they're just cashing in on their ability to create something.)

Our beef (I agree with him) is that they're making you double dip into the wallet for the SAME TOYS! And in an economy as bad as the one facing us currently. There are people here on the boards who've lost their jobs and will continue to do so. They can't afford the necessities, they most certainly can't afford frivolities (and I'm not so stupid that I'd miss the point that they shouldn't be, and their priorities should be elsewhere. Point still remains though.)

That also affects the children in the household, which means they too won't be able to afford the toys, yet Hasbro is asking us to pay double to get the Constructicons and Devastator? You don't see a problem with that? Really?

It's bad enough to pull that crap when the economy is doing well, but people will pay and Hasbro's gamble paid off. The economy is so bad right now, it's not only a bad idea, but a selfish one and it could backfire in their faces (which would teach them a lesson, really.)

On top of that, they've raised their prices due to the lead paint scare in China. (Yes, I realize the removal of lead paint is a good thing, so please don't patronize me, I can just feel it in your post, it's just dripping in a sarcastic and patronizing tone...)

So now we have to pay extra on the stuff we already buy, and we're expected to pay double when they could've just given us the whole thing from the get go, but they didn't. They took the low road and decided to make us spend ungodly amounts of money, in a terrible economy. (and yes, I realize it's up to the customer as to whether or not spend the money, but this is temptation, plain and simple. If it wasn't toys, it'd be something else, because we're human. And Hasbro's betting on that. And it'll work.)

Good compromise? Sure. We compromise, they make beaucoup bucks. After seeing what Optimus is capable of on his own, there's no excuse. After seeing that the Constructicons have a third mode as a selling point, when that third mode could've been used for the combining tech, it goes to show that there's NO FRIGGIN' EXCUSE.

Many (but not all) fans love Animated. It's slowly grinding toward death and we're not even sure we'll see the figures we were promised, they've already canceled two figures!

Almost everyone can agree on Universe, and it was put on the back burner for both Animated and ROTF, but now that Animated might not even make it to the end of the year, it's a double slap in the face to the Universe fans.

They've put all their hopes, dreams, wishes, and eggs in one basket, and basically popped us all the finger and said "Here's what you get for your precious 25th. Anniversary. DEAL WITH IT."

That...is fiscally irresponsible and STUPID. What if the movie isn't as awesome as it looks? (It happens!) What if the toys don't sell as well as they hoped?

They just scuttled two toylines that were showing returns (admittedly, Animated not as much as Universe) in favor of something that could. Banking on a maybe is a DANGEROUS idea, and they're stickin' it to us to help save them from this risky endeavor.

I know, I know, the first movie did a billion in combined ticket, Blu-Ray and HD/DVD sales.

I know, I know, they couldn't keep the first movie's toys in stock.

But they had a strong economy, people wanting to give TFs a chance on the big screen, and theater attendance was up.

We have the opposite on the economy, attendance at theaters is way, way, way down. And there are people who saw the first movie, couldn't stand it and most definitely won't watch the sequel.

All it takes is one to get the ball rolling, and from there it turns into a potential disaster.

If I were them, sure, I'd lean towards banking on ROTF being the IT movie of 2009, but I'd also be smart enough to see that there are huge financial problems, and I'd keep at least Universe around as a fall back plan in case the eggs in one basket thing blew up in my face.

It's just a ridiculous situation is what it is.

Autobot032 wrote:True, but look at the Energon Combiners, or JRX/Railracer, or Magnaboss, or Tripredacus. Intricate transformations (especially on the last two in terms of getting it from robot mode to combined mode) Far more intricate than folding a piece here and there, yet they were able to make them combine.

But concessions WERE made, especially with regards to the Beast Wars combiners. Ironhide had a really odd robot mode, for example. And Tripredacus had really terrible hands. These may be minor points, but you can't deny that trade-offs in various modes were made to get those toys exactly right.

But when you are trying to make ALL THREE modes match a pre-existing design, it's very, very tricky to get done.

Autobot032 wrote:But they HAVE done that. Haven't you looked at the pictures of Leader Class Optimus Prime? Or watched Peaugh's review on YouTube?

He's intricate, he's CGI accurate (with a small percentage of cheating), and he even has the Mech Alive gimmick working as well.

I think, in a way, you've answered your own question here. The new Leader Prime is indeed an amazing peiece of work, as is Voyager Starscream. Hasbro designers certainly managed to push the boundaries with those two.

And yet they couldn't make a fully-functional set of Constructicons. Do think they didn't even make the attempt? Do you think they just couldn't be bothered?

Maybe, just maybe, a fully-working Devastator would require levels of engineering and mental gymnastics that are even beyond the designers of such excellent toys as Prime and Starscream.

Autobot032 wrote:You have absolutely no idea how it will work. We got the idea of a backpack from the Power Bot shown at the Australian Toy Fair, but how many of those Power Bots are accurate to the CGI models, not to mention their Deluxe, Voyager, and Leader Class counterparts? None. Plus it was simplified for the kids, that wow factor.

True, we don't know how Prime and Jetfire will merge - which makes it a terrible example to use in a "Hasbro CAN make intricate CGI-accurate combiners" argument, as doomseer was.

Autobot032 wrote:Our beef (I agree with him) is that they're making you double dip into the wallet for the SAME TOYS! And in an economy as bad as the one facing us currently. There are people here on the boards who've lost their jobs and will continue to do so. They can't afford the necessities, they most certainly can't afford frivolities (and I'm not so stupid that I'd miss the point that they shouldn't be, and their priorities should be elsewhere. Point still remains though.)

That also affects the children in the household, which means they too won't be able to afford the toys, yet Hasbro is asking us to pay double to get the Constructicons and Devastator? You don't see a problem with that? Really?

It's bad enough to pull that crap when the economy is doing well, but people will pay and Hasbro's gamble paid off. The economy is so bad right now, it's not only a bad idea, but a selfish one and it could backfire in their faces (which would teach them a lesson, really.)

On top of that, they've raised their prices due to the lead paint scare in China. (Yes, I realize the removal of lead paint is a good thing, so please don't patronize me, I can just feel it in your post, it's just dripping in a sarcastic and patronizing tone...)

So now we have to pay extra on the stuff we already buy, and we're expected to pay double when they could've just given us the whole thing from the get go, but they didn't. They took the low road and decided to make us spend ungodly amounts of money, in a terrible economy.

Nice rant. The simple fact is that Hasbro aren't putting a gun to your head. If people are so stupid that they buy two Devastators when their livelihoods are under threat, more fool them. Meanwhile, those who CAN afford them, and those who are unaffected by the economic climate, and who like the toys, can do so if they wish.

Autobot032 wrote:But this is temptation, plain and simple. If it wasn't toys, it'd be something else, because we're human. And Hasbro's betting on that. And it'll work.

You paint Hasbro as the snake deviously offering the magic apple, hoping we all give into temptation.

But as we all know from the story, the snake was absolutely spot on, because without him and his apple we'd all still be butt-naked and living in ignorance.

starfish wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:True, but look at the Energon Combiners, or JRX/Railracer, or Magnaboss, or Tripredacus. Intricate transformations (especially on the last two in terms of getting it from robot mode to combined mode) Far more intricate than folding a piece here and there, yet they were able to make them combine.

But concessions WERE made, especially with regards to the Beast Wars combiners. Ironhide had a really odd robot mode, for example. And Tripredacus had really terrible hands. These may be minor points, but you can't deny that trade-offs in various modes were made to get those toys exactly right.

But when you are trying to make ALL THREE modes match a pre-existing design, it's very, very tricky to get done.

Autobot032 wrote:But they HAVE done that. Haven't you looked at the pictures of Leader Class Optimus Prime? Or watched Peaugh's review on YouTube?

He's intricate, he's CGI accurate (with a small percentage of cheating), and he even has the Mech Alive gimmick working as well.

I think, in a way, you've answered your own question here. The new Leader Prime is indeed an amazing peiece of work, as is Voyager Starscream. Hasbro designers certainly managed to push the boundaries with those two.

And yet they couldn't make a fully-functional set of Constructicons. Do think they didn't even make the attempt? Do you think they just couldn't be bothered?

Maybe, just maybe, a fully-working Devastator would require levels of engineering and mental gymnastics that are even beyond the designers of such excellent toys as Prime and Starscream.

Autobot032 wrote:You have absolutely no idea how it will work. We got the idea of a backpack from the Power Bot shown at the Australian Toy Fair, but how many of those Power Bots are accurate to the CGI models, not to mention their Deluxe, Voyager, and Leader Class counterparts? None. Plus it was simplified for the kids, that wow factor.

True, we don't know how Prime and Jetfire will merge - which makes it a terrible example to use in a "Hasbro CAN make intricate CGI-accurate combiners" argument, as doomseer was.

Autobot032 wrote:Our beef (I agree with him) is that they're making you double dip into the wallet for the SAME TOYS! And in an economy as bad as the one facing us currently. There are people here on the boards who've lost their jobs and will continue to do so. They can't afford the necessities, they most certainly can't afford frivolities (and I'm not so stupid that I'd miss the point that they shouldn't be, and their priorities should be elsewhere. Point still remains though.)

That also affects the children in the household, which means they too won't be able to afford the toys, yet Hasbro is asking us to pay double to get the Constructicons and Devastator? You don't see a problem with that? Really?

It's bad enough to pull that crap when the economy is doing well, but people will pay and Hasbro's gamble paid off. The economy is so bad right now, it's not only a bad idea, but a selfish one and it could backfire in their faces (which would teach them a lesson, really.)

On top of that, they've raised their prices due to the lead paint scare in China. (Yes, I realize the removal of lead paint is a good thing, so please don't patronize me, I can just feel it in your post, it's just dripping in a sarcastic and patronizing tone...)

So now we have to pay extra on the stuff we already buy, and we're expected to pay double when they could've just given us the whole thing from the get go, but they didn't. They took the low road and decided to make us spend ungodly amounts of money, in a terrible economy.

Nice rant. The simple fact is that Hasbro aren't putting a gun to your head. If people are so stupid that they buy two Devastators when their livelihoods are under threat, more fool them. Meanwhile, those who CAN afford them, and those who are unaffected by the economic climate, and who like the toys, can do so if they wish.

Autobot032 wrote:But this is temptation, plain and simple. If it wasn't toys, it'd be something else, because we're human. And Hasbro's betting on that. And it'll work.

You paint Hasbro as the snake deviously offering the magic apple, hoping we all give into temptation.

But as we all know from the story, the snake was absolutely spot on, because without him and his apple we'd all still be butt-naked and living in ignorance.

You almost had a good point, but you threw out any importance with me when you brought Religion into the conversation, and made a dig towards the religious. (And let's face it, that's exactly what you're doing.)

Politics & Religion is another forum, and not welcome here.

I'm done talking to you, that was a dirty underhanded tactic.

Play nice.

Ask yourself with your next post..."Self, is this going to blow Counterpunch's beer buzz?"

If the answer is 'YES!', prepare for an infraction.

Counterpunch wrote:Where were you guys yesterday when I was getting kicked in the balls for suggesting that we should be getting a full 3 mode set of Constructicons?

By now I would think you'd be wearing an iron cup.

As for this debate, I'm still holding out hope that they give us 3 mode Constructicons down the line. Something tells me ROTF won't be the only movie Devastator is in and we'll get that true combiner set eventually. Of course "now" would be better, but Hasbro won't get my money "now", it is their loss.

Delicon wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:Where were you guys yesterday when I was getting kicked in the balls for suggesting that we should be getting a full 3 mode set of Constructicons?

By now I would think you'd be wearing an iron cup.

As for this debate, I'm still holding out hope that they give us 3 mode Constructicons down the line. Something tells me ROTF won't be the only movie Devastator is in and we'll get that true combiner set eventually. Of course "now" would be better, but Hasbro won't get my money "now", it is their loss.

Well, given the survival-rate of the first film, you may well be in luck. I think I'm right in saying that 4 of the 8 Decepticons seen in the first movie will return in ROTF, so I'd give you odds of 50-50.

I guaranty that kit-bashers will combine the two sets and create one fully functional three mode Devy.

I know it's not the same but if you guys haven't already seen, there's a legends class set, so thats now the 3rd that does all 3 modes

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/ ... ing/15805/

if you look at Mixmaster, he looks about the same [hard to see cause of size but close enough for a legends class fig].

There still may be a trick up their sleeve, maybe the 7th figure [the one shown in the legends pic but not mentioned or shown for the larger sets] will have something extra like a face or something to go onto Mixmaster.