The Energon Pub

I'd imagine the two could be considered to negate each other. Chances are, the xp tied up in robot mode points is comparable to the xp that it would take to reach FP 2?

Possibly.
To be honest, I have no idea how much xp is tied up in the robot mode it had (it was about level 4 or 5 i think), but I dont generally keep a record of my xp gains.

I just want to be sure this sort of case is considered, and as a reasonably prominent 'con player the last thing I want to look like im doing is condoning cheating.

Whoa. I have a character with a level 11, so I'll reset him soon as I can. (Why do I? I reset him, clicked on a stat too many times, and then didn't have the time to re-reset him. Maybe that's a case to program in a 'Downgrade' button.)

But as far as getting a PM only by visiting the forums, as far back as I can remember, you get an e-mail about it. And don't you get a pop-up whenever you visit anywhere on the site? It's been a little while since I've got a PM I didn't know about through e-mail, so I might be fuzzy on this, but I can remember something like that happening. At any rate, the e-mail should warn anybody of any PMs, so you could still give a warning out.

I guess the user could have the e-mail setting switched to off, or not allow pop-ups. In that case, you could code the glitched character's name in another colour or put a graphic beside the name saying "SUSPENDED" or something, and the character is unusable or at least flagged until the user clicks on the SUSPENDED graphic and sees a message about what's going on.

Because sometimes a person doesn't know a character has exploited a bug, and just outright punishing someone without warning for something they didn't know they did, couldn't avoid, or can't correct may seem harsh.

Me, Grimlock! wrote:But as far as getting a PM only by visiting the forums, as far back as I can remember, you get an e-mail about it. And don't you get a pop-up whenever you visit anywhere on the site?

Only when you actively log on to the forums. If you just play the game then you dont.

Scantrons idea is the way forwards, add a PM link to the registry then they wont have an option but to notice it.

Psychout wrote:Any suggestions on what I should do?

Oi. Well, half the point of having alts like that is apparently to be able to say, 'look, I haven't reset in ages', but you're dealing with two game snags there that I don't think you should be expected to 'play through' (I really thought the RMs shouldn't be removed in the first place until OS could reimburse the xp).

I'm hesitant to say that I could fix the alt for you after you've reset, since I'm afraid that a bunch of other people dealing with the same issue will either be pissed that I'm diminishing the value of their LE alts, or flood me with large numbers of pms to get similar problems fixed...

What do others think? Am I justified in restoring his rare alt if he resets? Or should I not open that bag of worms?

In the case of people exploiting game glitches, potentially out of ignorance or no fault of their own, should the first warning not be accompanied by a punishment, and include an offer to manually restore someone's alt if they correct the problem before they receive a second warning (which would carry a punishment with it)?

Me, Grimlock: Other problem is changed E-mail addresses. I haven't updated the info in my profile in ages, so all my PM notices go to my old college E-mail address. I suppose the burden of responsibility rests on the player at that point... I think you also have to select the option to receive an E-mail, which some people may not do out of habit ('I don't want spam').

Caelus wrote:

Psychout wrote:Any suggestions on what I should do?

Oi. Well, half the point of having alts like that is apparently to be able to say, 'look, I haven't reset in ages', but you're dealing with two game snags there that I don't think you should be expected to 'play through' (I really thought the RMs shouldn't be removed in the first place until OS could reimburse the xp).

I'm hesitant to say that I could fix the alt for you after you've reset, since I'm afraid that a bunch of other people dealing with the same issue will either be pissed that I'm diminishing the value of their LE alts, or flood me with large numbers of pms to get similar problems fixed...

What do others think? Am I justified in restoring his rare alt if he resets? Or should I not open that bag of worms?

I'm content to keep PF as he is (if given the choice ill keep the flawed alt - its half the fun of having these rare alts,) but I will abide by whatever decision you make regardless.

I would vote to fix it for him or after Mkall finds a fix for the stat glitch open up all the alts for a day or two so everyone can reset I know some might not like that idea but thats all I got.

da

Isn't there a way to set up the code to where if a player already has 12 bots and 1 or more gets repo no more can be created with out a mods aproval? How about instead of the repo the bot is forced into Stasis Lock for a set time?

your TF is tied up with red tape; he will be finished in 99:59:59

I'm trying to focus on solutions that use tools already at our disposal.

Unfortunately, that's not easy.



As far as the Alt thing that would be really cool - do it on May 3rd (Saturday) on Free Comic Book Day.

Plenty of warning would give those toting LE Alts a final few weeks to gloat over their accomplishments before effectively 'starting over'. Would also be a good time to add some new alt images to the database.

Unfortunately, I don't know if Mkall knows how to make all the Alts available at once like that.

And of course, there would be a couple dozen people that would pitch a fit about everyone having access to all the alts. I still remember OS wanted to do the same thing after fixing the weapons, so that everyone would be able to reset to take the changes into account without losing their alts. There were players who actually wanted him to leave the weapons broken so their alts would remain exclusive! Strange people...

I think we need both a dedicated programmer, and a dedicated admin at the very least, we need people to make the game, and then we need people to run the game, and they need to get on with the majority of players, if they start pulling **** or dissapearing for RL then really they need to give up there responsibilites(and lets face the only person who graciousness to bow out was Warhammer) a two-man team does not seem up to it, they simply aren't enough hours in the day even if they had all the powers they needed.

why don't we just go with OS's penalties?
1. warning
2. two week ban from Heavy Metal War
3. one month ban from Heavy Metal War and Seibertron.com's forums.
4. permanent ban from Seibertron.com

Tammuz wrote:I think we need both a dedicated programmer, and a dedicated admin at the very least, we need people to make the game, and then we need people to run the game.

First problem there is the dirth(sp?) of people both qualified and willing to sink many, many hours of their life into the game and its community, especially when you eliminate everyone who makes mistakes, has real-life commitments, and doesn't get on with the majority of players.*

*Majority of players being the most vocal portion of the small percentage that actually attends the board. Many of whom won't like you on principal no matter what you do.

Second problem is actually getting someone added to the staff. It either happens like instantly, or never.

if they start pulling **** or dissapearing for RL then really they need to give up there responsibilites(and lets face the only person who graciousness to bow out was Warhammer).

So OS quitting doesn't count?

However cealus, if one increase the number of staff one increases the number of people who can be turned to, for example if someone didn't get on with you or mkall they are pretty much screwed for HMW right now, if you increase the HMW staff roster further you maximise the chances of bringing someone on board they will get along with.

and this has the added bonuses that if some **** does go down they are more likely to listen to someone they get along with in piping down than someone who they see as a self serving corrupt bastard thus decreasing the chances of flame wars erupting; if someone on the staff is seen as on their side they are not going to be anti-staff

and it also means that individually the amount of knowhow and time a person needs to improve HMW decreases as well.

and no i don't think OS quitting counts becuase he quit AFTER leaving us for several months of absence, he then came back tunred off bot modes had another couple of months of absence and then quit. I think he should've quit sooner. about a week before his whole ban the subfactions crusade.

For **** sake, i'm just going to put this in the biggest possible writing to remind people that it's suppose to exist.

SUPPORT STAFF

If Caelus can "arrest" bots and move it to his account and he (or heaven forbid other Mods if we ever get any) doesn't have time to keep checking the person in question to make sure they're not creating new bots to replace the ones removed, then appoint someone from the support staff to do such things. They don't need any special powers to just look at a team, they just need to look and if a new bot is created they can then alert Caelus or whoever.

The Support Staff was setup for a reason. OS may have pissed all over it but it's time it was brought back and put to good use.

Well lets get one of every faction up there. Mkall can take OS's spot as the head HMW dude and get a support cast, like Tekka since he volunteered or Tammuz who is one of the most knowledgable in the game. Caelus can be the jack of all trades guy and get AS off there since I don't know when he was even playing the game last. Get active people who truely care about the game up there. Heck, we could even throw you up there, Burn.

Evolution Prime wrote:Well lets get one of every faction up there.

If you're talking Mod-wise, let's not.

A Mod shouldn't be chosen based on their faction. They should be chosen based on how active they are, how much they can be trusted (which apparently rules me out), how much they've contributed to HMW, how much more they can contribute to HMW, and how respected they are by their fellow HMW players and NOT because of how much arse kissing they've done.

Support Staff wise, all you need is people who can contribute to moving the game forward be it through ideas, organisation, willingness to participate, coding, etc etc. Again, no need for a representative from any factions, that's what the Faction Forum is for.

Burn wrote:

Evolution Prime wrote:Well lets get one of every faction up there.

If you're talking Mod-wise, let's not.

A Mod shouldn't be chosen based on their faction. They should be chosen based on how active they are, how much they can be trusted (which apparently rules me out), how much they've contributed to HMW, how much more they can contribute to HMW, and how respected they are by their fellow HMW players and NOT because of how much arse kissing they've done.

Support Staff wise, all you need is people who can contribute to moving the game forward be it through ideas, organisation, willingness to participate, coding, etc etc. Again, no need for a representative from any factions, that's what the Faction Forum is for.

Well I would expect all that criteria to be met before becoming a mod. I just think it would be more benificial if each faction was represented. If there was a canidate from every faction that metts that then, go ahead and put them up there. That way a faction doesn't feel left out and their faction has someone they feel they could go to. Not that it should matter who you go to, but I am sure there are some that would prefer to go to their respective faction.

Support staff would be an entire different animal. Anyone who care about the progress of the game and is active enough should have the chance to be apart of it. I would even include you on that list

I fail to see the need for faction representation on the Mod list.

Mods should be there to ensure the stability of HMW, they should be able to put faction bias aside for the WHOLE community.

Thus the idea of leadership for the factions where the leaders would then get Mod powers for the faction forums.

And I would expect them to put the good of HMW above their respective faction.

Tammuz wrote:However cealus, if one increase the number of staff one increases the number of people who can be turned to, for example if someone didn't get on with you or mkall they are pretty much screwed for HMW right now, if you increase the HMW staff roster further you maximise the chances of bringing someone on board they will get along with.

But that is really only going to help if the third, fourth, fifth, etc. mods all get along with different people.

Mods are chosen from the same general back-ground do to the requirements that Seibertron maintains, meaning that they tend to get along with and not get along with the same people.

And of course, I feel compelled to return to a previous point - there are several people around here that are so antiestablishment that if they became staff-members they'd probably hate themselves.

and this has the added bonuses that if some **** does go down they are more likely to listen to someone they get along with in piping down than someone who they see as a self serving corrupt bastard thus decreasing the chances of flame wars erupting; if someone on the staff is seen as on their side they are not going to be anti-staff

Unfortunately, even if someone in the staff disagrees with a particular policy or decision, it's not something that one airs on the boards. We argue it at length within the staff forums, but like most good organizations, we work to maintain solidarity in public. So, even if someone on the staff agrees with a group of protesting posters/players, they probably won't be seen as 'on their side' unless they publicly resign their position in protest. If they maintain neutrality, the community complains that they're hiding, if they actively try to play mediator, they get called a traitor.

In the really nasty conflicts, there are always going to be a few people left unhappy, jaded, and bitter. Increasing the number of staff members won't change that.

Quick side-note though: Don't misunderstand me, I would like to have more official staff working on HMW. It would be nice to have more hands sharing the load, backup, or a potential replacement. It also think that the Game Programmer and Admin shouldn't necessarily be the same thing. OS had spectacular programming skills, but he didn't really have the people skills to qualify him for the social side of the job.

If Caelus can "arrest" bots and move it to his account and he (or heaven forbid other Mods if we ever get any) doesn't have time to keep checking the person in question to make sure they're not creating new bots to replace the ones removed, then appoint someone from the support staff to do such things. They don't need any special powers to just look at a team, they just need to look and if a new bot is created they can then alert Caelus or whoever.

Yeah, we can do that. It's just not a particularly elegant solution. And when a person creates a new bot, does that warrant another warning/penalty, or should I just vaporize the bot and leave it at that?



The following has no bearing on this thread:

Tammuz wrote:No i don't think OS quitting counts becuase he quit AFTER leaving us for several months of absence, he then came back tunred off bot modes had another couple of months of absence and then quit. I think he should've quit sooner.

OS first tentatively told the staff that he was quitting early last December. He just didn't make it public because, I imagine, he didn't want to make a major decision while still riled up about it recent events. He told us he was considering quitting, especially since he had a time consuming job coming up, but with no replacements waiting in the wings, and no one in the staff really wanting him to leave, he was essentially urged to go do his job and think it over before deciding for good.

So long story short: OS said 'I quit'. We all said, 'Think about it first, please' and hoped he'd change his mind. Two months later he said 'No, I still quit', at which point we relayed the official news to you guys. We didn't say anything sooner because it could have been premature and caused unnecessary turmoil/confusion, which we traditionally have enough of here. Plus one would have hoped that maybe Seibertron could have dug up a potential replacement by then. If you'll recall though, around early December, we did stop promoting v2 and other major improvements, and even tried to dampen the flames of excitement in regard to those features to soften the blow if he did quit.

None of that's important now, of course, but maybe because of my time as a history major, I feel compelled to provide you guys with some idea of what actually happened, and dispell the erroneous notion that OS was dismissed the way Glyph was.

Caelus wrote:

If Caelus can "arrest" bots and move it to his account and he (or heaven forbid other Mods if we ever get any) doesn't have time to keep checking the person in question to make sure they're not creating new bots to replace the ones removed, then appoint someone from the support staff to do such things. They don't need any special powers to just look at a team, they just need to look and if a new bot is created they can then alert Caelus or whoever.

Yeah, we can do that. It's just not a particularly elegant solution. And when a person creates a new bot, does that warrant another warning/penalty, or should I just vaporize the bot and leave it at that?

Oh hell yeah it warrants another warning/penalty.

I remember GR's month long suspension, once it was over he came back and overamped to the extreme and made up two months worth of xp in a month. It was a blatant display of "yeah screw you guys, overamping isn't illegal so i'm going to do it and get myself back to the top quicker and piss you all off". So his suspension in the end meant NOTHING.

For a person to turn around and create a new bot in place of the old one then that's not punishment. Whether you're level 0 or level 11, you're still playing the game.

So perhaps it may just be easier to suspend people for any violations. It saves the Mods/Admins the trouble of shifting bots around.

Burn wrote:So perhaps it may just be easier to suspend people for any violations.

Unfortunately I think you're right. I was hoping for a punishment that wouldn't require Mkall, or whoever might be the top game admin at the time, to deal with it, but I'm thinking character-arresting is not the optimal solution.

Okay, how does this sound as far as procedure:

Moderator or Admin sees a person breaking one of the HMW rules, or the infraction is reported to the Mod or Admin by another player.

If infraction pertains to Seibertron.com general rules (profanity etc.) following warning policies for board, including report to CB.

If infraction pertains to HMW exclusive rules:

1) Send notification via PM that the person has broken the established rules of the game. If it is necessary for the player to reset one or more of their bots to come in line with protocol, offer to restore any rare or limited alts they have after they have reset.

2) If the person does not respond within ??? amount of time, or if they resume illicit activities afterward, suspend their team. Time-Suspended will be based on how much xp they likely accumulated while cheating, and how long they would normally take to accumulate that much xp.*

3) If the person resumes their illicit activities again following restoration (demonstrating unwillingness to abide by rules), or steps 1 & 2 occur again with a different incident (demonstrating chronic problems), delete player's team.



Step 2 is the one I need a lot of help with.

First of all, I need to know, how long should a moderator reasonably wait between steps 1 & 2? If the mods have a large civillian support staff to help us, we could go the extra mile and keep track of how many missions offenders have played since receiving the first warning, as I think that's a more pertinent measure than just time. If the person doesn't respond in 24 hrs, they may simply have not been on for 24hrs. If they've played 24 missions since you issued the first warning though...

Second of all, here's how I'm thinking the xp penalty / suspension should work: Cheaters should be docked double the amount of xp they would have earned using the cheat, or suspended for twice the amount of time it would have taken them to earn that xp legitimately. I want to make sure someone who has cheated can't come back after a suspension or xp penalty and still have more xp than they would have if they hadn't cheated. Obviously, I'd prefer that they have significantly less.

The 20% or 30% xp dock sounded fine at first, but then I realized that a person could find a glitch that would allow them to earn 200% xp, in which case, even if they quit after the second warning, they'd have still have made a 170% profit.

Can you guys come up with a fair way of making that work?

Like I said in an earlier post, the biggest problem is how some exploit/glitches are discovered and operate.

They're all unique so set violations may not be appropriate for the exploit/glitch at the time.

So this is what I propose to be put into the rules.

Glitches and Exploits
• If you discover a glitch in the game that allows your bots to be given an unfair advantage, regardless of how minor it may be, you MUST report it immediately and cease taking advantage of the exploit immediately. If you do so there will be no consequences.

• If you do not report the glitch and utilise it to give yourself an unfair advantage then you will be given a warning to stop exploiting the glitch. You will have 24 hours to comply with this warning, if you continue to exploit after the 24 hour period a second warning will be issued and you will have 12 hours to comply with the warning. If you fail to comply after the 12 hours you will be suspended according to Seibertron.com rules and face an xp and energon deduction. (First offense, 3 days, second offense, 1 week, 3rd offense, total ban, or whatever those rules are)

Now in terms of xp and energon deduction i'll leave that up to others to decide.

I can go with you on that but I need a... I think the best term would be "Operational Definition", for "Unfair Advantage".

Need to remove a little bit of the ambiguity; for example a person exploiting the current glitch might defend themselves saying that 'anyone could do it if they wanted to' therefore, it wasn't 'unfair'.

A more precise definition of "glitch" would be good too.

You'll have to forgive me for being anal; I want these rules to provide a solid guideline for both players and staff-members for a long time, so I'm trying to cover all the bases from the start.