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Glyph wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

chuckdawg1999 wrote:I just learned this recently with all the drama around Nickelodeon, if a show is going to go 3 or more seasons...

But, neither Prime nor Cyberverse ever aired on Nickelodeon.

Not just Nickelodeon - this got some discussion around the WGA/SAG-AFTRA strikes, with Netflix being particularly called out at the time IIRC. Seems it's a known tactic by the streamers to get around production crew pay scaling in the standard contracts. (Not saying it's necessarily at issue here.)

Yes, I'm sorry, many networks have pulled stuff like I mentioned, Disney springs to mind.

Studios are making massive losses on woke products right now. They're moving away from them, not because they're evil but because they're unprofitable.

Yes, that is definitely what is happening, A+ take, excellent commentary.

I think we are also forgetting: this show is hard to watch, from a "find the show to actually watch" way. Paramount+ is one of the lower ranked streaming services, and the Nick schedule has been far behind and very lightly advertised.

As for the toys... most of them are Cyberverse repaints, Hasbro has not put a lot of effort into the toyline either. I think that low effort in toyline production shows.

It is a good show, a good quality show with great animation and a good voice cast. It just feels like it was always meant to be lowly advertised and just run its course

D-Maximal_Primal wrote: It just feels like it was always meant to be lowly advertised and just run its course

This is it, exactly. The show is disposable and, in the end, will contribute absolutely nothing to the mythos of Transformers. The only reason it is there is to sell Optimus and Bumblebee toys and it's even failing at that. The success of the first decade of Marvel movies was that they built towards an inevitable climax (the "Portals" scene...I still get chills when I watch it). This is piecemeal, and eminently ignorable. There is no build. There is nothing going forward, they aren't writing towards some long term climax. It's just...there. If the goal is to build brand recognition, then I'm not even sure they are doing that because of the lack of availability to watch.

If you want success evaluation, TelevisionStats.com has it listed 800 spots below Golden Girls reruns, the original Law and Order reruns, and 750 spots below Family Matters reruns. The show's engagement score is 0.59. By contrast, the number 1 show right now, X-Men 97, has an engagement score of 57.2 If there were still only the normal number of cable networks, this show wouldn't have have even MADE it to season 2, let alone season 3. In order to make the top 200, you need a score of 2.93. It barely makes the top 1000, let alone the top 200 and has NEVER peaked into the top 500. That's failure.

I do think we need a better strategy for reaching new young audiences.

My nephews don't watch regular cabel, they only watch streaming services.
The only reason they know about transformers is because I showed them episodes of Beast Wars and Transformers Prime.

(I did run into the problem that most of the figures that I actually buy are too complex for 7 year olds.
I had to buy a couple of deluxes that intuitively transform in less than 4 steps.)

A lot of the old stuff is already on youtube, but I don't know the customer Journey that brings a 7 year old to episodes of transformers animated on youtube.

First-Aid wrote:

D-Maximal_Primal wrote: It just feels like it was always meant to be lowly advertised and just run its course

This is it, exactly. The show is disposable and, in the end, will contribute absolutely nothing to the mythos of Transformers. The only reason it is there is to sell Optimus and Bumblebee toys and it's even failing at that. The success of the first decade of Marvel movies was that they built towards an inevitable climax (the "Portals" scene...I still get chills when I watch it). This is piecemeal, and eminently ignorable. There is no build. There is nothing going forward, they aren't writing towards some long term climax. It's just...there. If the goal is to build brand recognition, then I'm not even sure they are doing that because of the lack of availability to watch.

If you want success evaluation, TelevisionStats.com has it listed 800 spots below Golden Girls reruns, the original Law and Order reruns, and 750 spots below Family Matters reruns. The show's engagement score is 0.59. By contrast, the number 1 show right now, X-Men 97, has an engagement score of 57.2 If there were still only the normal number of cable networks, this show wouldn't have have even MADE it to season 2, let alone season 3. In order to make the top 200, you need a score of 2.93. It barely makes the top 1000, let alone the top 200 and has NEVER peaked into the top 500. That's failure.

Part of that too is that X-men 97 was a damn good show that also ran on probably the #1 streaming service. Earthspark is good, but not damn good, if you will.

I would be curious on Televisionstats, if there is any correlation to streaming services and scores. Even if Earthspark was on Netflix, I think there would be more traction

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:

First-Aid wrote:

D-Maximal_Primal wrote: It just feels like it was always meant to be lowly advertised and just run its course

This is it, exactly. The show is disposable and, in the end, will contribute absolutely nothing to the mythos of Transformers. The only reason it is there is to sell Optimus and Bumblebee toys and it's even failing at that. The success of the first decade of Marvel movies was that they built towards an inevitable climax (the "Portals" scene...I still get chills when I watch it). This is piecemeal, and eminently ignorable. There is no build. There is nothing going forward, they aren't writing towards some long term climax. It's just...there. If the goal is to build brand recognition, then I'm not even sure they are doing that because of the lack of availability to watch.

If you want success evaluation, TelevisionStats.com has it listed 800 spots below Golden Girls reruns, the original Law and Order reruns, and 750 spots below Family Matters reruns. The show's engagement score is 0.59. By contrast, the number 1 show right now, X-Men 97, has an engagement score of 57.2 If there were still only the normal number of cable networks, this show wouldn't have have even MADE it to season 2, let alone season 3. In order to make the top 200, you need a score of 2.93. It barely makes the top 1000, let alone the top 200 and has NEVER peaked into the top 500. That's failure.

Part of that too is that X-men 97 was a damn good show that also ran on probably the #1 streaming service. Earthspark is good, but not damn good, if you will.

I would be curious on Televisionstats, if there is any correlation to streaming services and scores. Even if Earthspark was on Netflix, I think there would be more traction

Paramount+ is a surprisingly highly rated streaming service. Number 1 is Netflix followed by Prime. Paramount is 13th. So, even being a top 15 streaming service doesn't appear to be helping the show. Incidentally, YouTube is 35th on the list. Being on Netflix might help, but honestly, if you are getting beat out by 40 year old Golden Girls and Family Matters reruns that's NOT a good sign for the quality and popularity of your show. Fun fact...ROTB is just a tad out of the top 200. So even THAT beats Earthspark handily. The original TF:TM peaked at 232 in April.

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:I would be curious on Televisionstats, if there is any correlation to streaming services and scores. Even if Earthspark was on Netflix, I think there would be more traction

o.supreme wrote:

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:I would be curious on Televisionstats, if there is any correlation to streaming services and scores. Even if Earthspark was on Netflix, I think there would be more traction

It's interesting that it peaked in May 2023, the middle part of season 1 released in March, and the last part in late July, and funny thing is, Nickelodeon aired the season 1 finale 9 months after paramount.

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:It's interesting that it peaked in May 2023, the middle part of season 1 released in March, and the last part in late July, and funny thing is, Nickelodeon aired the season 1 finale 9 months after paramount.

Yeah, Nick aired the last batch of episodes even AFTER they were released on DVD in North America:

transformers-earthspark-show-discussion-thread-t116145s775.php

The spike last May unfortunately was related to the controversy that has been referenced previously. I mean, I am admittedly not a fan of the show. But like all things. I respect that others are allowed to enjoy it, just as I am permitted not to. I don't wish the show ill will (I haven't wished any TF show to actively go away, no matter my level of interest), just reporting objectively what's going on.

I've largely avoided discussion on Earthspark. Largely because I only watched the pilot on YouTube and have no real interest in buying further into the streaming service model. Yet reading this thread has been fascinating.

First point to make, I believe Rescue Bots is the longest running Transformers series. Supplanting Beast Wars' prior top spot. The shortest was Car Robots, at one season. Somewhere between RB and CR is the standard every other show achieves.

Secondly, animation is expensive. CG animation is expensive. Shows like Young Justice should have demonstrated that toys aren't a practical metric for gauging a show's engagement in modern times. Toys aren't the most widespread form of entertainment for kids anymore. But sadly, that lesson still falls on deaf ears.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:First point to make, I believe Rescue Bots is the longest running Transformers series. Supplanting Beast Wars' prior top spot.

Beast Wars only had 52 episodes, the same number as Armada, Energon, and Cybertron. G1 was the longest series at 98 episodes before both Rescue Bots and Rescue Bots Acadmay overtook it with 104 episodes each. And even then, Prime, RID 2015, and Cyberverse all had more episodes than Beast Wars, being 68, 71, and 70, respectively.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:The shortest was Car Robots, at one season.

The shortest was Zone, being a single episode. And even then, several one-season shows have had fewer episodes that Car Robots's 39:

• The Headmasters: 38
• Beast Wars Neo: 35
• Go-Bots: 4
• RobotMasters: 2
• Cyber Missions: 13
• Go!: 10
• Portal: 13
• BotBots: 10 (20 individual segments)

And even some multi-season shows were shorter:

• Beast Machines: 2 seasons, 26 episodes
• Q-Transforers: 2 seasons, 26 episodes
• Prime Wars Trilogy: 3 seasons, 28 episodes
• War For Cybertron Trilogy: 3 seasons, 18 episodes

darn, Sabre beat me with the stats....

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Secondly, animation is expensive. CG animation is expensive. Shows like Young Justice should have demonstrated that toys aren't a practical metric for gauging a show's engagement in modern times. Toys aren't the most widespread form of entertainment for kids anymore. But sadly, that lesson still falls on deaf ears.

But anyway, while I agree toy sales (or lack thereof), should not be the metric to determine the success/fate of a TV show. I don't think that's the case here. This isn't 2002-2012 CN that was killing good shows Left and Right. While I don't think the toys are selling especially well, I'm pretty sure the decision to cancel and move on (if in fact that is what's happening), has mostly to do with the sale of eOne, and the desire not to make any further episodes after what was contracted from the beginning.

Yeah, the Entertainment One sale has been no one any favors.

Earthspark had the creepiest faces in TF history. Plus the californianisation of the whole thing was cringe. So maybe these contributed to the low viewership of that series. And if this resulted in lower than expected toy sales, this will be the final nail in that coffin.

My expectations are very low for the next show, but I have a sneaky suspicion that TF1 will continue as a TV series.

o.supreme wrote:darn, Sabre beat me with the stats....

I knew I should have chosen my words better, in hindsight. Before the pedantry started. Beast Era, not just denoting it all as Beast Wars.

o.supreme wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Secondly, animation is expensive. CG animation is expensive. Shows like Young Justice should have demonstrated that toys aren't a practical metric for gauging a show's engagement in modern times. Toys aren't the most widespread form of entertainment for kids anymore. But sadly, that lesson still falls on deaf ears.

But anyway, while I agree toy sales (or lack thereof), should not be the metric to determine the success/fate of a TV show. I don't think that's the case here. This isn't 2002-2012 CN that was killing good shows Left and Right. While I don't think the toys are selling especially well, I'm pretty sure the decision to cancel and move on (if in fact that is what's happening), has mostly to do with the sale of eOne, and the desire not to make any further episodes after what was contracted from the beginning.

It's a moot point. But if this was aired on a network and not a superfluous streaming service. What kinds of figures it might have garnered.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I knew I should have chosen my words better, in hindsight. Before the pedantry started. Beast Era, not just denoting it all as Beast Wars.

By that same logic the Unicron Trilogy still has more with its combined episode total being 156, compared to Beast Wars and Beast Machines totaling out to 78, which is also still twenty episodes less than the G1 cartoon on its own.

Glyph wrote:>:oP
Yes, that is definitely what is happening, A+ take, excellent commentary.

$160 billion for Disney alone over the last three years. They can't take the punishment much longer.

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:

o.supreme wrote:

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:I would be curious on Televisionstats, if there is any correlation to streaming services and scores. Even if Earthspark was on Netflix, I think there would be more traction

It's interesting that it peaked in May 2023, the middle part of season 1 released in March, and the last part in late July, and funny thing is, Nickelodeon aired the season 1 finale 9 months after paramount.

I noticed that too. The only thing I can think of is that there must have been some news stories focused on it that the news lemmings followed to the show.

Sorry but I'm kind of happy it's over. I didn't like the designs, the show isn't for me (I laughed my ass of with Cyberverse and loved it). And I didn't like that nickelodeon charm (look up all the grooming etc.)

I hope they do better with the next cartoon.

Also don't go in the Netflix/Machinema direction, that show was written by an AI run on a PS2 with it's humor chip removed. My god it was aweful yet the animation (models/textures and movement) was awesome.

But first, Transformers One!

I'm not bothered by this. The show, the line, feels like a blip.

In a world where streamers drop shows the same time worldwide, P+ delayed it by weeks in Australia. Australia only got the first B.A.F. wave and not much else.
-edit- Apparently other waves were just released, picked up all but Shockwave.

Bit hard to miss something that was barely there.

Isn't this also pretty much par for the course at this point? That we know going in which season of which TF cartoon is going to be its last one?

We knew ahead of time that Season 3 would be the final season of Animated.

We knew ahead of time that Season 3 would be the final season of Prime (Predacons Rising as an epilogue was a nice surprise, but it wasn't a full new season)

We knew ahead of time that Season 4 would be the final season of Rescue Bots.

We knew ahead of time that Season 3 would be the final season of Robots in Disguise 2015.

We knew ahead of time that Season 3 would be the final full season of Cyberverse (Season 4 came as a nice surprise, but was only two epilogue specials rather than another full season).

We knew that each part of the Prime Wars Trilogy and War For Cybertron Trilogy would be getting one season of their own, so we knew each would end with Power of the Primes and Kingdom, respectively.

Going even further back, we kinda knew Armada, Energon, and Cybertron would each be one season, since Hasbro kept announcing the following year's next toyline franchise with a new name.

Car Robots had already ended in Japan by the time Robots in Disguise 2001 started airing, so it was known to only have one season, too.

And even farther back, online sources made it known in advance that season 3 would be the final season of Beast Wars, and Season 2 would be the final season of Beast Machines.

I think the only western TF cartoons that we didn't already know were going to end when they did were:

• the G1 cartoon (the Internet didn't exist at the time, so that kind of online correspondence between creatives and fandoms didn't exist yet)
• Rescue Bots Academy (it was still up in the air, even to the creatives, as to whether or not it would be renewed for another season after its second season)
• BotBots (same situation as RBA, it wasn't yet known to the creatives if the show would be renewed for another season after its first one)

I think a few have mentioned Paramount+ but do we remember that at first Earthspark was supposed to stream there exclusively? I didn't hear a word about Nickelodeon until much later, probably when I saw the episodes up on demand. I knew it would have an uphill climb since not a lot of people use the plus.

Ik people said that shows like TFP or Animated ended sooner than intended, but I can at least say they were able to make their finales not feel rushed. I have a chance Earthspark's ending will probably be more like RID15's where it's a case of "they have more adventures off-screen", but who even knows at this point.