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ScottyP wrote:

Rtron wrote:
Lol, that last paragraph is why I never get the obsession with precise scale, specially when it comes to G1 toys. The show and comics themselves didn't have any scale beyond "this guy is USUALLY bigger than this other guy, and how much taller he is will change scene to scene". I get there's charts and stuff, but evidently those were barely followed in practice.

Yeah scale can be fun, but vibes > scale probably matters more once we start getting into extremes like Combiners.

Actually he SHOULD scale well with the Dinobots. If you really want to nitpick, Megatron in bot mode comes to about the waistline (maybe a bit lower). When Dev is on the ground, Slag is nearly as long as Devs is tall. Sludge IS that tall. That makes the CW version TOO BIG for "proper" scale from the 86 movie. 12-13 inches is about right.

I'm thinking If they do add some minor retooling to Kingdom Rodimus for SS86 it'll be entirely in the figure since the trailer really doesn't need any changes. I think changing the head to be more like the cartoon, the backpack so it blends better stylistically with with the trailer and a more cartoon-like back wing. I think some of the greebling like on the arms and legs can be overlooked.

About the Constructicons and Dinobots, I'm not concerned about the scale since, if what TFSource said is actually true, this is the scale they're going for:



Anybody got Sludge and Legacy Menasor handy?

Emerje

Emerje wrote:I'm thinking If they do add some minor retooling to Kingdom Rodimus for SS86 it'll be entirely in the figure since the trailer really doesn't need any changes. I think changing the head to be more like the cartoon, the backpack so it blends better stylistically with with the trailer and a more cartoon-like back wing. I think some of the greebling like on the arms and legs can be overlooked.

About the Constructicons and Dinobots, I'm not concerned about the scale since, if what TFSource said is actually true, this is the scale they're going for:



Anybody got Sludge and Legacy Menasor handy?

Emerje

Don't mind the minor mess in the background. Anyway, I personally wish all the combiner's were closer to POTP Predaking's size, but that's neither here or there. Speaking solely on Devestator, as long as he's even a tiny bit taller than Menasor, I think the scale as pictured should work just fine.

Slashercon wrote:I personally wish all the combiner's were closer to POTP Predaking's size, but that's neither here or there. Speaking solely on Devestator, as long as he's even a tiny bit taller than Menasor, I think the scale as pictured should work just fine.

Scale has always been tricky with TF's. I think when CW came out in 2015, the scale of the Combiners was a fair representation of the time. Hoever since WFC things have started upscaling. Minibots & Insecticons for instance that were once Legends/Core class are now deluxes. Many characters previously scaled as Deluxe are now Voyagers etc.... So NOW a decade later CW/UW Dev & PotP Predaking are more in-line with the modern take, then they were when they were first released....

However as someone who owns all the Combiners from the CW/UW/PotP era (30+) I'm not about to throw all that away. I was almost certain SS86 Dev was going to be as big or BIGGER than CW/UW (its certainly more expensive ). If anything I might get SS86 if its basically the same size as Legacy Menasor, then I can finally replace the KO CW Dev I've had for the past few years. Id still want a Predaking at that 12-14 inch scale, but first things first (Id also want all the unmade combiners in my wish list at that scale as well)

First-Aid wrote:

ScottyP wrote:

Rtron wrote:
Lol, that last paragraph is why I never get the obsession with precise scale, specially when it comes to G1 toys. The show and comics themselves didn't have any scale beyond "this guy is USUALLY bigger than this other guy, and how much taller he is will change scene to scene". I get there's charts and stuff, but evidently those were barely followed in practice.

Yeah scale can be fun, but vibes > scale probably matters more once we start getting into extremes like Combiners.

Actually he SHOULD scale well with the Dinobots. If you really want to nitpick, Megatron in bot mode comes to about the waistline (maybe a bit lower). When Dev is on the ground, Slag is nearly as long as Devs is tall. Sludge IS that tall. That makes the CW version TOO BIG for "proper" scale from the 86 movie. 12-13 inches is about right.

I don't think you're looking at the scenes and the perspective quite right... Megatron is not close to Devy's waistline (neither is any other Decepticon); it's that Megatron is closer to the foreground. There's a part where Shrapnel looks huge, but that's because he's even closer to the foreground than Megatron.
Slag only looks that large after knocking Devastator down because Devastator is sitting, and to make this look right, that means that his torso appears shorter since this is drawn from a high angle (or bird's eye view). In the drawing/2D biz we call this foreshortening.

I personally think the Dinobots have been drawn too big, and that's the mistake in these scenes.
Sure, based on the movie, a 12"-13" Devy is "correct" relative to the SS86 Dinobot figures.
But a combined form at that height is still going to be much too small compared to basically every other figure, whether it's ER Starscream, Legacy Soundwave, or even any of the minibots.
Most voyagers at 6.5" would reach Devastator's waist if he's 12"-13", making him too small. In the movie and in the character scale charts, even OP and Megatron only reach the top of Devy's lower leg.
For me, the CW version does scale really nicely with the mainline figures. Unfortunately, that height isn't going to happen with this SS86 version. I highly doubt he's going to be more than 2 inches taller than Legacy Menasor. I mean I hope he is, but I believe that's wishful thinking.

I know one of the focuses of SS86 is scale, but of course it's not always happening as well as most would like. Look at Arcee being so small.. Actually I'd say Hot Rod, Kup, and Blurr are also too small. And Ultra Magnus is too big.
I knew CC Prime would be bigger than the ER figure, but I thought Hastak would make SS86 Springer match this since he's supposed to be a beefcake and just about as big as OP.
Back to Devy, assuming he's done really well, including the individual figures, I'll be very okay if the combined form is a bit small.

My, how the tables have turned.

When CW Devastator came out, people complained that he was too big and out of scale with all of the other Combiners.

Now that we get word of this SS86 Devastator being in scale with his fellow Combiners, people are saying that he should be much bigger than them.

Sabrblade wrote:My, how the tables have turned.

When CW Devastator came out, people complained that he was too big and out of scale with all of the other Combiners.

Now that we get word of this SS86 Devastator being in scale with his fellow Combiners, people are saying that he should be much bigger than them.

Because SS86 is supposed to represent the TF:TM version, which needs to scale to the Dinobots mainly. I know we'll never get a big enough Astrotrain to fit everyone into, but if there are characters made using the SS86 label, at least make them accurate to the screen characters they supposed to represent.

Personally, I liked CW Devy as he was, and I did move him to my TF:TM shelf as he scales well with the Dinobots and hopefully in the future with Megatron. This new Devastator will move over to my comics shelf and will represent the Marvel version, Even though he was quite gigantic in there as well.

I'm glad we're getting this new set, I just don't believe he should be labeled SS86. We could have gotten a CW rerelease in SS86 packaging and it would have been fine. Either as individual releases or the 1st SS86 Titan. Or maybe give us the UW version, which comes with the individual weapons and better deco. Either way, that Devastator goes for crazy prices on the 2ndary market and a reissue would've helped out a lot of fans.

The thing about the combiners in the G1 cartoon is that they were all larger than the sum of their individual parts. All six individual Constructicons were smaller than Optimus Prime in their robot modes, yet just one of Devastator's hands was large enough to fully wrap all five fingers around the lower half of Optimus's body.



In other words, the Combiners were all size-changers, which is something that is impossible to replicate in toy form due to the Law of Conservation of Mass.

Damnation....since I plan to pick up OP I think I may need to part ways with ALL my leader class Primes. No doubt we will get some repaints from our '86 guy.

I for one am not a fan that collects every figure under the sun so we'll see what comes after the figures release.

Sabrblade wrote:The thing about the combiners in the G1 cartoon is that they were all larger than the sum of their individual parts. All six individual Constructicons were smaller than Optimus Prime in their robot modes, yet just one of Devastator's hands was large enough to fully wrap all five fingers around the lower half of Optimus's body.



In other words, the Combiners were all size-changers, which is something that is impossible to replicate in toy form due to the Law of Conservation of Mass.

I hate to say it, but even as a kid that bugged me. WHile the ideas of combiners are awesome, the scale and realism were thrown to the wind. How big would Predaking be if the animals were realistically scaled? Good grief, he'd barely reach Prime's height. SUperion vs Menasor? No contest. The average size of the fighters making up Superion are ALL larger than Motormaster's vehicle mode. Interestingly, Silverbolt actually scales well to the other jets in the Aerialbots (the Concorde was over 200 feet long, about three times the length of the other planes which is about what the toy was). Make a combiner out of those and Menasor- with Motormaster's vehicle length of 54 feet and resultant tiny combined size- would be pounded into paste in a hurry by an Autobot monster. The worst offender though is Bruticus. Brawl should easily be twice the size of Swindle and just a little smaller than Vortex. Onslaught could conceivably be semi sized (mid 50 foot length) but...Blast-off? The space shuttle was over 122 feet long, and he made a LIMB? He's longer than Brawl, Swindle, and Onslaught combined (no pun intended...)!

I know...cartoon...suspension of disbelief...defying physics...selling toys...blah blah blah. It still bugs me. I SOOOO want a line focused on the realism and scale of the alt modes (expanded version of Alternators with reduced size) rather than scaling to the bot mode height and making the vehicles fit. The Seekers would be truly powerful as they would be so much bigger than the Autobots, making the Dinobots necessary to match the size. Grimlock in dino mode would be about the same length as a Seeker...(sigh)....I'm going to continue to dream, I guess.

First-Aid wrote:The worst offender though is Bruticus. Brawl should easily be twice the size of Swindle and just a little smaller than Vortex. Onslaught could conceivably be semi sized (mid 50 foot length) but...Blast-off? The space shuttle was over 122 feet long, and he made a LIMB? He's longer than Brawl, Swindle, and Onslaught combined (no pun intended...)!

Sabrblade wrote:My, how the tables have turned.

When CW Devastator came out, people complained that he was too big and out of scale with all of the other Combiners.

Now that we get word of this SS86 Devastator being in scale with his fellow Combiners, people are saying that he should be much bigger than them.

i have said this the whole time, at least for me, the tables have still not turned.

And that said, I prefer to prioritize combiner size, not individuals

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:The thing about the combiners in the G1 cartoon is that they were all larger than the sum of their individual parts. All six individual Constructicons were smaller than Optimus Prime in their robot modes, yet just one of Devastator's hands was large enough to fully wrap all five fingers around the lower half of Optimus's body.



In other words, the Combiners were all size-changers, which is something that is impossible to replicate in toy form due to the Law of Conservation of Mass.

I hate to say it, but even as a kid that bugged me. WHile the ideas of combiners are awesome, the scale and realism were thrown to the wind. How big would Predaking be if the animals were realistically scaled? Good grief, he'd barely reach Prime's height. SUperion vs Menasor? No contest. The average size of the fighters making up Superion are ALL larger than Motormaster's vehicle mode. Interestingly, Silverbolt actually scales well to the other jets in the Aerialbots (the Concorde was over 200 feet long, about three times the length of the other planes which is about what the toy was). Make a combiner out of those and Menasor- with Motormaster's vehicle length of 54 feet and resultant tiny combined size- would be pounded into paste in a hurry by an Autobot monster. The worst offender though is Bruticus. Brawl should easily be twice the size of Swindle and just a little smaller than Vortex. Onslaught could conceivably be semi sized (mid 50 foot length) but...Blast-off? The space shuttle was over 122 feet long, and he made a LIMB? He's longer than Brawl, Swindle, and Onslaught combined (no pun intended...)!

I know...cartoon...suspension of disbelief...defying physics...selling toys...blah blah blah. It still bugs me. I SOOOO want a line focused on the realism and scale of the alt modes (expanded version of Alternators with reduced size) rather than scaling to the bot mode height and making the vehicles fit. The Seekers would be truly powerful as they would be so much bigger than the Autobots, making the Dinobots necessary to match the size. Grimlock in dino mode would be about the same length as a Seeker...(sigh)....I'm going to continue to dream, I guess.

Alternators with more varied vehicles would be so cool. But it would require Hasbro to make new character designs, and they don't seem to be fond of that right now.

I've never liked CW Devestator's size. I have a couple 3P Devy's to stand with the others. I also have UW Devy, but didn't really like him in hand. So I like that we're getting a new, official Devestator.

Cars should all be deluxes, so Menasor sets the standard.

Sabrblade wrote:My, how the tables have turned.

When CW Devastator came out, people complained that he was too big and out of scale with all of the other Combiners.

Now that we get word of this SS86 Devastator being in scale with his fellow Combiners, people are saying that he should be much bigger than them.

But keep in mind these are two different things...
Because I would probably say both- CW Devy scales well with the mainline figures, which is pretty cool (and I do appreciate how imposing he is).
And yet, I also would've liked it if he scaled better with the other combiners.
For me, the first aspect is what I like and prefer.
It's not necessarily that people want want Devy bigger than the other combiners; it's more that people want him bigger so he scales well with all of the non-combiner figures.

I think it's great that Hastak made the CW version a titan class release. And now, if that never happens again, most people can be okay with it, or at least understand why it's not happening again. At that size if this set was going to be improved, it would be expensive and probably have to be a Haslab Project.
In fact it wasn't that long ago, I was talking with a friend and speculated that the next one would be a huge Devastator that would scale with MP figures. But I'm glad I was wrong; price and collection space most likely would've caused me to miss out, and because this is my favorite combiner, relatively speaking, the sting would've been intense.

I did want to share my thoughts on Swoop.
Starting with the nit-picks...
I do understand why they made this figure smaller than the rest, and overall, this doesn't bother me much. However it does just slightly because imo it is clear that this was in the budget... His wings may be deceiving in terms of the amount of plastic that was used, however, it still seems to me that this was possible. Not to mention, adding height could have been done by adding roughly an inch (probably a little less) to his legs. Swoop is the one Dinobot that can get away with looking a bit more trim... He's not a huge brute like a few of the others, so longer legs would've played into this. Also, this wouldn't have changed much for the Dino mode.
I'm not at all saying that all of these critiques could have been addressed, but a couple others-- at this price point I still think forearm covers could and should have been included.
Next, I do think the wings could have been slightly larger in terms of wingspan, along with another hinge for even more articulation.
Lastly, and this is the least of my nit-picks; the crest crest/peak of the head should have been angle back at least a little bit... In dino mode it's too vertical.

Despite all of that, I still truly appreciate and love this figure.
I'm sure a few people who post here are completely sick of me, including hearing my speculations and my rants about how long it's taken to get these five figures. When my two copies of Swoop arrived, it was truly a glorious day in my realm of collecting.
Swoop was the last figure on my main "wanted" list. Everything else is just icing now. Don't get me wrong, there's stuff left:
SS86 Optimus, Galvatron, Megatron, the Constructicons... But if none of these were happening, I'd be able to "retire" and be completely happy and content.
I'm not going to list off all of the positives about this figure...
But one highlight that I always look for and greatly appreciate is how well the face and head sculpt have been done. For me, it's such an important element/facet.
And lastly, as I predicted, here's a couple rankings:
In terms of the actual figures:
1: Grimlock
2: Snarl
3: Swoop
4: Slag
5: Sludge

In terms of my own preferences:
1: Snarl & Swoop
2: Grimlock
3: Slag and Sludge

I love all five... Of my main line figures, these are the highlight of my collection. Despite my nit-picks with each, Hastak has hit a sweet spot with these guys.
Swoop is my figure of the year, although it will be interesting to see if SS86 Optimus can take this title.

I absolutely love looking at these shelves:

Pretty much what I said in my post. When CW first came out in 2015, Generations figures were often scaled smaller. (Except for the Leader class which was just kind of all over the place... ) Combiners were an ok size (not perfect, but still imposing). In the past decade however Generations has "scaled up" so that CW/UW Dev fits more accurately, especially with SS86.

But make no mistake, like I've always said. I love my UW Dev. He's perfect on the shelf next to Siege Omega Supreme. This new SS86 Dev will *hopefully* scale closer to the older Generations Combiners, and that's fine. Again, I can replace my CW scaled down KO Dev.

I have a had a few days with Swoop and Springer and they are both awesome. Swoop is damn near perfect. My only real complaint/nitpick is that the dino head can't look side to side(unless I missed something). Usually I dont fall for the "buy figure, only for better version release 6 months later", but this one was too much better and I had to. Springer is a top 5 character for me. I would have preferred if they had left off a few accessories and filled in the top of the chest around the neck. He doesn't look great from any above angle, a true nitpick, hehe.

On the subject of 86 Devy; I think CW/UW Devy for combined mode and prolly the 86 one for individual Contructicons for near perfect scale. Or a best as. I love new Menasor(mine is 1.5 inches or so taller from add-on kit) scale, but at the same time I prefer my Titan Predaking. To me its ok to have different scaled/tall combiners, depending on alt modes size, individual bot mode sizes,etc. Devastator is another, with Predaking, that I like to be a bit taller combined. With the Predacons I also like how they size closer to the Dinobots. Where the Constructicons in their bot modes are smaller, like I said earlier.


EDIT: Oh, also I just watched PvP review on SS86 Optimus and I am very pleased to see he scales perfect with new Galvatron(and hopefully Super Megatron).

Rtron wrote:

Alternators with more varied vehicles would be so cool. But it would require Hasbro to make new character designs, and they don't seem to be fond of that right now.

Exactly. The Dream Star Aerialbots, though extremely complicated, are a great example of what could be done. The colors are there to identify the bots (as well as the faces), but it's only in specific, non-obtrusive spots and it's the vehicle mode that they focused on. The result is totally badass. The colors of a lot of the altmodes and the colors of the characters (yes, I know...aimed at kids) made no sense (purple space shuttle, white Harrier jet, orange and black eagle, gunmetal and gold dinosaurs, purple and black insects) especially considering the whole "Robots in Disguise" thing (nothing says "I'm in disguise" like a T-rex in downtown New York).

First-Aid wrote:gunmetal and gold dinosaurs, purple and black insects) especially considering the whole "Robots in Disguise" thing (nothing says "I'm in disguise" like a T-rex in downtown New York).

In these particular cases, the Dinobots and Insections go back to their Diaclone roots as nonliving mechs piloted by humans (Dinosaur Robo) and aliens (Insecter Robo). Disguise wasn't a factor in the open human vs. alien war of Diaclone.

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:gunmetal and gold dinosaurs, purple and black insects) especially considering the whole "Robots in Disguise" thing (nothing says "I'm in disguise" like a T-rex in downtown New York).

In these particular cases, the Dinobots and Insections go back to their Diaclone roots as nonliving mechs piloted by humans (Dinosaur Robo) and aliens (Insecter Robo). Disguise wasn't a factor in the open human vs. alien war of Diaclone.

Totally get that. But Transformers was different. They were SUPPOSED to be in disguise. That's what the little robotic voice said every single episode and every commercial. I'd love to see TRUE disguises. The Bay movies did a few things right (soundtrack, explosions, big explosions). The alt modes were true disguises but managed to fit the characters. Bee's yellow didn't look out of place (let's ignore the Dinobots there). Even Beast Wars was screwy (Barneytron). I'd like to see TRUE disguises.

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:gunmetal and gold dinosaurs, purple and black insects) especially considering the whole "Robots in Disguise" thing (nothing says "I'm in disguise" like a T-rex in downtown New York).

In these particular cases, the Dinobots and Insections go back to their Diaclone roots as nonliving mechs piloted by humans (Dinosaur Robo) and aliens (Insecter Robo). Disguise wasn't a factor in the open human vs. alien war of Diaclone.

Totally get that. But Transformers was different. They were SUPPOSED to be in disguise.

Yet, the cartoon mostly did away with that, having them all be known public figures walking around in the open in robot mode, directly interacting with major human figures and authorities, and even participating in public events like parades and such.

The Marvel comics attempted to keep the disguises going by having the Dinobots hang back and more often only go on missions that weren't out in the open or in populated sectors (though, one mission to Japan saw their dino modes mistaken by the Japanese for animatronic attractions), and having the Insecticons size-change to shrink down to actual insect size in their altmodes.

As for the Predacons, they just didn't care who saw them in either version, as they were all "kill 'em first, ask questions never" kinds of brutes.

Studio Series 86 Commander Class Optimus Prime was released in Hong Kong recently to anyone who attended their show. While some fans got their hands on them, that also meant some resellers could make a pretty penny selling theirs to reviewers wanting a first look. And that's how we got the review below, from Prime vs Prime. We also have a slew of in hand images showing off scale and poseability from Nathan and Shane, who posted on the Botposting Facebook group.

I WANT THE PIANO!

First-Aid wrote:I WANT THE PIANO!

Agreed. Even if it's not a portent of the TARGET: 2006 pianoformer getting an official toy, its regular appearances in these reviews make it feel like a recurring character in its own right. Legacy Baby-Grand?

Op raising it up to finish Megatron reminds me of a Toyfare Magazine fantasy battle where Palisades Dr. Teeth was about to use his keyboard to do the same to Dr. Mindbender.

While I'm on the fence about SS'86 Commander Optimus Prime in lot of ways, the last 2 pics just make me hope more than anything that we get another batch of Commander Ultra Magnus.