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These posts just keep getting longer, so I'm not going to quote the whole post again for the sake of not subjecting people to a novel. That being said:

Still don't see what this Botcon/Hasbro going back on their word argument has to do with this conversation.

Your point wasn't "missed", it just isn't agreed with.

You're still ignoring/not listening to the two main points of my counterargument:
1. The G1 figures in Kingdom and the SS86 figures were meant to be the same line (which we all agree on), which means that they all have to have been designed at the same time in order to release together, and since we know that Hasbro plans line contents and starts design work in advance based on how early things keep leaking, the only way there could be a different design aesthetic/mentality behind any of the 2021 SS86 figures compared to the WFC figures they were supposed to release with would be if Hasbro actively scrapped the design work they had done on the figures going to SS86 and started over again to use the new aesthetic....which it seems like they clearly didn't, judging by figures like the Dinobots, Jazz, & Scourge/Sweep.
2. Individual SS86 & WFC figures having a different amount of molded detailing compared to each other doesn't prove that they were somehow designed differently, because the amount of molded detailing present on individual figures has been inconsistent for the ENTIRETY of WFC, even within individual waves.
Look at Siege: Chromia has more detailing than Starscream who has more detailing than Soundwave who has more detailing than Prowl.
Look at Earthrise: Ironworks has more detailing than Starscream who has more detailing than Grapple who has more detailing than Cliffjumper.
Look at Kingdom/SS86: Warpath has more detailing than Scourge who has more detailing than Jazz who has more detailing than Cyclonus.
Compare the different segments of WFC even: Siege Screamer has more detailing than ER Screamer who has more detailing than Kingdom/SS86 Cyclonus, yes, but Cyclonus also has more detailing than ER Cliffjumper who has more detailing than Siege Sideswipe.
That's not actually a different aesthetic at all, that's just a difference in detail on a per-figure basis, which is therefore consistent.

Also, repeatedly ending these posts with "it doesn't actually matter" and then continuing to argue about it is a contradiction. Clearly you do care, otherwise you wouldn't keep bringing it up and fighting this uphill battle, so I don't understand why you keep throwing that in at the end.

Nemesis Primal wrote:1. The G1 figures in Kingdom and the SS86 figures were meant to be the same line (which we all agree on), which means that they all have to have been designed at the same time in order to release together, and since we know that Hasbro plans line contents and starts design work in advance based on how early things keep leaking, the only way there could be a different design aesthetic/mentality behind any of the 2021 SS86 figures compared to the WFC figures they were supposed to release with would be if Hasbro actively scrapped the design work they had done on the figures going to SS86 and started over again to use the new aesthetic....which it seems like they clearly didn't, judging by figures like the Dinobots, Jazz, & Scourge/Sweep.

Which brings me to asking this: WHEN in the design process did the split happen? Early enough for some of the preliminary detail work in the sketches to be smoothed out for SS86 when reassigned?

Sowndwave76 wrote:Sure, the prototype shown in the screenshot I saw maybe didn't actually show proposed changes. There's no way of knowing. It's just interesting, then why was any of it a different colored plastic?
I guess because the shoulders were retooled and that affected other parts?

It's a good point and something I had wondered as well. I have no answer for you.

Jelze Bunnycat wrote:

Nemesis Primal wrote:1. The G1 figures in Kingdom and the SS86 figures were meant to be the same line (which we all agree on), which means that they all have to have been designed at the same time in order to release together, and since we know that Hasbro plans line contents and starts design work in advance based on how early things keep leaking, the only way there could be a different design aesthetic/mentality behind any of the 2021 SS86 figures compared to the WFC figures they were supposed to release with would be if Hasbro actively scrapped the design work they had done on the figures going to SS86 and started over again to use the new aesthetic....which it seems like they clearly didn't, judging by figures like the Dinobots, Jazz, & Scourge/Sweep.

Which brings me to asking this: WHEN in the design process did the split happen? Early enough for some of the preliminary detail work in the sketches to be smoothed out for SS86 when reassigned?

We don't have an explicit answer for this timeline, so that is theoretically possible, but if they did intentionally decide to do that and had the time to do so (and assuming I believed that to be the case), then my question becomes why did they not do it for ALL of them? I just don't see why they would go through the effort to implement a change like that for only some of the Deluxes and Voyagers but NOT apply it to the Dinobots (who already stick out by size and would therefore make the discrepancy more noticeable), other than the lack of consistency itself actually being consistent with WFC and therefore not a change/"new aesthetic" at all.

Jelze Bunnycat wrote:

Nemesis Primal wrote:1. The G1 figures in Kingdom and the SS86 figures were meant to be the same line (which we all agree on), which means that they all have to have been designed at the same time in order to release together, and since we know that Hasbro plans line contents and starts design work in advance based on how early things keep leaking, the only way there could be a different design aesthetic/mentality behind any of the 2021 SS86 figures compared to the WFC figures they were supposed to release with would be if Hasbro actively scrapped the design work they had done on the figures going to SS86 and started over again to use the new aesthetic....which it seems like they clearly didn't, judging by figures like the Dinobots, Jazz, & Scourge/Sweep.

Which brings me to asking this: WHEN in the design process did the split happen? Early enough for some of the preliminary detail work in the sketches to be smoothed out for SS86 when reassigned?

All of those comparisons and any others still don't mean any of the SS86 figures I've mentioned (again, not the Dinobots) have as much molded detail as any of those others.
So thanks for adding to my point.

That along with saying Hastak has been inconsistent... Yeah, there's a chance that an inconsistency is "accidental". No doubt. I'll even stretch that a little and say "accidental" meaning a shift in the plan for a line potentially changes time frames and thus, the release schedule for specific figures. But with that list you just provided, there's no way all of those differences were accidents.
So if any of that was intentional, then as Jelze just said, the "smoothing" or smoothed-out appearance for SS86 was by no means an "accidental" or unintentional change.


When I said "I didn't care", and especially "It doesn't matter very much", I was referring to the differences in the look of these figures, as well as whether or not someone can actually recognize them.
Obviously I've cared about making my points. Not sure why you would point that out now...
But you have missed stuff from my posts. Either that, or you don't have legit answers for all of them.
But now I really am done with this conversation.



Jelze, I know you don't mind a bit of speculation, so I'll throw this out there...
Isn't there just a chance that the SS86 figures I mentioned were actually planned for something outside of the Kingdom line??
This example is different, because they were just repaints... But I think about 35th Anniversary OP, Megs, and Soundblaster... Were there any others in that packaging??
But aren't there plenty of G1 characters that could've been placed into Kingdom?
Not to mention, the last wave of Kingdom figures, could've been bumped-up schedule-wise, and this 5th wave just would've been the 4th and final?
It doesn't seem super intentional that the last wave of Kingdom is what we're getting at the start of a calendar year...

But SS86 (under maybe a different name) could've been a small, celebratory line:
Leader: Galvatron
Voyagers: Cyclonus and Hot Rod (and maybe Springer?)
Deluxes: Kup, Blurr, Scourge
With all new molds, I guess you wouldn't want these to be a store exclusive line...


Anyway, just thinking about that since your question is really legit...
When did the change in aesthetics happen???
-OR-
Was there never a change in these figures' aesthetics to begin with???

These characters where never going to end up anywhere else but Kingdom for a very simple reason:

Because it was the movies anniversary year, and it was the year that HasLab Unicron descended. It was probably worked out that way on purpose (before hasbro realised that it was an anniversary for Beast Wars, one that wouldn't likely screw over again). I don't understand why you seem to need the approval that they were always different, each with their own level of detail (as Nemesis Primal said, its been inconsistent across WfC, meaning the designers have looked at the figure and decided what needed what).
If you look at the Trilogy as a whole, the third part being the movie focus, becomes crystal clear.

It's all the same to me. Yes, some figures have extra detail ('greebling'?), which I don't have a problem with because they don't look like they don't belong together.

Vis a vis closed/open boxes, i don't care. It's not actually new. Also, while the Cyberverse figures have no windows, Voyager Hot Rod's redesigned box has plastic. It's just significantly less plastic, roughly equal to Kingdom.

ZeroWolf wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:(Aaron Archer was in charge I believe when the Botcon Thundercracker happened, and of course he gave way to John Warden, who has given way to...do we know who the new guy is?).

Right after Warden it was briefly Lenny Panzica, but he apparently moved on to other things after designing a small number of Wave 1 Legacy figures, and now it's Mark Maher.

Thanks Sabrblade!

They should really only hire people with memorable names like Archer and Warden. Maybe the next person should have the name Constable or Knight.

Emerje

Serious question, how does any of this matter? Like really.
What matters is this leader Starscream release gives us the very vital info that Hasbro does currently intend these lines to be unified. So, we don't have to expect a new Prowl mold in SS86, for instance.

....Sowndwave, I feel like I'm losing understanding of your argument/logic the longer this goes on, so I'm also going to move on, but in response to your last bit:

Sowndwave76 wrote:Isn't there just a chance that the SS86 figures I mentioned were actually planned for something outside of the Kingdom line??
This example is different, because they were just repaints... But I think about 35th Anniversary OP, Megs, and Soundblaster... Were there any others in that packaging??

Bluestreak also came out that way, but those weren't a separate line from WFC/Siege, they just had the 35th thing on the packaging in addition to all of the Siege branding and being included in the WFC numbering.

Sowndwave76 wrote:Not to mention, the last wave of Kingdom figures, could've been bumped-up schedule-wise, and this 5th wave just would've been the 4th and final?
It doesn't seem super intentional that the last wave of Kingdom is what we're getting at the start of a calendar year...

Kingdom actually was going to be 4 waves when it first leaked, with Slammer and Pipes in Wave 4 with Waspinator and Shadow Panther, but the line got extended at the behest of retailers due to good sales, which caused planned Kingdom figures to get shuffled around (Slammer and Pipes) and figures that would have been coming out at the time anyway to get rebranded into Kingdom (Legacy Hot Rod and Blaster) to fill/create Wave 5. The same exact thing happened with Siege Wave 5, which saw Astrotrain, Rung, Spinister, Apeface, and the Micromasters get pulled forwards from Earthrise and Crosshairs get pulled from Selects (based on product numbers + rereleases).

Sowndwave76 wrote:But SS86 (under maybe a different name) could've been a small, celebratory line:
Leader: Galvatron
Voyagers: Cyclonus and Hot Rod (and maybe Springer?)
Deluxes: Kup, Blurr, Scourge
With all new molds, I guess you wouldn't want these to be a store exclusive line...

Just out of curiosity, who would you have wanted in Kingdom/WFC if Cyclonus and Galvatron were separate?

...I feel like I'm a tad too late to the party, but I took pics of a bunch of SS86 and WFC figures and traced over all of their greeble (considered as any detailing not on the G1 character model, alt mode detail, or parts/transformation seams). Interpret them as you will.

(Pics sourced from the Seibertron, the internet at large, and myself)

Hit an attachment limit on the previous post, so here's part 2:

Thanks Tuned Agent, that's a great help actually.

Huh, look at that, it's almost like the amount differs on a per-figure basis. Who could have foreseen this.

The yellow actually makes Cyclonus look much better. And it looks like Grimlock and Starscream got the worst of it.

Thanks for posting those, Turned Agent.
Definitely helps prove my point.

ZeroWolf wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:(Aaron Archer was in charge I believe when the Botcon Thundercracker happened, and of course he gave way to John Warden, who has given way to...do we know who the new guy is?).

Right after Warden it was briefly Lenny Panzica, but he apparently moved on to other things after designing a small number of Wave 1 Legacy figures, and now it's Mark Maher.

Thanks Sabrblade!

I wonder how these guys feel about some random shlubs knowing their names and what they do.

chuckdawg1999 wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:(Aaron Archer was in charge I believe when the Botcon Thundercracker happened, and of course he gave way to John Warden, who has given way to...do we know who the new guy is?).

Right after Warden it was briefly Lenny Panzica, but he apparently moved on to other things after designing a small number of Wave 1 Legacy figures, and now it's Mark Maher.

Thanks Sabrblade!

I wonder how these guys feel about some random shlubs knowing their names and what they do.

I suppose it depends on what kind of person they are, if they aren't completely new then they saw the attention Warden got over these past few years
The better question would be do they take any notice of what we say anyway?

Nemesis Primal wrote:Huh, look at that, it's almost like the amount differs on a per-figure basis. Who could have foreseen this.

Sowndwave76 wrote:Thanks for posting those, Turned Agent.
Definitely helps prove my point.

I'm not quite sure how we ended up at this point, but I do find this interesting.

ZeroWolf wrote:

Nemesis Primal wrote:Huh, look at that, it's almost like the amount differs on a per-figure basis. Who could have foreseen this.

Sowndwave76 wrote:Thanks for posting those, Turned Agent.
Definitely helps prove my point.

I'm not quite sure how we ended up at this point, but I do find this interesting.

I'm so happy I know what the Foe list does now, so this illogical argument where blatant counter-evidence somehow helps the argument it counters can never hurt me or my inner Shockwave again. I learned something from this!

MOVING on, considering we've now already seen 2/3 of the new SS86 figures for this year's Wave 2 early (and 1/2 of the non-86 new figures got an actual reveal kinda), how long do we think until Sludge pics show up in some capacity? I'm curious to see if the SS86 Dinobot Curse of coming with a weird little non-transforming plastic gremlin has been broken by the fact that Sludge is the biggest one.

Nemesis Primal wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:

Nemesis Primal wrote:Huh, look at that, it's almost like the amount differs on a per-figure basis. Who could have foreseen this.

Sowndwave76 wrote:Thanks for posting those, Turned Agent.
Definitely helps prove my point.

I'm not quite sure how we ended up at this point, but I do find this interesting.

I'm so happy I know what the Foe list does now, so this illogical argument where blatant counter-evidence somehow helps the argument it counters can never hurt me or my inner Shockwave again. I learned something from this!

MOVING on, considering we've now already seen 2/3 of the new SS86 figures for this year's Wave 2 early (and 1/2 of the non-86 new figures got an actual reveal kinda), how long do we think until Sludge pics show up in some capacity? I'm curious to see if the SS86 Dinobot Curse of coming with a weird little non-transforming plastic gremlin has been broken by the fact that Sludge is the biggest one.

First part of what you said:
I'm now picturing a mini shockwave on your shoulder.

The rest:

I'd be surprised if we don't see him soon, he may have been one of the planned reveals at the now cancelled toy fair. We'll see him either at a fans first Friday or a Transformers Tuesday. Seeing how he's a big ticket item (literally) I can see it being the former rather the latter.

Also, I don't think they'll have need for a pack in, his alt mode needs all the plastic.

A moot point, but Hasbro pulled out of Toy Fair before its cancellation. Just saying...

When is the next official reveal anyway?

william-james88 wrote:So, we don't have to expect a new Prowl mold in SS86, for instance.

But the WFC deco doesn't look like this...

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

william-james88 wrote:So, we don't have to expect a new Prowl mold in SS86, for instance.

But the WFC deco doesn't look like this...

Too soon, man, too soon

ZeroWolf wrote:I'm now picturing a mini shockwave on your shoulder.

...I may have a need to pick up at least one of this year's 2 Core Shockwaves now.

Man, if I had a nickel for every time a board member convinced me to get a new Shockwave, I'd have 2 nickels, which isn't a lot, but it''s weird that it happened twice, right?

The logic of my point that you two don’t seem to understand is literally in the photos that were just shown. And in the photos I posted earlier. And what I’ve stated in my posts.

What’s actually not logical is that you’re trying to dodge what you can literally see.

I’ve objectively shared my thoughts based on what can literally be observed.
You’re trying to back your point with statements like, “Because these were supposed to be released around the same time…”, and
“Hastak would’ve had to have scrapped work and start over again”…
*Which this second statement doesn’t even make sense… Changing the look of a figure during the design process doesn’t mean starting over. Removing what would be molded detail isn’t exactly the same as re-engineering a figure’s transformation. In fact I’m betting removing visual detail is easier than adding it. It has to be. Because designing something requires thought, a plan, considering materials usage, how it works with the functions of moving parts, where joints/seams/pins are located, etc… Deleting/removing those visuals doesn’t involve almost any of that, and when it does, it would be to a much lesser degree.

No matter which figures were supposed to be in the same line, no matter where they landed, the release schedules, waves, etc.
The bottom line is, Cyclonus and how he looks, happened. This figure and his design came to fruition…
You may want chalk this up to “inconsistency”, but come on…
You really think his design (and these others I’ve listed) wasn’t intentional??

“What about Hot Rod, Kup, and Blurr, and amount of detail that was traced in those photos?”
Going back to one part of my original point--
There’s less detail on most of the figures I listed (in a previous post). If there’s not less (which compared to a lot of these other figures, is still truth), it’s more subtle. And in some cases, it’s more intentional.

Because you don’t seem to get this, here's a few examples.

I’ll start with ER Starcream and Cyclonus since they’re similarly sized voyagers.
The torsos, shoulders, arms, and legs are comparable.
And look for yourselves, Cyclonus is actually slightly larger in all of these areas maybe other than the torso. Meaning there was even more surface to work with and opportunity to add detail.
But look at all of those parts on each, then tell me they’re anywhere close to the same in the amount, subtlety, or intentionality of details.
You can’t. No one can. That’s not reality. The details, not just aspects of the original character designs, are that different.

There were a whole lot of really small details “traced” in the photo of Kup.
Look at those tiny circles (“rivet holes”?) that are just below the seam that separates the upper leg…
Please tell me you can see and understand that that’s a subtle detail.
Then look at all of the recessed (or raised; however you want to look at) shapes on the upper legs of ER Starscream.
Hell, look at any one of those shapes and try to explain how those are just as subtle as those tiny indentations on Kup. They’re not.
And funny how there’s a line on SS’s thighs that were maybe originally for a swivel… At least the seam on Kup’s thighs serve a purpose.
So while the legs are one example, the point is there is a major difference in subtleties overall, and these subtleties are hidden when covered in those edited traced lines.

An example of intentionality?
Look at Hot Rod’s and Kup’s forearms. There are raised shapes on HR’s, recessed shapes on Kup’s.
And in both of those areas, there’s literally a different color.
So where the design has a difference in surface level, there’s a reason.
But look at the details on SS’s forearms (minus the peg on the left one).
That’s detail for the sake of detail. There’s no other purpose beyond appearance. It’s the same on his shoulders.
And yes, there are details on the shoulders of those other two. But there’s less, AND it’s more subtle.

“But that’s comparing deluxe-sized figures to a voyager”.
Fine… Do the same (and more) comparisons between ER SS and Wreck-gar, Perceptor, and again, Cyclonus.
The differences aren’t just “inconsistencies”. These aren’t “oversights” that slipped all the way through the design process on multiple figures.

“What about figures like Sideswipe and Cliffjumper?”
That’s a good question. I’ll add in Smokescreen.
This is one of those situations that doesn’t have a good answer.
My initial thought is there was consideration taken into the fact that those molds were going to be used for multiple repaints/retools. This of course adds to the mix new/retooled headsculpts, a couple retooled car parts here and there, altered paint apps, etc. So there’s at least a chance the thought was to not put as much into the molded details since there would absolutely be a need for additional changes from character to character. So check this out… While most of that is fact, I’m not claiming my speculation is.
But just because it’s unexplainable, that doesn’t change anything that I’ve stated above or before.
In fact, this is one of those unexplainable things really similar to why Cyclonus and Kup have light piping, but almost no one else does. I know there are probably a few others, but besides NF Soundwave (and Soundblaster?), I can’t think of any off the top of my head. Who knows…
Why don’t one of you masters of logic explain these situations.

Either way that doesn't change anything I’ve said or pointed-out.
My main point stems from what we can see on figures that have and will be released.
I'm by no means the only person who has seen and brought this up.

Your main arguments have been “all were supposed to be from the same line”, and “different figures are going to be designed differently”.

So back to what I said in one of my first posts on this subject…
If you really believe there isn't intentional design differences in the figures I've listed and the vast majority of others, we'll have to agree to disagree.