The Energon Pub

Which G1 season 1 and season 2 Autobot characters survived the '86 animated movie cull?

I know most of the obvious ones, Optimus of course, Ironhide, Ratchet, Brawn for example, I also seem to remember even Wheeljack and Windcharger had an 'on screen' death scene, but what about the rest? What happened to the likes of Grapple, Mirage and Beachcomber for example?

These guys were some of my favourite characters from the original two seasons, however from what I can remember, they never made an appearance in season 3. Because of this is it safe to assume that they met their respective makers in the movie, or did they in fact survive the Decepticon onslaught of Autobot city?

Is there some kind of definitive list available, or was it just an 'out of sight out of mind' approach that Hasbro adopted towards these toys?

Any thoughts?

MightyMagnus78 wrote:Which G1 season 1 and season 2 Autobot characters survived the '86 animated movie cull?

I know most of the obvious ones, Optimus of course, Ironhide, Ratchet, Brawn for example, I also seem to remember even Wheeljack and Windcharger had an 'on screen' death scene, but what about the rest? What happened to the likes of Grapple, Mirage and Beachcomber for example?

Actually the deaths of Brawn,Wheeljack and Windcharger were never confirmed within the narrative of the series..

It's easier to list the ones that survived: Bumblebee, Cliffjumper, Jazz, Blaster, Arielbots, Perceptor, Sunstreaker, Hound and the Dinobots. I think thats it! The rest were killed off in the movie or never on screen again. Maybe they died before the movie...who knows? 1986 - 2005 is a long time. Alot of dying could've happened. I heard Huffer got an honorable mention somewhere...off screen death.

A cull is a good way to describe it...there were too many autobots at the time I guess.

What a lame way to try to get kids to buy toys btw: by killing the ones they bought! Hahahaha.

Prowl and Brawn show up again in the cartoon after the movie-which is freaky, considering they were clearly killed on the shuttle.

adamassc wrote:Prowl and Brawn show up again in the cartoon after the movie-which is freaky, considering they were clearly killed on the shuttle.

Theres nothing clear about what happened to Brawn.


I repeat, Brawns death was never confirmed within the narrative of the series.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Actually the deaths of Brawn,Wheeljack and Windcharger were never confirmed within the narrative of the series..

While this is true, i think the majority of us run with presumtion that as many others were killed, they were also killed.

ThunderThruster wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Actually the deaths of Brawn,Wheeljack and Windcharger were never confirmed within the narrative of the series..

While this is true, i think the majority of us run with presumtion that as many others were killed, they were also killed.

True.....but presumptions dont equal facts.

Brawn is a tough one to determine...he did appear in Carnage in C-Minor, but I think that is generally considered to be an animation gaff.

With Windcharger and Wheeljack, it's even iffier. They didn't turn gray and their visible wounds looked superficial at best. They weren't in the shuttle, either. I'm calling stasis lock on those two.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

ThunderThruster wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Actually the deaths of Brawn,Wheeljack and Windcharger were never confirmed within the narrative of the series..

While this is true, i think the majority of us run with presumtion that as many others were killed, they were also killed.

True.....but presumptions dont equal facts.

Again true, but there's no fact (other than not being verbally confirmed) to prove that they're were only wounded.

I believe that they were killed. If others dont, thats their belief.

ThunderThruster wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

ThunderThruster wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Actually the deaths of Brawn,Wheeljack and Windcharger were never confirmed within the narrative of the series..

While this is true, i think the majority of us run with presumtion that as many others were killed, they were also killed.

True.....but presumptions dont equal facts.

Again true, but there's no fact (other than not being verbally confirmed) to prove that they're were only wounded.

Actually, later appearances of these characters can be taken as evidence they were only wounded.

I believe that they were killed. If others dont, thats their belief.

When it comes down to it you have to admit there's really nothing in the narrative that supports that belief.

The only things from the story that can be cited as evidence of their possible deaths sould be their bodies falling or lieing on the ground.

And if you believe thats evidence of their deaths then you got to believe that the 3 Conehead seakers are also dead.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

ThunderThruster wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

ThunderThruster wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Actually the deaths of Brawn,Wheeljack and Windcharger were never confirmed within the narrative of the series..

While this is true, i think the majority of us run with presumtion that as many others were killed, they were also killed.

True.....but presumptions dont equal facts.

Again true, but there's no fact (other than not being verbally confirmed) to prove that they're were only wounded.

Actually, later appearances of these characters can be taken as evidence they were only wounded.

Are we talking western+Takara or G1 as a whole, because there people who wont accept Takara as a continuation of G1 (dont know any personally, but they're out there), and does that also take animation error into account?

I believe that they were killed. If others dont, thats their belief.

When it comes down to it you have to admit there's really nothing in the narrative that supports that belief.

The only things from the story that can be cited as evidence of their possible deaths sould be their bodies falling or lieing on the ground.

And if you believe thats evidence of their deaths then you got to believe that the 3 Conehead seakers are also dead.

Pretty much.

TBH, they culled that many characters in the movie, believing that those who are in question were killed, is probably just how my mind process' the events in the movie.

You've got a damned good argument Sto, but I'm only here to put my 2-bits in. Until proof comes to light for either side or Has/Tak make a call on it, I'm gonna carry on believing that they died. Anyone that wants to believe they didn't, is fine by me.

ThunderThruster wrote:Are we talking western+Takara or G1 as a whole, because there people who wont accept Takara as a continuation of G1 (dont know any personally, but they're out there), and does that also take animation error into account?

I'm talking about all of the above.

But we can break it down.

How can we call it an "animation error" with out knowing for a fact that they died.

For example, Windcharge is seen in "Call of the Primitives".Some say its an animation error, but since his death was never confirmed we really cant say its an error.

Maybe it was the story editors way of saying Windcharger was still alive.

Pretty much.

TBH, they culled that many characters in the movie, believing that those who are in question were killed, is probably just how my mind process' the events in the movie.

You've got a damned good argument Sto, but I'm only here to put my 2-bits in. Until proof comes to light for either side or Has/Tak make a call on it, I'm gonna carry on believing that they died. Anyone that wants to believe they didn't, is fine by me.

Thats kool, I'm not trying to change any ones minds here.....just want to open minds to other possibilities.

The Marvel comicbook adaption seemed pretty definite about the deaths of Prowl, Ironhide, Ratchet and Brawn. Same with the IDW adaption which having been published after the movie is more likely to stick closer to it.

To quote the IDW version: Megatron: "Die Autobots!"

"And within mere seconds..... as the Decepticons' lethal barrage overwhelms them.... the Autobots do exactly that."

Plus Megatron's yelling "Die Autobots!" was pretty much indicative of his intentions and if not, his finishing off of Ironhide certainly was. You telling me that a shipful of blood thirsty Decepticons weren't going to likewise finish off the others if they survived?

Much as I like those 4, Prowl and Ironhide being my favourite Autobots, I'll be disappointed if they didn't die as it would seem a major cop out.

The same comic also shows Beachcomber lying beside Windcharger and while admittedly, Windcharger's colours haven't faded, Beachcomber's seem to have done so.

I have to admit while I understand the colour fading being done for dramatic effect for Prime's death, I think it's actually kind of lame.

Issue 4 of IDW's books, seem to show a pretty definitive death for the coneheads with Thrust and Dirge visibly disentegrating.

The storyboards suggest Mirage's death either by Bombshell or Megatron and Red Alert's at the hands of the Constructicons.

I have to admit, I really hope Wheeljack died. I always disliked him.

I've seen a few mentions of Bluestreak in other discussions of thsi topic but I've not seen any evidence.

Huffer's name was read by Daniel in the crypt in Dark Awakening.

As for characters reappearing in later episodes, this is the G1 cartoon we're talking about. We all know most of it is shoddily animated and in a lot of cases, the writing isn't much better so I would never take any of it for granted.

Isn't this topic as tired as the Rumble/Frenzy colour debate or who are the Sweeps?

Windsweeper wrote:The Marvel comicbook adaption seemed pretty definite about the deaths of Prowl, Ironhide, Ratchet and Brawn. Same with the IDW adaption which having been published after the movie is more likely to stick closer to it.

Sorry but that made no sence.

How can something published 20+ years after the fact be said to be more likely to stick closer to the source??

Its more likely to "favor" what the books writer thinks happened.

To quote the IDW version: Megatron: "Die Autobots!"

He said that in the film also....and it means nothing.

Plus Megatron's yelling "Die Autobots!" was pretty much indicative of his intentions

As it was for most of seasons 1 and 2.

Also meaning nothing.

You telling me that a shipful of blood thirsty Decepticons weren't going to likewise finish off the others if they survived?

Again I refer you to much of seasons 1 and 2.

The same comic also shows Beachcomber lying beside Windcharger and while admittedly, Windcharger's colours haven't faded, Beachcomber's seem to have done so.

Which would contradict the film and season 3.

Beachcomber was seen inside of Unicron, near the end of the film, and Beachcomber was seen alive durring season 3.

It would seem to make sense in that at this stage most of us have seen the film so they know better than to make drastic changes. I mean, if I were writing it, I'd try to respect the source material as much as I could. Ok an assumption on my part but I'd like to think a reasonably sensible one.

Of course the writer is going to write on what he thinks happened.

I think Megatron shouting "Die Autobots!" in a story set during a war would be fairly self explanatory regarding his intentions. Bear in mind that the movie was conveying a far more serious tone right from the start than the more kiddie friendly show. Both the IDW and Marvel adaptions are based on the same film and both make it clear that Prowl's crew get killed.

As for contradicting Season 3? The G1 cartoon is primarily a mix of bad writing and bad animation. How can anyone take it seriously as canon? Ok, I know a lot of fans do so before I alienate those people, I'm only stating my opinion not attacking anyone. I love the Marvel comics but I'm willing to admit they're not perfect especially when trying to reconcile the UK material regrettably.

Personally I've always felt the so called Beachcomber inside Unicron is very generic looking.

Anyhow, I have no wish to drag this out. Some people believe the characters in question died, others don't. In some cases it is unclear so to be fair, neither opinion is outrightly true or false hence this topic turns up every few months.

Windsweeper wrote:It would seem to make sense in that at this stage most of us have seen the film so they know better than to make drastic changes.

And as stated, the source material itself doesnt contain defintive answers,

I think Megatron shouting "Die Autobots!" in a story set during a war would be fairly self explanatory regarding his intentions.

It may make clear his intentions.....but not the end results of his actions.

I'm willing to bet Megatron and Galvatron said similar statements threw out the 3 seasons of the show, with out any actual deaths.

Bear in mind that the movie was conveying a far more serious tone right from the start than the more kiddie friendly show.

And you should also keep in mind that the sensors/rateing comission didnt alow them to be as dark as they wanted.

Both the IDW and Marvel adaptions are based on the same film and both make it clear that Prowl's crew get killed.

Actully the Marvel adaptation was was based on an earlier script of the film and not the final product.

And I really didnt see anything solid about Brawns death in the IDW book.

And besides that the IDW books are irrelevant to the debate because they are from 20 years after the fact.

As for contradicting Season 3? The G1 cartoon is primarily a mix of bad writing and bad animation. How can anyone take it seriously as canon? Ok, I know a lot of fans do so before I alienate those people, I'm only stating my opinion not attacking anyone.

And wheres the logic in allowing a book from 20's after the fact to further comlicate the issue.

Like I said, Beachcomber was seen within Unicron, he was seen in season 3.Theres no logic in taking IDW's version as canon over what was seen on the show/film.

I love the Marvel comics but I'm willing to admit they're not perfect especially when trying to reconcile the UK material regrettably.

Theres no need to reconcile.

The UK stories are from an alternate universe with its own continuity.

Personally I've always felt the so called Beachcomber inside Unicron is very generic looking.

Actually hes pretty spot on, but even if you go with thast he was still seen in season 3.

Anyhow, I have no wish to drag this out. Some people believe the characters in question died, others don't. In some cases it is unclear so to be fair, neither opinion is outrightly true or false hence this topic turns up every few months.

True...but I have fun with it

AlphaBrion wrote:What a lame way to try to get kids to buy toys btw: by killing the ones they bought! Hahahaha.

I loved that movie, but in all honesty, I quit collecting for a long time after it came out. I continued to watch the series, and even though it was my favorite film at the time, in many ways, it killed transformers for me. All of my favorite transformers died or were re-imagined, and the new ones, while cool, were not cool enough to keep me buying the toys. I was ten when the movie came out, so maybe that's also part of the reason the love affair stalled.

Well, in one of the extras for the 20th anniversary release, IIRC, the creators at least admitted that killing off those characters in that manner was wrong.

Also, 'Rude Awakening of Optimus Prime' aside, one wonders what he made of the aftermath of the events of the movie and after.

Grimlock dies in the movie, or at least his dignity does. Don't worry though, he becomes a waiter in Season 3! Robot waiters - R2D2 and Grimlock, it's like Arnie and Danny Devito in Twins, respectively.

From the amount of animation errors in the first two seasons, I think anyone could safely say the "dead" autobots that showed up in season 3 were in there by mistake.

Wheeljack, and Windcharger didn't turn grey, but neither did anyone from the shuttle. The last scene with them, they are still in color. And with the shots they took, I'd say they were dead. Brawn could be argued that he had a major injury but survived. I doubt it though since he was trapped in their with the Decepticons.

JeffX wrote:Wheeljack, and Windcharger didn't turn grey, but neither did anyone from the shuttle. The last scene with them, they are still in color.

You are incorrect.

Prowl and Ratchet both turned grey before death.And Ironhide wasnt shown again after the close up" shot of him being shot.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

JeffX wrote:Wheeljack, and Windcharger didn't turn grey, but neither did anyone from the shuttle. The last scene with them, they are still in color.

You are incorrect.

Prowl and Ratchet both turned grey before death.And Ironhide wasnt shown again after the close up" shot of him being shot.

Watch it again and you'll see all four Autobots on the ground with Decepticons flying over them. They are all the normal colors that they usually are. Yes Prowl goes grey but the next scene you can still see him in black. Animation error, maybe but that doesn't account for the red still being there on Ratchet and Ironhide.

JeffX wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

JeffX wrote:Wheeljack, and Windcharger didn't turn grey, but neither did anyone from the shuttle. The last scene with them, they are still in color.

You are incorrect.

Prowl and Ratchet both turned grey before death.And Ironhide wasnt shown again after the close up" shot of him being shot.

Watch it again and you'll see all four Autobots on the ground with Decepticons flying over them. They are all the normal colors that they usually are. Yes Prowl goes grey but the next scene you can still see him in black. Animation error, maybe but that doesn't account for the red still being there on Ratchet and Ironhide.

I dont need to watch it again....but apparently you do.Not to sound like I'm tooting my own horn but I dont make these kind of mistakes.

Prowl turns grew before he hits the ground, but his colors are already white/grey and black so when he's liying on the ground you really cant see the grey parts.

Ironhide wasnt dead at that point,which is why he wasnt grey, or have you forgotton his last effort to stop Megatron??Not to mention that his death was confirmed later in season 3.

And the last time Ratchet was seen he had turned grey.

Here see it for your self.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJUrtxf2xOY
starting at time frame 8:01

watch Megatron feet very closly as he walks past the bodies of Ironhide and Ratchet.

Look at Ratchets arm and hand.

They have turned grey.

No need to be a prick about things. I was wrong about Ironhide, but Ratchet was lying on the ground red and white. Prowl was on the ground black and white. He did start to turn grey as he fell after being shot. So either they are simple animation errors or it really doesn't matter.

Let's say Brawn did survive his blast to the shoulder. Why would the Decepticons let him lay their injured? They would have killed him.

Wheeljack and Windcharger may not have been grey, but who says they weren't dying? Who says when Devastator threw the wall into the structure that they didn't die being smashed by rubble since they were unable to move? We don't, we can only assume that since they never showed up again that they were dead. Especially since they were all major characters in the previous seasons and never showed up again. Except in Carnage, but most people consider that episode to be a joke and whatever episode that Wheeljack showed up again. Sorry but it escapes me at the moment. The original cartoon series and movie was ripe with animation errors from characters being in two places at one, to wrong colors. I'd say just because a character who has big holes blown in them isn't dead because they aren't grey is a stretch.