The Energon Pub

Hi all
As mentioned over in another thread I am writing a review of the movie but first I am doing some research to get some more context to the review. So I've wandered over here to draw on your expertise and ask the people most likely to know the answers to my questions

How badly out of canon is the movie, and should it be treated as a fresh start? Or are there ways to hammer it into canon somehow?
Also, how have you guys and other pre-2007-movie TF fans reacted to the various deviations from existing lore?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
~Shiv

Welcome.

Completely fresh start. Even with a bottle of vodka and squinting really hard wont make it fit into an existing series.

As for how it deviated from lore, I just accepted it as a fresh new continuity. There's been enough of them. G1-Beast wars-Beast machines being one, RID being it's own, Armada-Energon-Cybertron being another one, and now Animated. Plus the current run of new comics from IDW that started in 06 has created it's own continuity as well.

Basically, if you can't accept new continuities/lore, you won't make it with any new series.

Just dont ask how people thought about Prime having lips or flames. Now that deviation from lore got people really riled.

I think that it is a new and fresh start. The movie has several aspects about it that are G1-inspired, however, it is not a G1 movie as some people might have felt when the movie first came out.

I disagree. It's a clear reboot of G1, and the classic premises of those plots and canons. It's updated, tweaked, but well within the G1 scope. My 2 cents.

In many ways, you can look to the very first three episodes, and see the seeds for the entire movie trilogy in each one. You don't need to get much more complex than that.

Abilor wrote:I disagree. It's a clear reboot of G1, and the classic premises of those plots and canons. It's updated, tweaked, but well within the G1 scope. My 2 cents.

In many ways, you can look to the very first three episodes, and see the seeds for the entire movie trilogy in each one. You don't need to get much more complex than that.

Really? I see some similarities (Witwicky, Bumblebee is yellow) but how do you view it as a reboot of G1? Names have been reused in all series without making them a reboot, rather a new continuity.

Although, this then leads to a debate: Is every new continuity simply a reboot of G1? Yes or no?

I am still saying that it is new but with some aspects of it is G1


1) Witwicky
2) friendship between a boy and Bumblebee
3) they used a move that was introduced in G1-series 3...I forget which episode it is.

Just to let you guys know I've finished the review and put it up here, I've also put a special thanks to the members of this forum for helping me with my questions. I hope I've done the movie and the franchise at least some justice!

Thanks all!
~Shiv

That's a good little review that sums the movie up pretty nicely. Just two nitpicking parts:

The japanese company is Takara, not Tanaka.

and the protoform is what a Transformer is called before it takes on an Earth form. Once it has it's earth disguise scanned and can transform into it, it's just called robot mode.

I like that cross breading a toy car with a rubix cube comment.

Thanks for the feedback! I've altered the post based on your comments so it should be more accurate now.

~Shiv

Abilor wrote:I disagree. It's a clear reboot of G1, and the classic premises of those plots and canons. It's updated, tweaked, but well within the G1 scope. My 2 cents.

Any reboot is a fresh start.Even with simular eliments once you deside to reboot a serries and head in a different direction you have started a new history that cant be fited into the original.

Abilor wrote:In many ways, you can look to the very first three episodes, and see the seeds for the entire movie trilogy in each one. You don't need to get much more complex than that.

Can you further explanin what you meen???I really see very little simularities between the first 3 episodes of the G1 toon and M.Bay's movie.

Spike had little to no interaction with Bumblebee in the first 3 episodes of the G1 toon his Bay movie counterpart did.

Spike had no love intrest in the first 3 episodes of the G1 toon his Bay movie counterpart did.

Spike's relationship with his dad was very different then that of his Bay movie counterpart.

Movie Ironhide was very much out of character compaired to his G1 counterpart and the same can be said about all the con's except for Megatron and maybe Starscream.

And before you say it....YES all the Decepticon names used in the Bay movie were G1 names.If it were a reboot then their characters should have at least be sowhat simular to their G1 counterparts.

The way I see it there's no way to fit the Bay TF's into any pre-exsisting serries.

Cascadia wrote:I am still saying that it is new but with some aspects of it is G1

3) they used a move that was introduced in G1-series 3...I forget which episode it is.

If you cant remember which episode then which move are you talking about???

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Abilor wrote:In many ways, you can look to the very first three episodes, and see the seeds for the entire movie trilogy in each one. You don't need to get much more complex than that.

Can you further explanin what you meen???I really see very little simularities between the first 3 episodes of the G1 toon and M.Bay's movie.

I will further explain. I am using reboot here in the sense that Batman Begins was a reboot. Effectively, shaking the etch-a-sketch and then drawing the same picture, except this time it will be better and more refined.

I'll write the similarities as they come to me, stream-of-consciousness like.

1.) Autobots and Decepticons (Henceforth A+D) land on earth, bringing their war. Upon arrival, they scan earth-based alt-modes (or they are scanned for them).

2.) A+D effectively use holograms as part of their disguise and abilities. This was played up strongly in the first three episodes.

3.) We meet a boy who befriends the autobots, seeing that they are honest, powerful, and courageous. The boy chooses to ally with them.

4.) It's all about cybertronian energy... It drives both sides.

5.) The Autobots set up camp on the West Coast, while decepticons set up under water.

6.) Decepticons can fly, autobots don't (though this wasn't consistent in the eps)

7.) Prime and Megatron use hand to hand combat weapons (sword/axe and ball'n'chain mace)

8.) The Decepticons never seem to die fully... They always come back

9.) The U.S. military gets involved, confronting their limits. They initially mistrust autobots, and then work with them later.

10.) The sheer characters from the property.


Now, I agree with you that Mikaela comes later. I also agree about sparkplug witwicky not having a garden path, but I beleive that Mikaela's father is going to turn up in the movie as the original sparkplug character component. So they're definitely picking and choosing and refining elements as they go, but the fundamental plot widgets are all those seeds planted in the first three episodes of the G1 series. The story arc is almost identical to that one, but with all the characters probably getting in on the act, which makes sense, since there's three movies to fill not three 20-minute episodes. Which means we'll probably see a variant on the space bridge in the 2nd film, if I'm correct. *if*. I like surprises!


It's the ultimate dream of any kid who loved those three-part transformers and gi joe arcs, which were sort of little movies in and of themselves. This is just live-action, bigger and better moveimaking using the classic hasbro 3-part formula (see "ultimate doom", "megatron's master plan" for other examples besides the first three eps)

It's a bit like the Ultimate series of comics I guess. Only...not as rubbish.

Thank you for explaining futher but allow me to point out some detailed differences on some of your points of simularties....

Abilor wrote:
1.) Autobots and Decepticons (Henceforth A+D) land on earth, bringing their war. Upon arrival, they scan earth-based alt-modes (or they are scanned for them).

We'll in the original G1 they crash landed and were deactivated for over 4 million years ago.And it wasnt till they were awakened 4 million years later that they took earth-based alt-modes....and it was with the help of the Autobot's ship computer.

Abilor wrote:4.) It's all about cybertronian energy... It drives both sides.

G1 was all about "cybertronian energy"....in a sence a life substaining force. The Bay movie was all about a "cybertronian life givving force" of almost a "cybertronian god" like entity.

But I guess as plot devises go it could be considered simular do to the fact that the same result was derived from it

Abilor wrote:5.) The Autobots set up camp on the West Coast, while decepticons set up under water.

In the Bay movie the Autobots didnt really set up anywhere altho they did land in the West Coast and the Decepticon had no base at all.

Abilor wrote:6.) Decepticons can fly, autobots don't (though this wasn't consistent in the eps)

We did'nt see any of the Decepticon's that did not have a airel alt-mode fly.I also dont recall seeing any of the con's fly in robot mode.

So we really dont know if all Decepticons can fly.

Abilor wrote:8.) The Decepticons never seem to die fully... They always come back

We didnt see that in the Bay movie....but I'm guessing we will

Abilor wrote:9.) The U.S. military gets involved, confronting their limits. They initially mistrust autobots, and then work with them later.

We never saw any real trust issues from the U.S. military in the G1 toon.

But we did see some in the G1 comic.

Abilor wrote:10.) The sheer characters from the property.

In name mostly.Largly all of the characterations were not true to their G1 counterparts.

Prime,Megatron and Jazz were the closest.

Thats right I said Jazz was pretty close and he was.G1 Jazz was portrayed as a stereotypical older black man of the 70's and 80's while his Bay movie counterpart was a stereotypical older black man of the late 90's and 00's.

That being said I guess you can find the building block of G1 in the Bay movie but a good number of those same building blocks can be seen in the Unicron trilogy, RID, Beast Wars and the new Animated.

shiv379 wrote:Thanks for the feedback! I've altered the post based on your comments so it should be more accurate now.

~Shiv

Glad I could help.

I also dont recall seeing any of the con's fly in robot mode.

There was 1. Starscream was flying in robot mode when he attacked the jets, but he clearly had his jet engines mounted on his back firing, so only apparantly, ones with a flying alt mode can. Megatron was also seen firing jet thrusters under his feet breifly when he transformed and landed ontop of Jazz, although as they shut off as he finished transforming/landed at the same time, it's hard to tell if that actually was flying in robot mode or just transforming with his tail jets still firing.

Maybe it's just me, but I didn't find Ironhide's character to be as far-off as some people seem to suggest.
He was tough, with a penchant for violence, and a bit of a cowboy thing going on.

Ratchet is the one that I found to be most out-of-character. His "oh, that was tinglin! Try it!" bit with the power lines felt more like Jazz than Ratchet.

Savage wrote:Maybe it's just me, but I didn't find Ironhide's character to be as far-off as some people seem to suggest.
He was tough, with a penchant for violence, and a bit of a cowboy thing going on.

Ratchet is the one that I found to be most out-of-character. His "oh, that was tinglin! Try it!" bit with the power lines felt more like Jazz than Ratchet.

yar, and yar.

Wasn't it Jazz in the novel, walking into the powerlines?

Perhaps that's how it was scripted and then they realized Jazz was too short to walk into the lines, switching the scene to Ratchet. IMO, it would've fitted Ironhide (similar height) a lot more.

I'd say, the new movie gave some good and bad twist to the existing canon.

Example of good one:
* The character's powers and abilities, have a more or less closer tie-in to their earth alt modes. Such as, cars can't fly.
* Robots achieve a closer to realistic sizes as compared to their alt modes.
* Of course, no magic mass-shifting is the biggest plus.

Example of bad ones:
* Jazz's character and accent became so bad.
* Ironhide too trigger-happy.
* Megatron too brain-dead while his minions became geniuses.
* Super technologically-advanced Cybertronians didn't know how to build a space-travelling vehicle.
* Autobots not allowed to communicate in vehicles modes, even in close proximity, while Decepticons have built-in always-on internal cellphones for long-distance "Hail Megatron" chats.
* Autobots borrowed Batman's "spot-light in the sky", to make intra-planetary calls.
* Autobots make space travel using squid-ball body shells, with zero maneuverability, while Decepticons (at least Megatron) travels in first class Cybertronian jet-mode, not needing any form of protection from the deep freeze of empty space (with temperatures as low as 0 Kelvins), and yet was frozen solid upon arriving in the arctics (with temperatures way above 250 Kelvins). (I could go crazy just trying to sprinkle some sense into this one.)

Examples of "can be good or bad"
* Decepticons die too easily.
* Autobots became such whimps.

Auto Bot wrote:* Autobots make space travel using squid-ball body shells, with zero maneuverability, while Decepticons (at least Megatron) travels in first class Cybertronian jet-mode, not needing any form of protection from the deep freeze of empty space (with temperatures as low as 0 Kelvins), and yet was frozen solid upon arriving in the arctics (with temperatures way above 250 Kelvins). (I could go crazy just trying to sprinkle some sense into this one.)

Megatron probably was wearing armor to protect himself from the cold. When he crash-landed, the armor burned off.

This idea is plausible, considering that the Autobots were wearing armor when they landed on Earth. (Pieces of the armor were burning off during their entry.)


Michael

From the prequel pictures i've seen, Megatron's jet mode wasn't wearing anything. Not even a freaking underwear!

Granting he was wearing some sort of super-thin armor, that we can't see, armors can't protect anything from temperature variations. It may provide a bit of mitigating effect against the burning upon entry. But it sure can't provide any protection from the deep freeze of space.

Auto Bot wrote:From the prequel pictures i've seen, Megatron's jet mode wasn't wearing anything. Not even a freaking underwear!

Granting he was wearing some sort of super-thin armor, that we can't see, armors can't protect anything from temperature variations. It may provide a bit of mitigating effect against the burning upon entry. But it sure can't provide any protection from the deep freeze of space.

If the armor was insulated, then it would protect against the cold.

We do not see Megatron's entry into Earth's atmosphere; the armor might have burned off, or else the armor was removed and stored in another part of Hoover Dam.

It is possible the heat shields used by NASA were designed using data collected from the armor Megatron wore.


Michael

dbz77 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:From the prequel pictures i've seen, Megatron's jet mode wasn't wearing anything. Not even a freaking underwear!

Granting he was wearing some sort of super-thin armor, that we can't see, armors can't protect anything from temperature variations. It may provide a bit of mitigating effect against the burning upon entry. But it sure can't provide any protection from the deep freeze of space.

If the armor was insulated, then it would protect against the cold.

We do not see Megatron's entry into Earth's atmosphere; the armor might have burned off, or else the armor was removed and stored in another part of Hoover Dam.

It is possible the heat shields used by NASA were designed using data collected from the armor Megatron wore.


Michael

Read the prequels comics. It's got brilliantly clear drawings. Or watch the "Transformers Beginnings". It clearly shows Megatron approaching earth, in pursuit of the Allspark, in the familiar bare Cybertronian jet mode. No armor, no force field, no gift wraps. Just the bare jet entering the earth's atmosphere.

There was a rationale somewhere, I think in Ghosts of Yesterday, that Megatron expended all his energy in order to arrive on Earth. The prequel comics touch on it too, I think. He didn't anticipate any problem getting the Allspark once he landed, so he brazenly didn't conserve a final push of energy to dig it up when he landed in the arctic. So he had to go into sleep mode and bide his time...

I agree with others though that this is not a move that Classic Megatron would make; he would have supervised from afar, sending a minion to take all the risks. Even if he was hands-on, he wouldn't have been so foolish to risk himself that way.

I hope he gets some brains upgrades for the sequel. I also wish Welker could do it like he used to.

Whether he expended too much energy or not, that still doesn't explain how and why he survived in absolute coldness of space.

Yah, i agree. Movie Megatron is totally brainless. Just watching the way he fights, he's totally empty up there. Like a zombie charging head on.

Auto Bot wrote:Whether he expended too much energy or not, that still doesn't explain how and why he survived in absolute coldness of space.

He expended energy in a long slow burn to offset the zero kelvin environment. Maybe, I'm guessing, by establishing a vector. Once he's moving at a constant rate of speed, he need not expend any more energy (a la newtons laws of inertia). The only energy he'd need then is enough to keep his systems online in 0K, so maybe just his core kept at a nice warm 100 kelvin, a steady burn as he hurtles through the vast emptiness towards earth. Once he enters the solar system, he expends a LOT of energy to then alter the vector and approach earth, and just plain runs out of calories...

My point is that once in motion, the only energy he'd to expend is in hibernation. One cool cybertronian metabolism...

The other interesting question is what is the maximum speed of a sleepy cybertronian hurtling through space? We know that they can remain online for thousands of years, if you buy the prequel explanations, so I'm pretty sure there's no warp speed... Maybe just 10,000 miles a second, roughly 5% of the speed of light? That's some hardcore cruise control...