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[JazZeke]

Chibnall just literally pulled a "Curse of the Fatal Death" and tried to play it straight. "You traveled back in time to set up your plan through history, so I traveled in time to sabotage it." This show has become its own parody. He even had the Master get stranded and burst in complaining about how long he's been stranded!

Also, no explanation for why the Master has done a complete 180 on character development. They went from "I just want my friend back" to "When I kill you, I expect you to stay dead!" with no in between. They're just steamrolling right ahead as if none of that ever happened. And you talk about his rage, but that's ALL the guy is playing, it's such a one-note performance that doesn't match up to a character who spent years playing a role, infiltrating MI-6, and then laying low for 78 years waiting to catch up to his own timeline. Showing that level of patience and flying off the handle so readily do not match up.

Honestly, this two-parter burned up the last of my good will for Chibnall, and I'm speaking as someone who originally had a lot of hope for this era.

[Burn]

I shouldn't have been surprised that we'd go from two good eps, to complete ****.

Why come up with something new when you can rip off Aliens (complete with "get away from her" line) and Fourth Doctors "Full Circle" while also managing to sneak in climate change as this weeks agenda push.

It had potential but ... let down again by terrible writing, and again, one too many companions. Jodie really does deserve better.

[JazZeke]

Mediocre episode, decent message, completely spoiled at the end by the Saturday Morning Cartoon PSA speech.

[Burn]

Well ... holy ****, what an episode. All we knew was that the Judoon would be returning in this episode.

And then, we heard the voice and Captain Jack was back to set up for the rest of the series.

But why stop there? Then came the biggest twist in DW history. I'd heard rumours that they were going to re-write history and make it so that Hartnell was NOT the First Doctor, but rather that there was an entire regeneration cycle before him, and it looks like this is where they might be heading. It'll all no doubt tie into The Timeless Child and The Master's "everything we were told was a lie".

As much as I'd like to see this being a Doctor from another reality, I think it's more a case of something major happening in Galifrey's past that resulted in a lot of history being erased, including the existence of many Time Lord lives.

Aside from Orphan 55, this has been a bloody good season, though I still feel Jodie hasn't quite had her chance to "be The Doctor" (Doctor Ruth actually seemed more of a Doctor sadly), but she's getting there.

[JazZeke]

It was definitely an intriguing episode with a couple really intriguing twists... but I'm really nervous about what Chibnall is planning. He can't even pull off smaller-scale stories, he absolutely has not earned my trust to handle big, canon-redefining events like what he seems to be setting up.

That being said, I did like this alternate Doctor. I daresay she's got more gravitas for the role than Whittaker herself.

[JazZeke]

You know what, I WANT to like Jodie, I’ve been routing for her the whole time, I even gave her the benefit of the doubt because the writing of Chibnall’s era has been really shoddy… but I think if I need to be honest, she is probably my second or third least favorite Doctor. She handles the humor and lightheartedness of the character well enough, but when she tries to swing into dark/moody/angry she’s about as intimidating as a growling corgi puppy.

I mean, in merely one-third of an episode, Jo Martin completely blew her out of the water as the Doctor in terms of sheer presence.

[Burn]

You know what, I WANT to like Jodie, I’ve been routing for her the whole time, I even gave her the benefit of the doubt because the writing of Chibnall’s era has been really shoddy… but I think if I need to be honest, she is probably my second or third least favorite Doctor. She handles the humor and lightheartedness of the character well enough, but when she tries to swing into dark/moody/angry she’s about as intimidating as a growling corgi puppy.

I mean, in merely one-third of an episode, Jo Martin completely blew her out of the water as the Doctor in terms of sheer presence.

I've tried so hard to give Jodie a chance, I've made excuses like the bad writing ... but you're right. In the space of a few minutes Jo Martin was more of a Doctor than Jodie has been in 1.5 seasons.

But ... we could be getting ahead of ourselves. It was only one episode. Both parts of Spyfall were good, then along came Orphan 55. Chibnall is likely to lead the writers down a bad path, or he could surprise us.

So I'll stay positive and keep an open mind, and possibly stay off Doctor Who social media. The negativity and over the top positivity ... there's just no middle ground there.

[ZeroWolf]

There's no middleground anywhere any more, everything is becoming polarising.

[Cyber Bishop]

In the space of a few minutes Jo Martin was more of a Doctor than Jodie has been in 1.5 seasons..

She was awesome!!!

[Burn]

This weeks episode ... social awareness theme this week was mental health, which is a good thing.

Overall though, this was a pretty stupid episode.

Are we expected to believe that this all powerful immortal being, who, with his best mate, manipulated two planets into going to war, an all powerful immortal being who likes to think he's better than the Celestial Toymaker and The Guardians, is really just a creepy old dude who likes to give wet willies with his detachable fingers and then leaving the fingers hanging out to dry like underwear?

Come on Chibnall ...

As for The Doctor's escape by flicking her hips and tossing the sonic up to her hand, that was complete and utter bullshit and I shouldn't even be getting annoyed by it, but I did!

Graham once again was brilliant, I've decided that if (JW's) The Doctor hurts Graham then I will forever hate this incarnation.

Yaz finally got some character development, as did Ryan's best mate.

This season, while it's been a great improvement over the previous season, is still so hit and miss though.

[JazZeke]

Doctor Who has a real problem with pacing these days. Chibnall’s stories are more like story elements thrown into a blender. One minute it’s a mystery, then halfway through the villains expodump everything and stand in some random street looking menacing and talking about doing evil but not really doing it while the Doctor hangs back until she can come up a way to out-technobabble them.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

So no one had anything to say about The Timeless Children?
I get the impression, much like the adaptation of 7th Doctor story 'Family of Blood' for the 10th Doctor, Chibnall has tried to bring elements of Big Finish into the TV Show. To wildly varying degrees of success. There were certainly better ways to add the Morbius Doctors to canon. I personally think the reveal would have been better served being either The Master or Susan. But it is what it is.

I thought as I watched the episode, this is going to fracture the fandom. I was starting to enjoy this season. The finale has pushed me back onto the fence however.

In the meantime, as a nice segue, I dipped my toe into Big Finish for the first time. I purchased Spare Parts and Cyberman - The Complete Series. Spare Parts was a download, which I thought was amazing and if you're a fan of the Cybermen too, I can't recommend it enough. Cyberman, was a CD boxset that arrived today. 600 minutes runtime! I'm going to have to find a spare 10 hours...

[JazZeke]

Well, if we're going to talk about that "twist"...

After decades of being a comic book reader, I am so, so tired of this approach. Why does “Everything Will Be Changed” have to be every writer’s go-to when handed a long-running property? Why not try to be remembered simply for the strength of the smaller stories? Ultimately, though, I can live with retcons. I’m not one of those people who thinks canon has to stay the same at all times. But a retcon has to be judged by what it adds to the overall narrative and what it detracts.

But my reaction by the end of this episode was… I guess it could have been worse. Chibnall could have screwed up everything much more. But this is basically the exact same plot twist as The Matrix Reloaded. I liked the Doctor nobody special. Just a dropout bum by Time Lord standards. It makes the character’s ascension to one of the most important figures in the universe by sheer virtue of their actions one of their most inspirational elements.

Now, all of that’s flushed down the toilet. The Doctor has always been “Special,” has always been “Different.” Now, they’re not even a Time Lord! They were never born into the society they rebelled from. Their separation from Time Lord society feels less like a choice. Less like free will. Because they were never truly one of them. It’s just not worth it. This retcon, in my opinion, detracts more from Inspirational Message of the character of the Doctor than it adds to them. Not to mention, associating the first female Doctor with a retcon that involves phsyical violation and lack of agency elevates this retcon past misguided and into "ICKY."

I don't mind the Doctor having a life cycle before this one that the Time Lords redacted. I don't mind them gaining the ability to regenerate from a weird alien kid. But the Doctor should not have been that weird alien kid. It would have been even more poignant to make the Timeless Child the Master. It would have even justified his sudden "evil again" attitude after Missy's character development.

Also, I feel sorry for the poor wiki editors who now have to figure out how they hell they’re going to rewrite every Doctor’s page.

Oh yes, and destroying Gallifrey again? At least the first time, the Doctor had done it themselves, to add some additional emotional weight to the character. And saving it likewise had a huge emotional impact on the character. Now it’s just… gone, and it means nothing. The Time Lords have always been plot fodder for the Doctor, their machinations providing plenty of storytelling potential over the decades. But now they’re really gone (in a way that any future writer so inclined will have to jump through some pretty impressive hoops to bring back), and all the potential stories that can be had with them is gone as well. Once again, the decision, in my mind, was Not Worth It.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

Now, they’re not even a Time Lord!

Well if you think about it, The Doctor is now the original Time Lord.

Yeah, Susan or The Master should have been the Timeless Child. The revelation certainly would have pushed Master off the deep end mentally. Given his inferiority complex to The Doctor has always been an underlying factor to his character. Ultimately though, I find this the least appealing Master since Eric Roberts. The fact he even wore a vague Purple and Green "Joker" suit in the finale really put my back up. In terms of Head Canon, I'd even put this Master before Derek Jacobi. He certainly isn't post-Missy, in his mentality.

When I watched Spyfall, I thought the reveal of 'O' should have been Omega, NOT The Master. Omega is certainly more believable in being able to single-handedly wipe out Gallifrey (and keep the bodies from regenerating?).

In destroying Gallifrey and wiping out the Time Lords completely (aside from the Named ones, that Nu Who has yet to even acknowledge) it also makes the reveal redundant. The Doctor is "special" to a people that now no longer exist. Making Her no more special than Ecclestone or Tennant.

[JazZeke]

Now, they’re not even a Time Lord!

Well if you think about it, The Doctor is now the original Time Lord.

That's not how genetics work. One species splicing a few chromosomes into their own from another, does not make the former species retroactively the same thing as the latter. This Timeless Child would still have the other 99% of their genes different from the Shibogans(sp?).

Yeah, Susan or The Master should have been the Timeless Child. The revelation certainly would have pushed Master off the deep end mentally. Given his inferiority complex to The Doctor has always been an underlying factor to his character. Ultimately though, I find this the least appealing Master since Eric Roberts. The fact he even wore a vague Purple and Green "Joker" suit in the finale really put my back up. In terms of Head Canon, I'd even put this Master before Derek Jacobi. He certainly isn't post-Missy, in his mentality.

Agreed with you there, this has been one of the worst Masters. He's just a mishmash of concepts that don't gel together--he acts like a rabid dog about to fly off the handle at any given moment, yet apparently he has the patience to take on an alter ego and maintain his cover for apparently decades and even work with the Doctor at least once before without playing his hand. And has the patience to go "the long way around" when the Doctor steals his TARDIS, spending decades of opportunities to help out his past selves' earlier attempts to take over the Earth. And then his costume is this buffoony Joker-wannabe outfit which also doesn't gel with his self-serious behavior. None of it matches up to create a "believable" character. This is easily the worst Master ever in terms of conceptualization.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

Now, they’re not even a Time Lord!

Well if you think about it, The Doctor is now the original Time Lord.

That's not how genetics work. One species splicing a few chromosomes into their own from another, does not make the former species retroactively the same thing as the latter. This Timeless Child would still have the other 99% of their genes different from the Shibogans(sp?).

That's the point, though. Everything that makes a "Time Lord" was spliced from the Timeless Child. Therein lies the distinction between a Time Lord and a Shibogan. Chibnall really didn't think this through.

Then again, the TV Movie "half-human" revelation, the Metacrisis Doctor and The War Doctor are all still canon too. So it is all up in the air and open for the next showrunner to cherry pick what they want to make in-continuity.

Personally I think Nu Who has been on the decline since Ecclestone left. Each subsequent Doctor having a handful of great stories to their names. Fugitive of The Judoon and The Haunting of Villa Diodati are my picks for Whitaker's run so far. I am hopeful with the news that 2/3 (or possibly all?) of the Companions are leaving with the Christmas special.

[Burn]

I don't get the reactions.

Hartnell was the first of a regeneration cycle. No biggie.

The Doctor is not actually from Gallifrey but was the catalyst for the growth of Gallifrey and the rise of the Time Lords.

Aside from being not from Gallifrey, the rest is pretty much lore as it's long been hinted that The Doctor was the reincation of The Other, the third founding member of Time Lord society.

None of this changes the last 50+ years of stories. Heck, if people want, they can bury their heads in the sand and forget the reveal, it doesn't change any of the previous stories.

(Except The Brain of Morbius)

Of course now the onus is on Chibnall to push forward. Will The Doctor try to seek out their true origins? Will Chibnall **** over The Daleks as he **** over the Time Lords and the Cybermen?

All in all, this last season was a massive improvement over the previous season, I still don't trust him to keep the momentum going though.

[TulioDude]

I haven't watched it yet but I heard that Gallefrey was destroyed,is it true?

[Burn]

I haven't watched it yet but I heard that Gallefrey was destroyed,is it true?

Planet still there, inhabitants are supposedly dead or converted to Cybermen

[AllNewSuperRobot]

So I was thinking on Collectables and The Doctor. The BBC doesn't seem to have tapped into the adult collector market as well as they could have by now. Look at NECA and their '89 Batman:



Or Majin Buu from S H Figuarts:



So why don't we have this? A high quality, photo-realistic figure of every Doctor (three, in the case of The First Doctor)? One for every companion. Or a line through time of the various Cybermen, from Mondasian to Lone and other such legacy monsters. Naturally Daleks are still a bit of rights quagmire with such merchandising but I doubt the Terry Nation estate would mind should demand prove sufficient.

[Burn]

It's been nine years since she left us, and now, the final story has been told.

[ZeroWolf]

As if it's been nine years

[Burn]

[Skritz]

So, I'm new to the Doctor Who thread but during the long months of the lockdown I've been listening to a lot of Big Finish production Doctor Who audio drama. Anyone else here has heard those or are people here purely into the TV show (which I've long given up on since the Moffat era, prefering to go back and watch Classic serials wherever I can)?

[JazZeke]

So, I'm new to the Doctor Who thread but during the long months of the lockdown I've been listening to a lot of Big Finish production Doctor Who audio drama. Anyone else here has heard those or are people here purely into the TV show (which I've long given up on since the Moffat era, prefering to go back and watch Classic serials wherever I can)?

I'm definitely a big fan of the Big Finish stuff, particularly the Eighth Doctor's stories!