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[Sabrblade]

I could think of several ways they could have gone with the relationship arc between Breakdown and Bulkhead besides having Breakdown become a good guy.

Now, before I list them, keep in mind that these aren't meant to be ideas that are considered "likeable" or "better", just mere alternatives to the aforementioned cliche.

That said:

They could have had Bulkhead and Breakdown decide to have a final showdown to the death, in which Bulkhead killed Breakdown, and then felt emptiness of revenge and murder afterward, like ho Miko learned in "Hurt".

Or they could have gone in reverse and had Breakdown kill Bulkhead in said fight, in which Breakdown would feel great and would become despised by all of Team Prime, who'd want to avenge Bulkhead's death.

Or they could have had said fight end with Bulkhead about to kill Breakdown, but then decide against it on his own, preferring not to become more like his nemesis and leaving Breakdown with a warning: "Now that we know who's the better of us, I'd suggest you back off from now on, lest you want me to finish the job next time, as I might be so generous next time. Now get out of here!" Strike a little fear into the heart of the bully. Basically the "Matrix vs. Megabyte" fight ending from ReBoot.

Or they could do the reverse and have Breakdown be the one about to kill Bulkhead, only for Bulkhead to be saved at the last minute by his allies coming in to lay a decisive killing blow to Breakdown before he could murder Bulkhead, like how Bumblebee killed Megatron as Megatron was about to Kill Optimus in "Deadlock".

Or they could have their fight to the death, in which Breakdown does get killed, but not by Bulkhead or by help from Bulkhead's allies, but inadvertently by Breakdown's own devices (like his cockiness or a weapon of his). Breakdown would make some mistake or miscalculation in their fight that would accidently yet ultimately make Breakdown responsible for his own demise. This would also rob Bulkhead of the chance to take Breakdown out himself, which he'd have to live with and get over afterward.

They could have had Bulkhead come to a point in which he'd realize that his rivalry with Breakdown was just petty and meaningless, and ultimately decide to put it behind him and no longer consider it a personal matter.

Or they could have done something similar to that, but go the extra mile actually having Bulkhead forgive Breakdown for whatever it is that got Breakdown under Bulkhead's skin, deciding to become the better man of the two in their feud.

They could have had Breakdown and Bulkhead realize that the source of their rivalry was a misunderstanding from long ago, in which a third party had manipulated them into hating each other, turning Breakdown's attention away from Bulkhead and towards this other party (depending on who this would be, the story could go anywhere from here). It would also turn Bulkhead's attention away from Breakdown.

And that's just to name a few.

[Dead Metal]

I could think of several ways they could have gone with the relationship arc between Breakdown and Bulkhead besides having Breakdown become a good guy.

Now, before I list them, keep in mind that these aren't meant to be ideas that are considered "likeable" or "better", just mere alternatives to the aforementioned cliche.

That said:

Ok, no other way to do it

Or they could do the reverse and have Breakdown be the one about to kill Bulkhead, only for Bulkhead to be saved at the last minute by his allies coming in to lay a decisive killing blow to Breakdown before he could murder Bulkhead, like how Bumblebee killed Megatron as Megatron was about to Kill Optimus in "Deadlock".


Or they could have their fight to the death, in which Breakdown does get killed, but not by Bulkhead or by help from Bulkhead's allies, but inadvertently by Breakdown's own devices (like his cockiness or a weapon of his). Breakdown would make some mistake or miscalculation in their fight that would accidently yet ultimately make Breakdown responsible for his own demise. This would also rob Bulkhead of the chance to take Breakdown out himself, which he'd have to live with and get over afterward.

These could work, but still end with Breakdown being dead. And would still be kinda clishe, since they would be against "his natural true rival".

They could have had Bulkhead and Breakdown decide to have a final showdown to the death, in which Bulkhead killed Breakdown, and then felt emptiness of revenge and murder afterward, like ho Miko learned in "Hurt".

Or they could have gone in reverse and had Breakdown kill Bulkhead in said fight, in which Breakdown would feel great and would become despised by all of Team Prime, who'd want to avenge Bulkhead's death.

Or they could have had said fight end with Bulkhead about to kill Breakdown, but then decide against it on his own, preferring not to become more like his nemesis and leaving Breakdown with a warning: "Now that we know who's the better of us, I'd suggest you back off from now on, lest you want me to finish the job next time, as I might be so generous next time. Now get out of here!" Strike a little fear into the heart of the bully. Basically the "Matrix vs. Megabyte" fight ending from ReBoot.

They could have had Bulkhead come to a point in which he'd realize that his rivalry with Breakdown was just petty and meaningless, and ultimately decide to put it behind him and no longer consider it a personal matter.

Or they could have done something similar to that, but go the extra mile actually having Bulkhead forgive Breakdown for whatever it is that got Breakdown under Bulkhead's skin, deciding to become the better man of the two in their feud.

They could have had Breakdown and Bulkhead realize that the source of their rivalry was a misunderstanding from long ago, in which a third party had manipulated them into hating each other, turning Breakdown's attention away from Bulkhead and towards this other party (depending on who this would be, the story could go anywhere from here). It would also turn Bulkhead's attention away from Breakdown.

And that's just to name a few.

Dude, you do remember that this is Transformers right? You know, the Decepticons vs the Autobots. Bulkhead is an Autobot and Breakdown was a Decepticon, they would try to kill each other history or no history. So Bulkhead forgiving Breakdown does f**k all, since they would still be on opposing sides, in a war, to the death. Same goes for the third party, which in this case would be the war.

[Sabrblade]

The personal element between the two is what would be overcome. Take that out of the equation in the end and their story is complete. They'd still fight each other afterward, but they'd be less inclined to just fight only each other and would be more open to fighting other opponents on the battlefield.

Notice how every time they met each other in fights between several members of both teams, one or both of them would make it a point to fight each other because of that personal element between the two. Once that's overcome, however, the fights would be given more variety as those two would no longer be so willing to pulverize just each other specifically over all other combatants. Breakdown could be more willing to go for Arcee or Bumblebee or even Optimus, while Bulkhead could instead focus on fighting Knock Out or Starscream or even Megatron.

It's because of that personal element between the two that makes all of the fights they partake in become predictable and expected to have those two go specifically after each other. But once their story is concluded, the personal element would have met its purpose accordingly in a manner that would reasonably have it end without hastily forcing it out of the picture like it ultimately was.

[kaijuguy19]

I wonder if they planned this same way of stupid plot handeling on the rest of the arcs in Prime the same way they did Breakdown's or were they planned out longer at first but then were made to cut short by Hasbro? I wouldn't be too shocked if it was but all the same I'd like to know.

Well, they did mention that the reason season 2 itself was put on fast forward was because Hasbro sprung the Predacons on them at the eleventh hour, forcing them to wrap up or cut short all of their three-to-four years of story material by that season's end, to make room for the Predacons in season 3.

EDIT: Ninja'd by viruscarnage.

That's what I thought at first with Breakdown too but now hearing about the real reason I can't help but wonder if the same did indeed happen to the rest of the arcs. If not then at least there's a valid if disapointing reason for them being cut short.

[Sabrblade]

I get the feeling that a lot of these arcs wouldn't feel so cut short if the first season hadn't dawdled around so much wasting time on one-off episodes that kept playing it safe so much instead trying to get the story going.

[Dead Metal]

The personal element between the two is what would be overcome. Take that out of the equation in the end and their story is complete. They'd still fight each other afterward, but they'd be less inclined to just fight only each other and would be more open to fighting other opponents on the battlefield.

Notice how every time they met each other in fights between several members of both teams, one or both of them would make it a point to fight each other because of that personal element between the two. Once that's overcome, however, the fights would be given more variety as those two would no longer be so willing to pulverize just each other specifically over all other combatants. Breakdown could be more willing to go for Arcee or Bumblebee or even Optimus, while Bulkhead could instead focus on fighting Knock Out or Starscream or even Megatron.

It's because of that personal element between the two that makes all of the fights they partake in become predictable and expected to have those two go specifically after each other. But once their story is concluded, the personal element would have met its purpose accordingly in a manner that would reasonably have it end without hastily forcing it out of the picture like it ultimately was.

But you see, this element was overcome and the fights where prevented from becoming predictable, because you know, Breakdown's dead.

And all that would still have been nothing but treading worn-out boring ground.

[Shadowman]

The personal element between the two is what would be overcome. Take that out of the equation in the end and their story is complete. They'd still fight each other afterward, but they'd be less inclined to just fight only each other and would be more open to fighting other opponents on the battlefield.

Notice how every time they met each other in fights between several members of both teams, one or both of them would make it a point to fight each other because of that personal element between the two. Once that's overcome, however, the fights would be given more variety as those two would no longer be so willing to pulverize just each other specifically over all other combatants. Breakdown could be more willing to go for Arcee or Bumblebee or even Optimus, while Bulkhead could instead focus on fighting Knock Out or Starscream or even Megatron.

It's because of that personal element between the two that makes all of the fights they partake in become predictable and expected to have those two go specifically after each other. But once their story is concluded, the personal element would have met its purpose accordingly in a manner that would reasonably have it end without hastily forcing it out of the picture like it ultimately was.

But you see, this element was overcome and the fights where prevented from becoming predictable, because you know, Breakdown's dead.

And all that would still have been nothing but treading worn-out boring ground.

Better than the anti-climax they gave us.

[Sabrblade]

Like Shadowman said, it's not that it wasn't overcome, but that it was overcome poorly.


Oh, and there's one more alternative I forgot to mention:

They could have had Bulkhead ultimately "apprehend" Breakdown and have him be "tried" for his crimes by Optimus (who, being the Prime--the highest Autobot position and the only one around at the time with any kind of political authority--would have the power to do so) who would be the one to decide his fate.

[spongedude93]

Reading over the last couple posts its beginning to become very clear to me why Breakdown played out the way he did. Breakdown as a character existed solely to fight Bulkhead. Thats it. The writers needed a big guy on the Deceptions to square off against the Autobots own bruiser. One throw away line; "We have a history" does not obligate the writers to expand on what ever past isn't there, it let them give some vague reason for the two to always be the ones exchanging fists. Breakdown was not a deep character. A trait shared by almost all other Deceptions this series with exception of Megatron at the end and maybe Starscream.

[Sabrblade]

One throw away line; "We have a history" does not obligate the writers to expand on what ever past isn't there, it let them give some vague reason for the two to always be the ones exchanging fists.

It wasn't just that line, but their intimate familiarity and hatred toward each other.

Animated did the same "Decepticon bruiser to fight Bulkhead" thing with Lugnut, only they didn't give Lugnut and Bulkhead any kind of specific reason to get them to fight each other, nor did they need to give them one. They just ended up fighting each other anyway (probably because they each saw that the other would put up the most decent fight for them).

There was no need for anything personal to be inserted to get them to fight in that version, and yet they still ended up fighting each other there. And, even without this personal element, their fights were still entertaining.

[spongedude93]

And, even without this personal element, their fights were still entertaining.

I agree with this

[Sabrblade]

And, even without this personal element, their fights were still entertaining.

I agree with this

Lugnut: "FOOL! NO ONE challenges the rule of MEGATRON! In the name of the GLORIOUS Decepticon race, I--!"
*Bulkhead presses the POKE's button with his wrecking ball, sending Lugnut flying*
Bulkhead (agitated): "You talk too much!"

[Dead Metal]

So I've been reading the Covenant little by little lately, since I've had other much more exiting things to read first.
So I got to the part there Thirteen decides he wants to be reborn as someone else and enters the Allspark to do so.
As you might have noticed back in the announcement thread I received a huge spoiler on Thirteen by this desperate dickhead who's too cheap to buy the book but wants to know everything in it and had to know yesterday. So just in case you haven't received your copy yet, or want to wait and don't want to be spoilered I'm going to make use of this fabulous new tech we have called the spoiler tags.
So we know Thirteen is Optimus Prime, and I just got to the part in which he enters the Allspark with Onyx and Micronus. And he does this so that he can be reborn in the form of a new "normal" Cybertronian, who'll end up being Orion Pax and later Optimus Prime.

Seeing how this is before any Cybertronian is yet to be born and there will be the Predacons before the Cataclysm and then we'll have the stuff that leads up to the stuff that leads up to the stuff that leads up to the WFC era. And we know Optimus has no memory of how it was like before he was bore into his caste and function of a data clerk, I assume it's save to say that he gets reborn on a regular basis. Which brings me to the ending of Predacons Rising, we see Optimus plunging himself into the Allspark and "dying", however seeing how he was alive when that happened and seeing how he did it just now in the Covenant so that he could be reborn, I would say he's not dead and he'll be reborn once again. I believe he did the exact same thing on multiple occasions between this event and the Great War.

His reasoning for doing this in the book (wanting to experience life as one of the new breed of Cybertronians) would also explain his function as a data clerk before the war, basically going all NSA on Cybertron and collecting data on everything then deciding what is important and has historical value or something.

Also, Megatronus's profile pic looks a heck of a lot like WFC Starscream, only with a different darker colour scheme and a spikier head.

[Sabrblade]

Just keep reading, man.

[Avensis-Mahiya]

But my issue with their treatment of Breakdown is how they introduced him as this guy who was strongly implied to bring with him something substantial to the story, and yet ultimately brought nothing of the sort.

(cut)

TL:DR - He came in as Bulkhead's rival. We ask "What's the story of their rivalry?" Bulkhead says "We have a history." We say "Alright, so what's their history? And how will their story play out?" Show says "Stay tuned." We stay tuned. He keeps appearing, we keep asking. Show doesn't answer, so we wait and see. Still no answers. Episode 33 happens. We are bummed, for Breakdown turned out to be nothing more than a tease.

And the same could be said about their deciding not to properly conclude Airachnid's story. Her story with Arcee was similarly mistreated.

(cut)

No character growth for her, no resolution for Arcee's thirst for vengeance, no proper send off to Airachnid whatsoever. Just a complete and utter surrender by the writers.

Yeah, I hate to say it, but I agree with you on your points. I would have loved to have seen what Bulkhead and Breakdown's history was and for Airachnid to get a proper (read: badass) sendoff. I love Prime, I really do, but sometimes they pull stuff like this and it makes me wonder.

[kaijuguy19]

While it wasn't the epic conclusion I've wanted for Airachnid's arc I don't think it was as bad as how Breakdown's was handled. At least she got some form of closure along with Silas. IT wasn't much yes but unlike Breakdown which was never resolved we have some form of her arc in this part of the story at least ended.

Anyway is there anything about Prime that you think did better then the rest of the other TF series aside from the animation and graphics?

Mine would be that it's the first series since Beast Wars and Beast Machines that actually have female Cybertronians that are actually characters in their own right instead of just being there just for the sake of being there,used as plot devices or cannon fodder. This is the first series that actually made me like someone named Arcee and made me give legit care for her even if she's not perfect and Airachnid at times have soke good moments. This is something even Animated didn't do. I hope future series will take notes about how to make female Cybertronians have larger roles.

[VirusCarnage]

Anyway is there anything about Prime that you think did better then the rest of the other TF series aside from the animation and graphics?

The fight scenes (I guess it technically falls into the animation and graphics category) and voice acting are better then any other series I've seen in my honest opinion.

[Sabrblade]

The best Arcee, the best-developed Starscream, the best "character to use the name 'Smokescreen'", the best Nemesis, the best "government official human ally" in Fowler, definitely the best Predaking (since he actually had a personality compared to the big bad "RAWR!" all-monster G1 Predaking)...

I wanna also say the best "campy Decepticon" in Knock Out, but there's been so many good ones of that over the years (which are hard to come to mind atm) that I can't fully consider that at this point.

The voice acting, while excellent, is tied with several other TF cartoons because nearly every English-language TF cartoon has had excellent voice acting. About the only ones that haven't are the Unicron Trilogy (though Cybertron really really tried to be better at this than the first two), the Omni Productions dubs of the Japanese G1 cartoons, the Playskool Go-Bots cartoon, and maybe Robots in Disguise (but you can tell that they were at least trying to make the best of what they had to work with in that show).

Let us also keep in mind that a character's voice and the acting of said voice aren't completely mutually exclusive. For instance, Garry Chalk can do a great Optimus voice, but in the Armada episode that debuted Thrust and Jetfire, his acting of that voice was atrocious. Conversely, RiD Megatron/Galvatron had an annoying voice, but Daniel Riordan's acting of that voice was very fitting for his portrayal of the character. So it helps to distinguish between the voice and the voice acting, and the latter of which has been mostly quite good in plenty of TF cartoons.

[PrymeStriker]

Anyway is there anything about Prime that you think did better then the rest of the other TF series aside from the animation and graphics?

Best Wheeljack
Best Soundwave
Best Smokescreen
Best Predaking
Best Breakdown...I don't mean that as being very well developed. It's just....no one will appreciate Breakdown like I do.

Best Starscream arc (I still prefer Armada Starscream over them all)
Best Ultra Magnus
Best use of Predacon lore.
Best Dreadwing
Best Ratchet

Incredible voice acting (Wheeljack, Starscream, Smokescreen, Breakdown, Ratchet, Arcee, Bulkhead, Dreadwing, etc.)

Superb story writing.

Best use of character deaths.

Knock Out.

Best incorporation of in-series upgrades and color scheme alternations.

Best design aesthetic.

On top of that, the animation and graphics as you said.

Transformers Prime is #1, baby.

[Manterax Prime]

I still like Beast Wars, Animated, Masterforce, and Rescue Bots better than Prime, while Beast Machines and RiD are tied with Prime for me (and I love those two shows ).

This is how I personally rate each show:
1. Beast Wars
2. Prime & Animated
3. Rescue Bots
4. Cybertron
5. G1
6. RiD
7. Beast Machines
8. Armada
9. Energon

Just my personal opinion; everyone's free to their own.

My list:

1. Beast Wars
2. Animated
3. Masterforce & Rescue Bots
4. Beast Machines, Robots in Disguise, and Prime
5. Cybertron
6. The Headmasters
7. G1, Armada, and Victory
8. Go-Bots
9. Energon

(No inclusion of Beast Wars II or Neo since I haven't seen enough of either to make a fair judgement of either yet).

I think the three of us can agree that Beast Wars was, is, and forever will be THE BEST TRANSFORMERS SERIES OF ALL TIME!!!!!

Prime comes in 2nd place for me. I find a lot of things in the aligned universe interesting. Including some of the 13 Primes (Quintus being creator of the Quintessons, effectively making them cybertronian by proxy)

However, the whole Optimus Prime is the 13th Prime thing is just one big cop out that screams laziness.

[Shadowman]

Prime comes in 2nd place for me. I find a lot of things in the aligned universe interesting. Including some of the 13 Primes (Quintus being creator of the Quintessons, effectively making them cybertronian by proxy)

Actually the concept of the Original 13 predates Aligned.

However, the whole Optimus Prime is the 13th Prime thing is just one big cop out that screams laziness.

Eh, not so much for me. Mostly because, technically speaking, he isn't. And he is. Kind of like the Doctor, many faces, many personalities, but really it's just the one guy.

Incidentally, Optimus as we know him doesn't get the benefits of being one of the 13, namely being a Multiversal Singularity.

[Sabrblade]

Oy, Optimus's revelation in the Covenant made many heads roll. So much so that TFWiki had literally no choice but to make separate lists for the Thirteen of the Multiverse and the Thirteen of the Aligned continuity, treating them as separate groups since the Aligned Thirteen went so far against what the mutliversal nature of the Thirteen had been established to be prior to the Aligned continuity's existence. Things like the inclusion of Alpha Trion and Optimus Prime into their ranks, and the exclusion of Logos Prime, just made the two groups completely irreconcilable.

Therefore, it is far less confusing to just think of there being two distinct groups out there. One for the multiverse who are singularities and contain Logos Prime among them, and one for the Aligned continuity who are not singularities, lack Logos Prime, having A3 and Optimus, and who have a non-evil The Fallen (whom the multiverse definitely established as being evil in that version).

As for Optimus's being one of them, he was originally, then he sacrificed his life to be reincarnated as a young ordinary bot with no memories of his past (Orion Pax), and only received all of his original life's memories when he got the Matrix of Leadership from Cybertron's Core. In other words, rather than granting Orion Pax the power and nature of being a Prime, the Matrix simply acted as a memory card and did to Orion Pax what the Silver Crystal did to Sailor Moon (a similar reincarnated character).

[SlyTF1]

Oy, Optimus's revelation in the Covenant made many heads roll. So much so that TFWiki had literally no choice but to make separate lists for the Thirteen of the Multiverse and the Thirteen of the Aligned continuity, treating them as separate groups since the Aligned Thirteen went so far against what the mutliversal nature of the Thirteen had been established to be prior to the Aligned continuity's existence. Things like the inclusion of Alpha Trion and Optimus Prime into their ranks, and the exclusion of Logos Prime, just made the two groups completely irreconcilable.

Therefore, it is far less confusing to just think of there being two distinct groups out there. One for the multiverse who are singularities and contain Logos Prime among them, and one for the Aligned continuity who are not singularities, lack Logos Prime, having A3 and Optimus, and who have a non-evil The Fallen (whom the multiverse definitely established as being evil in that version).

As for Optimus's being one of them, he was originally, then he sacrificed his life to be reincarnated as a young ordinary bot with no memories of his past (Orion Pax), and only received all of his original life's memories when he got the Matrix of Leadership from Cybertron's Core. In other words, rather than granting Orion Pax the power and nature of being a Prime, the Matrix simply acted as a memory card and did to Orion Pax what the Silver Crystal did to Sailor Moon (a similar reincarnated character).

I'm convinced this "Aligned" continuity is a multiverse all in its own. WFC and FOC are supposed to take place in the same continuity as Prime, but a lot of it doesn't even add up.

[Sabrblade]

I'm convinced this "Aligned" continuity is a multiverse all in its own.

It is outside the main multiversal, yeah (as hinted by both TransTech Rhinox and the bio for TCC Slipstream)

WFC and FOC are supposed to take place in the same continuity as Prime, but a lot of it doesn't even add up.

I don't see how so. Everything outside the games and cartoons seem to put a lot of effort into putting the pieces together well enough.

[njb902]

Oy, Optimus's revelation in the Covenant made many heads roll. So much so that TFWiki had literally no choice but to make separate lists for the Thirteen of the Multiverse and the Thirteen of the Aligned continuity, treating them as separate groups since the Aligned Thirteen went so far against what the mutliversal nature of the Thirteen had been established to be prior to the Aligned continuity's existence. Things like the inclusion of Alpha Trion and Optimus Prime into their ranks, and the exclusion of Logos Prime, just made the two groups completely irreconcilable.

Therefore, it is far less confusing to just think of there being two distinct groups out there. One for the multiverse who are singularities and contain Logos Prime among them, and one for the Aligned continuity who are not singularities, lack Logos Prime, having A3 and Optimus, and who have a non-evil The Fallen (whom the multiverse definitely established as being evil in that version).

As for Optimus's being one of them, he was originally, then he sacrificed his life to be reincarnated as a young ordinary bot with no memories of his past (Orion Pax), and only received all of his original life's memories when he got the Matrix of Leadership from Cybertron's Core. In other words, rather than granting Orion Pax the power and nature of being a Prime, the Matrix simply acted as a memory card and did to Orion Pax what the Silver Crystal did to Sailor Moon (a similar reincarnated character).

Which just makes exiles even crappier.

Ps &@$& my phone's auto correct.