The Energon Pub

I think it's time some people realised that IDW has gone off the range and stopped paying attention to them. They are at best described as "a bit silly".

I 'might' buy the idea that the Matrix in the persona of the "The Oracle of Cybertron" or "after Over-Run merged with it" or even as Vector Sigma could be a sentient being. but at best it's mind is like a childs or it's made of pure emotion and not rational thought.

I suppose one could (at a stretch) say that the Matrix is a thing in a round about way but you open up all sorts of can'o worms if you go there (which is why I'd really prefer that IDW showed a bit more self restraint).

If for example you postulate that the Matrix is a fully sentient being then - the inference of that is that When Optronix/Orion Pax or whoever becomes Optimus Prime they are essentially having their mind hijacked - likewise when Hotr Rod become Rodimus Prime. I'm not comfortable with that at all.

Alternatively you might be able to say that it's an emergent spark that gains sentience though the combined experience of the dozen or so Prime who have used it previously culminating in true sentience either soon after Optimus or Rodimus used it.

The advantage to that is it makes it easier to come up with means to resurrect Optimus from the dead using it that makes some sort of sense it also puts the back story in place of how you might get the Oracle of Cybertron as a thing.

But I think it's a whole area filled with man-traps best not stepped in really.

It will definitely be interesting to see how IDW incorporates and expands on the Primes, and Matrices, over the next year.For me, I also don't see the Primes as individual, sentient beings either -- not like Optimus, anyway. For HasBrah it'll be simple -- like the Titan Masters, it'll be just another things the Bots do to keep up with the Cons.

I'm personally very curious to see how they'll handle Predaking. IDW has had to advertise every Titan so far, and Predaking did show up recently in the IDW continuity; but then he, uh, died.

PredaKing wasn't quite dead - and got better!

By the power of the Primes. Or something.

Or they could devote a flashback issue to Predaking, set in the past.

Sabrblade wrote:Or they could devote a flashback issue to Predaking, set in the past.

But when he appeared in his death issue, the implication was that the Predacons had only just gotten the ability to combine. So without some heavy retconning, there's not much room.

RAR wrote:I think it's time some people realised that IDW has gone off the range and stopped paying attention to them. They are at best described as "a bit silly".

I 'might' buy the idea that the Matrix in the persona of the "The Oracle of Cybertron" or "after Over-Run merged with it" or even as Vector Sigma could be a sentient being. but at best it's mind is like a childs or it's made of pure emotion and not rational thought.

I suppose one could (at a stretch) say that the Matrix is a thing in a round about way but you open up all sorts of can'o worms if you go there (which is why I'd really prefer that IDW showed a bit more self restraint). etc

Is there something specific you are referring to? IDW certainly hasn't portrayed the Matrix as a sapient being.

That's assuming IDW do anything. They may not. Their Titan Masters stuff was almost a blink and you'll miss it. What they did probably had very little impact on the sales of the line.

Well, IDW always does something. They always have something for each new Titan (Metroplex in Dark Cybertron, Devastator in Combiner Wars, Fortress Maximus in Titans Return and Trypticon in Salvation) and always have a tie-in miniseries for a new line (as noted, Combiner Wars and Titans Return had their own little series and there was quite a bit of toyline tie-in with Dark Cybertron even if not directly a toyline event in and of itself). The fan-voted characters also get some sort of prevalence as seen with Victorion and Windblade, too; so I'd expect something to do with Optimus Primal as well. And finally, they tend to introduce characters or put pre-existing characters in new bodies; like we saw during and before Dark Cybertron with Armada Starscream, Scoop, Rattrap, Crosscut etc. and the Combaticons in TAAO. Those sort of effects tend to just be for their 'main' ongoing, RiD/ex-RiD/OP though, with MTMTE/LL feeling little to no impact.

So, in short: expect something advertising Predaking, expect a POTP mini perhaps featuring Optimus Primal, and expect characters like Jazz, the Dinobots and Moonracer to suddenly look quite a bit like their current toys. Heck, we've already seen the latter happen -- Starscream's design in TAAO was based on his POTP Voyager, months before the toy was even revealed!

I think it's less advertising and more "hey look! We're paying attention to the toyline! Please don't take the license back"

True. Advertising is a more apt description of what the Marvel comics were

Kurona wrote:True. Advertising is a more apt description of what the Marvel comics were

And they did that well, especially with lesser known toys getting bigger roles and interesting storylines, like the Wreckers, the Matrix Quest and Klo. But that's for a different thread.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Kurona wrote:True. Advertising is a more apt description of what the Marvel comics were

And they did that well, especially with lesser known toys getting bigger roles and interesting storylines, like the Wreckers, the Matrix Quest and Klo. But that's for a different thread.

Exactly.

Troll fail Kurona, troll fail.

Man, the one time I get a cheap shot in someone takes the blow for you...

Still, point stands: we'll get something for POTP and something for Predaking.

I didn't really make my point well the core of what I was saying is that I wish that any fiction would take a lot of care to not make it "appear" that the Matrix is puppeting the person it chose (I assume it's OK to call a Transformer a person).

One could easily get the wrong impression that Orion Pax died (or was suppressed) when the Matrix was installed - an impression one doesn't get if Optimus is a pre-existing character. the way the toyline is structured give the impression intentional or not that removing the Matrix removes Rodimus and Optimus Prime's powers completely downgrading them to a lesser self. I don't think that was the impression them meant to give - but I can see some people new to the franchise thinking that Optimus is like some sort of Digimon who morphs into a more powerful form by the application of
a power up and that the process is reversible.

I personally prefer the Matrix to be some sort of semi-sentient embodiment of combined wisdom and a quasi-religious artefact. If only as seeing it more like that can also make it a vessel of learning for the Transformers but also fro Primus in turn. But I don't want to jump to deep down the rabbit hole with that - Lets just say I'm thinking about some plot elements present in the old Marvel Comics and in Beast Machines to some degree.

----

The other thing on my mind with this franchise is what they plan to do or say with regard to Alpha Trion.

RAR wrote:I didn't really make my point well the core of what I was saying is that I wish that any fiction would take a lot of care to not make it "appear" that the Matrix is puppeting the person it chose (I assume it's OK to call a Transformer a person).

What fiction has treated the Matrix in that way, though?

This also seems more like a topic for an IDW thread, since I have no idea what it has to do with POTP.

I'm really missing the mark here again it seems.

I'm talking about the 'Evolution' gimmick of the toys and speculating it's intended to represent a moment in time or a regular occurrence for Orion Pax to Become Optimus and then Orion and then Optimus and so on & On.... (likewise Hot Rod / Rodimus) Then I just observed that if that is the case there is some ramifications of how one would see the function or ability of a Matrix to do that.

The IDW genderal comment was directed as a reply to an earlier post.
Basically I had them in mind when the thoughts crossed my mind of the story implication of evolution/devolution as a play pattern, either in fiction terms or just in general as it applies to how the Characters are intended to be seen or played with by the consumer by Hasbro.

Since intention doesn't always jell with the physical toy or the fiction - sometimes they wildly differ (like Beast Hunters).

So I guess I'm just pondering on what Hasbro is thinking we are supposed to think about the Evolution gimmick in general in terms of both a toy-story concept and as an idea and in a broader - how does this effect the Transformers Universe sense.

RAR wrote:I'm really missing the mark here again it seems.

I'm talking about the 'Evolution' gimmick of the toys and speculating it's intended to represent a moment in time or a regular occurrence for Orion Pax to Become Optimus and then Orion and then Optimus and so on & On.... (likewise Hot Rod / Rodimus) Then I just observed that if that is the case there is some ramifications of how one would see the function or ability of a Matrix to do that.

The IDW genderal comment was directed as a reply to an earlier post.
Basically I had them in mind when the thoughts crossed my mind of the story implication of evolution/devolution as a play pattern, either in fiction terms or just in general as it applies to how the Characters are intended to be seen or played with by the consumer by Hasbro.

Since intention doesn't always jell with the physical toy or the fiction - sometimes they wildly differ (like Beast Hunters).

So I guess I'm just pondering on what Hasbro is thinking we are supposed to think about the Evolution gimmick in general in terms of both a toy-story concept and as an idea and in a broader - how does this effect the Transformers Universe sense.

The gimmick is basically what we saw happen in Transformers: The Movie. Hot Rod got the Matrix and it evolved him into a bigger and stronger form with a new name, Rodimus Prime. Whenever he'd lose the Matrix in Season 3, his bigger and stronger Rodimus Prime form would devolve back to his original smaller Hot Rod form. There's no reason to assume that there's any mind-possession or puppeteering involved. It's basically just the Transformers equivalent of "Mario + Super Mushroom = Super Mario" in toy gimmick form.

Sabrblade wrote:

RAR wrote:I'm really missing the mark here again it seems.

I'm talking about the 'Evolution' gimmick of the toys and speculating it's intended to represent a moment in time or a regular occurrence for Orion Pax to Become Optimus and then Orion and then Optimus and so on & On.... (likewise Hot Rod / Rodimus) Then I just observed that if that is the case there is some ramifications of how one would see the function or ability of a Matrix to do that.

The IDW genderal comment was directed as a reply to an earlier post.
Basically I had them in mind when the thoughts crossed my mind of the story implication of evolution/devolution as a play pattern, either in fiction terms or just in general as it applies to how the Characters are intended to be seen or played with by the consumer by Hasbro.

Since intention doesn't always jell with the physical toy or the fiction - sometimes they wildly differ (like Beast Hunters).

So I guess I'm just pondering on what Hasbro is thinking we are supposed to think about the Evolution gimmick in general in terms of both a toy-story concept and as an idea and in a broader - how does this effect the Transformers Universe sense.

The gimmick is basically what we saw happen in Transformers: The Movie. Hot Rod got the Matrix and it evolved him into a bigger and stronger form with a new name, Rodimus Prime. Whenever he'd lose the Matrix in Season 3, his bigger and stronger Rodimus Prime form would devolve back to his original smaller Hot Rod form. There's no reason to assume that there's any mind-possession or puppeteering involved. It's basically just the Transformers equivalent of "Mario + Super Mushroom = Super Mario" in toy gimmick form.

In fiction, it basically boils down to "whoever has the Matrix is the 13th and final Prime". I believe in the IDW comics the Torchbearers, especially Pyra Magna, have a special interest in whoever that may be, so that aspect is already in place.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

RAR wrote:I'm really missing the mark here again it seems.

I'm talking about the 'Evolution' gimmick of the toys and speculating it's intended to represent a moment in time or a regular occurrence for Orion Pax to Become Optimus and then Orion and then Optimus and so on & On.... (likewise Hot Rod / Rodimus) Then I just observed that if that is the case there is some ramifications of how one would see the function or ability of a Matrix to do that.

The IDW genderal comment was directed as a reply to an earlier post.
Basically I had them in mind when the thoughts crossed my mind of the story implication of evolution/devolution as a play pattern, either in fiction terms or just in general as it applies to how the Characters are intended to be seen or played with by the consumer by Hasbro.

Since intention doesn't always jell with the physical toy or the fiction - sometimes they wildly differ (like Beast Hunters).

So I guess I'm just pondering on what Hasbro is thinking we are supposed to think about the Evolution gimmick in general in terms of both a toy-story concept and as an idea and in a broader - how does this effect the Transformers Universe sense.

The gimmick is basically what we saw happen in Transformers: The Movie. Hot Rod got the Matrix and it evolved him into a bigger and stronger form with a new name, Rodimus Prime. Whenever he'd lose the Matrix in Season 3, his bigger and stronger Rodimus Prime form would devolve back to his original smaller Hot Rod form. There's no reason to assume that there's any mind-possession or puppeteering involved. It's basically just the Transformers equivalent of "Mario + Super Mushroom = Super Mario" in toy gimmick form.

In fiction, it basically boils down to "whoever has the Matrix is the 13th and final Prime". I believe in the IDW comics the Torchbearers, especially Pyra Magna, have a special interest in whoever that may be, so that aspect is already in place.

on the flip side i would like to see the same thing with decepticons like how some got evolved by unicron

One thing to note, is that Optimus Prime may be part of the Thirteen in the Aligned Continuity, the IDW one does not per se. Instead, we have the Arisen: that is the one who's represented by the Matrix of Leadership, and could be anyone.

Speaking of Primes, another has been (accidentally) confirmed: Onyx Prime



Rather fitting for Skrapnel, as he's the Beast Mode Prime.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:One thing to note, is that Optimus Prime may be part of the Thirteen in the Aligned Continuity, the IDW one does not per se. Instead, we have the Arisen: that is the one who's represented by the Matrix of Leadership, and could be anyone.

Speaking of Primes, another has been (accidentally) confirmed: Onyx Prime



Rather fitting for Skrapnel, as he's the Beast Mode Prime.

Skrapnel also has a Liege Maximo card. The cards are gonna come with every PotP toys packed at random, with each figure coming with a card for a different Prime. So anyone who wants to collect all the Prime cards for each figure is gonna have to do some double-dipping to get all the Prime cards for every figure.

Sabrblade wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:One thing to note, is that Optimus Prime may be part of the Thirteen in the Aligned Continuity, the IDW one does not per se. Instead, we have the Arisen: that is the one who's represented by the Matrix of Leadership, and could be anyone.

Speaking of Primes, another has been (accidentally) confirmed: Onyx Prime



Rather fitting for Skrapnel, as he's the Beast Mode Prime.

Skrapnel also has a Liege Maximo card. The cards are gonna come with every PotP toys packed at random, with each figure coming with a card for a different Prime. So anyone who wants to collect all the Prime cards for each figure is gonna have to do some double-dipping to get all the Prime cards for every figure.

Heck, there's gonna be tridecadipping going on if this is correct. I pity the poor variant collectors...

Qwan wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:One thing to note, is that Optimus Prime may be part of the Thirteen in the Aligned Continuity, the IDW one does not per se. Instead, we have the Arisen: that is the one who's represented by the Matrix of Leadership, and could be anyone.

Speaking of Primes, another has been (accidentally) confirmed: Onyx Prime



Rather fitting for Skrapnel, as he's the Beast Mode Prime.

Skrapnel also has a Liege Maximo card. The cards are gonna come with every PotP toys packed at random, with each figure coming with a card for a different Prime. So anyone who wants to collect all the Prime cards for each figure is gonna have to do some double-dipping to get all the Prime cards for every figure.

Heck, there's gonna be tridecadipping going on if this is correct. I pity the poor variant collectors...

I thought the Liege Maximo card in the same gallery was for Windcharger.