Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

There's usually a limited number of slots for new Leader molds per line. Hasbro rarely goes beyond 3 new ones. And apparently they liked Brawl more.

[noctorro]

I'm only interested in the Constructicons. If they make Mixmaster better then I'm fine.
Not interested in almost all of the others. Jetfire's an improvement but the only good thing is the altmode just like in the film. He should stay a jet and not talk.

[megatronus]

I'm super annoyed about new Prime. Or rather, that new Prime makes old Prime obsolete.

If there's going to be a release within 6 months that makes another figure obsolete, they should not be releasing that obsolete figure. It's not Hasbro's intention, but it breeds distrust & resentment.

[william-james88]

I'm super annoyed about new Prime. Or rather, that new Prime makes old Prime obsolete.

If there's going to be a release within 6 months that makes another figure obsolete, they should not be releasing that obsolete figure. It's not Hasbro's intention, but it breeds distrust & resentment.

Agreed 100%. And the now obsolete Prime was even rereleased with Wave 4 Voyager Ironhide.

[megatronus]

I'm super annoyed about new Prime. Or rather, that new Prime makes old Prime obsolete.

If there's going to be a release within 6 months that makes another figure obsolete, they should not be releasing that obsolete figure. It's not Hasbro's intention, but it breeds distrust & resentment.

Agreed 100%. And the now obsolete Prime was even rereleased with Wave 4 Voyager Ironhide.

Insult to injury!

[Carnivius_Prime]

If there's going to be a release within 6 months that makes another figure obsolete, they should not be releasing that obsolete figure. It's not Hasbro's intention, but it breeds distrust & resentment.

Six months? I bought my Optimus Prime back in April so it's already more than six months and the new one isn't out yet. I don't know if Hasbro intended to make it 'obselete' so kind of hard to go back in time and not release it.

I still love my V1 SS Prime. The new one looks better in many ways but the current one has given me much entertainment these past nine months. It poses beautifully and balances so damn well. If it does indeed become 'obsolete' well, it's been a more fun purchase than many others I have made in recent years and looking forward to similar enjoyment with the new one.

[megatronus]

If there's going to be a release within 6 months that makes another figure obsolete, they should not be releasing that obsolete figure. It's not Hasbro's intention, but it breeds distrust & resentment.

Six months? I bought my Optimus Prime back in April so it's already more than six months and the new one isn't out yet. I don't know if Hasbro intended to make it 'obselete' so kind of hard to go back in time and not release it.

I still love my V1 SS Prime. The new one looks better in many ways but the current one has given me much entertainment these past nine months. It poses beautifully and balances so damn well. If it does indeed become 'obsolete' well, it's been a more fun purchase than many others I have made in recent years and looking forward to similar enjoyment with the new one.

Development of these toys takes years, and you can bet that if this new Prime were released first, sales for the original one release earlier this year would be depressed. This was planned.

You might be entertained, which is great, but I'm annoyed that I'm being pushed into yet another voyager Prime purchase.

[Carnivius_Prime]

Development of these toys takes years, and you can bet that if this new Prime were released first, sales for the original one release earlier this year would be depressed. This was planned.

You might be entertained, which is great, but I'm annoyed that I'm being pushed into yet another voyager Prime purchase.

Don't think either of us knows exactly how Hasbro/Takara plans, develops and releases these figures though. And the new one is basically a retool of the first rather than a completely new mold so could possibly have been developed from feedback to the first one and seeing the success of the first wave of figures then made them decide to go ahead with new Jetfire and making sure the new one could combine with it? I dunno. I'm not all that bothered. I got my money's worth from the first figure which is more than i can say for a lot of transformer figures over the years and has certainly been one of my most fave action figures in general to actually play about with rather than just buy it and plonk it on the shelf rarely to ever be touched. Anyways I gotta head out for carol concert rehearsal thing (never feel right singing religious stuff when i'm not religious but it's all the season stuff and joining in eh?) Have a good evening/morning/lunchtime wherever/whenever you are!

kaboom!

[Evil Eye]

I'm kinda inclined to agree with Megatronus here. The new Prime looks a LOT better than the previous one, and this doesn't seem like a "Renewal version"/"Oops, we messed up, here's a better version" like some companies do (see: Bandai with the XS-01R Eva 01, Square Enix with the upcoming Bring Arts 2B 2.0 etc) or a "Yeah that was while back, we can do better now" (see Gunpla etc). I know the ROTF and movie 1 models are subtly different but that isn't what's going on here, the first SS Prime is just a bit wrong.

It didn't bother me when he was out to begin with but seeing the improvement made by the new version does make me wonder "Damn, why didn't they do that to begin with?".

[megatronus]

Development of these toys takes years, and you can bet that if this new Prime were released first, sales for the original one release earlier this year would be depressed. This was planned.

You might be entertained, which is great, but I'm annoyed that I'm being pushed into yet another voyager Prime purchase.

Don't think either of us knows exactly how Hasbro/Takara plans, develops and releases these figures though.

The Brand Team is on the record multiple times over that conception to shelf takes 2+ years.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

megatronus, you seem to be wilfully throwing out the rest of what Carnivius said. Like the possibility of Prime's tooling changes (especially the chest) being made in response to the feedback they got. And to realizing that the existing mold couldn't adequately support combination. Conception to shelf may usually (but not always, it can and has gone faster) take 2 years, but tweaking a figure that's already been finished takes a much shorter time.

Now, I won't say there wasn't some cynical planning regarding him, but I don't think it was planned obsoletion. Even if the tooling changes weren't a thing they'd have still made you double-dip on Prime to get the gun just like they made you double-dip on Ratchet and Starscream for accessories. From that standpoint the tooling changes are a nice thing since they add value beyond the accessory similar to Ratchet and Starscream's later-movie decoes.

[ZeroWolf]

megatronus, you seem to be wilfully throwing out the rest of what Carnivius said. Like the possibility of Prime's tooling changes (especially the chest) being made in response to the feedback they got. And to realizing that the existing mold couldn't adequately support combination. Conception to shelf may usually (but not always, it can and has gone faster) take 2 years, but tweaking a figure that's already been finished takes a much shorter time.

Now, I won't say there wasn't some cynical planning regarding him, but I don't think it was planned obsoletion. Even if the tooling changes weren't a thing they'd have still made you double-dip on Prime to get the gun just like they made you double-dip on Ratchet and Starscream for accessories. From that standpoint the tooling changes are a nice thing since they add value beyond the accessory similar to Ratchet and Starscream's later-movie decoes.

In addition to the excellent points zeldatgeswordsman has made here, by the time the new prime was being developed, the old one was pretty far in production. Now they needed a prime to launch the new line with as that's how they launch all lines these days it seems... Look at generations. Now they couldn't delay the line, nor could they delay the figure, I believe they choose the best option (for them that is) on the other hand, is releasing ya new prime toy every year in the studio series any different then in generations

[megatronus]

megatronus, you seem to be wilfully throwing out the rest of what Carnivius said. Like the possibility of Prime's tooling changes (especially the chest) being made in response to the feedback they got. And to realizing that the existing mold couldn't adequately support combination. Conception to shelf may usually (but not always, it can and has gone faster) take 2 years, but tweaking a figure that's already been finished takes a much shorter time.

Now, I won't say there wasn't some cynical planning regarding him, but I don't think it was planned obsoletion. Even if the tooling changes weren't a thing they'd have still made you double-dip on Prime to get the gun just like they made you double-dip on Ratchet and Starscream for accessories. From that standpoint the tooling changes are a nice thing since they add value beyond the accessory similar to Ratchet and Starscream's later-movie decoes.

I'm not ignoring Carnivius' points, I'm saying they're moot. It takes AT LEAST 2 years, often longer, to go from conception to production. By the time they would have received feedback on the first SS Prime, this second one would have already been planned far in advance and finalized.

[megatronus]

megatronus, you seem to be wilfully throwing out the rest of what Carnivius said. Like the possibility of Prime's tooling changes (especially the chest) being made in response to the feedback they got. And to realizing that the existing mold couldn't adequately support combination. Conception to shelf may usually (but not always, it can and has gone faster) take 2 years, but tweaking a figure that's already been finished takes a much shorter time.

Now, I won't say there wasn't some cynical planning regarding him, but I don't think it was planned obsoletion. Even if the tooling changes weren't a thing they'd have still made you double-dip on Prime to get the gun just like they made you double-dip on Ratchet and Starscream for accessories. From that standpoint the tooling changes are a nice thing since they add value beyond the accessory similar to Ratchet and Starscream's later-movie decoes.

I'm not ignoring Carnivius' points, I'm saying they're moot. It takes AT LEAST 2 years, often longer, to go from conception to production. By the time they would have received feedback on the first SS Prime, this second one would have already been planned far in advance and finalized.

Additionally - keep in mind that the entire War for Cybertron trilogy has already been planned out. That's nearly 4 years of product. When I say conception to shelf, that's largely from the perspective of the design/production process. But the larger plan, with specific character releases and sometimes even assortments, are determined at a high view much earlier.

I'm not saying Hasbro doesn't have the ability to pivot, but to say that somehow that the second prime was a response to the first, or that they wouldn't have 2 Primes in the pipe at the same time is kind of silly, not just from the perspective of their actual planning process, but from exactly what you guys have said - it's Prime! Of course they'll do many Primes.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

To quote Unicron: "No, the point is you're a fool."

What we're saying is that the new tooling on the second Prime IS. NOT. PLANNED. OBSOLETION. Which is what you are accusing it of being. He is not, he is no more "planned obsoletion" than DOTM Ratchet or ROTF Starscream. They didn't need to go to the trouble of planned obsoletion, of making an improved chest-tooling to make people double-dip on Prime. They didn't need planned obsoletion because they already had a mechanism for making people double-dip: Releasing him in a new deco with a different accessory just like with Lockdown, Ratchet, and Starscream. Speaking of accessories, if he was really made to make the previous Optimus "obsolete" he would have come with the swords. Obsoletion implies "You don't have to buy the other one now that this one exists". But no, you want him to have all his accessories you still have to buy the older Prime. TLDR they didn't need to make and hold back new chest and arm toolings when they could just hold back an accessory

While it's true that Jetfire was probably already planned, I think the experimental nature of the Studio Series at launch would have held back the greenlighting of actually investing money in prototyping him and cutting the molds (the same goes for the other later-development SS molds) until they were assured the line would be successful. This would have precluded proper compatibility testing with him and Optimus when Optimus was being developed, so the tooling changes to assist in combining are just as likely to be things they found out they had to make while designing Jetfire as they are to be features made in advance but deliberately suppressed.

That "two years" timeframe is not the absolutr set in stone minimum for development. If it was the minimum then a lot of movie and Unicron trilogy toys would have never have happened in the timeframe they did. Hell, even in the days of G1 toys would go from concept to shelf inside a year.

And regardless of how long it takes to initially design a figure, AMMENDING that design can happen very quickly. Otherwise we'd never get running change retools or other such corrections. If that took two years minimum then, say, the hip retool on Battle Core Optimus Prime would have taken til 2017.

[D-Maximal_Primal]

As he's one of my favorites, I cannot wait for Bonecrusher!

also, why are people demanding he combine with Devastator? He wasn't even in the same movie! He is not a Constructicon! He was a very separate character and honestly quite a lot cooler in looks and design than the Constructicon Bonecrusher.

He has the name, but that's like demanding Brawl, Onslaught, Blackout (who is basically movie Vortex), Swindle, and some movie Blastoff that needs created combine, even though 2 are military, ones a car, ones a towtruck, and the other who knows what he would be.

It's the movies, let us have an awesome independent Bonecrusher!

I don't quite understand people's frustration with bonecrusher...he looks the part to me and I'm my mind scales perfectly So you may not want him but I do, and devastator aside, I think Studio Series has knocked them out of the park scale wise. All this just goes to show how hard it is to literally please everyone!

He's just too short. He should be about the same height as Brawl (both about 25 feet tall), and maybe a head shorter than Prime (28 feet), but instead the toy comes up to Prime's belly.



He's clearly taller than Ironhide, but the toy looks to be about a hair SHORTER than SS Ironhide. It's frustrating because this is the second time they've done this to the same character, who for reason's i'll never understand, was only ever released as a deluxe in the past. This was a chance to FINALLY get him in a decent size, 10 years later, and they botched it again.

This was an enlarged use of his model in RotF, it's not his actual size and model here. He was shown to be about the same size as Optimus, but he was hunched over and very wide. And he's a killer roller skater, first one to really use the "wheels in heels" thing.

[ZeroWolf]

As he's one of my favorites, I cannot wait for Bonecrusher!

also, why are people demanding he combine with Devastator? He wasn't even in the same movie! He is not a Constructicon! He was a very separate character and honestly quite a lot cooler in looks and design than the Constructicon Bonecrusher.

He has the name, but that's like demanding Brawl, Onslaught, Blackout (who is basically movie Vortex), Swindle, and some movie Blastoff that needs created combine, even though 2 are military, ones a car, ones a towtruck, and the other who knows what he would be.

It's the movies, let us have an awesome independent Bonecrusher!

I don't quite understand people's frustration with bonecrusher...he looks the part to me and I'm my mind scales perfectly So you may not want him but I do, and devastator aside, I think Studio Series has knocked them out of the park scale wise. All this just goes to show how hard it is to literally please everyone!

He's just too short. He should be about the same height as Brawl (both about 25 feet tall), and maybe a head shorter than Prime (28 feet), but instead the toy comes up to Prime's belly.



He's clearly taller than Ironhide, but the toy looks to be about a hair SHORTER than SS Ironhide. It's frustrating because this is the second time they've done this to the same character, who for reason's i'll never understand, was only ever released as a deluxe in the past. This was a chance to FINALLY get him in a decent size, 10 years later, and they botched it again.

This was an enlarged use of his model in RotF, it's not his actual size and model here. He was shown to be about the same size as Optimus, but he was hunched over and very wide. And he's a killer roller skater, first one to really use the "wheels in heels" thing.

Thanks D-Max for that tidbit about his model in RotF, I knew something was up with it, but I couldn't remember what it was. That film was a mess for using old models to just fill scenes. I know why they did it, but it doesn't mean I like it.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

*shrug* It's just the same thing as the generic Seekers from "More Than Meets The Eye" and other episodes, or the Insecticlones, or the Guardian Robots, or the Sweeps, or what have you. Shared body-types and near duplicates have been a thing throughout Transformers history, why is it suddenly an abomination when the movies do it?

[william-james88]

I don't quite understand people's frustration with bonecrusher...he looks the part to me and I'm my mind scales perfectly So you may not want him but I do, and devastator aside, I think Studio Series has knocked them out of the park scale wise. All this just goes to show how hard it is to literally please everyone!

He's just too short. He should be about the same height as Brawl (both about 25 feet tall), and maybe a head shorter than Prime (28 feet), but instead the toy comes up to Prime's belly.



He's clearly taller than Ironhide, but the toy looks to be about a hair SHORTER than SS Ironhide. It's frustrating because this is the second time they've done this to the same character, who for reason's i'll never understand, was only ever released as a deluxe in the past. This was a chance to FINALLY get him in a decent size, 10 years later, and they botched it again.

LOL, how can that be Bonecusher if thats a pic from the second film, where Bonecrusher was already dead? Its not Bonecruher adn thus his scale in that pic is worthless. All that matters is how he compares to Prime in the first film. Thats it thats all.

And to say they compltely botched it and learning nothing after 10 years means you dont remember how bad it was before.



You can do as you wish, I will enjoy finally recreating that first film battle with toys that work better than ever before.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

While the screenshot of the oversize Buffalo MPCV Decepticon from ROTF is unsuited for scale comparison, the comment that he should be close to Brawl's 25' height and thus be between Optimus' 28' height and Ironhide's 22' height is still fair.

[megatronus]

yada yada yada

Original Studio Series Prime is now an inferior, outdated mold. Translation: Obsolete.

Not everyone is going to double dip on accessories or decos; some just want the best representations of a character. In a line pitched as definitive versions of movie characters, there shouldn't be a "best" version among many options - each new release should in theory stand alone, with characters repeating only where there's significant variance between movie designs. The fact that original Studio Series Prime is a less screen accurate version of this new Prime is what annoys me - it means the original is by no means definitive, and in this line that means pointless, swords or not.

Addressing your points:

-Studio Series is not experimental in any way, shape, or form. It is a standard retail line, and that's OK.
-The two year time frame holds up, and has been confirmed many times by the current Transformers brand team. You can't point to what was done 35 or even 15 years ago and say the same process holds. Transformers wasn't as corporatized or as massive a brand in the Unicron Trilogy days; now Hasbro manages it as a top brand, with all the planning that entails.
-A running change is completely different than a planned change. This new Prime was planned to go with Jetfire from the get go, and has likely been planned since the conception of the Studio Series line. We know Hasbro has shifted to a strategy of planned retools to deliver more characters in the main lines, and that extends to Studio Series as well.

[Stryker P28]

all of these look great!

AlSo, I agree with ZeldaTheSwordsman because he makes good points like the past cases of accesories


In my opinion, i think its okay with the whole 2 optimus's just for accesories,retool,and paint.
I collected bumblebees when i was little.I wanted stealth bumblebee for the deco and mask head.I wanted rotf bee because cannon arm and retool.I wanted studio series 1 bee for the TLK feel but a nostalgic feel to beater-bee

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

And another one added to the list.. Sigh.. I hate doing it so much but I get sick of excessive moon logic and people only reading half of what I say to bend it to their preset conclusion.

This series was on the experimental side when it debuted, any line based mainly on past movies and shows is. Hasbro had no guarantee it would succeed at the outset.

There is a difference between a figure being planned and the physical development actually being started. I don't think the Jetfire combining retools were necessarily planned because I don't think physical development on Jetfire (and thus final determination of what was needed to make combination work) was greenlit until after the Studio Series had proved successful. And I sure as hell don't think the chest retool was planned or made in advance because A. that looks like purely an aesthetic fix, I don't think it was needed for the Jetfire combo and B. If they had the better-looking chest tooling made in advance, why wouldn't they use it from the get-go instead of risking putting off buyers by using the inferior tooling? The ugly halfassed flat chest was a big reason I never got him.
What is there to say it's not a post-development fix? Why the determination to think it was deliberately held back?

And the two year timeframe does NOT consistently hold up across the board even now. A lot of the movie designs are only decided on within a year of the movie's release at best, so if there was a 2-year delay then none of the new TLK designs for instance would have had a toy til 2018 at the least. Their advance planning is also far from perfect or complete.

As for the first version "no longer being definitive"? It was never really definitive in the first place IMO because of the held-back accessory even if you considered it worth buying. Which I didn't - I thought it was garbage. So for my money the retooled Optimus actually adds value to the first one because of the accessories thing - without the retooled version it would be completely worthless because I would just be looking at Battle Blades Optimus to go with the studio series, slight oversize be damned.

[megatronus]

And another one added to the list.. Sigh.. I hate doing it so much but I get sick of excessive moon logic and people only reading half of what I say to bend it to their preset conclusion.

This is what's wrong with the boards right here.

People, you're free to disagree with opinions and points, but to withdraw entirely from a debate without being able to engage a clearly stated argument, and then to couch that withdrawal in projection, is to reveal your own smallness.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

to withdraw entirely from a debate without being able to engage a clearly stated argument, and then to couch that withdrawal in projection, is to reveal your own smallness

Wow. That... That looks like the childish "Ha ha you're ignoring me that means I win" defense to me. It's a complete denial of the fact that people can get legitimately frustrated and fed up with feeling like they're arguing in circles, and decide that it's not worth any more time or effort. And if you think that's an invalid approach to take, then you're really not worth engaging with.

I did cool down, and go back and try again to engage your points.