The Energon Pub

[Savage]

What is "Robot Mode Abilities"?
What are the benefits of putting points into it?

[Kaijubot]

Depends on the type of Robot Mode

Protoform - No Ability
Assault - Increases Firepower
Bulk - Increases Endurance (and possibly the effect of armour)
Computational - Increases Courage and Intelligence
Melee - Increases Strength
Recon - Increases Speed Skill

Each is apparently equivalent to half a normal upgrade in the relevant stat. Also, increases to Firepower and Skill through the robot mode only apply in battle, so they do not let you equip better weapons.

Robot mode upgrades do not currently count towards the level of the character.

[Psychout]

Robot mode upgrades do not currently count towards the level of the character.

Although I hope that changes. Im interested to see hoew the level caps affect it too.

[Knives]

Robot mode upgrades do not currently count towards the level of the character.

Although I hope that changes. Im interested to see hoew the level caps affect it too.

Most definately not seconded. Leave the robot modes out of the lvl. count unless it becomes clear that they are unbalancing the game. Otherwise you are just hamstringing player choice for no reason.

[Tammuz]

Robot mode upgrades do not currently count towards the level of the character.

Although I hope that changes. Im interested to see hoew the level caps affect it too.

Most definately not seconded. Leave the robot modes out of the lvl. count unless it becomes clear that they are unbalancing the game. Otherwise you are just hamstringing player choice for no reason.

what? and have potentially 2x+50% unleveled? IT IS CLEAR that having what counts as an extra 10 upgrades is unfair, they all cost the same amount to upgrade, you don't have to invest in them to still have that little picture of your robot mode, where's the restricting player choice?

would you chuck a bot with 5str against a bot with nothing and call it a fair fight?

would you consider a medic that with 5 courage and 5 intell as worthy an ally as a medic with no courage and no intell?

[Redimus]

Robot mode upgrades do not currently count towards the level of the character.

Although I hope that changes. Im interested to see hoew the level caps affect it too.

Most definately not seconded. Leave the robot modes out of the lvl. count unless it becomes clear that they are unbalancing the game. Otherwise you are just hamstringing player choice for no reason.

what? and have potentially 2x+50% unleveled? IT IS CLEAR that having what counts as an extra 10 upgrades is unfair, they all cost the same amount to upgrade, you don't have to invest in them to still have that little picture of your robot mode, where's the restricting player choice?

would you chuck a bot with 5str against a bot with nothing and call it a fair fight?

would you consider a medic that with 5 courage and 5 intell as worthy an ally as a medic with no courage and no intell?

My thoughts exactly. All it does is encourage cowards to build high xp artifically low lvl tfs that dont earn anywhere near the amount of xp for their commanders that they should, and that ass rape tfs that *should* be at that level.

Thanks, but no thanks. This way, everybody loses.

[Metroplex79]

Low levels can't take full advantage of the Robot Modes.

The current xp would prevent it. Only high levels (IMO 5+) can take advantage of the Robot Mode stats.

Here is a list of the XP caps for each level:
Level 0 = 60,000 and below
Level 1 = 400,000 and below
Level 2 = 1,200,000 and below
Level 3 = 3,100,000 and below
Level 4 = 6,400,000 and below
Level 5 = 13,200,000 and below
Level 6 = 30,000,000 and below

I'm sure a Level 0 with 4 STR (costs 15,000xp) can beat up someone with 4 in Melee Robot Mode (costs 45,000 xp).

So dumping everything into Robot Mode won't help. You'll need regular stats and robot mode pts to be effective, but how powerful can you really get with only 60000 xp or 4 stats?

[Tammuz]

you could have 4 points in robot mode and 4 points in a stat for 60k, thus my +50% thing in my preivious post

there is a big difference between 6 str brawling and 4 str brawling enough to kill level 0s in 2-3 hits, rather than 3-5hits.the difference at level 0 is pretty much comparable to the difference between blades and the Energon crossbow, and yet no one saying the blades aren't broken.

or if we are talking strafes it bumps the damage up on average by an additional 5th, it also means 75% strafes at level 0, if someone gives them a sparkler it means 100% strafes are possibly at level 0

this gets even worse if the bot mode boosts 2 stats.
becuas then what you are actually doing is is +50% and then it it gets multiplacative.

I agree with metroplex that you can't really use them effectively at low levels but that is only becuase i don't consider level bullying as an effective play style in the long term. if there was a shortage of players at higher levels, as there at the beginning of V1 level bullying has it's advantages.

there is also another problem, the repair mechanics isn't built for people to have over 10 endurance and it starts becoming exceptionally powerful as it divides by less than 1, optimally this boosts the maximum repair output to 165% per shot. if there was an endurance minicon(and likely there there will be) we are talking >600% repairs.

EDIT: forgot to factor in intell boosting bot modes >800% repairs, if there is an intell boosting minicon we're getting close to 1000% repairs.

is it clear just how broken things are?

[Metroplex79]

you could have 4 points in robot mode and 4 points in a stat for 60k, thus my +50% thing in my preivious post

Yes you can, but what happens when you win 1 battle with 4 STR and 4 in Melee Robot Mode?

You'll be over 60K xp, and it'll bump you to Level 1 anyways. Those stats won't do any good against someone with good Level 1 stats.

If you only have 4 STR + 2 Melee Robot, that's 24K, sure you can bully for a small while. Then what? The other people who play fair might have blown by you because they moved up to Level 1 and earning Level 1 pts, and possibly taking on Level 2s and 3s (missions obviously)

[Tammuz]

Except there wont be any level ones or twos for a while. And did that stop stan, does it stop steve? And does it prevent repair becoming uber?
Its just maths. If you have plus one str them you should be counted as having plus one str no matter how you got it

[Scantron]

Bulk - Increases Endurance (and possibly the effect of armour)
Computational - Increases Courage and Intelligence

Theoretically. However, both Bulk and Computational types are messed up right now. Computational is actually increasing endurance and armor effects, to the point a character with decent END/armor and enough Computational points is nigh-invulnerable to weapons. I personally haven't seen it effecting CRG or INT function at all, but that's harder to track. Bulk type currently doesn't appear to be doing anything or is doing something harder to quantify, but it's definitely not serving the purpose it's supposed to.

[Knives]

Except there wont be any level ones or twos for a while. And did that stop stan, does it stop steve? And does it prevent repair becoming uber?
Its just maths. If you have plus one str them you should be counted as having plus one str no matter how you got it

And you seem to ignore the 'unless it is clearly unbalancing the game' part of my post completely in your responses. If it is as bad as you say, then yes they should be restricted more then they already are. And they currently are restricted by the XP caps.

I really think you have been in the upper lvl.s too long Tammuz. I take on lvl. 0-4 bots all the time, and the bot mode upgrade costs get sick at about 2-3 points in. You are not going to be able to really build it up until lvl. 2, and at that point most low lvl. bots are beggining to flesh out their other stats as well.

So chill out and lets give the game a chance to work with bot mode as is. There is nothing saying we can not change it later if it does become a problem, which i doubt.

[Tammuz]

Except there wont be any level ones or twos for a while. And did that stop stan, does it stop steve? And does it prevent repair becoming uber?
Its just maths. If you have plus one str them you should be counted as having plus one str no matter how you got it

And you seem to ignore the 'unless it is clearly unbalancing the game' part of my post completely in your responses. If it is as bad as you say, then yes they should be restricted more then they already are. And they currently are restricted by the XP caps.

I really think you have been in the upper lvl.s too long Tammuz. I take on lvl. 0-4 bots all the time, and the bot mode upgrade costs get sick at about 2-3 points in. You are not going to be able to really build it up until lvl. 2, and at that point most low lvl. bots are beggining to flesh out their other stats as well.

So chill out and lets give the game a chance to work with bot mode as is. There is nothing saying we can not change it later if it does become a problem, which i doubt.

i'm not suprised you doubt it, you once told me the rocket launcher was an equal to the battle blades.

you seem to be ignoring the bit of my post where i say they are it's right here in my first post

IT IS CLEAR

and despite the mathmatically evidence from the games own mechanics, you propose we just leave it alone?

at low levels yes they currently are restricted but the higher they go the wider they become and the greater they become you only need 1 stat with more points in it for robot modes to become cheaper than upgrading any other stat as it's not subject to the [no of stats^2]*[points in a particular stat]*1000 rule

point in case my lowest level 5 is only half way to his level cap and he's got 63% mission success rat(78% in the arena)and where he doesn't win he whores the xp, course i've maxed his bot mode, and if they where included he'd be level 6, and then their's Nurse Erica....

and what the hell does me being high level have to do anything?metroplex is high level, doesn't mean he's not right. Redimus is high level doesn't mean he's right.

you want simple maths here we go

each 9 upgrades busts you up a level
if you spent your xp on 5 points of courage and 5 points of intell you go up a level (5+5=10, 10>9 thus level = +1)

if you spent it all on a computational bot mode you'd still get what equates to 5 points of intell and 5 points of courage but you wouldn't go up a level.

it's really not that hard to see why they shouldn't be counted, right?

[Wingspan]

Is the game setup to handle Transformers with that many levels? In V2 my understanding is that each alt-mode will gain more tactics and then the robot mode ability will push 2-3 levels more as the maximum.

That being said, I agree with Tammuz. Even if the robot mode isn't counted toward levels, there should be a limit to the robot mode training based on level and/or XP.

Example: Robot mode can be no more than Level.

Example: Robot mode is restricted similarly to the level XP cap, however I would recommend making the XP values slightly more than the XP to control use.

These alternatives will mean that higher levels can configure more, however that makes sense; they have earned their way there. But if setup appropriately the restrictions would help control and normalize configurations.

Just an alternative, agreeing that some considering with level and robot mode is needed.

[Tammuz]

Is the game setup to handle Transformers with that many levels? In V2 my understanding is that each alt-mode will gain more tactics and then the robot mode ability will push 2-3 levels more as the maximum.

That being said, I agree with Tammuz. Even if the robot mode isn't counted toward levels, there should be a limit to the robot mode training based on level and/or XP.

Example: Robot mode can be no more than Level.

Example: Robot mode is restricted similarly to the level XP cap, however I would recommend making the XP values slightly more than the XP to control use.

These alternatives will mean that higher levels can configure more, however that makes sense; they have earned their way there. But if setup appropriately the restrictions would help control and normalize configurations.

Just an alternative, agreeing that some considering with level and robot mode is needed.

levels isn't really a problem;the only thing that levels affects is what level you can fight in the arena, what missions you can join(and we will need to write some new ones for levels we don't have now), how much xp your worth, and how much you must pay for cr.

this is becuase levels don't enter the mechanics at till it comes to calculating xp

my goal(and i think sprokitz, and cealus will join me here) is to balance the game so that the xp caps aren't needed, as they are a bandaid solution, the problems of unbalanced level stats and thus an inadequate leveling scheme are still there,though if we do have xp caps it should be based on spent xp, not total xp, as all i need to do is find an autobot with alot of xp, and ask him to make a sub standard setup on half his team(and i'd do the same) and we could tank each other in the arena for stupid amounts of xp(which is a bit unfair and rather spoils the game).

[Knives]

And I call shenanigens on that. It is not clear, it only looks like that to you on paper. And if there is one thing I have learned playing online games based on stats, it is that the paper results seldom reflect the actual results of the game in action. If the problem is really as earth-shatteringly apparent as you claim then my proposal to let it pan out for a bit will not further break the game. There is no internal coding that prevents any change if you sit on it for a bit.

The robot modes may be only a new set of numbers to you, but to other people it could be something completely different. For me, it represents the inherent talents/abillities of your transformer. When it comes out of that creation factory, it is naturally different from the others. It might be a bit tougher then the others, or a bit faster. But that transformer is still about the same lvl. as the other newly created transformers.

But if you limit this stat. by lvl., you ruin that for me. And you will ruin some conceptual quirk for someone else. And all so the game can look nice on paper. There is no reason to change it, or the current lvl. system if it works well enough for everyone playing. Perfect math need not apply.

[Tammuz]

[quote="Knives"]
The robot modes may be only a new set of numbers to you, but to other people it could be something completely different. For me, it represents the inherent talents/abillities of your transformer. When it comes out of that creation factory, it is naturally different from the others. It might be a bit tougher then the others, or a bit faster. But that transformer is still about the same lvl. as the other newly created transformers.

/quote]

right, stop right there. what you beleive it "represents" is of no consequence what so ever, i told you this before when you tried to convince me that that the rocket launcher did more damage than the blades, becuase you "beleived it should"

the fact is that bot modes increase either 1 or 2 stats by a half a point, and the leveling system is based on how many points you've increased your stats by.

you can choose whatever bot mode you like without affecting levels because with out investing xp into it it doesn't affect anything(like alts) but if you accumulate enough points to take you over a level boundty it should go over the level boundry

call shenanigans all you want, the maths is clear, me and the rest of the level 6+ medic gang are damn well usiing it to rake in the xp.

[Knives]

The robot modes may be only a new set of numbers to you, but to other people it could be something completely different. For me, it represents the inherent talents/abillities of your transformer. When it comes out of that creation factory, it is naturally different from the others. It might be a bit tougher then the others, or a bit faster. But that transformer is still about the same lvl. as the other newly created transformers.

right, stop right there. what you beleive it "represents" is of no consequence what so ever, i told you this before when you tried to convince me that that the rocket launcher did more damage than the blades, becuase you "beleived it should"

the fact is that bot modes increase either 1 or 2 stats by a half a point, and the leveling system is based on how many points you've increased your stats by.

you can choose whatever bot mode you like without affecting levels because with out investing xp into it it doesn't affect anything(like alts) but if you accumulate enough points to take you over a level boundty it should go over the level boundry

call shenanigans all you want, the maths is clear, me and the rest of the level 6+ medic gang are damn well usiing it to rake in the xp.

I said that is what it represents to me. It may represent something completely different to somebody else. But whatever it means to the player it should not be restricted for no reason, or because a bunch of number obsessed power gamers get their kicks from ganking other people. If anything the power gamers should be singled out and punished.

I have seen over and over again how game developers ruin their games in an attempt to curtail the power gamer. It is a useless venture, power gamers will always find a new way to exploit the system. The best course of action is to just ignore them and continue to develop the system for the other players. It is my experiance that power gamers have short attention spans, and will quickly abandon their current game in favor of the shiney new one. The players exploiting this game are no different.

A change should only be implimented if it ends up making the game more fun for everyone. And we have only raw math to support your claim that the robot modes are broken now and will be broken when V2.0 comes out. V2.0 will completely change the game, so your current raw math and my feel of the game are moot anyway. If when the new version comes out the robot modes are proven to be game breaking without further restrictions, then change them. As I keep posting there is nothing that will stop you from doing so.

And do not give me that battleblades argument. Those pieces of garbage are so broken it is not funny. I said the rocket launcher should be powerful and slow. And the blades should be either powerful or fast, but not both. The only reason I am not campaigning for their removal or alteration is because we are so close to the reset it will not matter. The BB exploiters will lose their 'I win' button soon enough.

[Tammuz]

you know i swear you once called me a min/maxer, a powergamer, and i seem to have played this game for 4 years. i don't consider 4 years a short amount of time, in fact i don't know anyone who i'd consider to be a power gamer who hasn't played this game for over a year.

if there are loopholes that can be abused i.e. the abiltiy to increase your base attack by 50% and not increase level then in order to stay competitive EVERYONE has to adopt that style of play, this leads to very uniform character design as the majority who want play the game adopt that style, the alternative is to drop out of the race and go character driven, at which point they become an xp generator for the competitive majority, and really that's it for them, after all the majority only really care about the character driven minority when they start going into combat and letting the side down by sucking.

have you heard of the zero sum rule? it's a very good rule

and how are you bing restricted? you can choose whatever bot mode you like, it's only when you start putting xp into it and it starts improving your bot that it should affect levels.

and knives, stop trying to tell me about v2, remember who balanced the weapons for v2, and you can't do that with out balancing everything else.

EDIT; why are you arguing for ignoring loopholes;

The best course of action is to just ignore them and continue to develop the system for the other players. It is my experiance that power gamers have short attention spans, and will quickly abandon their current game in favor of the shiney new one. The players exploiting this game are no different.

and pretty much saying that saying we shouldn't ignore them elsewhere;

And the blades should be either powerful or fast, but not both. The only reason I am not campaigning for their removal or alteration is because we are so close to the reset it will not matter. The BB exploiters will lose their 'I win' button soon enough.

so which is it? not that it really matters as the robot modes apparently aren't effective enough to be anything but aesthetic fluff?

[firebolt maxim]

how do i get a robot mode in heavy metal war?

[Redimus]

Dear god knives... do you even read the drivel you write? Us 'powergamers' are the ones TRYING to make it more fair. And the chances are, after the amount of time Tam has spent working it out and telling the programmers (old and new) what to do and how, that his maths are pretty spot on for this version AND V2, and that it is relivent....

how do i get a robot mode in heavy metal war?

Click the upgrade link on the charecter's page, and where you can add stats (and alt modes if your charecter hasnt already got one) you will see a list of robot modes too.

[Lord Straxus]

You may need to reset your transformer first.

[Knives]

I did not say there was no way the bot modes could be imbalanced. I am simply advocating trying them out without stat. restrictions first, so we can be sure. And really, the bot modes are already restricted by the lvl. xp caps. And at about 3-4 points into the bot mode the xp required to lvl. it gets prohibitive even for a lvl. three. Is a third restriction really necessary? That is the question I want answered, and we will not get that answer by jamming this change into the game before we have a chance to see it in action in V2.0.

And I will not keep silent about something just because some big name on the boards, even someone involved in the game development, tells me it is a certain way. I am a firm advocate of free expression even if you sometimes wish you could throttle the other guy. That is why I am not dissmissing Tammuz's claims outright and trying to shout him out. All I want is a test run, nothing more. If the bot modes umbalance things that far, then you can bet your energon stash I will be for implimenting the change. Heaven knows I have been victim of game exploiters here often enough. I just want to make sure that choice is not unnecessarily restricted.

[firebolt maxim]

redimus said "Click the upgrade link on the charecter's page, and where you can add stats (and alt modes if your charecter hasnt already got one) you will see a list of robot modes too." that is a lie. their is no list of robot modes.

[Mkall]

redimus said "Click the upgrade link on the charecter's page, and where you can add stats (and alt modes if your charecter hasnt already got one) you will see a list of robot modes too." that is a lie. their is no list of robot modes.

There is a glitch that is still being ironed out that newly created characters don't have access to the robot modes. To gain access to them, you need to reset your character. On the upgrade screen there's an option called reset this character. Click it and you'll be able to re-spend your XP, pick a new alt mode, and have access to robot modes

I hope that helps