The Energon Pub

[skywarp-2]

GALVATRON'S DEATH WAS A COPOUT..Skyfire survived worse cold conditions and was resurrected..

didn't Galvatron come back in the Beast Wars series??

Different Galvatron. Not the same character.

Ah... so basically he is dead afterall.. well if he showed up in the future as a reformatted Galvatron that would have been cool, as it stands..I wished it could have gone better, but that is like 1980's so.. oh well. thanks for the info .

I can assure everyone that there's quite a few official folks that visit this site on a regular basis from Hasbro, IDW, the various DVD companies, Paramount, etc.

One of the greatest compliments I ever received about Seibertron.com was an unintentional compliment from Hasbro CEO Brian Goldner's 10 year old daughter at BotCon 2007. Brian introduced me to his daughter, told her I was the owner of Seibertron.com, and then she stated "That's the website you check out every night before you go to bed!" Brian blushed/grinned, whatever. It was a true highlight in my Seibertron.com life. One of the greatest compliments I could receive without it actually being a compliment.

This is so cool! The honest truth is that there are many fan communities with forums and sites out there but I haven't come across any that match seibertron.com for its site layout and content(the photo galleries are second to none) and more importantly, the community is just awesome.

I agree, this is one of the coolest things I've read, you got a great site here, and Hasbro's Most even slipped and let you know. how cool is that!

oh and to what convotron just said..

QFT!

[Rastamus Prime]

Bottom line, you need to work for Hasbro to submit an idea and effect designs and changes us Transformers fans want to see...My inside connection isn't going to give me tidbits anymore.. he's much too busy keeping his job in this recession, and I don't blame him..

That's not entirely true.

The animated figures that we'll be getting around Christmas are due to fan requests. Universe returning was due to fan demand, as was Onslaught repainted as Hardhead.

A single person's voice doesn't mean jack all to any industry, Hasbro, Marvel, Coca-Cola, Ford yadda-yadda. The only way to get our voices heard is to speak as a chorus.

Exactly, strenght in numbers. Hasbro has no choice but to take some decisons from its fanbase and consumer community, because it is us who keep them going. They cater to us in a way, and loosing us means mye-bye Hasbro.

[Jelze Bunnycat]

Bottom line, you need to work for Hasbro to submit an idea and effect designs and changes us Transformers fans want to see...My inside connection isn't going to give me tidbits anymore.. he's much too busy keeping his job in this recession, and I don't blame him..

That's not entirely true.

The animated figures that we'll be getting around Christmas are due to fan requests. Universe returning was due to fan demand, as was Onslaught repainted as Hardhead.

A single person's voice doesn't mean jack all to any industry, Hasbro, Marvel, Coca-Cola, Ford yadda-yadda. The only way to get our voices heard is to speak as a chorus.

Exactly, strenght in numbers. Hasbro has no choice but to take some decisons from its fanbase and consumer community, because it is us who keep them going. They cater to us in a way, and loosing us means mye-bye Hasbro.

If you're thinking about fans only, you're wrong.

That's a very common mistake, in fact it's still the kids and parents who Hasbro mainly cater to, not us. We represent a tiny fraction of the total consumers (15 to 20% I think), but a large enough portion to be heard and taken into consideration. All we are is a jar of infinite ideas, and if an idea is viable, Hasbro "steals" it in a sense.

[Razorclaw0000]

All we are is a jar of infinite ideas, and if an idea is viable, Hasbro "steals" it in a sense.

I am surprisingly OK with that. ROTF Hoist, I'm looking at you.

[Convotron]

If you're thinking about fans only, you're wrong.

That's a very common mistake, in fact it's still the kids and parents who Hasbro mainly cater to, not us. We represent a tiny fraction of the total consumers (15 to 20% I think), but a large enough portion to be heard and taken into consideration. All we are is a jar of infinite ideas, and if an idea is viable, Hasbro "steals" it in a sense.

This is truth. Fans as in the collector/enthusiast types we are here, some would say the more "hardcore" fans, are certainly a significant portion of the customerbase but we aren't anywhere near the majority.

But who knows for how long? Social acceptance for hobbies that involve what are tradtitionally viewed as "childish" is changing. With the surge of popularity in the mainstream of portions of popular culture like comic books, video games, and toys/action figures/collectibles, more people are either rekindling their interest as I have or we see the next generation like my neices and nephews, grow up in a culture that shows acceptance for these hobbies. Financial worth often is tied into the idea of validity so one could point out that blockbuster successes like some of the comic book movies and toyline based movies are breaking sales records are not one time oddities. There is certainly a trend in the repeated financial success of "geek" related properties.

To bring things back around to the thread, as I see this topic has been merged with the 3rd party debate discussion, I think that as much praise as 3rd party developers get for creating products that we fans often salivate over...keep in mind that they aren't accountable to anyone but themselves. It's far easier to a fan based 3rd party producer, as a relatively small scale operation, to take suggestions and run with them than a multi-million dollar company that is one huge machine.

The reality of the situation is that there isn't one person in charge or even a small group of people to consider when making changes. There's a whole system of processes to deal with, everyone has to answer or work with someone else. It's a bit of a mess but that's how things tend to get when you are trying to manage a huge organization.

I don't work for a large company but the company has contracts with multi-million dollar businesses. Through my work as a senior agent in the QA department, I have direct contact with senior management of these companies as I manage weekly calibration meetings and they all seem to operate on similar guidelines with respect to implementing changes and decisions within the company.

That being said, Hasbro has eyes and ears, and they are observing. We just shouldn't expect a straight up, "Thanks for the idea, have a good day." response from them even though we know that they're influenced one way or another. Consider that more and more fans are joining the ranks of development teams who work for Hasbro. The development team for TFA seemed to be full of fans and the many inside jokes and homages in TFA shows that fan influence is certainly creeping in and will likely continue to do so.

[Rastamus Prime]

Bottom line, you need to work for Hasbro to submit an idea and effect designs and changes us Transformers fans want to see...My inside connection isn't going to give me tidbits anymore.. he's much too busy keeping his job in this recession, and I don't blame him..

That's not entirely true.

The animated figures that we'll be getting around Christmas are due to fan requests. Universe returning was due to fan demand, as was Onslaught repainted as Hardhead.

A single person's voice doesn't mean jack all to any industry, Hasbro, Marvel, Coca-Cola, Ford yadda-yadda. The only way to get our voices heard is to speak as a chorus.

Exactly, strenght in numbers. Hasbro has no choice but to take some decisons from its fanbase and consumer community, because it is us who keep them going. They cater to us in a way, and loosing us means mye-bye Hasbro.

If you're thinking about fans only, you're wrong.

That's a very common mistake, in fact it's still the kids and parents who Hasbro mainly cater to, not us. We represent a tiny fraction of the total consumers (15 to 20% I think), but a large enough portion to be heard and taken into consideration. All we are is a jar of infinite ideas, and if an idea is viable, Hasbro "steals" it in a sense.

*Clarification*
When I said us, I just ment the consumer population not us as in Seibertron members, and fellow collectors.

[Rastamus Prime]

Convotron:

But who knows for how long? Social acceptance for hobbies that involve what are tradtitionally viewed as "childish" is changing. With the surge of popularity in the mainstream of portions of popular culture like comic books, video games, and toys/action figures/collectibles, more people are either rekindling their interest as I have or we see the next generation like my neices and nephews, grow up in a culture that shows acceptance for these hobbies. Financial worth often is tied into the idea of validity so one could point out that blockbuster successes like some of the comic book movies and toyline based movies are breaking sales records are not one time oddities. There is certainly a trend in the repeated financial success of "geek" related properties.

It agrivates me, that stupid label people give Comic/Figure collectors. It's not childish, the real childs are the one making fun of collectors. Man I'm 17 years old, I'm not afraid to admit I love Transformers. I have a collection in plain view of my room. I've always been a Transfan, and hopefully I'll stay one. And yet, that's only part of me. I skateboard, snowboard, drum, play guitar, play hockey, and do an array of other things. It's the media that puts us down, and makes us look like fags. Look at 40 year old Virgin, the main character collects hero figures and they portray him as a complete tool. I'm glad Comic Con has been so successful and popular lately, we need that kind of recognition. I hope Botcon can start getting that way too. We're all geeks at something.

Sorry about the tangent again, resume 3rd party merch.

[SentinelA]

My opinion is very simple and self-centered. If it's something that will complete or enhance my collection I'm all for it. This goes for knock-offs as well. I see Hasbro and Takara as somewhat clueless as to what the oldschool fans really what. If they won't make or reissue things like G1 Mirage, Shockwave, or trailers for Classics Prime and Ultra Magnus, screw em! To me Third Party Merchandise focus on the fan whereas the establishment (Hasbro/Takara) does not so they can stand a little more competention.

[Convotron]

My opinion is very simple and self-centered. If it's something that will complete or enhance my collection I'm all for it. This goes for knock-offs as well. I see Hasbro and Takara as somewhat clueless as to what the oldschool fans really what. If they won't make or reissue things like G1 Mirage, Shockwave, or trailers for Classics Prime and Ultra Magnus, screw em! To me Third Party Merchandise focus on the fan whereas the establishment (Hasbro/Takara) does not so they can stand a little more competention.

I don't think Hasbro/Takara are clueless to what fans desire, from the casual to the hardcore. I imagine a large part of their decision making process is: Is there profit in it? Is there even a chance to make enough money to cover the costs of designing, producing, advertising, and shipping the product?

Takara actually seems more fan friendly than Hasbro as a significant portion of their offerings are created with the collector in mind such as the Binaltech and Alternity lines.

However, it's not like Hasbro is oblivious to the fan community. Looking at things like the upcoming RotF Voyager Bludgeon figure, it's obvious that such a product concept is geared towards the diehard Transformers fan and not the average collector. Do you honestly think that the majority of the consumerbase is even aware of what Bludgeon is and how the RotF Voyager design is one big homage to a fan favourite? Every once in a while, Hasbro throws out a bone like that to the fans.

It's odd to have an either/or attitude towards official and unofficial producers as if the purpose and actions of these entities are black and white. Unofficial producers are no more saints of fandom than Hasbro/Takara is the unholy beast that is poised to crush the hopes and dreams of loyal fans. Both have their own negative and positive points.

We fans benefit at this time as we have the ability to get the best of both worlds. I support aspects of both areas of Transformers production but I don't support either form of production wholly.

[El Duque]

I don't know this to be true, but the reason Takara seems more open to fan/collector oriented items is probably because in the Asian markets TF's are marketed more to adults than children. Also I believe Hasbro has stated that adult collectors/fans only make up around 12% of their sales. Again I don't know that to be absolutely accurate, but I've been hanging around these boards for years and that's what I seem to recall.

[Convotron]

That's my understanding, El Duque. Look at the large market for various collectible items in the Asian market, not just Japan. I compare that to my own experience here in Canada and collecting models, action figures, etc. is still a fairly niche hobby.

[SKYWARPED_128]

I don't know this to be true, but the reason Takara seems more open to fan/collector oriented items is probably because in the Asian markets TF's are marketed more to adults than children. Also I believe Hasbro has stated that adult collectors/fans only make up around 12% of their sales. Again I don't know that to be absolutely accurate, but I've been hanging around these boards for years and that's what I seem to recall.

About Takara catering to adult collectors, it's very true. Look at the Masterpiece and Encore series--these are figures were manufactured exclusively with the financially-independent adult collector in mind, since the former is too expensive for a child to get his dad to buy, and the latter appeals only to those who've been around long enough to have witnessed the 1984 Transformers craze as a child.

Culturally speaking, Japan is a planet in its own right. Machismo isn't all that valued among the Japanese--in fact, Japanese girls are far more attracted to skinny androgynous guys than muscular jock types. It's us gaijin (and anyone not of Japanese ethnicity is considered one) who take such pride in pumping iron and showing off our guns and pecs.

Before I digress any further, the Japanese have a far more childlike attitude than any other country, Asian or otherwise (the porn scene is another story altogether ). There's nothing embarrassing for Japanese "salarymen" to read manga while riding on the subway. You might not want to try that in New York...

That's my understanding, El Duque. Look at the large market for various collectible items in the Asian market, not just Japan. I compare that to my own experience here in Canada and collecting models, action figures, etc. is still a fairly niche hobby.

Quite true. Asian countries inherently have a better "tolerance" to "youngster hobbies" among more mature men than, say, in the US. The truth is that countries like Singapore, Hong Kong, and even (South) Korea are heavily influenced by Japanese culture. In fact, anime and manga have been popular in those countries decades before the US even knew anything about "them violent Japanese cartoons".

In Asia, there's no "geek" stigma attached to a thirty-year-old man or woman collecting scale models or TF figures. Of course, the older (read: pre-WWII era) generation might look at such hobbies in disdain, but younger Asians are far more accepting of it.

In Japan, married men and/or women who assemble model kits or collect scale models (but not anime PVC figs, mind you) are a fairly common sight. To them it's just another hobby.

To my knowledge, Asians don't have a local word for geek, and even the idea of it is imported from American culture.

[Convotron]

One of the things I appreciate the most is the attitude in Japan towards media like manga and animation. The open view on the validity of those formats allows proliferation of really unique stories that push the envelope of creativity. I'm reading 20th Century Boys and it's very intriguing. Naoki Urasawa has such great ability to play with the reader's expectations. I've heard about Monster but haven't read it yet. On the other end of the manga spectrum, I'm digging Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and its follow up series. I'm currently checking out Steel Ball Run.

Sorry for momentary de-railing, now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Counterpunch]

My head hurts from all the generalizing about Japan...

[skywarp-2]

Since this thread topic is about 3rd party companies, I want to see what you guys know of reprolabels?

Ever since the release of the Fan's Project D.I.A. trailer, I have been apprehensive that TF-Con version I own of the Powered commander would be left out of some detail that this newer version would include..the chrome I can live without..

But here is my question, how do we get reprolabels to produce a set of TF-CON stickers based on the D.I.A. stickers which accent the trailer in areas that the TF-CON does not?

Will a 3rd party sticker manufacturer make stickers for a 3rd party upgrade??

here are the images below showing what stickers are on the D.I.A. Powered commander, which are NOT included on the TF-CON powered Commander.






it isn't a big deal... but it is a nice little extra added touch that I think us TF-CON owners would like to include on our versions.. and also, since Fan's Project is rereleasing the City Commander armor/Trailer (retooled none the less ), I am now wondering if that release will include new stickers that those of us who purchased the original City Commander may be missing out on??

So how do we get this from reprolabels and will they also do 3rd party stickers being a 3rd party themselves? What are their prices? How do their stickers hold up and what is the quality like, being a 3rd party company?

[fenrir72]

Reprolabels does a great job with their decals. Especially the one on CC. It really accentuated the CC armor plus converted UM into the fig he was portrayed as in his box. What you are suggesting though skywarp-2 is kinda iffy since, well, you know what I mean, like pirating the DIA/TF-Con label design. Or maybe request Reprolabels to custom design a label sheet for personal use? Oh man what is legal ain't moral or moral ain't not necessarily legal..........

[SKYWARPED_128]

One of the things I appreciate the most is the attitude in Japan towards media like manga and animation. The open view on the validity of those formats allows proliferation of really unique stories that push the envelope of creativity. I'm reading 20th Century Boys and it's very intriguing. Naoki Urasawa has such great ability to play with the reader's expectations. I've heard about Monster but haven't read it yet. On the other end of the manga spectrum, I'm digging Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and its follow up series. I'm currently checking out Steel Ball Run.

Sorry for momentary de-railing, now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

I'm more for the 90's manga artists like Shirow Masamune and Yukito Kishiro. IMO, these guys brought some much-needed respect to manga in foreign countries.

My head hurts from all the generalizing about Japan...

Actually, it isn't generalizing. I have a friend who was born and raised ethnic Japanese, and from what he tells me, Japan as a whole is vastly different from other countries even in this age of of globalization. No matter how many Macdonalds' joints you see in Tokyo, it really isn't another New York.

Manga and anime for grown-ups is a concept invented by the Japanese. They know to differentiate between "kid stuff" and adult material (no, I don't mean AV ). To them animation is just another medium of entertainment. The rest of the world, however, seems to be of the idea that anything animated has to be for children.

That said, manga-reading, PVC-figure-collecting otaku are still considered outcasts of society. Then again, these guys do go overboard.

Bottomline: As long as your room isn't filled to the ceiling with anime figures, DVD's and manga, you can go ahead and collect a few TF's, build the odd Gundam, and you're well within the "non-otaku" zone of Japanese society.

[Rastamus Prime]

My head hurts from all the generalizing about Japan...

Actually, it isn't generalizing. I have a friend who was born and raised ethnic Japanese, and from what he tells me, Japan as a whole is vastly different from other countries even in this age of of globalization. No matter how many Macdonalds' joints you see in Tokyo, it really isn't another New York.

Manga and anime for grown-ups is a concept invented by the Japanese. They know to differentiate between "kid stuff" and adult material (no, I don't mean AV ). To them animation is just another medium of entertainment. The rest of the world, however, seems to be of the idea that anything animated has to be for children.

Not true, America has used animation cartoons for adults as well. Family Guy, South Park, King of The Hill, Simpsons, American Dad! All those shows are for adults and use cartoon animation. Same with video games, you don't see bright, happy kids playing GTA.

That said, manga-reading, PVC-figure-collecting otaku are still considered outcasts of society. Then again, these guys do go overboard.

Bottomline: As long as your room isn't filled to the ceiling with anime figures, DVD's and manga, you can go ahead and collect a few TF's, build the odd Gundam, and you're well within the "non-otaku" zone of Japanese society.

Demographically speaking, yes fanboys/girls "otaku?" of the stuff you stated can get overboard and be very well be outcasted. But it all boils down to the things you do other than that. And people can get wierd. What separates the normals from the wierds is personality. I'm social, and fun to be around. If you didn't see my room, you'd never know I collect Transfomers (god I say it like it's a bad thing.) Let's put it this way, I'd rather be a big TF fan than some kind of sociapathic ass hat.

[Convotron]

I'm more for the 90's manga artists like Shirow Masamune and Yukito Kishiro. IMO, these guys brought some much-needed respect to manga in foreign countries.

Very true! I'm a fan of both creators. I read through Appleseed and Orion repeatedly when I was a kid. I really liked Gunm up until Ashen Victor but after that story arc, the stories became increasingly "emo".

My head hurts from all the generalizing about Japan...

Actually, it isn't generalizing...

I have a similar understanding from my experience with my own Japanese friends and their families. It's not as if Japan is otaku land but there is definitely a more open view on manga, anime, and other media.

Not true, America has used animation cartoons for adults as well. Family Guy, South Park, King of The Hill, Simpsons, American Dad! All those shows are for adults and use cartoon animation. Same with video games, you don't see bright, happy kids playing GTA.

Good point but notice that the examples of American animated shows that cater to adults have 1 thing in common: They're all comedic satire. It's rare for animated work in North America to be catered to adults outside of comedy. However, Beast Wars and TFA are examples within Transformers that have increased the depth and quality of story content in cartoons.

I remember The Raccoons, a Canadian cartoon series from the 80s, used to be on reruns a lot in the 90s and it dealt with a lot of "grown up" issues if you look past the cartoon visuals. I loved that cartoon. I also remember Rock & Rule, which is also from the 80s but I saw it on DVD. The lovely Debbie Harry sings in it...Lou Reed and Iggy Pop are in the movie too.

[Counterpunch]

My head hurts from all the generalizing about Japan...

Actually, it isn't generalizing. I have a friend who was born and raised ethnic Japanese, and from what he tells me

Stop right there.

I'm sorry, but second hand stories about Japan and broad generalizations about a country and culture based upon their pulp fiction does not work for me.

Tell me the Japanese like smaller Transformers because they typically have smaller living spaces. Fine, we can see examples of this.

Tell me that long commutes to work help to create and grow the manga pocket-book phenomenon. Fine. Makes sense.

Taking one example of culture/lifestyle and making it apply to the 'people' as a whole is nuts.

That's all I'm saying.

[skywarp-2]

My head hurts from all the generalizing about Japan...

Actually, it isn't generalizing. I have a friend who was born and raised ethnic Japanese, and from what he tells me

Stop right there.

I'm sorry, but second hand stories about Japan and broad generalizations about a country and culture based upon their pulp fiction does not work for me.

Tell me the Japanese like smaller Transformers because they typically have smaller living spaces. Fine, we can see examples of this.

Tell me that long commutes to work help to create and grow the manga pocket-book phenomenon. Fine. Makes sense.

Taking one example of culture/lifestyle and making it apply to the 'people' as a whole is nuts.

That's all I'm saying.

My daughter is Half Japanese, and most of her family is from there..

I have a good grasp of what the culture is like over there having lived in Kyoto for 3 years, and Guam for 3 years..

the 2 bold statements I agree with.

the last one about generalization of a people as a whole, is not something I also agree with.. so effects culturally on industry are truths in the Japanese culture..Manga was read consistently on trains throughout the city, in most cases given up freely or left on the trains for others to enjoy..much like a news paper.

and CP is indeed correct on his last statement..

[SKYWARPED_128]

Phew, this is getting out of hand...

My head hurts from all the generalizing about Japan...

Actually, it isn't generalizing. I have a friend who was born and raised ethnic Japanese, and from what he tells me

Stop right there.

I'm sorry, but second hand stories about Japan and broad generalizations about a country and culture based upon their pulp fiction does not work for me.

Tell me the Japanese like smaller Transformers because they typically have smaller living spaces. Fine, we can see examples of this.

Tell me that long commutes to work help to create and grow the manga pocket-book phenomenon. Fine. Makes sense.

Taking one example of culture/lifestyle and making it apply to the 'people' as a whole is nuts.

That's all I'm saying.

Duly noted, and I do agree that no single race or ethnicity can be grouped into one typical set of values and personalities. But that wasn't what I was trying to say.

What I wanted to point out is that culture does play a part in social norms. Different countries have their own idea about what is acceptable and what is not. Period.

Very true! I'm a fan of both creators. I read through Appleseed and Orion repeatedly when I was a kid. I really liked Gunm up until Ashen Victor but after that story arc, the stories became increasingly "emo".

I do love Gunnm, especially Kishiro's almost detective-style storytelling. And yes, Ashen Victor should have never been On his Last Order series, though, I feel Kishiro relied too much on Desty Nova's nanotechnology for cheap plot twists. Don't get me wrong, though; I love the idea of exploring Gally's past life as a soldier and all, but having Nova revive her in Salem/Tiphares after blasting her to pieces in the original manga was kind of forced.

I have a similar understanding from my experience with my own Japanese friends and their families. It's not as if Japan is otaku land but there is definitely a more open view on manga, anime, and other media.

Precisely what I was trying to say...maybe I should have been more specific.

Rastamus Prime wrote:Not true, America has used animation cartoons for adults as well. Family Guy, South Park, King of The Hill, Simpsons, American Dad! All those shows are for adults and use cartoon animation. Same with video games, you don't see bright, happy kids playing GTA.



Good point but notice that the examples of American animated shows that cater to adults have 1 thing in common: They're all comedic satire. It's rare for animated work in North America to be catered to adults outside of comedy. However, Beast Wars and TFA are examples within Transformers that have increased the depth and quality of story content in cartoons.

Again, you explained things better than I could, Convotron.

Demographically speaking, yes fanboys/girls "otaku?" of the stuff you stated can get overboard and be very well be outcasted. But it all boils down to the things you do other than that. And people can get wierd. What separates the normals from the wierds is personality. I'm social, and fun to be around. If you didn't see my room, you'd never know I collect Transfomers (god I say it like it's a bad thing.) Let's put it this way, I'd rather be a big TF fan than some kind of sociapathic ass hat.

I totally agree with this, Rastamus. Still, despite the fact that I pump iron six days a week and actually have more (drinking) friends than she does, my girlfriend still makes fun of my geek hobbies...

[Dead Metal]

I
Actually, it isn't generalizing...

I have a similar understanding from my experience with my own Japanese friends and their families. It's not as if Japan is otaku land but there is definitely a more open view on manga, anime, and other media.

Not true, America has used animation cartoons for adults as well. Family Guy, South Park, King of The Hill, Simpsons, American Dad! All those shows are for adults and use cartoon animation. Same with video games, you don't see bright, happy kids playing GTA.

Good point but notice that the examples of American animated shows that cater to adults have 1 thing in common: They're all comedic satire. It's rare for animated work in North America to be catered to adults outside of comedy. However, Beast Wars and TFA are examples within Transformers that have increased the depth and quality of story content in cartoons.

Plus those shows are apart from King of the Hill and South Park still pretty new, if it weren't for the Japanese
and their adult orientated cartoons those shows would never have had a chance.
And every time an American company makes a cartoon for adults it's highly criticised by parents and generally not accepted by the public. As the notion of cartoon = for children is still there, just look at what happened to Invasion America.

I remember The Raccoons, a Canadian cartoon series from the 80s, used to be on reruns a lot in the 90s and it dealt with a lot of "grown up" issues if you look past the cartoon visuals. I loved that cartoon. I also remember Rock & Rule, which is also from the 80s but I saw it on DVD. The lovely Debbie Harry sings in it...Lou Reed and Iggy Pop are in the movie too.

The Raccoons was awesome!

[Counterpunch]

Plus those shows are apart from King of the Hill and South Park still pretty new, if it weren't for the Japanese
and their adult orientated cartoons those shows would never have had a chance.

Oh no, if it weren't for the Tracey Ulman show putting the Simpons on in short clips as well as the crazy popularity of Married with Children at the time, there would be no Simpsons.

The result of the Simpsons was MTV's late hour shows. The Head, Beavis and Butthead, Aeon Flux...all of which had a style and maturity level that was not present in anime at the time.

Anime was pretty much considered Speed-Racer-esq junk until Akira changed all that (as well as a slew of other quickly mimicking violent commercial successes 3x3 Eyes, Vampire Hunter D, etc though the order of their arrival I may have wrong).

America adult animation grew up seperately and distinctly from Japanese anime. ****, even when Akira, Ghost in the Shell, et al was becoming well known and trendy, it was still referred to as 'Japanimation'.

The Tracey Ulman Show, the Simpsons, and MTV are the genesis of American Animation entertainment. It's revisionist history to think that the level of mainstream Anime has today was present in the late 80's and early 90's.

Man...I remember when the only place you could watch Anime was at a University club viewing and even then they'd kick you out if you were too young for the better stuff later at night.

[Rastamus Prime]

Good point but notice that the examples of American animated shows that cater to adults have 1 thing in common: They're all comedic satire. It's rare for animated work in North America to be catered to adults outside of comedy. However, Beast Wars and TFA are examples within Transformers that have increased the depth and quality of story content in cartoons.

I remember The Raccoons, a Canadian cartoon series from the 80s, used to be on reruns a lot in the 90s and it dealt with a lot of "grown up" issues if you look past the cartoon visuals. I loved that cartoon. I also remember Rock & Rule, which is also from the 80s but I saw it on DVD. The lovely Debbie Harry sings in it...Lou Reed and Iggy Pop are in the movie too.

I like Lou Reed, I'm a big Iggy Pop & The Stooges fan.

Anyway, you got me there. Those are all satirical cartoons vs serious cartoons. So I guess the Western hemisphere doesn't embraced anime as much as the Japs do. We do have Marvel comics and DC, which have a long history in the US. Even dating back to WWII. Superman vs the Nazis, my dad has that one. I laugh everytime I see it. But even those are aimed at kids 10-15ish. So in essence we really don't have any serious anime for adults made by the US. My art teacher last year showed me a couple comic books filled with violence, sex and language but I forgot the name of the series. It looked pretty cool from what I saw. I went Snowboarding in Mont Tremblant, Quebec about 3 years ago. When I was in the room we stayed in I saw a show called Chili something... It was definately like Canada's South Park.