The Energon Pub

Yeah, my thoughts lean towards the side of legality for custom work because they're one offs and though this doesn't prove anything, I was under the assumption that eBay doesn't allow illegal items to be sold through them. Since they allow custom Transformers to be listed, I was thinking they'd be legal items.

@ El Duque. Both of us think alike. Let me repeat again, with regards to FP and (including reprolabels). What's the difference between them and the manufacturers of car custom parts? If Transformers wasn't a hot tamale, would anyone be splitting hairs then?

I make a bad@ss turbocharger thingamabob whatchamacalit and attach it to my let's say Honda Civic. It made my car look as cool as ice. It wasn't certified by Honda, so should Honda sue the maker of the custom part?, I added a couple of decals (okay the autobot/decepticon sigil is copyrighted I'll give you that)should Takara/Hasbro also run after reprolabels? What's the difference between the two companies anyway?

Why has it become such an issue against 3rd party developers anyway? The iGear fig though Mini MP Convoy, now that's walking over thin ice, I'd grant you that but the custom add-on parts manufacturers, why the sudden hate(?) focused on them?

They make money over our fantasies (and also add a ton of sweat with their own engineering designs)by giving us what we want .....CC which HasTak didn't find economically viable. Should we fault the guys at FP for filling in the vacuum? That's how capitalism works people. IPR issues not withstanding, but what is good for the goose must also be good for the gander. Custom car parts are legit while custom toy parts aren't?

Counterpunch wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:Then there is Third Party merchandise which is usually of a make and mold that is unique. Third Party merchandise may or may not violate intellectual property rights, but it is unique product that is not constructed off of existing product or materials. City Commander is an example here.

You are grouping licensed third party items with unlicensed third party items and this makes your statement inaccurate. Some Third Party companies receive the right to make Transformer products from Hasbro or Takara. Other Third Party companies do not and are thus unlicensed products. Therefore, third party categories would be broken into two groups.

Counterpunch wrote:Third Party merchandise may or may not violate intellectual property rights

It does not make my statement inaccurate. All you're doing is pressing a point which is not relevant to the reason my response was given.

For that matter, I could counter your need to differentiate by stating that once the product is licensed by Hasbro, it isn't really a 3rd party product because the point of the licensing agreement/review is to ensure that the product conforms to standards and/or practices that Hasbro would have otherwise implemented for the product. Production by proxy with the intellectual property matter remaining with Hasbro, the intellectual property for the merchandise design remaining with the 3rd party...

eh...

the point is, the fact that I did not nor felt not the need to go into further specifics regarding the licensing or failure to license 3rd party merchandise does not disqualify my statement.

You can't though, it needs to be a fourth category. Because to me unlicensed third party knockoffs are in the same category as regular KOs, yet licensed products would be part of the Transformer world.

And licensed 3rd party items happen all the time, you can say it's part of the Hasbro umbrella. Many companies design from scratch their items with Hasbro or Takaras approval, so it is indeed a third party effort, just with the proper licensing.

fenrir72 wrote:@ El Duque. Both of us think alike. Let me repeat again, with regards to FP and (including reprolabels). What's the difference between them and the manufacturers of car custom parts? If Transformers wasn't a hot tamale, would anyone be splitting hairs then?

I make a bad@ss turbocharger thingamabob whatchamacalit and attach it to my let's say Honda Civic. It made my car look as cool as ice. It wasn't certified by Honda, so should Honda sue the maker of the custom part?, I added a couple of decals (okay the autobot/decepticon sigil is copyrighted I'll give you that)should Takara/Hasbro also run after reprolabels? What's the difference between the two companies anyway?

Why has it become such an issue against 3rd party developers anyway? The iGear fig though Mini MP Convoy, now that's walking over thin ice, I'd grant you that but the custom add-on parts manufacturers, why the sudden hate(?) focused on them?

They make money over our fantasies (and also add a ton of sweat with their own engineering designs)by giving us what we want .....CC which HasTak didn't find economically viable. Should we fault the guys at FP for filling in the vacuum? That's how capitalism works people. IPR issues not withstanding, but what is good for the goose must also be good for the gander. Custom car parts are legit while custom toy parts aren't?

If you want to associate cars with this, think of it this way. People customize Transformers all the time, but they don't go selling it as a product from Hasbro. To me the Magnus Armor is like Clear taillights, they look cool, but do not meet DOT approval. So theoretically, while you might like it and enjoy it, you really can't bed driving your car with them. Then on the other hand, some companies went through the approval process with the DOT for their lights and had them approved, and now they are being offered through dealerships as approved accessories.

Convotron wrote:Yeah, my thoughts lean towards the side of legality for custom work because they're one offs and though this doesn't prove anything, I was under the assumption that eBay doesn't allow illegal items to be sold through them. Since they allow custom Transformers to be listed, I was thinking they'd be legal items.

Here is the difference in this Convotron..

A person Who purchases a Transformer, customizes it, and then resells it online is not the same as a 3rd party who manufactures a whole toyline or figure line geared towards transformers..

the customizer has:

1. already bought a Hasbro Product

2. Once you buy the toy, it's yours to do with whatever you wish

3. Selling it online as a custom piece is considered art..

4. Selling it online as a custom and not as an officially licensed product is legal.

technically you could try and argue that the City commander armor set for Ultra Magnus is a piece of art, and should be protected under that since It doesn't "say" Transformers in it's packaging..

but see, this subject is very complicated, and there are so many nuances associated with it..
I can see why it would be a subject difficult to enforce in a court of law..the problem is that international laws are different where ever you go..and in some cases no matter how much Pull Hasbro or Takara Tomy has, there may be nothing "legally" they could do to stop it..

Trying to go round and round to figure out what this all means seems silly and fruitless to me.. I think we should just go ahead and basically establish that the 3rd party market is here, and whether you like them or not..it is what it is..

the arguments over one aspect or another "should" get back to the root of this entire thread..

How should seibertron.com report and have the discussions on this subject available to the fan community??

1. A Separate Discussion thread?

2. No News Coverage?

3. Some News Coverage?

4. Do nothing, leave it the way it is??

5. Etc...Etc..

Edit: Actually, with the premise at the start of this thread..set up by Counterpunch..I suppose it's a free for all in terms of discussion and debate.. So....... Have at it!

trying to bring order to chaos when the original intent was not to have order in the first place seems fruitless...Maybe we should have a thread just dedicated to how Seibertron.com will display and report on 3rd party Merchandise.. that would probably go a long way towards making some kind of progress to this subject..

Counterpunch wrote:Not official does not equal 'knock-off'.

We're arguing semantics here, but this is why semantics matter.

There are knock-offs...otherwise known as reproductions of existing product, almost always of inferior quality in order to justify a lower cost.

Then there are bootlegs, which may or may not be reproductions of existing product and while they are often of inferior quality, at times they are of standard acceptable quality. The oversized Rollers for MP Convoy are an example of this.

Then there is Third Party merchandise which is usually of a make and mold that is unique. Third Party merchandise may or may not violate intellectual property rights, but it is unique product that is not constructed off of existing product or materials. City Commander is an example here.

While I agree with your statement, when we try to sort out all the differences in the 3rd party world, we run the risk of oversimplifying and overcomplicating at the same time. Sure if we wanna break down non official products into certain catagories, we can, but there would be alot of dang catagories and for the sake of the news and Seibertron.com, we have to group them in one part: Non official Transformers.

Like I said, I absolutely love some of the stuff coming out and have some of it to boot (and I'm not even a real collector, my collections so small Counterpunchs Minicons alone would put it to shame) but that doesn't make me change my mind on what the product is: Non Has/Tak.

I personally feel that the news about 3rd party items is worthy and would love to continue posting it as such but given the frequency of these "add ons" and "reproductions", we may have to figure out some other avenue of reporting on them without them dominating the REAL Transformers news.

Extra categories in the news are fine and won't do anything but make news sorting easier. I'm for that.

My point regarding news in general is that to segregate these stories into some kind of weird 'non-official' category is too much.

Counterpunch wrote:Extra categories in the news are fine and won't do anything but make news sorting easier. I'm for that.

My point regarding news in general is that to segregate these stories into some kind of weird 'non-official' category is too much.

You'll get no argument from me on that.

First Gen wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:Extra categories in the news are fine and won't do anything but make news sorting easier. I'm for that.

My point regarding news in general is that to segregate these stories into some kind of weird 'non-official' category is too much.

You'll get no argument from me on that.

I agree.

Ay caramba! Getter Dragoon, my point exactly, but again another can of worms are openned. Jizai Toys did them uber expensive but on a limited license figs. So the drawback then would be an uber expensive from slightly expensive FP/iGear/TFC unlicensed product? Ouch!

In an analogy to custom car parts, it would be nice to have an officially endorsed 3rd party product ( well like videogame accessories for let's say PS series to the Nintendo to Xbox etc) the offical endorsement usually but not always guarantees strict quality control (if that's what we're after)though most often an endorsement means that it has passed the company's standard. But at a price.

Again the price and the warranty nullification by using an unlicensed product plus all the legal mumbojumbo that comes with the package. And to some the psychological effect of having thee satisfaction of owning an improved product or another point, purists who just can't accept anything else than the offical licensed product.

This subject is kind of getting nowhere making my head hurt..........turning to mush, like that of Grimlock's

This debate has really gone around the block before I even noticed it and any debate points I have, have already been brought up so I'll put it the way it impacts me as in my collection I have a number of items that come under this topic so:

Direct Knock-offs:
A number of Cassettes, Raiden.
These are straight rip-jobs, I was fully aware of the fact when I bought them, If anyone asks I say right out which are official and which aren't. I payed good money for them and everything was above the board. Yes, the manufacturing of these is a violation of multiple copyrights but honestly that is Hasbro, Takara and their teams of lawyers to enforce and shut down.
Damage to Has/Tak at that time was none, but as they are now producing them under Encore, It is possible I would have waited longer for those had they been announced earlier, or had been part of the Book/box series.

Questionable Items:
WS Dino's.
Items like these and the mini masterpiece are interesting to me. In one sense clearly a lot of work had to be done by the manufacturer to replicate the original designs in a smaller scale. However there is no denying that they are at heart KO's. Now I do have a set of the Dino's, which I went after in a need to get versions of toys I loved, but never got to have as a kid. I found the smaller size to be novel and took a chance with them. At least with the Dinos they are based on items 2 decades old, but in the case of Mini Prime I just don't see the point. It simply seems like they want to make a MP Prime that will fit with their Ark playsets.
Damage to Has/Tak, well in order to fill my need for Dinobots, the only way it would effect them is if they were looking at reissues, which seem to be out of the question right now, and what they have done (Animated Dinobots) I picked up regardless. I have no interest in the Mini Prime and I'll leave it at that.

3rd Party Add-ons:
City Commander, G3 trailer, Superion Add-on pack, Reprolabels (custom not reproductions).
Are there questions arising if items are infringing on copyrights? Hell yes, but are they Knock-offs? IMO No. These are items that have not been previously made available, and while there is a valid concern on the part that they are working with known characters as the base for their releases, they are wholly new creations, built to fill the needs of fans that Has/Tak made clear choices to ignore or opt against.
Damage to Has/Tak. Damage? This made me spend more. I was happy with just having the Magnus/SW 2-pack. As I liked the mold but unlike the Seekers I felt one was enough. Once I received the CC armor, I ended up buying a Prime to fill that mold as really once in the armor, you don't see it anymore. Now I already had (2) I also bought Nemesis when i saw him cheap as I had already preordered G3. The same with Superion, I have the full Energon release and was happy, and the only reason I got the ROTF one is that one of the 2 will be in the add-on pack. So thanks to FP, My purchase of 6 legitimate figures became 15.

3rd party full figures:
Battle Roller.
Touchy subject, because of what criteria is used. In the case of Battle Roller, this is a character that has had no real attributes so the figure really is completely worked up by the manufacturer. (which is why I bought him) But it is at heart an existing character and when it comes to a stand alone re-imagining of Springer with a full known fan expectaion of what it should look like in all forms, especially as there have been Springer releases in the past few years, I question the move by FP. For their other ideas for a full on combiner based on their own materials, I look forward to them because that is an original release and is no different from Road-bots, or any other original property out there.
Damage to Has/Tak. Well, BR really is no skin of their backs, and I have no plan to get Springer, or any other 3-party reimagine done in the same way, so the only damage is that my wallet may be lighter when I walk into TRU.



As for the News debate. All the 3rd party products and knock-offs regardless of quality or source are of interest to people interested enough in TF's to visit sites like Seibertron and others. Whether your personal interest is based on liking the releases or reviled that someone would try to put them out. The question really is what motivation that the site and the news moderators have.

If the intent is to have a site that wishes to stay on the side of Has/Tak, and that concern trumps all. Then only officially sanctioned items should be discussed and sanctioned for news stories.

If the intent is to be a source of information for the fans, then it their duty to keep abreast of any and all developments that will be of interest to fans, which includes the announcement, development, and release details for all products regardless of manufacturer. This should cover Hasbro, Takara, all license holders, 3rd party add-ons and/or stand-alones and products of similar nature that would appeal to TF fans (GIJoe Cycle Armor, Robotech/Macross/MOSPEADA mecha releases)

I haven't yet bought a third party item.
Then again I don't have a classics Optimus or a Classics Ultra Magnus (as pathetic as that sounds for a collector) to put any of those Commander sets on. And as far as KOs go, I really won't touch them. Though if Takara doesn't re-release a G1 Devastator, I will buy myself a KO since I heard the quality is comparable to the original. That being said, I feel it's up to the individual's personality. Not al TF collectors are the same, so what you value you need for your collection is up to you.

I've got a simple little point I'd like to interject to sum up my view on this whole "Hasbro/Takara Tomy" affecting their business argument..

How does my buying a 3rd party product affect Hasbro/Takara Tomy's Bottom Line??

When I buy a 3rd party Add-on, full figure, Knock off, Bootleg, etc.. It affects my wallet..

To Date, My wallet has not been designated to be spent specifically for Hasbro/Takara Tomy Products..

So honestly?

I can spend my money where I like.

If I choose to buy a Hamburger, Cigarrettes, or a beer over a Transformers toy, then it hurts Hasbro/Takara Tomy..

If I choose to put gas in my car instead of buying a Transformer toy, then it hurts Hasbro/Takara Tomy...

If I choose to Buy a Macross transformable toy instead of Buying a Transformer toy, then it hurts Hasbro/Takara Tomy...

If I buy a DVD instead of Buying a Transformer toy, then it hurts Hasbro/Takara Tomy...


where does it end??

I bought the FP G3 trailer, both city commander and powered commander Armor/Trailer upgrades, and will continue to buy more 3rd party products..

it is your right to spend your money where ever you want..any money you spend on anything, other then an "Officially licensed transformer".. Hurts Hasbro/Takara Tomy..

skywarp-2 wrote:How does my buying a 3rd party product affect Hasbro/Takara Tomy's Bottom Line??

One of the points I made early on that seems to be largely ignored is the idea of loss without injury.

Now, Has/Tak may lose a sale as a result of City Commander or the G3 trailer if at some point they had designs to release a collector oriented Ultra Magnus or Classics Prime Complete.

It's entirely possible that a new Classics Ultra Magnus was on the drawing board and was scrapped because the need and/or desire for one was killed by City Commander being released.

If Has/Tak could show that they were in development of such product but that the market changed due to a violation of their Inellectual Property rights, then they could prove that FansProject created a loss and an injury to their ability to earn money.

It's that simple.

Now, what I think actually happened, was that Has/Tak had NO plans for a Classics Ultra Magnus nor for a Classics Prime Complete edition. Same example with CC and G3 going here... (Note that I do not accept the opinion that either the CC or the G3 trailer by themselves violate Hasbro's IP. They are trailers that are sold and NOT characters. They may look similar to existing character traits, but they are not the character right themselves)

Has/Tak may lose in the future because these products would be existing competition for their own releases, but they would not be injured as there was no design to call into jeapordy.

The law does not provide a remedy for every action that creates loss for you.

skywarp-2 wrote:
it is your right to spend your money where ever you want..any money you spend on anything, and not on an "Officially licensed transformer".. Hurts Hasbro/Takara Tomy..

Very true, but screw Hasbro/Takara, Any thing I spend on one item whether its collectables, food, rent, personal care whatever, is a choice to benefit one group of companies over all others. It you want to look at solely from hurting Has/Tak on any expenditure ever, then it would be more important to buy the crappiest mini-con than to pay your taxes, eat or have a roof overhead.

The legitimate way is to only look at the disposable income you personally dedicate for things of this nature, in that case for me than Hasbro has more to worry about from Nintendo, Del Rey, or Bandai getting my money as they get more than Fansproject, and for that matter so does Takara.

Honestly, do Joe fans get in the same arguments about other crappy 3&3.1/4 action figures, or add-on weapon packs from Marauder?

Editor wrote:Damage to Has/Tak. Damage? This made me spend more. I was happy with just having the Magnus/SW 2-pack. As I liked the mold but unlike the Seekers I felt one was enough. Once I received the CC armor, I ended up buying a Prime to fill that mold as really once in the armor, you don't see it anymore. Now I already had (2) I also bought Nemesis when i saw him cheap as I had already preordered G3. The same with Superion, I have the full Energon release and was happy, and the only reason I got the ROTF one is that one of the 2 will be in the add-on pack. So thanks to FP, My purchase of 6 legitimate figures became 15.

I was gonna say this probably had no effect toward Has/Tak as the additional figures purchase were probably secondhand or an online store with leftover stock and Nemesis Prime would almost surely have sold out regardless...but then I remembered Henkei. I'm sure Takara is selling more Henkei Convoys as a result of the DIA/Power Commander and trailers and it's possible more Nemesis Primes are being sold overseas where they're sold at retail as well.

skywarp-2 wrote:I've got a simple little point I'd like to interject to sum up my view on this whole "Hasbro/Takara Tomy" affecting their business argument..

How does my buying a 3rd party product affect Hasbro/Takara Tomy's Bottom Line??

When I buy a 3rd party Add-on, full figure, Knock off, Bootleg, etc.. It affects my wallet..

To Date, My wallet has not been designated to be spent specifically for Hasbro/Takara Tomy Products..

So honestly?

I can spend my money where I like.

If I choose to buy a Hamburger, Cigarrettes, or a beer over a Transformers toy, then it hurts Hasbro/Takara Tomy..

If I choose to put gas in my car instead of buying a Transformer toy, then it hurts Hasbro/Takara Tomy...

If I choose to Buy a Macross transformable toy instead of Buying a Transformer toy, then it hurts Hasbro/Takara Tomy...

If I buy a DVD instead of Buying a Transformer toy, then it hurts Hasbro/Takara Tomy...


where does it end??

I bought the FP G3 trailer, both city commander and powered commander Armor/Trailer upgrades, and will continue to buy more 3rd party products..

it is your right to spend your money where ever you want..any money you spend on anything, and not on an "Officially licensed transformer".. Hurts Hasbro/Takara Tomy..

It's not about the degree of damage to a company, it's the fact that some unofficial products serve to compete directly with a company's products by way of theft of designs and concepts that belong to that company. That's one of the basic reasons why copyright and intellectual property laws exist.

It's the right of a person in most countries to do what they will with their money within the confines of the law. It's not the right of a person to buy illegal products in most countries. Some 3rd party products are proven to be illegal by their nature such as knock offs as they are counterfeit items. My ability to buy a KO isn't the result of a legally granted right, it's the fact that I and/or the seller didn't get caught.

Let's not confuse "rights" with the ability to get away with doing something.

Counterpunch wrote:

skywarp-2 wrote:How does my buying a 3rd party product affect Hasbro/Takara Tomy's Bottom Line??

One of the points I made early on that seems to be largely ignored is the idea of loss without injury.

Now, Has/Tak may lose a sale as a result of City Commander or the G3 trailer if at some point they had designs to release a collector oriented Ultra Magnus or Classics Prime Complete.

It's entirely possible that a new Classics Ultra Magnus was on the drawing board and was scrapped because the need and/or desire for one was killed by City Commander being released.

If Has/Tak could show that they were in development of such product but that the market changed due to a violation of their Inellectual Property rights, then they could prove that FansProject created a loss and an injury to their ability to earn money.

It's that simple.

Now, what I think actually happened, was that Has/Tak had NO plans for a Classics Ultra Magnus nor for a Classics Prime Complete edition. Same example with CC and G3 going here... (Note that I do not accept the opinion that either the CC or the G3 trailer by themselves violate Hasbro's IP. They are trailers that are sold and NOT characters. They may look similar to existing character traits, but they are not the character right themselves)

Has/Tak may lose in the future because these products would be existing competition for their own releases, but they would not be injured as there was no design to call into jeapordy.

The law does not provide a remedy for every action that creates loss for you.

problem is that Hasbro/Takara Tomy has no rights to my money.. indirectly or not.. you could say that Hasbro created a complete Ultra Magnus set..



But honestly given the choice between that figure and the Classics Version With Armor:

I think I got a better deal.. Hasbro had their chance to do one, they didn't whether they had plans to or not.. they didn't release it.. time counts for a lot of things in the market..competition is a natural staple in the free market..a monopoly breeds only what those in the power of production decree available..

this type of problem is no longer an issue.. we now have a viable 3rd party market to make those things Hasbro/Takara Tomy refuses to acknowledge even with Full and outright fan support.. even fan support that amounts to internet shouting..

so I spent my money where I wanted.. did it indirectly hurt Hasbro/Takara Tomy?? well maybe...

but that is subjective..

see what if they did release a classics Ultra Magnus set, and it sucked compared to the FP version..

so I buy the FP version..

does that mean it hurt Hasbro because of the 3rd party choice, or because the "official version" sucked??

Convotron wrote:It's not about the degree of damage to a company, it's the fact that some unofficial products serve to compete directly with a company's products by way of theft of designs and concepts that belong to that company. That's one of the basic reasons why copyright and intellectual property laws exist.

It's the right of a person in most countries to do what they will with their money within the confines of the law. It's not the right of a person to buy illegal products in most countries. Some 3rd party products are proven to be illegal by their nature such as knock offs as they are counterfeit items. My ability to buy a KO isn't the result of a legally granted right, it's the fact that I and/or the seller didn't get caught.

Let's not confuse "rights" with the ability to get away with doing something.

well if we are getting technically intrinsic then let's look at it this way.. By law there have been no cases that establish anything I have purchased via 3rd party to be "illegal"

so technically my right to purchase still stands.. as nothing I have bought has technically been against the law since no prosecution has yet been levied..

so as of right now, I am doing nothing wrong.. until a prosecution is made against a 3rd party I purchased from, the precedent that that specific product is illegal has yet to be established..

you can't say something is illegal by nature, unless it has been proven illegal by nature in a court of law.. until then it is the same as those street vendors in italy that sell "reproductions" AKA "Knock offs" of the Mona Lisa..

Counterpunch wrote:

skywarp-2 wrote:How does my buying a 3rd party product affect Hasbro/Takara Tomy's Bottom Line??

One of the points I made early on that seems to be largely ignored is the idea of loss without injury.

Now, Has/Tak may lose a sale as a result of City Commander or the G3 trailer if at some point they had designs to release a collector oriented Ultra Magnus or Classics Prime Complete.

It's entirely possible that a new Classics Ultra Magnus was on the drawing board and was scrapped because the need and/or desire for one was killed by City Commander being released.

If Has/Tak could show that they were in development of such product but that the market changed due to a violation of their Inellectual Property rights, then they could prove that FansProject created a loss and an injury to their ability to earn money.

It's that simple.

Now, what I think actually happened, was that Has/Tak had NO plans for a Classics Ultra Magnus nor for a Classics Prime Complete edition. Same example with CC and G3 going here... (Note that I do not accept the opinion that either the CC or the G3 trailer by themselves violate Hasbro's IP. They are trailers that are sold and NOT characters. They may look similar to existing character traits, but they are not the character right themselves)

Has/Tak may lose in the future because these products would be existing competition for their own releases, but they would not be injured as there was no design to call into jeapordy.

The law does not provide a remedy for every action that creates loss for you.

I think this is a very important point, but I also think that international law won't honor this. But I don't know for sure.

skywarp-2 wrote:problem is that Hasbro/Takara Tomy has no rights to my money..

In other news, water is good for drinking, food is good for eating, and air is good for breathing.

You're getting 'out there' with your arguments. Saying 'Takara has no rights to my money' was such an outlandish claim that it distracted from other relevant points you might try to make.

Mentioning Titanium Ultra Magnus might be a fair discussion point, one which I will eventually disagree with the relevance of, but the first statement you made was too off and too distracting.

Counterpunch wrote:

skywarp-2 wrote:problem is that Hasbro/Takara Tomy has no rights to my money..

In other news, water is good for drinking, food is good for eating, and air is good for breathing.

You're getting 'out there' with your arguments. Saying 'Takara has no rights to my money' was such an outlandish claim that it distracted from other relevant points you might try to make.

Mentioning Titanium Ultra Magnus might be a fair discussion point, one which I will eventually disagree with the relevance of, but the first statement you made was too off and too distracting.

I think we're getting too far off base here gents.

Its really hard to argue the rights and wrongs of the Upgrade Kits without a true definition of Intellectual law at hand and the most common interpetation of that law.

Now, getting back on subject, should this be content that should be reflected on Seibertron.com as actual news? Do we consider non official items all 3rd party or is there a grey area?

We won't ever see a Classics Prime with trailer from Hasbro. Just like we will never see a Classics Ultra Magnus with trailer/armour, CP you said it yourself after BotCon08 that the Hasbro designers themselves where sad they couldn't make those things as the big ones at Hasbro decided that releasing Classics Prime or Magnus with a trailer was bad business and wouldn't be profitable.

And to those that believe that Hasbro will eventually make a Classics Prime and Magnus set with trailers based of the Classics Prime mold, forget it it will never happen, not just based on the top statement but also based on the fact that the Classics Prime mold is f**ked, it's been used so many times that the mold has already degraded and the Magnus version had to go on clearance as it didn't sell so well, heck you could get UM for under 10 dollars at one point, it was the CC trailer that created demand for him.

Personally I like the idea of 3rd party products like the Autoscout, and ad-ons ala City Commander and the G3 trailer or the Superion ad-on those items just add something to the base figure. Personally I regard only the "creative" or "own designed" items as 3rd party products you know the ones that have been created as an original product and are not copies of an already existing product like the upcoming mini MP Prime. That's what I like about FansProject, everything they sell is their own design yes they are based of already existing Transformers things, but they are always designed and engineered by FP themselves and always improve an already existing toy. True they did reveal plans to make full figures like Springer, but I think they may be rethinking that, although I don't see hwo they can't release those as they do look very different from the originals while there are other 3rd party things that look exactly like the cartoon incarnations and they get no stress form Hasbro.

Now weren't it for the FP Superion kit, I wouldn't have bought the ROTF Superion in the first place, man that toy sucks without the set.

Also yes these things are news, more so than holidays.

Counterpunch wrote:

skywarp-2 wrote:problem is that Hasbro/Takara Tomy has no rights to my money..

In other news, water is good for drinking, food is good for eating, and air is good for breathing.

You're getting 'out there' with your arguments. Saying 'Takara has no rights to my money' was such an outlandish claim that it distracted from other relevant points you might try to make.

Mentioning Titanium Ultra Magnus might be a fair discussion point, one which I will eventually disagree with the relevance of, but the first statement you made was too off and too distracting.

Not at all.... my statement was meant to merely contrast the difference in point of view..

you are arguing from the corporate perspective.. Hasbro's rights and legal rights under the law.. or indirect harm..

I am arguing from the Consumer perspective.. My right to purchase anything I choose.. and how my choices, may affect another company, but that is your right as a consumer and the companies business practices to keep you interested in their product..if they don't produce what you like you can spend your money where ever else is interesting to you..

I just chose an exceptionally colorful way to show the contrast...

I appreciate your concern over my choice of examples and shock value, but I'm not going off the reservation so to speak.. I am still holding firmly to the ground in this debate..

(with no sarcasm, seriously) but thanks for looking out for me CP, that is very Brotherly of you

Dead Metal wrote:the Magnus version had to go on clearance as it didn't sell so well, heck you could get UM for under 10 dollars at one point, it was the CC trailer that created demand for him.

A fact few people seem to realize or are just completely ignoring altogether. I wouldn't have Magnus had my wife not got the two pack for me as a "suprise". I didn't even take Magnus out of the box til I found out about City Commander.

Dead Metal wrote:Now weren't it for the FP Superion kit, I wouldn't have bought the ROTF Superion in the first place, man that toy sucks without the set.

Again, I bought the ROTF version just so I could get the upgrade also. Like Magnus, it remains in package til said upgrade is received. Now the whole money to pay for it part......

Dead Metal wrote:Also yes these things are news, more so than holidays.

Nice add on there.

First Gen wrote:
Now, getting back on subject, should this be content that should be reflected on Seibertron.com as actual news? Do we consider non official items all 3rd party or is there a grey area?

As per my prior response:

All the 3rd party products and knock-offs regardless of quality or source are of interest to people interested enough in TF's to visit sites like Seibertron and others. Whether your personal interest is based on liking the releases or reviled that someone would try to put them out. The question really is what motivation that the site and the news moderators have.

If the intent is to have a site that wishes to stay on the side of Has/Tak, and that concern trumps all. Then only officially sanctioned items should be discussed and sanctioned for news stories.

If the intent is to be a source of information for the fans, then it their duty to keep abreast of any and all developments that will be of interest to fans, which includes the announcement, development, and release details for all products regardless of manufacturer. This should cover Hasbro, Takara, all license holders, 3rd party add-ons and/or stand-alones and products of similar nature that would appeal to TF fans (GIJoe Cycle Armor, Robotech/Macross/MOSPEADA mecha releases)

Here is my question to the News Crew. Do you see your yourselves as an extension of Hasbro's marketing department, or an independent web site that exists to help fans, and other parties looking for information.

Because, and not to mince words, people use this site to keep up to date on the world of TF's. To disregard those products, simply because they don't come out of Hasbro or Takara directly is a disservice to the fandom at large.