The Energon Pub

See people get it!

I understand the appeal of these third party toys, but it is getting out of hand. The Ultra Magnus armor originally appeared to be a fan made custom that was produced, kind of like how these localized TF conventions have their "exclusive", but now it is out of hand. I also think the focus of these toys are getting out of hand, they are still knockoffs and should be left to the one thread that discusses them anot given the fan fare that they are currently receiving.

GetterDragun wrote:See people get it!

No one ever said they didn't get it. There's discussion to be had on the matter and it's clearly not a picture to be painted in black and white.

And really, until an intellectual property rights lawyer comments on this (and really only when a judge makes a determination), we're all just speculating about where the 'legal' boundaries are.

GetterDragun wrote:And your view of intellectual property is incorrect, while Hasbro never made a City Commander like they did, it is a violation of Ultra Magnus as a character.

Points made from in the last legal debate that seem relevant here:

If the above is true, then is Hasbro not making the same violations with every realistic alt mode they use that isn't officially licensed; ie ROTF Sideways or Universe Sunstreaker/Sideswipe, etc, and so on, etc?

Or what's the difference between Hasbro making a Classics Jetfire when they're not getting permission from the Robotech dudes vs. FP making a figure that resembles Springer?

Well this thread frayed quickly. We've had this arguement before. We all start talking about what we think is "legal" and "right" and that the two are rarely the same and no one is willing to budge an inch. At least this time it hasn't devolved into petty jibs and insults yet.

Personally, I find it funny that under the "offical is only" way of thinking, the Mickey Mouse Optimus Prime and Nike Shoeformer Megatron are okay but City Commander and the Unicron.com Animated Allspark aren't!

Counterpunch wrote:What legitimacy do these products have for collectors?

Whatever legitimacy they choose to assign to them. I lean more towards brand loyalty myself, but I've found myself buying more and more third-party products lately.

Do the concerns of/risks to Hasbro and their property rights have any effect on you or your purchases?

A bit.

The first third-party products I bought were the molded heads for G1 Ironhide and Ratchet. I would not have picked up those encores without that third-party product. So Takara made some money off me that they would not have otherwise made.

Since then, I've bought the four Quintesson figures, Spike and Sparkplug, and the Optimus and Magnus trailers. If Hasbro had released versions of those characters, I would have gone with those. Since they didn't, I went where I could find them.

Where do you draw the line? Is there a line to be drawn?

Hasbro has lost no money from me due to these products. I bought the G3 Trailer set last week, and I will not buy the ROTF Prime. Did Hasbro lose money to Fansproject? Nope. I wasn't going to buy the Prime figure, anyway.

If I ever find myself thinking, "Boy, I would like that Hasbro product, but I need to save my money for that third-party toy," then I would need to draw a line. Because at that point, I'm essentially taking money from Hasbro and giving it to a third-party based on Hasbro's creations.

Other collectors may have crossed my particular line. That's a choice they have to make. But as Hasbro alluded to at BotCon this year, if they feel they are losing money to these third-parties, they are going to take action. And I'll have trouble holding that against them.

Lastly, as your news source, we want to know how these products should be addressed both as news and as relevant topics. Are third-party products something that betray the consumer relationship between Has/Tak, Transformers, and the fans? Are we as a news source obligated to defend that relationship in any regard?

I wonder if this site may blurr the lines between fandom and reporting, so it's a little difficult to answer. On the one hand, you don't want to do anything to tick off Hasbro. There's a lot of stuff on here that may be in a legal hot zone; I don't know. On the other hand, where else am I gonna find out if/when the Rodimus upgrade set is gonna come out?

Kibble wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:And your view of intellectual property is incorrect, while Hasbro never made a City Commander like they did, it is a violation of Ultra Magnus as a character.

Points made from in the last legal debate that seem relevant here:

If the above is true, then is Hasbro not making the same violations with every realistic alt mode they use that isn't officially licensed; ie ROTF Sideways or Universe Sunstreaker/Sideswipe, etc, and so on, etc?

Or what's the difference between Hasbro making a Classics Jetfire when they're not getting permission from the Robotech dudes vs. FP making a figure that resembles Springer?

I thought Hasbro had to gain rights for vehicle use? Isn't that why we haven't seen a Bumblebee with a VW Beetle alt mode for some time now?

Classics Jetfire isn't based on the Valkyrie VF-1S. However, I learned earlier from one of CP's posts in this thread that Hasbro did make a deal with Bandai for the rights to use the VF-1S toy design for G1 Jetfire. More of this is elaborated on in tfwiki's entry for G1 Skyfire.

tfwiki wrote:Bob Prupis, one of the original members of the Transformers marketing team, would frequently go to Toy Fairs in Asia, where "any product that really looked good that was exciting we didn't care where it came from. We did some work with Bandai, who had been working with other people, and took a few products that looked right for our line".

Now I don't know if the licensing agreement has expired but the Classics Skyfire/Jetfire mold is more of a hybrid design that heavily uses the G1 cartoon model. However it does seem to take some aspects from the VF-1S(booster pack, helmet accessory design).

I do see FP's "Defender"/Springer project as something with more potential to gain attention from Hasbro's legal department since it's a full figure toy design and that there are "Springers" currently in the market in the form of the Universe version(Evac repaint) and the RotF version(Legends class figure, which looks cool). I thought, though, that Defender was cancelled or am I mistaken? I thought I read speculation that FP backed off on Defender after Hasbro made a statement at the last Botcon that there was definite objection to 3rd party products in the form of full figures priced at $100+.

Convotron wrote:I thought, though, that Defender was cancelled or am I mistaken? I thought I read speculation that FP backed off on Defender after Hasbro made a statement at the last Botcon that there was definite objection to 3rd party products in the form of full figures priced at $100+.

A lot of people keep thinking that but Fans Project simply hasn't said anything reguarding the Defender. What we were shown was the early concept art and since they aren't even planning to release Protector until 2010, Defender and the like may be up to 2 years away.

It's not cancelled, they just haven't started it yet so there's nothing to say.

I repeat a simple answer to all the legal mumbo jumbo. Do what Jizai toys did, pay some royalties and confine it to a specific duration of time (like their Wheelie and Cyclonus product)if FP wants to release a full pledged Defender fig, Junkion etc. Other than that, good luck to them, but if properly packaged, they can call their products morphers or something, just not transformers. Color applications aside though (hopefully Hasbro/Takara hasn't copyrighted Springers green/yellow paint apps ).

The add-ons like City Commander or even the G-3 trailer ( a bit iffy here in this regard because it looks like but is not really the G1 Trailer,you can argue that it looks like a generic container flatbed with a robot crane inside hehehe) IMHO aren't that much illegal as you can also use as an analogy customization or "pimping" of existing branded cars turned into Hotrods or racers. You add an extra turbo charged engine or muffler (well that sure voids the warranty)but does it infringe on the TM? I don't think so. If that's the case then GM, Ford and Chrysler would have gone after the manufacturers of the custom parts.

What I do with my product after my purchase is up to me (exception I believe to digital software thanks to the DMCA). If I want to customize it then I'll be d@mned. If it voids the warranty, well I'll live with it. Heck this could even be a symbiotic relationship between HasTak and 3rd party manufacturers.

As M-Stat-Loc stated with regards to the IH and Ratchet heads, (though I did purchase the Encores first then later Reprolabels' upgrade heads), it adds an extra incentive to purchase a toy and later customize it to make it look more like the being we all grew up with in the animation. Not all of us have mad skills like Jin Saotome but ........well you get my point, it makes customization easier for the unskilled masses like myself.

zodconvoy wrote:Personally, I find it funny that under the "offical is only" way of thinking, the Mickey Mouse Optimus Prime and Nike Shoeformer Megatron are okay but City Commander and the Unicron.com Animated Allspark aren't!

Why do you find that funny. It is quite basic. Both Nike and Disney worked with Takara to get permission, where the others did not.

M-State_Moc wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:What legitimacy do these products have for collectors?

Whatever legitimacy they choose to assign to them. I lean more towards brand loyalty myself, but I've found myself buying more and more third-party products lately.

I agree with you on this..I think that it is a personal liberty to assign legitimacy to a product for your collection, not some community online that should decide that for you..
Good call going back to the original thread questions .. Like Zodconvoy stated earlier:

zodconvoy wrote:Well this thread frayed quickly. We've had this arguement before. We all start talking about what we think is "legal" and "right" and that the two are rarely the same and no one is willing to budge an inch. At least this time it hasn't devolved into petty jibs and insults yet.

I agree we should just go back and answer these questions and move this discussion back to the original premise...

M-State_Moc wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:Do the concerns of/risks to Hasbro and their property rights have any effect on you or your purchases?

A bit.

The first third-party products I bought were the molded heads for G1 Ironhide and Ratchet. I would not have picked up those encores without that third-party product. So Takara made some money off me that they would not have otherwise made.

Since then, I've bought the four Quintesson figures, Spike and Sparkplug, and the Optimus and Magnus trailers. If Hasbro had released versions of those characters, I would have gone with those. Since they didn't, I went where I could find them.

No not really, I don't perceive a risk to their property rights as the products are mostly add ons or niche characters and figures..I can see people's reaction to mini Masterpieces.. but honestly I see no problems with them..they are in the same boat to me like the Mini Dinobots.

M-State_Moc wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:Where do you draw the line? Is there a line to be drawn?

Hasbro has lost no money from me due to these products. I bought the G3 Trailer set last week, and I will not buy the ROTF Prime. Did Hasbro lose money to Fansproject? Nope. I wasn't going to buy the Prime figure, anyway.

If I ever find myself thinking, "Boy, I would like that Hasbro product, but I need to save my money for that third-party toy," then I would need to draw a line. Because at that point, I'm essentially taking money from Hasbro and giving it to a third-party based on Hasbro's creations.

Other collectors may have crossed my particular line. That's a choice they have to make. But as Hasbro alluded to at BotCon this year, if they feel they are losing money to these third-parties, they are going to take action. And I'll have trouble holding that against them.

I have to agree, Hasbro has lost no money from me on these.. I bought the City commander armor, before I bought the Ultra Magnus VS Skywarp 2 pack.. I also Bought the TFCON POwered Commander Armor before I bought the Henkei Prime. So Hasbro got me, so did Takara.. before the armor.. I wasn't too interested in the Classics/Henkei figures.. good thing I decided to give it a whirl, now I am hooked on Universe 2.0 and Classics! It was all due to the Fansproject armor additions..

the City commander did it. after 23 Years.. We finally get a real and closely based Homage to the original Ultra Magnus!!



Plus, he's got a really BFG!!!

M-State_Moc wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:Lastly, as your news source, we want to know how these products should be addressed both as news and as relevant topics. Are third-party products something that betray the consumer relationship between Has/Tak, Transformers, and the fans? Are we as a news source obligated to defend that relationship in any regard?

I wonder if this site may blurr the lines between fandom and reporting, so it's a little difficult to answer. On the one hand, you don't want to do anything to tick off Hasbro. There's a lot of stuff on here that may be in a legal hot zone; I don't know. On the other hand, where else am I gonna find out if/when the Rodimus upgrade set is gonna come out?

exactly, I think that we should still report news here on seibertron.com..put the Official News up on top, and a separate "Bar" below the official News that lists ALL 3rd party news/Reporting.. So it satisfies those who want to show more of a support for Hasbro/Takara Tomy, and while still gets us news on the new releases in the 3rd party world..

But I don't think a separate forum for 3rd party merchandise is necessary, since most of the 3rd party stuff we see is used with actual figures as accessories and add-ons.

zodconvoy wrote:A lot of people keep thinking that but Fans Project simply hasn't said anything reguarding the Defender. What we were shown was the early concept art and since they aren't even planning to release Protector until 2010, Defender and the like may be up to 2 years away.

It's not cancelled, they just haven't started it yet so there's nothing to say.

Oh, I see. I guess we'll find out after Protector gets released. FP has done great work on the accessory products they've released so far so I'm very curious about their ability to design a full figure that may or may not be a triple changer. I'm also very interested in the Collector and Assaulter designs.

fenrir72 wrote:I repeat a simple answer to all the legal mumbo jumbo. Do what Jizai toys did, pay some royalties and confine it to a specific duration of time (like their Wheelie and Cyclonus product)if FP wants to release a full pledged Defender fig, Junkion etc. Other than that, good luck to them, but if properly packaged, they can call their products morphers or something, just not transformers. Color applications aside though (hopefully Hasbro/Takara hasn't copyrighted Springers green/yellow paint apps ).

I agree. Why take any risks, however low, and simply go through with a deal with the official producers? The Defender, Collector, and Warbot are all looking really good from the concept art but as full figure designs, they risk more attention from Hasbro and Takara. However, depending on the cost of royalties, it may be easier said than done.

It's too bad that Hasbro/Takara haven't implemented some sort of flexible partner development program that gives incentive to 3rd party producers to team up with them. At least, I'm not aware if such a program exists. I mean, at the end of the day, 3rd party producers are going to do what they do for as long as they can. Groups like FansProject have a lot to offer, their creations are not designed with the intent to try to take "a piece of the pie" that Hasbro and Takara have but however benign their work, they still violate IP laws as all 3rd party producers do. If they could create their own Transformers based/inspired designs without violating IP, then everyone's happy.

GetterDragun wrote:

zodconvoy wrote:Personally, I find it funny that under the "offical is only" way of thinking, the Mickey Mouse Optimus Prime and Nike Shoeformer Megatron are okay but City Commander and the Unicron.com Animated Allspark aren't!

Why do you find that funny. It is quite basic. Both Nike and Disney worked with Takara to get permission, where the others did not.

The idea isn't as simple as their licensed to make it therefore I can/must buy it. That's a self defeating arguement.
The Mickey Mouse and Nike TF's are ridiculous and have no real fit in a Transformers collection. Due to price (and asian market exclusivity) they are intended for adult collecters yet have no fit in a themed collection unless you go out of your way to collect licensed products and oddities. No collector sat down and thought "You know what Optimus and Megatron need to be? Shoes. That would be awesome!" Mickey wasn't a surprise more of a face palm when announced. Disney is well and truly the herpes of the industrial world. Work with other companies and eventually you get to Disney, work with Disney and something is sacrificed to the Mouse. I thought it would be a Park Exclusive but no.
Unlike those two products, people wanted an armor for Ultra Magnus to the point where when the Botcon 07 set was announced to be in the Classicsverse half the posts were hoping that an armor was one of the exclusives. When Hasbro announced that Optimus would never again have a trailer due cost issues every thread about it turned into a %100 rage thread. Transformers Animated was loved by most kids and (from a rough estimate based on posts) most adult collectors. Adults desire for an Allspark went unforfilled and universal desire from kids, adult fans and people who didn't like Animated but thought it would be awesome anyway still didn't make Hasbro release and Ark/Omega Supreme! These are actuall Transformers things that people actually want to buy that don't get made but here have a $120 set of Nikes & a $50 Mickey Mouse.
The Transformers concept and brand continually writes checks that Hasbro, for whatever reason, can't always cash. If a quality, fan made/third party item comes up and it's anywhere near as pure win as the FansProject stuff so far, they get my money.
City Commander cost as much at first release as the Nike Label Optimus Prime and Megatron together. Guess which one people wanted more.

Convotron wrote:I thought Hasbro had to gain rights for vehicle use? Isn't that why we haven't seen a Bumblebee with a VW Beetle alt mode for some time now?

For something like Alternators or if they call the alt by name, yes. If they don't specify the vehicle like the Audi ROTF Sideways is based off or the Lamborghini Univ. Sunstreaker is based off, I don't think they are.

Kibble wrote:

Convotron wrote:I thought Hasbro had to gain rights for vehicle use? Isn't that why we haven't seen a Bumblebee with a VW Beetle alt mode for some time now?

For something like Alternators or if they call the alt by name, yes. If they don't specify the vehicle like the Audi ROTF Sideways is based off or the Lamborghini Univ. Sunstreaker is based off, I don't think they are.

Oh, I see! Good to know.

zodconvoy wrote:The Transformers concept and brand continually writes checks that Hasbro, for whatever reason, can't always cash. If a quality, fan made/third party item comes up and it's anywhere near as pure win as the FansProject stuff so far, they get my money.
City Commander cost as much at first release as the Nike Label Optimus Prime and Megatron together. Guess which one people wanted more.

I totally agree. There are many concepts seen in the 3rd party market that Hasbro/Takara should have at least tried. I mean the City Commander/contemporary Ultra Magnus concept is obviously a success in the enthusiast market. However, as an accessory set, I can see it working well in the mainstream market. It definitely has the "wow" factor for kids and casual collectors. It can be marketed as essentially getting two toys out of one Classics OP/UM/NP. Besides, I thought "accessories" are often used by toy companies to get more money out of customers. "Look, kids! Your Optimus Prime or Ultra Magnus can now have a Super-Mode! Only for $29.99!".

I haven't read this entire thread but here's my completely honest opinion on the subject: I could care less if 3rd Party companies tread on Has/Tak's IP. Why? They give me as a collector what I want. I wanted a proper Classics Ulra Magnus, not just an albino Prime, Fansproject delivered. I wanted my Classics Prime to have a trailer, BTS and now FP have delivered. I wanted my Universe 2.0 Roadbuster to actually resemble G1 Roadbust, Natobot delivered. Is it legal? I don't know? I assume that if Has/Tak wanted to they would put a stop to it. I'll leave the legal aspect of all this up to them. I'm just going to enjoy the products.

zodconvoy wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:

zodconvoy wrote:Personally, I find it funny that under the "offical is only" way of thinking, the Mickey Mouse Optimus Prime and Nike Shoeformer Megatron are okay but City Commander and the Unicron.com Animated Allspark aren't!

Why do you find that funny. It is quite basic. Both Nike and Disney worked with Takara to get permission, where the others did not.

The idea isn't as simple as their licensed to make it therefore I can/must buy it. That's a self defeating arguement.
The Mickey Mouse and Nike TF's are ridiculous and have no real fit in a Transformers collection. Due to price (and asian market exclusivity) they are intended for adult collecters yet have no fit in a themed collection unless you go out of your way to collect licensed products and oddities. No collector sat down and thought "You know what Optimus and Megatron need to be? Shoes. That would be awesome!" Mickey wasn't a surprise more of a face palm when announced. Disney is well and truly the herpes of the industrial world. Work with other companies and eventually you get to Disney, work with Disney and something is sacrificed to the Mouse. I thought it would be a Park Exclusive but no.
Unlike those two products, people wanted an armor for Ultra Magnus to the point where when the Botcon 07 set was announced to be in the Classicsverse half the posts were hoping that an armor was one of the exclusives. When Hasbro announced that Optimus would never again have a trailer due cost issues every thread about it turned into a %100 rage thread. Transformers Animated was loved by most kids and (from a rough estimate based on posts) most adult collectors. Adults desire for an Allspark went unforfilled and universal desire from kids, adult fans and people who didn't like Animated but thought it would be awesome anyway still didn't make Hasbro release and Ark/Omega Supreme! These are actuall Transformers things that people actually want to buy that don't get made but here have a $120 set of Nikes & a $50 Mickey Mouse.
The Transformers concept and brand continually writes checks that Hasbro, for whatever reason, can't always cash. If a quality, fan made/third party item comes up and it's anywhere near as pure win as the FansProject stuff so far, they get my money.
City Commander cost as much at first release as the Nike Label Optimus Prime and Megatron together. Guess which one people wanted more.

That doesn't make sens at all, what does personal appeal or price of a figure have to do with it's authenticity? Optimash Prime is authentic, but it is a Mr. Potato head, and most of us thought it was cool. Plus Hasbro can't make everything. How can you say for a fact that people wanted to buy Animated Omega Supreme when most of Animated were shelf warmers? You can't say that if I want it Hasbro should make it, cause what a collector might like, might not appeal tot their target audience, which are kids.And based on this your saying that any third party can come in and make something that "fits in" and it would be accepted. And just because something is cool, still doesn't make it right, that would mean any company can make robots and say it fits in with a specific Transformers line then and collectors would accept it? I don't think so.

Put a little additional thought into this while on my evening jog (let's face it jogging is boring). How are 3rd Party sets for TF's any different than custom accessories for cars? I drive a Chevy Silverado with a number of custom accessories that are specifically made for my make and model that aren't licensed by Chevy. The way I see once the base figure is made custom add-ons are fair game, just as they are in other industries.

I think Some one's personal Preference trumps authenticity..

but then again Authenticity is like Beauty... it is in the eye of the beholder..

so I consider Fans Project's City Commander (ultra Magnus) trailer/Armor, as authentic..regardless of what manufacturer made it, or license is involved..


Honestly??

When I look at the City Commander Armor, I don't think of the licenses or authenticity..All i am looking at is pure awesomeness to the Max!!! It just looks good and fits the Henkei/Classics figures..


Hasbro never made one, and had no intentions to..

if Hasbro had their way we'd be left to the one on the right, but I am glad we got the city commander set..otherwise that Ultra Magnus figure would have just remained boring..

Personally, I don't really care what infringes on what as long as I deem it cool. In my personal opinion, whatever comes out that I deem awesome I'm gonna get, whether its licensed or not. I got the City Commander Upgrade, I'm getting the Superion add on, which I actually bought this horrible figure for, and plan on getting other KO's that I like.

Not official = KO, anyway you slice it. Skywarp-2 had that down. I don't care about intellectual properties or not, if I like it I get it, plain and simple.

If HAS/TAK really wanted this to stop, they could do it. But Hasbro doesn't even care to keep figures from being stolen from factories months before their releases, so why would they care about this?

Oh yeah, thats right, cause most of these "KO's" help sell some of their products. Don't believe me? Then why was Ultra Magnus two packed with Skywarp for the Classics 1.0 line and warmed shelves? Why was Universe now ROTF Superion being sold at Family Dollars on clearance.

Get what you like, don't let anyone tell you whats you should and should not have.

Not official does not equal 'knock-off'.

We're arguing semantics here, but this is why semantics matter.

There are knock-offs...otherwise known as reproductions of existing product, almost always of inferior quality in order to justify a lower cost.

Then there are bootlegs, which may or may not be reproductions of existing product and while they are often of inferior quality, at times they are of standard acceptable quality. The oversized Rollers for MP Convoy are an example of this.

Then there is Third Party merchandise which is usually of a make and mold that is unique. Third Party merchandise may or may not violate intellectual property rights, but it is unique product that is not constructed off of existing product or materials. City Commander is an example here.

Semantics don't matter to me, if it is a 3rd party product that is traded on as either an upgrade, Bootleg, Knockoff.. it is not officially licensed products..

you could argue the legal sides of the whole thing, (which is a more severe transgression, and which is not a transgression, etc..) but we all know this stuff is for transformers..

so semantics aside..

there is a giant umbrella that all the three categories fit under.."3rd party products" which is a nice way of saying "Not Official Merchandise"

or "unlicensed"


Hmmm...3rd party = "undocumented" (NO OFFICIAL HASBRO LICENSE)

He he he... "undocumented Transformers" = "illegal Aliens"..

Counterpunch wrote:Then there is Third Party merchandise which is usually of a make and mold that is unique. Third Party merchandise may or may not violate intellectual property rights, but it is unique product that is not constructed off of existing product or materials. City Commander is an example here.

You are grouping licensed third party items with unlicensed third party items and this makes your statement inaccurate. Some Third Party companies receive the right to make Transformer products from Hasbro or Takara. Other Third Party companies do not and are thus unlicensed products. Therefore, third party categories would be broken into two groups.

GetterDragun wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:Then there is Third Party merchandise which is usually of a make and mold that is unique. Third Party merchandise may or may not violate intellectual property rights, but it is unique product that is not constructed off of existing product or materials. City Commander is an example here.

You are grouping licensed third party items with unlicensed third party items and this makes your statement inaccurate. Some Third Party companies receive the right to make Transformer products from Hasbro or Takara. Other Third Party companies do not and are thus unlicensed products. Therefore, third party categories would be broken into two groups.

Counterpunch wrote:Third Party merchandise may or may not violate intellectual property rights

It does not make my statement inaccurate. All you're doing is pressing a point which is not relevant to the reason my response was given.

For that matter, I could counter your need to differentiate by stating that once the product is licensed by Hasbro, it isn't really a 3rd party product because the point of the licensing agreement/review is to ensure that the product conforms to standards and/or practices that Hasbro would have otherwise implemented for the product. Production by proxy with the intellectual property matter remaining with Hasbro, the intellectual property for the merchandise design remaining with the 3rd party...

eh...

the point is, the fact that I did not nor felt not the need to go into further specifics regarding the licensing or failure to license 3rd party merchandise does not disqualify my statement.

I apologize for going a bit off track with what I'm about to ask but where do customizers fit into the 3rd party realm, if at all? Specifically those who customize Transformers and sell them?

Customizers who sell their work are notably different than other "unofficial" producers by usually being producers of individual products rather than mass productions. Custom work can involve a paint job or more such as also involving modifying the toy, basically kitbashing, or installing LEDs for dramatic effect.

Are custom products illegal just like any other unofficial product? After all, the use of a Transformer toy is essential to their work and often the paint themes homage/take from existing paint schemes of owned characters like a "Revenge of the Fallen Leader Optimus Prime with G1 paint scheme". Or are they in a grey area because they are normally "one off" creations?

Convotron wrote:I apologize for going a bit off track with what I'm about to ask but where do customizers fit into the 3rd party realm, if at all? Specifically those who customize Transformers and sell them?

I would say not at all. I suppose it's possible if they were doing it in commercially in mass quantities and painting new insignia logos they could get hit with something maybe, but Hasbro might be just as happy having sold the mass quantity already. But the actual one off customs…no legal concerns whatsoever.