The Energon Pub

AcademyofDrX wrote:What initiated the rant was, and I'm paraphrasing, "Hasbro messed up with Rodimus because they can't sell him to kids." There's an implicit framing that I see all the time, and that people treat as self-evident: Transformers Generations are toys for children that adults can buy too. I'm saying that's backwards. Adults are a target market for toys, and everything about the Generations toyline in particular backs that up:

These toys are made for adults, but kids can buy them too.

My kid is eight. He won't be "buying" Rodimus Prime, but he'll be getting him for Christmas.

So... My Rodimus was finally delivered last night. As expected, yes the Trailer does not stay completely shut, but there are fixes for that. The areas that clip behind the legs do not stay tabbed in either, it seems like the wheel sections that fold into the legs are just slightly too big for the space they were intended to fold into/

The toy itself was definitely a labor of love for someone, and fans of the character Rodimus will not be disappointed, this is probably the best Rodimus Prime toy ever made (although I've never seen the MP up close, so I may be wrong).

I was a bit disappointed however in some other areas. Many reviews boasted using the words "solid" and "hefty" when describing the main body component. Now of course I don't have a postal scale (I need to get one), but he doesn't feel any heavier to me than any other voyager toy (comparing him to ER Prime)

I also want to see a weight comparison between all 3 CC (Jetfire, Skylynx and Rodimus). I still believe Rodimus is the lightest overall (trailer included), but I may be wrong.

Lastly, just to add a bit more of real world experience- whenever I get a new TF, I am always a bit hesitant at first, for fear of breaking it, until I get familiar with it's transformation. Now because I'm old and senile, anything with a new Transformation, beyond a deluxe, I'll use the instructions for, because that's just how I am. Needless to say, there were still several times, where I was afraid it was going to break during Transformation, thankfully it did not. My son and I were comparing it with ER Prime last night while messing around with the toys. He is pretty smart though, he never uses instructions. However I urged him to do so , as Rodimus has some concepts and engineering not used in any other TF he has handled before. Literally, after messing with it for less than a couple of minutes, he gave up and handed it back to me. Not because it was too complicated, but because he didn't want to break it. He's never given up like that before.

It is a well developed toy no doubt, and yes I paid full price. Now owning it, I can definitely say it isn't worth $80 to me, whereas the other two CC were. If I could know the future, and know I could get this for $50 or less at discount I would. But unfortunately I don't, so I got it when I could. The airlock, oddly enough was the selling point for me, being able to add it to the overall *city* . If rumors hold true and future CC and TC seem to be deviating more and more from the precedent that was initially set, then I see little to no need to purchase them moving forward.

AcademyofDrX wrote:What initiated the rant was, and I'm paraphrasing, "Hasbro messed up with Rodimus because they can't sell him to kids." There's an implicit framing that I see all the time, and that people treat as self-evident: Transformers Generations are toys for children that adults can buy too. I'm saying that's backwards. Adults are a target market for toys, and everything about the Generations toyline in particular backs that up:

These toys are made for adults, but kids can buy them too.

You just said only 30% of TF toys are bought by older fans, so how are they the primary audience?

There is nothing backing your claim that the primary audience is adults. Not the commercials, nor the investor reports.
You said so yourself.

This back and forth is nonsense.

They are kids toys, dont be ashamed for liking them too. I'm not.

I'm not ashamed, but I think you're lying to yourself. The 30% quote was brand-wide, not product-specific. I'm making a claim about Generations specifically.

I don't want to keep fighting, I'm happy to drop it, but "you don't have first-hand authoritative evidence" is not proof I'm wrong and doesn't challenge any of the claims I made about product design.

william-james88 wrote:

AcademyofDrX wrote:What initiated the rant was, and I'm paraphrasing, "Hasbro messed up with Rodimus because they can't sell him to kids." There's an implicit framing that I see all the time, and that people treat as self-evident: Transformers Generations are toys for children that adults can buy too. I'm saying that's backwards. Adults are a target market for toys, and everything about the Generations toyline in particular backs that up:

These toys are made for adults, but kids can buy them too.

You just said only 30% of TF toys are bought by older fans, so how are they the primary audience?

There is nothing backing your claim that the primary audience is adults. Not the commercials, nor the investor reports.
You said so yourself.

This back and forth is nonsense.

They are kids toys, dont be ashamed for liking them too. I'm not.

Why not both? Why not just toys instead of kids toys or grown-up toys. Hasbro wants to have their cake and eat it too so they design a line that should appeal to both. I think to say they were obviously designed for only 1 of the 2 age groups seems silly to me. If anything they were obviously designed with both in mind. Even the expensive items will appeal to some kids, while the simplest of cyberverse designs (or battle masters, micro masters etc.) will appeal to some adults.

TF-fan kev777 wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

AcademyofDrX wrote:What initiated the rant was, and I'm paraphrasing, "Hasbro messed up with Rodimus because they can't sell him to kids." There's an implicit framing that I see all the time, and that people treat as self-evident: Transformers Generations are toys for children that adults can buy too. I'm saying that's backwards. Adults are a target market for toys, and everything about the Generations toyline in particular backs that up:

These toys are made for adults, but kids can buy them too.

You just said only 30% of TF toys are bought by older fans, so how are they the primary audience?

There is nothing backing your claim that the primary audience is adults. Not the commercials, nor the investor reports.
You said so yourself.

This back and forth is nonsense.

They are kids toys, dont be ashamed for liking them too. I'm not.

Why not both? Why not just toys instead of kids toys or grown-up toys. Hasbro wants to have their cake and eat it too so they design a line that should appeal to both. I think to say they were obviously designed for only 1 of the 2 age groups seems silly to me. If anything they were obviously designed with both in mind. Even the expensive items will appeal to some kids, while the simplest of cyberverse designs (or battle masters, micro masters etc.) will appeal to some adults.

That's a fair point, and I don't want to be exclusionary. Many toys are intended to be sold for multiple demographics. Some excel at that, like Lego Star Wars, for example.

There are a couple reasons why I think this is a debate worth having. For one thing, the argument comes up all the time in the discourse, that "these are for kids" has this rhetorical and ideological power that I don't think it deserves. The other thing is that when you look at (or collect, or think about) multiple product lines, it's easier to identify underlying design principles in reference to the demographics.

A corollary to "Generations is designed for adults but kids are welcome" is "Cyberverse was designed for kids but adults are welcome." Price points, complexity, and play features are very different between those two lines, and one plausible reason for that is a perceived intended audience.

Additionally, these beliefs (and arguably, misconceptions) color the way people engage with the hobby, with the audience, with the medium. And this isn't limited to toys! There's a famous anecdote where a cartoonist pitched his editor on a comic series, only to be shot down immediately. From memory, the line was like, "we did don't publish comics for 8 year olds but 48 year olds." That's a different industry, but it's a very similar market.

I just got my hands on Kingdom Red Alert and he's very good, but he's not as much as improvement over the Siege toy as I was expecting. That's less a criticism of the Kingdom version, and more a reflection of how solid the Siege toy is and how well it holds up.

The reds on Kingdom are much brighter. The missile isn't red plastic, but white painted red. There's also much more red, as known, from the forearms and thighs. I think the thighs are a bit much, especially since they deviate from the cartoon, but I don't think I'm going to try to swap since I would need to remove the pins in the knees. The whites are also brighter, do the thighs would still not be a perfect match.

YMMV, but this should be seen as an optional upgrade. My North Star is the cartoon, so the alt mode and text changes alone justify the change. But it really is just the same toy with very minor updates.

Edit, very minor criticism: I like the grey shins and feet, but it doesn't match the black hands and waist, so it doesn't look as clean as I would like. I get why so much is different, but it's not a unified set of differences, probably for gang molding reasons. Not a reason not to get it, just another way I'd change it to be perfect.

AcademyofDrX wrote:A corollary to "Generations is designed for adults but kids are welcome" is "Cyberverse was designed for kids but adults are welcome." Price points, complexity, and play features are very different between those two lines, and one plausible reason for that is a perceived intended audience.

Gnerations line is designed for all. The designs are definitely made to also lure in all that older fans' money, for sure. But the line internally at Hasbro and every distribution aspect for the mainline still operates under the main demographic being kids and parents. These aren't MP toys, eight year olds can transform them easily. They are play tested by kids at Hasbro. Kids appear in the commercials which are broadcasted on kids channels. And they are placed next to the other kids toys at the store. Hasbro (and we) need this line to also appeal to kids and parents so that we can have enough demand and sales to keep economies of scale so that we in turns do not pay more and don't have to hunt down for them only through niche collectible stores.
Plus, if the generations line was just for adults then so many of the previous choices would not have been made. The only reason Hasbro allowed headmasters in Titans return was because there would also be the option of buying extra heads if kids lose the ones that came with the main toy. The idea of having a leader class Optimus Prime for every line is so that parents have that big ticket Optimus item to buy for kids each year. And the fact that we had gimmicks in the entire WFC trilogy (weaponiserz, fossilizers, ect) is all indicative of a kids toyline. If it was mainly for fans, there would be no need of those extra gimmicks. They even said that the core class line was for parents who wanted affordable options if they had to pick up a toy of a classic character.

I have to report the news and facts, and at every turn Hasbro confirms that they are targetting kids just as much as us for this line (I mean, they spent millions on ads and ad space to reach kids). So I am reporting that in turn. I do believe though that within the line some items are more for kids (core class) while the high ticket items are more for fans who have the means. I just see no reason to say the generations line is mainly for adult collectors. It's for everyone who likes Transformers.
And funny enough, the fact that some fans are so adamant to saying this is a line mainly for them (even in the light of everything else I stated) speaks to how well Hasbro is doing with this line and getting money form all sides.

I think I agree with pretty much all of that, so I'm sorry if I was coming off too argumentative or dismissive. I very much do not want to seem like I'm gatekeeping against kids or trying to claim space from them, I just wonder if we sometimes inflate their centrality from time to time.

william-james88 wrote: Kids appear in the commercials which are broadcasted on kids channels.

I'm not questioning this, but I am a little surprised. Granted I haven't had standard cable in well over a decade, I wasn't aware they even made toy commercials anymore, like they did in the 80's-ealy 00's.

I mean I watch a lot of Youtube kids shows, with ads, but never seen a modern TF commercial.

*edit*
until now....

I found this one sad little commercial. Commercials used to be so awesome...oh well.

Conveniently, the upgrade kit I ordered for Scorponok arrived the day after my wave 3 pre-orders did, and I'm pretty happy with tge result. The thigh extenders add about an inch or so to Scorponok's height, he's now taller than Blackarachnia and Cheetor, and his overall look is very much improved. As I've said before though, these thigh extenders do mess up both tge transformation and the scorpion mode, I knew this going in, so I'll probably take the extenders off whenever I transform him.

AcademyofDrX wrote:I think I agree with pretty much all of that, so I'm sorry if I was coming off too argumentative or dismissive. I very much do not want to seem like I'm gatekeeping against kids or trying to claim space from them, I just wonder if we sometimes inflate their centrality from time to time.

No worries. I in turn don't want to over inflate us. Might speak more of me though

Deep down, I just don't want any of us to be exclusionary of anyone. And I know you're not so it's all good. Was a fun chat

Also just so you know that I am not dismissive of your arguments, I do remember where this idea came from. It's the idea of the high ticket items and the argument of how much them being sold to families and kids may come into play with restrictions. I honestly do not have an answer for that. I don't know the facts in regards to those higher ticket items, I liked your line of questioning.

o.supreme wrote:
I found this one sad little commercial. Commercials used to be so awesome...oh well.

I know, they did make commercials for all the lines though, here are some more:

I really do find the topic of the "primary target consumer group" interesting.
And as far as I can tell, if the dialogue that's been happening is an "argument", well, it's one of the best kind-- people sharing their thoughts with some depth and reasoning rather than charged and driven by emotion.

Here's a thought I've had-- No matter when that stat of "30% collector" came out, HOW did Hastak even come up with that? Seems to me that it would be based on a survey or possible multiple surveys. However, they were obviously limited and probably to the point of very isolated.
Over the last nearly two years, how would Hastak ever know that the $1,759+ I've spent all belongs in the "bought-by-a-collector" portion of the total consumer group?

Sowndwave76 wrote:I really do find the topic of the "primary target consumer group" interesting.
And as far as I can tell, if the dialogue that's been happening is an "argument", well, it's one of the best kind-- people sharing their thoughts with some depth and reasoning rather than charged and driven by emotion.

Here's a thought I've had-- No matter when that stat of "30% collector" came out, HOW did Hastak even come up with that? Seems to me that it would be based on a survey or possible multiple surveys. However, they were obviously limited and probably to the point of very isolated.
Over the last nearly two years, how would Hastak ever know that the $1,759+ I've spent all belongs in the "bought-by-a-collector" portion of the total consumer group?

I really don't know. However, just to be clear the stat said 30% are older fans and older fans was said to be 10 years old and more. So it's a very large demographic. But then again, past 10 years old I think the majority of kids are more into digital entertainment than anything else and that's why Hasbro does their cut off.
Still, no clue how the stat was figured out.

Can't say I understand why certain fans get hung up about that stat and wanting it to bigger.

Personally I would want that stat to be lower. Not in the terms of adult collectors being less, but with more kids buying the product. After all they will be the fans of the future.

Finally!, BBTS has gotten Rodimus Prime in, and I have shipped him along with Ratrap and a couple of Micromaster sets.

Hopefully it gets here quickly. The last shipment is still stuck in customs processing since last week.

Emerje wrote:

-Kanrabat- wrote:No one would EVER write "for adult collectors" on the box of a product unless it's a PORN thing. The most is to set a minimum age like Hasbro, Takara, and all 3P companies do.

That's exactly how Mattel labels all of their collectibles.




Emerje

I feel like He-Man / She-Ra (especially retro) should be excluded from any "Made for Kids vs Collectors" discussion because kids do not care about MotU. Mattel's tried time and time again and it just has not worked. Speaking as a 2000s kid: I knew of He-Man and I knew of his "I have the power" quote... but TMNT was Mattel's big ticket item. I'd argue that MotU is less successful to kids than GI-Joe... and that's saying something

Voltron's one that I'm not sure about however. As a kid I vaguely knew of Voltron through references but I always thought they were weird Megazords (was there even a Voltron iteration in the 2000s?)

So I got my Rodimus Prime.

I transformed the robot, which was a considerably difficult job - not because it's complex, but getting the right angle on his chest to get it to clip in was...hard. I did it, of course, and I have the slight issue with the backpack not really wanting to clip into the windshield, but there's workarounds for that.

Once he's a robot, his presentation is glorious. It's everything I thought it would be. But - I feel like I need to have two of them because of how figity it is. I haven't gotten to the trailer yet, but I think people's problems may be stemming from how it's secured in the box.

Unless it's hidden in the trailer, my copy didn't come with a Matrix of Leadership.

sol magnus wrote:I haven't gotten to the trailer yet, but I think people's problems may be stemming from how it's secured in the box.

The tiedowns are definitely the main culprit. The trailer does seem to recover pretty quick.

sol magnus wrote:Unless it's hidden in the trailer, my copy didn't come with a Matrix of Leadership.

Mine came in his chest.

I must say for both Rodimus and the Ark, it was refreshing to get them in alt mode and have to transform them to bot to seem them for the first time.

Picked up Wingfinger today, it looks bad in teh box..when opened up it has the extra bits and for a split second it makes you think I canmake it look better with the pieces included...nope.

The bat like sculpt on his pole (aka torso??) is nice but it needed something to bulk it out. I'ts pretty great for posing but really not sodl on its robot mode as is. I mainly picked him up for combining but I might like transmutate waay too much to ever leave them in a combined mode. Waiting on the third fossil guy from Hasbro Pulse.

Sabrblade wrote:

Nuclearxpotato wrote:but TMNT was Mattel's big ticket item.

TMNT is Playmates, not Mattel.

For some reason I thought TMNT was owned by Mattel in the past. I guess that'd make Hotwheels Mattel's hot ticket boy item.

Nuclearxpotato wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:For some reason I thought TMNT was owned by Mattel in the past. I guess that'd make Hotwheels Mattel's hot ticket boy item.

As far as something that has been consistent for decades yes. But MOTU in it's heyday was Mattel's premier toyline marketed for boys.