Yeah, after his inexplicable cameo in The Headmasters, Ironhide again appeared alive in two e-HOBBY mini-comics created for a couple of Masterpiece toys (the black version of MP-1 Convoy and the ghost version of MP-3 Starscream), both of which were set right after G2. That was the first indicator that we were sorely missing some new story that explained how Ironhide (and Ratchet) came back to life. And it's quite an oversight that it's still yet to be told.Gauntlet101010 wrote:Right, Ratchet should be dead too. I need to keep track of when they toy comes out, actually. They never explained that plot hole? Seems like it should be easy enough. And right up that mini comic's alley. Oh well.
Yeah, and it even got followed up with the first Metrowars comic being set around the same time, with Super Convoy making a one-panel appearance:Gauntlet101010 wrote:Is Nucleon Quest Convoy canon? I guess you're bringing it up so it must be.
I'm guessing it's more something that's done simply at the discretion of the writer, patching up whatever plot holes they can think of and wish to fix. But not so much these days, what with the mangas for Legends, Unite Warriors, and Generations Selects having all since ended some years ago.Gauntlet101010 wrote:Do they have an organized list or is it all done on the fly with them desperately trying to fix plot holes when they can?
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
The RobotMasters comics are the primary fiction. These OVAs are just heavily abridged samples of the main story that adapt bits and pieces of it, but otherwise don't provide the full picture. They're basically advertisements that say "If you liked these, check out the comics for the real story!"Gauntlet101010 wrote:Right away I wonder at how canon this is. After all, everyone is meeting everyone else.
Likely because it's not Shigeru Chiba voicing him. None of the characters' original voice actors returned for these two OVA shorts.Gauntlet101010 wrote:Beast Megatron isn't acting like a loony. I wonder why he's so sane, knowing that sanity is a trait found in our version of the character.
The OVAs were also likely not written by anyone that familiar with the original shows that these characters came from or their respective lore. The comics were more reverent in that regard.Gauntlet101010 wrote:It's cool to see Primal interact with two other Primes, even if it's in terrible quality CGI. The second episode has an ok battle sequence. With the whole tornado thing going on I wonder why Lio Convoy didn't use his Lio Typhoon attack. Guess they forgot all about it? That'd track...
Yeah, that didn't happen so quickly in the comics.Gauntlet101010 wrote:Reverse Convoy immediately discards his disguise. But the episode is only 6 minutes long, what can you do? It's a cool concept. I know he comes back in a Legends manga with that same feature. Here he just comes off as the world's worst spy, lol.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Ah, but Beast Machines wasn't released in Japan until late 2004 to early 2005 (where it was renamed "Beast Wars Returns"), so its Japanese release was contemporary to RobotMasters.Gauntlet101010 wrote:It's still somewhat disappointing that they didn't even try to get Beast Megatron's mannerism's down.
Well, sort of disappointing. On my end he acts like the Megatron I'm familiar with so it's better for me. But for the intended audience, even if it's not the original VA, it had to fall flat. I mean, this is the first time we're seeing our old friend in ages. Seems like a missed opportunity. In this 6 minute toy advert.
Oh, the RobotMasters manga is short. The Wiki has all of it archived on one page (we just need to finish the translation).Gauntlet101010 wrote:Maybe at some point I'll check out the manga, but the shows are already quite daunting. I hear the current comic is really great. And there are bits of the old Marvel run I ought to check out, really. But I can't catch up on everything after all.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:Oh! I forgot to ask before. What did you think of the retcon/revelation that Angolmois Energy is actually Unicron's energy, especially in light of BWII consistently and repeatedly stating that it's the sacred life energy of planet Gaia/Earth?
Gauntlet101010 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Oh! I forgot to ask before. What did you think of the retcon/revelation that Angolmois Energy is actually Unicron's energy, especially in light of BWII consistently and repeatedly stating that it's the sacred life energy of planet Gaia/Earth?
So, I've always known this twist. Even if I haven't watched the shows I have read some articles on the wiki on some of the characters involved. But I haven't watched any of the episodes and I try to experience them as fresh as I can.
So in a word...
Nonsensical. Like, completely nonsensical.
As it turns out, all this was explained in the mid-2000s by, of all things, Kiss Players.Gauntlet101010 wrote:I guess, if I forget the actual events of the animated movie and just sort of image the Autobots sealing away Unicron into the Earth a million years ago I can kinda see how it could happen. Everyone just forgets that it wasn't naturally a part of the planet originally, but something that became so. THEN ... sure. Okay, guys. Just like how I have to image the Destrons came from planet Dinosaur instead of Cybertron or that Cybertron and Vector Sigma both weren't blown up good in a poorly thought out plot twist.
But we do know what happened to Unicron. Roddy blew him up good. I remember reading that they were collecting energy ages ago and it was Unicron and I thought it was the energy dispersed at the end of TFTM, but no. No it just, somehow, wound up all on Earth. Actually, while we're on discontinuity, this kinda has Marvel influence regarding Unicron, albeit probably unintentionally. Movie Unicron was purely mechanical. Marvel was the demigod.
It wouldn't be too hard to bridge this story gap. You need just one story where Unicron's head winds up on Earth and partially revives set in 2010 or Headmasters. As it stands, however, this would still be a retcon and the entire story rests on half remembered memories of G1 and the hope nobody watches their VHSs or Laserdisks of TFTM. And it's a shame because I don't think it needed to be like that. You just need even one line where someone goes "a mad decepticon tried to revive Unicron on Gaia a long time ago and he's been a part of the planet ever since then' or something. Maybe with a still of some likely candidate. Scourge and Cyclonus post-Headmasters maybe? And them being stopped by the Headmasters? But that didn't happen. Because they didn't know their lore deeply enough. Or maybe they didn't want to overwhelm kids who wouldn't know or care about it. The Decepticon homeworld being eaten is a stronger motivation for Magmatron than just the memory of Unicon himself even if it makes no damned sense.
Of course, if I were watching this at the time, I think I'd be happy just to have him back. Right now we're at a time where G1 is just starting to rest it's iron-tight grip on the franchise. I have a giant Unicron right beside me. Back then there wasn't even one single Unicron toy. They cancelled BW Neo's and we all were robbed. So I'd probably yadda yadda it. "Rodimus blew up Unicron, he's a head floating around in space - yadda yadda yadda - and his energy wound up in planet Earth - enjoy your surprise reveal!"
Well, recall that Vector Sigma miraculously survived the explosion, despite having not only been near the center of the planet but also where the bombs were originally placed. Maybe the organic core survived too. After all, a good chunk of the rest of the planet was still intact (albeit heavily damaged) following the explosion.Gauntlet101010 wrote:Actually, thinking of how the Unite Warriors cast rebuilt Cybertron, how could they possibly reconcile that with Beast Machines and it's organic core? Or maybe the Autobots found a nearby dead world and used that as a base to rebuild Cybertron? It was rather cored...maybe they found some small moon and plopped it in the center like a tootsie pop and build around it? It being blown up is such a problem. Any random Quintesson can bring back Ironhide or Ratchet, but rebuilding a planet is a **** task!
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Now that you got me thinking about all this, with the retroactive context of the later retcons made by the likes of Kiss Players, Legends, Unite Warriors, and Generations Selects, maybe Primus had a hand in the planet's repair, since he is Vector Sigma in this continuity.Gauntlet101010 wrote:But, I mean, the organic core is at the core. The very centre of the planet. And you can literally see through the centre of the planet now. I guess I can see VS surviving. Galvatron survived, so why not?
I guess going into that is beyond the small bit of continuity that manga can give for a show not even released originally. I just have to assume that the Cybertrons used another planet to fill in the gap. There's just no other explanation I can see.
We get a look at it in an episode of BWII, and it seemed pretty normal. Well, save for the fact that there were ruins of a long-gone civilization on it (something the Generations Selects manga also filled in, saying that after humanity abandoned Earth, they relocated to Mars for a while before venturing out further into the space).Gauntlet101010 wrote:They did say they restored Mars, but I don't think we ever see how well they restored it. I sort of picture it like how Green Lantern Kyle Rayner rebuilt Pluto that one time. Just gather a bunch of rocks, put them together, and call it done. It's probably nothing like OG Mars. Just like Cybertron can't be anything like OG Cybertron.
Yeah, Kiss Players was actually finally translated in full for the first time back in 2022 by Karyuudo Fansubs, the same group who has fansubbed Car Robots, Legends of the Microns, BWII, Neo, the Beast Wars movies, Zone, and Scramble City. Both the radio drama and all the related manga, including the even-more-forgotten manga series Teletraan 15 Go! Go!, which was released concurrently to Kiss Players and made by the same creator.Gauntlet101010 wrote:Kiss Players. The forgotten continuity. Down the memory hole! Actually I have the Sparkbots in my closet at my parent's house. Nice to know they dedicated an entire story to fill in that huge plot hole. I remember reading a bit about that, but JG1 gets really really snarled.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Thankfully, all of the first-year radio episodes were released on CD (and have been fansubbed, too). It's just those second-year ones that never got put on CD, and whose storyline can now only be experienced through the manga adaptation (which is nice in that it provides visual illustrations where the radio eps were audio-only, but they manga adaptation is still a much more condensed version of the story skimming over some of the details). Japanese summaries of the the missing radio eps do also exist online, but a summary isn't the same as a first-hand experience.Gauntlet101010 wrote:It's too bad those Kiss Players dramas were utterly lost. That does seem surprising. I guess even Transformers drops the ball sometimes.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
The irony being that they were trying to simplify and make things more consistent.Gauntlet101010 wrote:Wow. They really overcomplicated it, didn't they?
I guess, but, even before this elaborate backstory was crafted and both Primacron's Oracle assistant and Primus were added to the mix, fans still thought that the Vector Sigma of the G1 cartoon, the Vector Sigma of Beast Wars Neo, and the evolved Vector Sigma Oracle from Beast Machines were all the same Vector Sigma in different time periods.Gauntlet101010 wrote:I feel like tying everything together kind of makes the universe just a bit smaller. Not everything should be tied to just one person or thing. It shrinks the universe.
As it turns out, there actually was a conclusion given to the Zodiac pieces in the Generations Selects manga. After the conclusion of the Legends manga, the Selects manga revealed that the Powered Masters had gathered all of the Zodiac fragments together by the year 2050. When all of the fragments were brought together, they merged together into (to the utter surprise of the Powered Masters) a Silver Matrix. This Silver Matrix was then promptly stolen by someone who had predicted this merger phenomenon (as this someone had been able to see into the future). This person then took the Silver Matrix with them into a portal, completely disappearing from this universe into another. So the Zodiac fragments were gone and taken away, no longer in this universe.Gauntlet101010 wrote:So what happened to the Zodiac by the end of Neo? I feel like bringing such a powerful thing into the mythos was a mistake. It's way too extra. Even the Matrix can be extra, but it's extra in a way Unicron can't match.
Well, like I said, I've now walked back on the idea of Zodiac fixing the planet because it was repaired at a time before the Transformers on Cybertron first learn about the existence of Zodiac.Gauntlet101010 wrote:I think I can see why you want Cybertron to be remade whole using Zodiac now. Because, if it was roboticized by the Quints, then that keeps the spirit of the idea intact. But, if I look at the destruction ... I dunno. The actual center of the planet is obliterated and, while I can see Galvatron and Vector Sigma surviving, I have a much harder time buying magical goop doing the same.
Maybe, but didn't look like there were any other inhabitants on Athenia besides the Autobots themselves by the time of The Headmasters. So they wouldn't be upending any existing civilization were that they case.Gauntlet101010 wrote:I .... guess I can buy The Autobots using Athenia since they have a presence there. Although it feels very un-Autobotty to take a lush world to coat in metal.
Legends.Gauntlet101010 wrote:I guess I can't argue that Primus created the organic goo if it's right there in Kiss Players.
The Key could turn things metal in the G1 cartoon as well.Gauntlet101010 wrote:Even though he's also Vector Sigma and the key to Vector Sigma is shown to negate organic life in Beast Machines.
Yeah, the original creators of all these different cartoons were definitely doing their own things at the time (heck, the creators of Beast Machines even openly admitted that they weren't allowed to watch Beast Wars, the very show that they were making a direct sequel to). All of this organizing of the different pieces and smoothing things out had to be done retroactively by the various writers employed by TakaraTomy from the 2000s onward. Most notably, Hirofumi Ichikawa, Naoto Tsushima, Yuki Ohshima, Andrew Hall, and Hayato Sakamoto. Those five have done the most legwork.Gauntlet101010 wrote:I don't think they thought this through. I think they only thought as far as "life god" to counter Unicron's "death god" status.
Yeah, the soil inside Beast Machines Cybertron is one of the reasons I gave another look to your suggestion of their having integrated another planet into Cybertron. A world like Athenia could have provided that soil quite easily.Gauntlet101010 wrote:However, there's a way to simplify matters even more out of this mess. If Primus is the origin of the magic green goop and not the planet's origin's as a living world that means we don't necessarily need a world for the Autobots to build around. They could just build a fully artificial world, Death Star style, and Primus could supply the organic core later. It doesn't even have to be immediately after he meets the KP; it could have been a bit afterwards when the planet gets remade he could think to himself "well, I think I may start making some magic goop now that I have myself a shiny new planet". Or something. Although ... where'd the soil come from? Maybe from the chunk of Cybertron still left? Maybe the Autobots used some rocks as support structures?
Like I said, we now know that that Key was Quintessian in origin.Gauntlet101010 wrote:Even though the Key to Vector Sigma nullifies organic life. I dunno, I guess he can do two things.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
I guess, but, even before this elaborate backstory was crafted and both Primacron's Oracle assistant and Primus were added to the mix, fans still thought that the Vector Sigma of the G1 cartoon, the Vector Sigma of Beast Wars Neo, and the evolved Vector Sigma Oracle from Beast Machines were all the same Vector Sigma in different time periods.
The irony being that they were trying to simplify and make things more consistent.
Energon, I guess? The Autobots didn't seem very lacking in power generation resources what with their having not one but two massive city-sized headquarters by the time of The Headmasters, one on Earth and one on Athenia.Gauntlet101010 wrote:I don't suppose they ever explained what would power this new Cybertron? Given that was such a plot point in Seasons 1-2.
Don't forget, that was all Scorponok's call, alone. Both Rodimus and Galvatron wanted to save Cybertron, but Scorponok made the call to take it out of the equation so he could harvest plasma energy from the planet's explosion, all because he was an outside party who had no ties to or sentimental affection for Cybertron. To him, it was just another rock in space.Gauntlet101010 wrote:Maybe that new element Galvy and Roddy were so jazzed about in Headmasters? As far as I'm aware the only reason the Destrons need energy is to power some specific thing and not Cybertron itself anymore. Although they only describe it as a super hard metal (I dunno why Adamantium would require the destruction of your home planet, guys, seems like an overreaction).
While true about the Legends manga, both the Unite Warriors and Generations Selects manga were all released exclusively online in PDFs. Same with many chapters of Legends being online releases.Gauntlet101010 wrote:I think a big problem is the format and the exact narrative. It's a story told in these dense toy pack-in comics that reference so MANY other things.
Heh, yeah. It is... a lot.Gauntlet101010 wrote:And then they (looks at the wiki) bring in alternate realities into the mix ... ? Was that truly necessary to resolve the Primus / Quintesson stuff? They probably also want to tell an interesting story involving guys like Optimus Primal and other desperate characters, but now there's an entire previous universe and a bunch of alternate realities ... just to give a backstory to Vector Sigma? Ooof. I saw that it was all machinations by Lucky Draw Primus (that he stole the Silver Matrix / Zodiac). I guess if Primus and Unicron are Yin and Yang Unicron got all the sanity in the balance, lol.
Indeed there is. The wiki has its own in-house archive on MEGA for all kinds of Japanese TF printed media. Though, Legends has yet to be translated in full, with only a modest handful of chapters having actually been completed (and some by a guy whose translation choices have been... a bit questionable). Like you said, it's all rather dense (and the many skeevy elements in several chapters sure don't help).Gauntlet101010 wrote:Was there a comprehensive site collecting translated versions of the Legends comics?
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
I'm just gonna nip this one in the bud, right here, since it's been spread around through the grapevine for decades. His bat mode and dragon mode have their own unique way of speaking, but only those two forms. It's not something that applies for every one of his modes like some have mistakenly claimed over the years. It's less actual "multiple personalities" and more like he just speaks differently in his two beast modes.Gauntlet101010 wrote:- So far I do like Gigatron and the multiple personalities his modes have. He's Animated Blitzwing before Animated Blitzwing!
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Indeed. Makes Animated Blitzwing all the more special.Gauntlet101010 wrote:Fair enough, fair enough. I still like the idea, though.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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