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AllNewSuperRobot wrote:The worst offender being Sparks. The Autobots and Decepticons now always had them, which they didn't. For example, Ultra Magnus being "rebuilt" in The Movie, clearly shows they didn't have them.

I actually agree with your stance on retcons but you chose a poor example to try to make your pointless

The only thing ultra Magnus being rebuilt clearly proves is that he actually wasn’t dead and just heavily damaged and in pieces, which by the way we saw several times before in the series without a characters death

And let’s not forget the fact that the concept of sparks Was first created in the early Scripps of the film which also contain the scene of ultra Magnus is getting heavily damaged and later being rebuilt so the so-called retcon ofsparks actually fits into the film quite easily

Likewise the hollow attempts to shoehorn Car Robots and Animated into G1, for no reason.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong but that was only done in the Japanese continuity, and if I’m right ....... I believe we are talking about the Sunbow/hasbro cartoon, So who cares what the Japanese did with their continuity?

What is the problem with keeping them separate ?

Hasbro has

Takara hasn’t

This way we get a little of both

It bugs me too. Other than Galvatron, Cyclonus etc being "christened" by Unicron, I don't recall this ever happening outside of Beast Wars. What was the point of it too? They could have left out those lines of dialogue and no one would have questioned that EG Cheetor was always named Cheetor.

Well we have seen some characters named them selves at creation but yeah not necessarily getting a new name with some form of an upgrade

Sabrblade wrote:And characters would go on to change their names post-upgrades in other shows later. Megatron would rename himself Galvatron

Slight correction, Megatron did not rename himself
Unicron did that

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:You don't have to think of the Transformers of the G1 cartoon as having had Sparks since Beast Wars isn't specifically set in that same continuity (except for in the Japanese version, but which is okay since Japanese Transformers fiction had already referred to Transformers as having souls or hearts, so the Spark concept would apply to that).

Possession ,Bad Spark ,The Agenda and Nemesis would all say otherwise

Actually no they don’t, and they actually prove nothing ass towards continuity

The only thing they actually prove is that the beast wars takes place in the universe that contain similar events to those that we saw in the G1 cartoon, Not to mention the G1 comic as well

Sabrblade wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Likewise the hollow attempts to shoehorn Car Robots and Animated into G1, for no reason.

1) That never happened with Animated..

1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOB8V9eW2qo Watch upto about the first minute.[/quote]Not this same old tired argument?
No offense to you and you might not be aware but win that series 1st aired that so-called historical footage launch wars of debates here

What did you expect that video to prove?
It does not prove that there is any connection to the G1 continuity it only proves that the animated continuity shared some similar events to that of the g1 cartoon
Which by the way has happened in a lot of continuities

I thought would’ve been pretty obvious with the fact that animated Optimus prime never met that Megatron because he was not around those many millions of years ago

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:And characters would go on to change their names post-upgrades in other shows later. Megatron would rename himself Galvatron

Slight correction, Megatron did not rename himself
Unicron did that

Kindly re-read what I wrote without cutting it off mid-sentence.

Dude I’m so sorry I really don’t know how I missed that you have my sincere apologies

The only difference I have is that a few hours earlier I was at the eye doctor and they dilated me but I thought at that point I was seeing better already

Beast Wars was pretty good. I liked it a lot as a kid. Nowadays I still like it a lot but the ending could have been better. I didn't much care for Beast Machines. I'm also still kind of puzzled over the discovery of the Ark in Beast Wars. I once thought Beast Wars was set in the distant future of Earth....but now I'm wondering if it was actually the distant past.

Chibi Starscream wrote:Beast Wars was pretty good. I liked it a lot as a kid. Nowadays I still like it a lot but the ending could have been better. I didn't much care for Beast Machines. I'm also still kind of puzzled over the discovery of the Ark in Beast Wars. I once thought Beast Wars was set in the distant future of Earth....but now I'm wondering if it was actually the distant past.

It was both of the future and the past

Let me explain the characters come from the future meaning primal
, Megatron and the others are all from the distant future,

During the chase and the battle they travel back in time and end up in the past Sometime in the 4 million years after the autobot ship crashed and the real awakening in 1984

Ok thanks guys. That seems to make more sense.

So I've been away, semi-serious real life rubbish. I note some points to address, which I'll get to in due course.

In the meantime however, following conversation with a friend, I wanted to touch on Sparks again and their power.

So, the Quantum Surge hits.
Certain Predacons and Maximals, effectively become Triple Changers (kind of) instantly. An upgrade.
Optimus Primal absorbs the Spark of Optimus Prime and becomes a Quad-Former. A massive upgrade.
Megatron absorbs the spark of his namesake and... loses his Triple Changer form?? A downgrade? (we're not seriously including "dragster mode" as viable)

1) Was the Dragon stronger than TM T-Rex or did his increase in strength only come from retaining a G1 spark? It was supposed to be a powerful form, in words, never really shown.

2)Regardless of toy design, was the idea that Prime's spark was more powerful than Megatron's? BW Megs didn't become a Quad-Former after all.

Good to see you’re back

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:.
Megatron absorbs the spark of his namesake and... loses his Triple Changer form?? A downgrade? (we're not seriously including "dragster mode" as viable)

I think it counts as a third mode since it is listed on the toybox and instructions from what I recall correctly if I’m wrong though

2)Regardless of toy design, was the idea that Prime's spark was more powerful than Megatron's? BW Megs didn't become a Quad-Former after all.

Two things first, primes spark was connected to the matrix And all the other “primes” that came before
Second, I was never convince it was the spark of G1 Megatron alone that caused BW Megatron’s body to mutate

My idea that megs got an upgrade was that he mutated into a dragon (which raises a few questions mainly why it took that appearance) dragons are generally symbols of immense power after all but that aside it was strange unless it turned out that the original idea was a mutated t rex but I've got no proof of that, it's conjecture on my part.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Good to see you’re back

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:.
Megatron absorbs the spark of his namesake and... loses his Triple Changer form?? A downgrade? (we're not seriously including "dragster mode" as viable)

I think it counts as a third mode since it is listed on the toybox and instructions from what I recall correctly if I’m wrong though

Thanks!
It did feature in the instructions. But it's never been used, seen or acknowledged outside of them. Aside from the obvious question: "why would a Flier need a car mode?"

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:2)Regardless of toy design, was the idea that Prime's spark was more powerful than Megatron's? BW Megs didn't become a Quad-Former after all.

Two things first, primes spark was connected to the matrix And all the other “primes” that came before
Second, I was never convince it was the spark of G1 Megatron alone that caused BW Megatron’s body to mutate

Now I did consider the Matrix angle, but from visual evidence in Optimal Situation, it is very sketchy and open to interpretation. Prime's Spark seems to be held in a "Matrix casing" as opposed to the Matrix itself. Note: Prime's spark leaves The Matrix and it falls empty to the ground. Also note, no Maximal reacts to the sight of it, which could indicate it wasn't the Creation Matrix itself.

Likewise, Megatron's transformation is dubious, as you say. Look at the two of them. There were traces of Prime in Optimal Optimus, whereas TM 2 Megatron carries no overt audio or visual cue from his namesake. Also where did the basis for the Beast Mode come from??

ZeroWolf wrote:My idea that megs got an upgrade was that he mutated into a dragon (which raises a few questions mainly why it took that appearance) dragons are generally symbols of immense power after all but that aside it was strange unless it turned out that the original idea was a mutated t rex but I've got no proof of that, it's conjecture on my part.

Sabrblade wrote:The original idea that Forward and DiTillio were going with when the Optimal Optimus and Transmetal 2 Megatron upgrades came about was that they were each the result of Optimus Primal and Megatron, respectively, simply carrying two sparks in their bodies instead of just one. The addition of an extra spark in their bodies, which were not originally built to hold more than one, is what brought about their mutations.

Yes. So, assuming it was His spark alone, was Prime Spark supposed to be that much stronger than Megatron?

Let's look purely at the Tech Specs:





Immediately, there is a discrepancy between them and also how they were portrayed. Now the case can be made, Primal returned the spark of Prime and lost a sufficient boost in raw power, hence why he was often embarrassingly defeated in this form. That said, Megatron didn't display an overt "devastating" advantage. He simply wasn't hit as often.

I always figured that primal got beaten because the writers realised the ultimate folly of having a character receive their ultimate form well before the end...namely that they can't have them be untouchable till the rival is of equal power, so you have to compensate

ZeroWolf wrote:I always figured that primal got beaten because the writers realised the ultimate folly of having a character receive their ultimate form well before the end...namely that they can't have them be untouchable till the rival is of equal power, so you have to compensate

Like they did with Gigatron and BW Galvatron. So powerful they were "asleep" for long periods of time. I mean in the case of Gigatron, if the leader is a Six-Ten Former, why does he need troops? Especially those as weak and inept as he had.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Thanks!
It did feature in the instructions. But it's never been used, seen or acknowledged outside of them. Aside from the obvious question: "why would a Flier need a car mode?"

Because it’s cool

Serious answer there could be some cabins or on underground ruins that a flyer just can’t get into

Now I did consider the Matrix angle, but from visual evidence in Optimal Situation, it is very sketchy and open to interpretation. Prime's Spark seems to be held in a "Matrix casing" as opposed to the Matrix itself. Note: Prime's spark leaves The Matrix and it falls empty to the ground. Also note, no Maximal reacts to the sight of it, which could indicat it wasn't the Creation Matrix itself.

Yeah I wasn’t referring to but we sure on the Show, the visual of the container Justs Make a bigger mess of things

I was referring to more of a metaphysical connection, prime carried the matrix for nearly 9,000,000 years and this connection to the matrix is on another level

Likewise, Megatron's transformation is dubious, as you say. Look at the two of them. There were traces of Prime in Optimal Optimus, whereas TM 2 Megatron carries no overt audio or visual cue from his namesake. Also where did the basis for the Beast Mode come from??

Maybe the remains of a real dragon in the cave

Yes. So, assuming it was His spark alone, was Prime Spark supposed to be that much stronger than Megatron?

Let's look purely at the Tech Specs:





Immediately, there is a discrepancy between them and also how they were portrayed. Now the case can be made, Primal returned the spark of Prime and lost a sufficient boost in raw power, hence why he was often embarrassingly defeated in this form. That said, Megatron didn't display an overt "devastating" advantage. He simply wasn't hit as often.

Good question I’ll try to think of something

Exactly, it's power creep gone wrong

Sabrblade wrote:The original idea that Forward and DiTillio were going with when the Optimal Optimus and Transmetal 2 Megatron upgrades came about was that they were each the result of Optimus Primal and Megatron, respectively, simply carrying two sparks in their bodies instead of just one. The addition of an extra spark in their bodies, which were not originally built to hold more than one, is what brought about their mutations.

That may be what they say after the fight but I just don’t think they did a very good job of making that abundantly clear

ZeroWolf wrote:Exactly, it's power creep gone wrong

What

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Thanks!
It did feature in the instructions. But it's never been used, seen or acknowledged outside of them. Aside from the obvious question: "why would a Flier need a car mode?"

Because it’s cool

Serious answer there could be some cabins or on underground ruins that a flyer just can’t get into

The problem is the show didn't even hint that he had an alternate mode to the Dragon. I mean they at least showed his TM "roller skates" once or twice.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:Exactly, it's power creep gone wrong

What

power creep - The situation where updates to a game introduce more powerful units or abilities, leaving the older ones underpowered.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:Exactly, it's power creep gone wrong

What

I'm finding it hard to explain, but basically the writers put too big a threat in the way and had to deal with it in ways that weren't satisfactory

Rodimus Prime wrote:Dragons are not real.

I thought the same but I was just gonna let that slide