Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

"Vintage", "Retro" and "Nostalgia" has been a big trend in the toy world for the past few years and we simply seem to be getting more. For instance, we currently have on shelves:
- Super 7 recreating the toy aesthetic of the late 70s with new characters that were never made in that style in their ReAction line.
- Mattel recreating the toy aesthetic of 80s MOTU figures for designs of MOTU characters that never appeared in the original line (like the 200X series in that classic style) in their MOTU Origins line.
- Hasbro making late 70s style figures of new Stars Wars characters from the Mandalorian and Obi-Wan series in their Star Wars Retro line.
- McFarlane reviving the 80s Super Powers line by adding DC characters that were never part of the original line as well as modern takes on DC characters with the same scale and articulation.
- Marvel Legends having a subline filled with carded 3.75 inch characters with limited articulation reminiscent of toys sold in the late 70s, early 80s.



These are all well known characters/brands replicating a style or aesthetic from the 80s and yet that list is missing a major player of that era: Transformers. The Transformers brand inspires so much nostalgia and strength among older fans that some will even debate whether or not the Transformers toylines sold in kids' toy aisles, like Legacy, is more for them than it is for kids. If we look at the toy brands mentioned at the top of the article which have a retro toyline, like Star Wars, DC, Marvel and He-man, each of those brands also have more kid friendly lines and at least one toyline dedicated to highly detailed and highly articulated figures at the same price points as deluxe/voyager Transformers toys (which technically makes Transformers a better deal than any other similarly priced action figure since they have double the parts count).

We'll take Marvel for the simplest comparison. The multiple Marvel Legends waves each year are in the same vein as the multiple Studio Series and Legacy waves we get. For kids, Marvel has a bunch of toylines, like the Monsters line, the Mech Line, the Bending line, movie specific lines (recently Thor and Spider-man) and those are in the same vein as the Cyberverse and Earthspark toylines for Transformers. And then there is also the Marvel Legends Retro line, which they are going full hog on, even to the point of introducing different scales like with the new Sentinel figure. There is no counterpart to that in the Transformers line.

Sure the Transformers line has figures labelled as retro, but these are rereleases of pre-existing figures, nothing new like McFarlane's new Super Powers line, or the Marvel Legends Retro line, or the Star Wars Retro line. And I make sure to bring up those last 2 a lot because they are from Hasbro, which means Hasbro sees the value in this retro type of play or collecting and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on brand new molds. The Transformers line becomes one of the only major lines in the toy aisle which does not have a comparable retro line alongside its other lines.

So the question then becomes, is that untapped potential, or a dodged bullet? And how would that even look like. An equivalent could be a redeco of G1 blades in Alpha Bravo colours giving fans the option of having that extra combiner limb on their vintage Superions. Or you could have the G1 characters/toys in their Bayverse decos. Like a silver G1 Jazz or a G1 Optimus with a flame design on his cab. How about an Ironhide and ratchet similar in deco to their E-Hobby releases but with extra parts to plug in a head with references to their Bayverse looks. Or a new mold of a 70s Camaro to give us a Bayverse Bumblebee but with G1 style transformation and articulation.

It could also be G1 toys we never had, like redecos of the G1 seeker mold and have it be Acid Storm. Or a retool of the wings to give us a G1 Windblade. Going the G1 route, they could release that G1 headmaster Arcee, from a redeco/retool of Chromedome. Or simply make a fully new G1 style toy based on the initial design.

Another example could be a grey G2 Megatron sold in G1 packaging to retroactively give G1 Megatron a tank mode so that we can have a cohesive aesthetic of the character of his various tank modes throughout the different eras. These ideas have been around for a while, as evident by the digibash you can find below from site owner Seibertron himself, but with more retro type product out there than ever before in the retail toy aisle, it's the perfect time to bring them back. The question is, would you fans be up for it? I ask because while this may look fun, there have been recent lines that mirrored the G1 toyline in terms of being out of scale and simpler than Generations toys, like the Cyberverse line, and those were mocked by many fans who even questioned their existence. Which makes one wonder, if the G1 line was released today, with all its partsforming, hollowness, non show accuracy, lack of articulation and simplicity, would it be mocked just like fans are mocking other lines suffering from the same issues?

Is this a thing that we want? Is this a thing that we need? Let us know what you think, both in terms of how a line like this would look like and if it is something that would interest you.

While it was a joke for a while to call the Generations line "G1 with Knees" hopefully we have moved beyond that now. While I do think it is cool that so many action figure IP from decades past are getting modernized, unfortunately it's one thing that really isn't practical with Transformers.

They are not just action figures. They are also vehicles, (or alt mode), and a puzzle to boot. I mean the most recent re-release of *Just* the Original Optimus Prime Cab a couple of years ago at Walmart had an asking price of $50.00 USD. Now granted I personally think that was outrageous, but its still a reality, even if nobody bought it and it went on clearance for half the price.

While there are opportunities for older lines like MOTU, GI Joe, Super Powers, Marvel etc. to take vintage toys and "modernize" them; to do the same to any older Transformer (give it full modern articulation), would not be *impossible*, but would be quite costly, and impractical I would think. Thus the reason the Generations line exists. To give us modernized takes on characters from past lines, and even some who never existed in toy form.

So in some ways, you could say Hasbro was ahead of the game with Transformers. Starting over a decade ago. While the Generations line started mostly as representations of the High Moon games, and IDW comics, they've moved ever forward towards more classic interpretations of characters, with the occasional stylized version, which is fine.

o.supreme wrote:While there are opportunities for older lines like MOTU, GI Joe, Super Powers, Marvel etc. to take vintage toys and "modernize" them; to do the same to any older Transformer (give it full modern articulation), would not be *impossible*, but would be quite costly, and impractical I would think. Thus the reason the Generations line exists. To give us modernized takes on characters from past lines, and even some who never existed in toy form.

This isn't about modernizing toys, it's the opposite. The Super powers, Star Wars and marvel retro lines only have 4-5 points of articulation. So they are taking new designs and characters and retrofitting them into simpler toys. So basically, it would be taking G1 toys and making redecos into characters we never got, not adding complexity or articulation.

...well I would pass, but I also have zero G1 nostalgia, so I'm not the target audience for this hypothetical anyway. Some of them could be cool to see I guess?

It really does feel like something that should happen some day. We've talked previously on the forum about how a prototype Unicron and Arcee should be done in HasLab and it was brought up on the Twincast Podcast that we should have a TF equivalent to the Skystriker crowdfund. We sort of got that with the dino tapes, particularly the Walmart set Which featured retro Hasbro packaging and new molds on figures not previously released by Hasbro.

I think leaders are probably the best bet. Start with G1 style toys of Beast Wars Primal and Megatron and work their way up through the lines from there.

Emerje

One thing o.supreme did get right will, is that Transformers are complicated enough that there's no way to say exactly how such "retro-forming" would work. In fact, beyond what Super7 is already doing with ReAction figures and "Ultimates", in which the idea's apparently to make them so retro that they predate the concept of actually transforming, which concept would you even attempt to latch onto?

-Current iterations of characters with simpler transformations and limited articulation?
The different skill-levels for any current movies and kid-oriented lines (Cyberverse, RID 2015) have effectively absorbed that concept.

-Going back to the good-ol' days of die-cast construction?
That lost art was found again by the Titanium line. How long did that last? And did they really knock any War Within design so far out of the park that we wouldn't like to see it redone bigger and better? Our current Siege mold Tetrajets also leave a bit to be desired, but still, does anyone around here really miss Titanium? To me, metal mostly means paint chipping. Just ask poor Headstrong.

-Characters from vintage media getting the toy now that they should've gotten back in the day?
The current poster-child for TFs who FINALLY got that decades overdue toy is Jhiaxus. Now, obviously if he had gotten an actual G2 toy in '93-'94, it would've been a little different...but how, exactly? The Laser Rods really raised the bar for articulation at that time, and toys' price points were more set by unifying-sub-group-gimmick that the size-classification ushered in by Beast Wars, so I guess he'd have just been the one BIG toy one year instead of Dreadwing or Laser Optimus Prime. That means he'd have firing missiles somewhere, and fewer sculpted details than the Legacy Voyager, but does that distinctly scream "retro-G2"?

If I could find it, I'd close with that quote from someone at Super7 explaining their design philosophy by recounting that they made their initial prototype ReAction figures in accordance with fans wanting them "just like back in the day", but focus groups (?) responded that they wouldn't accept figures so retro that they passed "an acceptable level of s#itty". Transformers is such a complicated franchise that trying to cater to fans who claim to want toys "how they were when I was a kid", beyond straight-up reissues and Super7 type stuff wouldn't produce anything that would even make logical sense, at least not distinctly enough to set it apart from what's already being produced.

From a marketing perspective, picture someone staring at a toy aisle that magically has every Transformers product available from the last 2 years to present, and complaining, "Why won't they just make new Transformers like they used to?" What NEW but RETRO thing would you design to cater to them? If you can answer that, then it would be possible to do something "retro" that hasn't been done. But nostalgia can work in ways that defy all logic.

If I get into this any more, I'll have to tell the story of one college roommate that I can trace all my animosity towards GEEWUNNERS to, the only time I've regretted reaching out to a fellow fan and helping them reconnect with their childhood love of Transformers. That story's it's own essay, and maybe I should post it in Transtopia under the title "What did 'Tony' want?", just to get it out of my head someday. No idea what the hell his problem was. The closest thing I can come to a summary/moral of that semester is, when someone claims they want to see something from their childhood revived, revisited, etc, but they respond to any evidence that said property existed beyond their cutoff point (be that 1987, or some medium they had no access to in childhood) by becoming ENRAGED for some reason, just drop it, and walk away. I have no idea why he got so pissed off whenever anything post-Movie came up, and Hasbro has no one in their marketing department that could devise anything he or anyone with that mindset would actually like.

If "retro Transformers" isn't already happening, it probably isn't possible.

I don't think it works even for what it's already being used for. :/ Also, in the case of G.I. Joe it's a flat-out ripoff because it relegates them to Kenner Star Wars articulation instead of what real vintage Joes had, so I want to see the trend halted in its tracks and Super 7 forced to give people refunds en masse for their scam products. I normally don't care for that language wrt toys, but in the case of the retraux Joes I feel it actually fits.

Regarding Transformers... which G1 toy style? Diaclone and MicroChange style? Movie-onward style? I don't see the former happening because it would result in expensive bricks with missile launchers that may or may not work well, and the latter wouldn't really offer anything much. And either approach probably wouldn't get on well with a lot of post-G1 characters.

I like this idea since we can get G1 Arcee this way.

no way, i sold all my g1 to get the new up dates, i only git g1 figures as that was best representation. I felt mugged off as a kid and i don’t want to pay for that experience. The thing thay was good about g1 was the designs not the way they were executed. And this would be for the super rich. Why would you want a toy that is not from your child hood but has all the bad qualities from your child hood. Sounds like hasbro is asking the community as it would be big profit as they dont have to make molds for missing g1 figs, they can reuse what they have

Bumblevivisector wrote:One thing o.supreme did get right will, is that Transformers are complicated enough that there's no way to say exactly how such "retro-forming" would work. In fact, beyond what Super7 is already doing with ReAction figures and "Ultimates", in which the idea's apparently to make them so retro that they predate the concept of actually transforming, which concept would you even attempt to latch onto?

(snip)

If "retro Transformers" isn't already happening, it probably isn't possible.

Yeah, o.supreme is 100% right on that, like he said they are more than action figures since they also feature puzzle play, putting them in an entirely different market category. And I guess that means before we even attempt to wonder if it would sell, we have to figure out what "it" is.

Your last sentence is a good point too. As I wrote, there was a suggestion of it in the past, at least from the fan community. But it never got enough traction for Hasbro to step in and make it happen. Instead, what Hasbro deems retro for Transformers is either a reissue or modern toys in retro decos or retro boxes. Wrecknrule Springer or Buzzworthy Terrorsaur/Dinobot is clearly what hasbro thinks works better than what we might be suggesting.

Though the Encore line was a pretty good effort too in the opposite end of the spectrum, giving "improved" takes on G1 molds like a G1 Bumblebee with a toon accurate head and G1 head inserts for Ironhide and ratchet.

G1 Headmasters. That is all.

I would love to see this, with original molds too. A G1 style Drift, other now "standard" characters like Lockdown, Lugnut and Barricade, maybe an RiD Strongarm or some of the imaginary cassette bots like Stinger would all be amazing to me. Edit: forgot to mention this initially, but some totally 100% new characters would also be fantastic here.

I think this is something that would sell to kids too if the engineering and quality was somewhere in that 1988 level of simple design with detailed sculpting. Something smaller than the Headmaster Jr./Powermaster sized stuff with die-cast trying to hit the pre-TF Diaclone engineering paradigm would probably be too niche to appeal to kids, but that's just my take on it. Haven't been a kid myself for awhile

Personally, I would not want this to happen, but I also am aware that I am not the target audience for this hypothesis either.

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:Personally, I would not want this to happen, but I also am aware that I am not the target audience for this hypothesis either.

I'm sort of scratching my head at the whole thread. Last year we had G1 Retro style Headmasters from recent toys. They've been doing "retro packaging" actual G1 reissues for years with classic packaging. I would say Transformers is among the first to even start doing this...but maybe I'm missing the point.

sol magnus wrote:

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:Personally, I would not want this to happen, but I also am aware that I am not the target audience for this hypothesis either.

I'm sort of scratching my head at the whole thread. Last year we had G1 Retro style Headmasters from recent toys. They've been doing "retro packaging" actual G1 reissues for years with classic packaging. I would say Transformers is among the first to even start doing this...but maybe I'm missing the point.

I think the idea is like "what if we took CW Rook, made a G1-mold Rook with appropriate size and articulation, so that way you could add a Rook to your G1 Defensor to match your CW Defensor"

Kinda like that 3P "G1" combiner that was animals and all blocks with G1 articulation

Hearts of Steel comic miniseries would fit the bill.

As many ReAction GI Joes as I see everywhere warming shelves...no, I don't think it would work for Transformers. Granted, it kind of depends on how they handle it (those figures are somehow both worse than classic RAH Joes in articulation AND wildly overpriced), but I suspect half the appeal of these things for companies is that they can make them on the cheap. Which means no diecast, poor articulation, and limited transformations.

As others have mentioned, if they think they can sell original Optimus with no trailer for $50, no way they're going to be releasing G1 style toys for a reasonable price. At best, you're gonna end up with something like those Minibot keychains from a few years ago.

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Minibot#Fun4All ... 2F_2007.29

william-james88 wrote:This isn't about modernizing toys, it's the opposite. The Super powers, Star Wars and marvel retro lines only have 4-5 points of articulation. So they are taking new designs and characters and retrofitting them into simpler toys. So basically, it would be taking G1 toys and making redecos into characters we never got, not adding complexity or articulation.

ok, my apologies. I was a little confused because your example shows MOTU classics which takes vintage figures and increases the articulation. Also DC Superpowers matches the 7 POA of the originals, but the toys are all new, not using the same mold as vintage (but they lack the action features of the originals). So even in this day and age of "bringing back" older toys, different toy manufacturers are taking a different approach.

Now that I get your meaning. I'm sure some might work. We could probably get a Datsun Barricde, but I'm not sure what else, and also, as others said, if there would be enough demand.

Spider5800 wrote:Which means no diecast, poor articulation, and limited transformations.

Isn't that what most G1 toys from 86 and on are? You basically described G1 Kup.

sol magnus wrote:

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:Personally, I would not want this to happen, but I also am aware that I am not the target audience for this hypothesis either.

I'm sort of scratching my head at the whole thread. Last year we had G1 Retro style Headmasters from recent toys. They've been doing "retro packaging" actual G1 reissues for years with classic packaging. I would say Transformers is among the first to even start doing this...but maybe I'm missing the point.

Now you are making me worried I didn't explain it properly in the article. Did you read it till the end?

o.supreme wrote:

william-james88 wrote:This isn't about modernizing toys, it's the opposite. The Super powers, Star Wars and marvel retro lines only have 4-5 points of articulation. So they are taking new designs and characters and retrofitting them into simpler toys. So basically, it would be taking G1 toys and making redecos into characters we never got, not adding complexity or articulation.

ok, my apologies. I was a little confused because your example shows MOTU classics which takes vintage figures and increases the articulation. Also DC Superpowers matches the 7 POA of the originals, but the toys are all new, not using the same mold as vintage (but they lack the action features of the originals). So even in this day and age of "bringing back" older toys, different toy manufacturers are taking a different approach.

Yeah, its all different approaches, and Transformers would have it's own approach, and we're all here trying to see what that would mean to us. My example with MOTU Classics was not to show how the old toys improved but how that line was retrofitting new designs into it. So converting new versions, like the 200x He-Man and Skeletor which I point out in the example, into more 80s looking figures.

And yes, I did forget that the Super Powers line had knees

Ah, G2 Megatron you’re a big brick that could kill a man if thrown at his head, but we still love you so.

A lot of retro remakes of other lines like MOTU, GIJoe and even Star Wars are about the packaging.

Now with all the “no plastic” and windowless packaging, I seriously don’t think we will ever see it for Transformers.

Gone are the days where expensive robots with diecast parts came in beautiful windowed boxes, snuggle with syrofoam

Not to mention, instruction sheets and catalogue inserts that were printed on high quality paper instead of the printed toilet paper used now

I'm not a very big G1 guy, but I'd be down for a release of G1 Unicron. Them finishing the Arcee prototype would be pretty good too. Any new tape molds ... just take my money!

Outside of those, though? The G1 cast is very complete. And TFs, unlike the other retro lines, are expensive. I don't know if there's a strong enough demand for G1 era toy technology. Plus, I think the timing is off. With the last few years being as G1 screen accurate as possible in the mainline G1-technology retro toys may be pushing that retro market too far.

Plus TFs are expensive. Arcee and Unicron are big names, but would people pay for a G1 style Drift or Windblade? And I think this sort of thing would only make sense if you're also releasing G1 faves like OP and Megs. So how far do you go with that?

Of course I'm not really into retro style toys. Give me modern toys with retro looks any day!

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:I don't think it works even for what it's already being used for. :/ Also, in the case of G.I. Joe it's a flat-out ripoff because it relegates them to Kenner Star Wars articulation instead of what real vintage Joes had, so I want to see the trend halted in its tracks and Super 7 forced to give people refunds en masse for their scam products. I normally don't care for that language wrt toys, but in the case of the retraux Joes I feel it actually fits.

Regarding Transformers... which G1 toy style? Diaclone and MicroChange style? Movie-onward style? I don't see the former happening because it would result in expensive bricks with missile launchers that may or may not work well, and the latter wouldn't really offer anything much. And either approach probably wouldn't get on well with a lot of post-G1 characters.

There is also the rights to some of the molds for some of toys that part were from other anime series that could result in a bunch of lawsuits.

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:I think the idea is like "what if we took CW Rook, made a G1-mold Rook with appropriate size and articulation, so that way you could add a Rook to your G1 Defensor to match your CW Defensor"

Kinda like that 3P "G1" combiner that was animals and all blocks with G1 articulation

Toys that answer the question "What if Rook, Offroad and Alpha Bravo had been made in 1985?" is also something that would be awesome to see happen

optimeow wrote:A lot of retro remakes of other lines like MOTU, GIJoe and even Star Wars are about the packaging.

Now with all the “no plastic” and windowless packaging, I seriously don’t think we will ever see it for Transformers.

Gone are the days where expensive robots with diecast parts came in beautiful windowed boxes, snuggle with syrofoam

Not to mention, instruction sheets and catalogue inserts that were printed on high quality paper instead of the printed toilet paper used now

Habro seems to make an exception for retro toys, for the exact reason you mention. That's why while Star Wars Vintage toys are now coming closed box, the Star Wars retro toys are still in clear plastic. The retro beast wars toys which replicate the beast wars rock bubble style are still being sold in clear plastic too. So I don't think that would be an issue.