The Energon Pub

Knives wrote:I did not say there was no way the bot modes could be imbalanced. I am simply advocating trying them out without stat. restrictions first, so we can be sure. And really, the bot modes are already restricted by the lvl. xp caps. And at about 3-4 points into the bot mode the xp required to lvl. it gets prohibitive even for a lvl. three. Is a third restriction really necessary? That is the question I want answered, and we will not get that answer by jamming this change into the game before we have a chance to see it in action in V2.0.

a third restriction is necassary becuase;
1.it only take's slightly more than 3million exp to max out bot modes which at high levels is nothing and the effects of bot modes are more than worth it, some bot modes, the one giving you two +50% bonuses are particualarily attractive since it starts getting multiplacative bonuses(much like strafe)

2. the xp caps are uncompataible with a balanced stat system, and are a result of how broken the current stat system is, they do not relflect at all the actual effectiveness of any particular config.

Knives wrote:And I will not keep silent about something just because some big name on the boards, even someone involved in the game development, tells me it is a certain way. I am a firm advocate of free expression even if you sometimes wish you could throttle the other guy. That is why I am not dissmissing Tammuz's claims outright and trying to shout him out. All I want is a test run, nothing more. If the bot modes umbalance things that far, then you can bet your energon stash I will be for implimenting the change. Heaven knows I have been victim of game exploiters here often enough. I just want to make sure that choice is not unnecessarily restricted.

what restrictions are you talking about?!

the only restriction we're suggesting is that shouldn't be allowed to build a bot that beats the crap out of a bot of the same level, whether i configured it to be awesome or you configured it to be one of your fan characters! we're restricting it so that levels 1s can't beat the snot of level 3s, so that my level 6s can't go toe to toe against sprokitz level 8s

you want pure numbers?

lets take Burn's level 8s

Nurse Erica's weekly earnings - 2,374,540xp
Dead Reckoning's - 1,315,557xp

Dead Reckoning has the better weapons(gatling gun > battle blades) and 3 times as much xp, however his bot mode only boosts his strength, where as erica's boosts both her intel and here endurance, both have had approximately the same playtime.

+100% xp per week for what equates to 5 little upgrades more

now do you actually doubt that having 5-10 more points would improve your bot in battle?

hell if you've got 10 points in recon bot mode you'll never miss an opponet with an identical configuration sans bot mode, and they'll only hit you 50% of the time, with action masters that gives you twice the longevity in battle.

I have reset my level 7 strafing avoider into a lvl 5 one with 10 points of Computational robot mode stats. He'll probably make it to lvl 6 in very short time, but it shall be interesting to see the results.

I think I just had one of those Eureka moments. I have noticed for a while that the bulk and computational modes are not working correctly. But I was also noticing that the recon mode is not having a noticable effect either. Could the problem be with the coding for the dual stat bot mode types? It would certainly explain a great deal of the results I have been getting on transformers with as much as six points in their bot modes but with no improvement...

Knives wrote:I think I just had one of those Eureka moments. I have noticed for a while that the bulk and computational modes are not working correctly. But I was also noticing that the recon mode is not having a noticable effect either. Could the problem be with the coding for the dual stat bot mode types? It would certainly explain a great deal of the results I have been getting on transformers with as much as six points in their bot modes but with no improvement...

possibly,(though it's very hard to gauge the difference 3 points make without having 10 in something else) but quite frankly my recon bots are raking in the xp so they are recon is doing something

Tammuz wrote:

Knives wrote:I think I just had one of those Eureka moments. I have noticed for a while that the bulk and computational modes are not working correctly. But I was also noticing that the recon mode is not having a noticable effect either. Could the problem be with the coding for the dual stat bot mode types? It would certainly explain a great deal of the results I have been getting on transformers with as much as six points in their bot modes but with no improvement...

possibly,(though it's very hard to gauge the difference 3 points make without having 10 in something else) but quite frankly my recon bots are raking in the xp so they are recon is doing something

But not the right thing. I have bots with 5+ armour and end. in their tech specs who have seen no improvement when they should be seeing an effective 8+ in fights with the bulk types. And the only computational type I have is on a bot built for higher Int. with courage coming in second. The computational type has not improved it's repair or frequency of action at all. And my three bots with recon. are losing to bots who appear to have two to three plus less speed then mine do total.

I have however noticed the effects of the assault and melee types. As little as two points in those have produced better xp turnout on average for the three bots that have them. Too bad I could care less about more XP per fight.

Knives wrote-
Too bad I could care less about more XP per fight. Sad


Seriously man, the game is all about amassing XP.

DISCHARGE wrote:Knives wrote-
Too bad I could care less about more XP per fight. Sad


Seriously man, the game is all about amassing XP.

Not for everyone. For me, it is more of a transformer simulator. Not everyone is obssesed with reaching the highest lvl. quickly. In fact most games with a leveling system are about the journey to max level, not the endgame.

Knives wrote:

Tammuz wrote:

Knives wrote:I think I just had one of those Eureka moments. I have noticed for a while that the bulk and computational modes are not working correctly. But I was also noticing that the recon mode is not having a noticable effect either. Could the problem be with the coding for the dual stat bot mode types? It would certainly explain a great deal of the results I have been getting on transformers with as much as six points in their bot modes but with no improvement...

possibly,(though it's very hard to gauge the difference 3 points make without having 10 in something else) but quite frankly my recon bots are raking in the xp so they are recon is doing something

But not the right thing. I have bots with 5+ armour and end. in their tech specs who have seen no improvement when they should be seeing an effective 8+ in fights with the bulk types. And the only computational type I have is on a bot built for higher Int. with courage coming in second. The computational type has not improved it's repair or frequency of action at all. And my three bots with recon. are losing to bots who appear to have two to three plus less speed then mine do total.

I have however noticed the effects of the assault and melee types. As little as two points in those have produced better xp turnout on average for the three bots that have them. Too bad I could care less about more XP per fight.

why would bot modes affect tactic frequency?

i beg to differ; compu bot modes are definetly improving repairs. no doubt about it.

as to whether it improving frequency of attack that's a little harder to qualify as i don't know the current frewquency of attack mechanic, but i do know having lots of speed makes up for a little courage.

likewise Armour is screwed, you'll only notice a real affect on it when you have lots of tonnes of decent stuff(god knows which type that is), and even then it will only be noticable from heavy attacks(if amours reducing damage by a quarter, then you'll hardly notice it on attacks that do 4%, but 40% the damage should be obvious)

i had a look at ryu no genshjidai, and it does seem bulks are boosting endurance, quite a few times and taken less than the minimum damage cap for rams of certain strength , though plugging in 7.5 end rather than 5 they do fit the damage. mechanic.

i also reckon recon's working fine too as my 10spd/9recon guy hasn't missed once in his recent battles, and he's faced some 10 speed opponents.

Tammuz wrote:likewise Armour is screwed, you'll only notice a real affect on it when you have lots of tonnes of decent stuff(god knows which type that is), and even then it will only be noticable from heavy attacks(if amours reducing damage by a quarter, then you'll hardly notice it on attacks that do 4%, but 40% the damage should be obvious)

Is armour screwed up or is it more a case of the output damage by certain weapons being screwed up?

Burn wrote:

Tammuz wrote:likewise Armour is screwed, you'll only notice a real affect on it when you have lots of tonnes of decent stuff(god knows which type that is), and even then it will only be noticable from heavy attacks(if amours reducing damage by a quarter, then you'll hardly notice it on attacks that do 4%, but 40% the damage should be obvious)

Is armour screwed up or is it more a case of the output damage by certain weapons being screwed up?

a little of coloumn A(glyph told me rank wasn't a good indicator of armour effectiveness), and alot of coloumn B(i know the weapons are screwed up)

Knives wrote:In fact most games with a leveling system are about the journey to max level, not the endgame.

Anyone who's ever played WoW or Pokemon or any level based game that doesn't have a decent story to it ie FF7 wrote:The game sucks at the start while you try to level up but when you get to a high enough level, then the game gets fun.

If you play for roleplay purposes, then what does it matter to you if having points in your robot mode abilities affect level? The original aim of games with levelling systems is to attain the highest level possible in as little time as possible.

This is very very much a game based on mathematics and as such any extra numbers - in this case robot mode abilities - ought to make a difference to the level. Being so adamantly against having abilities count toward level atually casts a doubt on your claims of being in it for the RPG, because a true roleplayer wouldn't care about this stuff.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the fact that tactics used to not count toward level, until the issue of level bullying was raised. Well now we have a new way of increasing the strength of a character above it's given level and the precedent has been set. There's no arguement in what should be done about it.

i think both me and red mentioned it quite early on, didn't we?

Daneki wrote:I'm surprised no one's mentioned the fact that tactics used to not count toward level, until the issue of level bullying was raised. Well now we have a new way of increasing the strength of a character above it's given level and the precedent has been set. There's no arguement in what should be done about it.

Except the level limits are now in place, so if a person wants to overamp they can do so but they'll find themselves at a higher level anyway.

The only flaw to that is it only goes up to level 6. Trust me, a maxed out robot abilities bot sitting at level 7 when it could be level 8 can do a fair amount of damage.

The level limits need to be extended all the way through the levels.

Burn wrote:

Daneki wrote:I'm surprised no one's mentioned the fact that tactics used to not count toward level, until the issue of level bullying was raised. Well now we have a new way of increasing the strength of a character above it's given level and the precedent has been set. There's no arguement in what should be done about it.

Except the level limits are now in place, so if a person wants to overamp they can do so but they'll find themselves at a higher level anyway.

The only flaw to that is it only goes up to level 6. Trust me, a maxed out robot abilities bot sitting at level 7 when it could be level 8 can do a fair amount of damage.

The level limits need to be extended all the way through the levels.

level5's can be nigh undefeatabaly, even with the level cap.

Yeah but we all expected the level limits would have to be adjusted once they were put into play.

we did?

What, you expected OS to get it right on the first go?
Settle down OS fanboys, he knows i'm only joking and it's not an insult of his programming skills.

Burn wrote:What, you expected OS to get it right on the first go?
Settle down OS fanboys, he knows i'm only joking and it's not an insult of his programming skills.

no, i just don't expect him to try, we got xp caps, job done.

He did update them. It was put in this thread here. And listed here.

Also, I still think that as its a variable/resettable stat, RM's should be added to level count. If you couldnt reset them however, then I'd understand leaving them out.

In my mind, the numbers win overall. A balanced game = a safe and fair game for all.