The Energon Pub

[Yotsuyasan]

I'm getting a bit bothered by the Knock Off threads that have been appearing as of late. Specifically ones created under the pretense of reporting the existence of them, and which sometimes thus end up appearing as news on the website's front page.

First off, I understand fully the need to report the existence of knock offs. If I'm buying a high-end Transformer, and there is a chance there may be a knock off out there, yeah, I'd kind of like to know.

But I strongly question the way knock offs have been reported here lately.

There's multiple threads floating around lately whose main purpose seems to be mentioning knock offs exist, posting multiple pictures of them showing how good they look, and posting links to where you can buy them. And it really makes me wonder if these threads are truly meant to warn against them rather than to inform about them to less then scrupulous Transformers collectors.

Is there a need for these threads to include galleries of photos illustrative of how identical they are to the original toy? If we know what the original looks like, surely we'd get the idea. I'd suggest photos are only necessary if they specifically highlight differences between the original and the knock off that can be useful in telling them apart and making the knock off easier for legitimate Transformers collectors to avoid.

Also, is there a need for links? It has been suggested that they are necessary as proof of existence. Um... okay. Was there ever a case of such a knock off being reported and the reporter being a big fat liar? If the knock off exists, just say so. I'll believe you.

If it is only a rumor of a knock off, say that too. I'll at least know to be on guard for any "too good to be true" deals. And if rumor becomes fact later, you can just give us an update then. But I don't need links.

One might suggest that links are necessary to know which stores to avoid. Just tell me which stores you've seen them at. Providing a link is unnecessary. My problem is that these threads seem to be becoming advertisements for the knock offs. If someone wants to buy one, I say let 'em at least work a little bit for it by having to type in a web address then search the offending retailer site. And I especially don't think links to eBay auctions are ever necessary in knock off reporting. A knock off exists and it is being sold on eBay. Oh my god, I am so surprised.

The reporter still thinks at least one link is necessary for accountability, afraid of being accused of making it up? I can grudgingly almost see the need for that. But why more than one? And why further updates later in the thread, after you've proven it exists, providing more links to more purchasing options?

At what point does a thread stop being warning and start being advertising?

If it is advertising, I don't like it. But fine, whatever. At least present it as such, and stop pretending you are providing a service to legitimate collectors. And to those who decide what is news worthy of being on the front page, for the love of god stop presenting these threads as news.

If it is news, I'd suggest such threads should be subject to unusual restriction. Have the initial post end with a strong disclaimer against purchasing such things. At most one link to where one can be purchased (for informational purposes only) in the initial post, and no further such links in follow up posts. No photos in the thread unless they are specifically highlighting differences that can be used to tell the knock off from the legitimate product. I'd even suggest locking the threads after the first post, so that they exist as informational tools only and cannot be followed by ten posts of, "Awesome, thanks! I'm totally buying that! Screw Hasbro!" But if discussion is allowed, I'd suggest holding posters in these threads to the same heightened rules regarding images and links.

What do my fellow forum members think? More importantly, what do the mods and other powers that be think? And please, do not post here if all you are going to do is say something that boils down to, "I love knock offs, so everything you just said is dumb." This isn't a discussion about knock offs, but rather how they are reported. If you disagree with me, please do so on that basis and provide a reasoned argument for your disagreement. I'd like to avoid the ever repeated "ko/anti-ko" debate.

I fear I shall not be at my computer much this weekend, but I look forward to seeing what response this might generate and will chime in when I can.

Thank you.

[xyl360]

I have knockoffs so everything you just said is...oh, oops .

Yeah, I pretty much agree. If it is a warning, simply showing detailed images up close of the differences between the real deal and the KO should be sufficient, including differences in packaging and colors etc. that way those who wish to avoid them know what to look out for.

The rest isn't needed for a warning thread. That does not mean that others who are interested in purchasing one can't have a separate thread discussing it, including where to purchase (yes, including links etc.), but that stuff does not belong in a news thread warning against the KOs IMO, especially on a website which itself is extremely anti-third party and anti-KO. It just doesn't fit in around here I don't think, at least not on the front page (the KO & 3rd party forum is obviously the place for those threads).

I guess maybe since both are a discussion of the same product, it could be argued that all discussion, including 'advertising' should be in one thread, but in these cases specifically, based on what you said as well as my comments above, I tend to think it should be kept separate.

[megatronus]

It seems you just want basic details on the KOs so you can identify and avoid them.

Now, that would be fine for a news post, and indeed, that's largely what's happening when the News Crew puts these warnings on the home page.

But, this isn't just a news site. It's a community collected (no pun intended) around a hobby we all enjoy. And we all have different interpretations of how and what that hobby should look like.

So, when threads expand or narrow in scope, move from topic to topic, or shift from warnings about KOs to links to purchase them or other details for the non-discriminating collector or fan, you're free to take issue with it, but I don't think you should complain about it. That's just the name of the game and a function of the community participating in sourcing discussions.

[Agamemnon]

I appreciate knowing what retailers are selling the knock-offs. Then I know who to avoid.

In the past I bought an Encore Metroplex from one of the Amazon retailers. Now, in between I had seen some news about KO Encore Metroplex. This made me wary. When I received the item, I looked at the packaging, and it sure looked like it had the signs of being a KO. I couldn't tell for sure until I opened it, but the vendor would not take the item back if I had actually opened it. So I sent it back. (The vendor assured me that his vendor assured him that all product was legit. I have never heard what they found when they opened one...)

Eventually I was able to get a legit Encore Metroplex (probably from BBTS.) But, as a result of this, I will avoid any retailer that sells KOs, especially if they also sell legit items. KOs are just getting too close to the real thing for my tastes. And I fall under the crowd that doesn't like it when KOs are counterfeit items. (KOs in garish colors sit better with me, but mainly in cases where it is impossible to economically gain an original or re-release. My Vehicle Voltron is an example of that. I know it's not the real thing. It was never sold as being the real thing. But I do have fun playing with it and won't have a cow if my kids break him.)

So, I hope this helps justify the feeling I have that the KO threads are just fine. Unless we are going to go to a system where each and every post is approved before publishing, we're going to get discussions like this. And I prefer to err on the side of expression than censorship. It results in a lot of great (and entertaining) discussions.

[Gauntlet101010]

I'd prefer it is KO threads were closed right after being made. I'm sick of the same KO VS AntiKO posts being brought up again, and again, and again.

[Yotsuyasan]

I'd prefer it is KO threads were closed right after being made. I'm sick of the same KO VS AntiKO posts being brought up again, and again, and again.

That's kind of why I made this thread... I saw there was a new KO thread, from someone (who I won't name, so I can try and maintain some appearance of not picking on particular posters) who in the past said he made such posts as a warning, and all his post was was pretty pictures of the KO. The only other post in that thread at the time I made this one was someone responding that he felt bad at anyone who bought the legit figures at regular prices.

My first thought was to make an annoyed post in that thread. But then I figured that would just dredge up the same circular arguments that always happen in those threads. Thus why I decided to just try making a separate thread questioning not that thread's specific content, but the value of such threads in general. I hoped it might help keep things more civilized, and perhaps even constructive.

It seems you just want basic details on the KOs so you can identify and avoid them.

Now, that would be fine for a news post, and indeed, that's largely what's happening when the News Crew puts these warnings on the home page.

But, this isn't just a news site. It's a community collected (no pun intended) around a hobby we all enjoy. And we all have different interpretations of how and what that hobby should look like.

So, when threads expand or narrow in scope, move from topic to topic, or shift from warnings about KOs to links to purchase them or other details for the non-discriminating collector or fan, you're free to take issue with it, but I don't think you should complain about it. That's just the name of the game and a function of the community participating in sourcing discussions.

I suppose part of what I take issue with is that the news posts are linked to the discussion threads, and thus even if I know it is unintentional I take that as Seibertron.com looking like it is endorsing knock offs.

I also suppose I'd have a lot less of a problem with such discussions if I could just easily avoid them all together. It is kind of a separate discussion, so I hesitate to bring it up in this thread, but I really, really wish that third party items and knock offs were in separate forums. It bothers me greatly to have the two so closely associated.

Third party items are original products that may be heavily inspired by and paying homage to Has/Tak product, but don't do so using stolen or copied molds. Knock offs, even if recolored or remolded slightly, are just theft, and in my opinion have little or no place in the fandom. Having them lumped together never sat well with me.

Of course, splitting them could cause some argument on where exactly the line is drawn. For example, the cab section on Maketoys Novae Prime is uncomfortably close to the line to me. It obviously depends heavily on the engineering that Hasbro put into the RTS Optimus Prime mold. But I think it stays just barely on the third party side of the line. On the other hand, the iGear Masterpiece Coneheads I see as knock offs of the Masterpiece Seeker mold. Others may disagree, however. So alas, it can be a blurry line. And that is why I suspect they were lumped together.

With Has/Tak product, it is rather black and white: Either Has/Tak produced or licensed it, or they did not. If the did, it's an official toy. If they didn't, it isn't. Not quite the same as trying to decide what counts as what from twenty different manufactures, some of who may produce things that could questionably fall into either category, creating many shades of grey.

[Burn]

I'd prefer it is KO threads were closed right after being made. I'm sick of the same KO VS AntiKO posts being brought up again, and again, and again.

But then the News Crew have to change how they do things. One thing we DON'T do is lock news threads.

Do we now make exceptions? Locking threads is basically saying "No you can't discuss it". That's an attitude we discourage, we're all about discussing things as long as it's civil.

Do we lock every movie related thread just so it doesn't devolve into "RARGH! MICHAEL BAY CHILDED MY RAPEHOOD!"? (Most of them do anyway)

Where do we draw the line? KO warning threads are there for people who don't want to buy KO's so they know they're out there. They're informative threads. On the flip side, some people want them, if someone posts a link to where they can buy them that's fine. It's not part of the original news story and it is related to the original news story.

And before anyone brings up "Well if you're going to allow news stories about KO's then you should allow news stories about 3rd party".

There's a simple answer for that. 3RD Party products are NOT Transformers. They're simply a different line of toys that transform form, much like the Robotech line, they're just based on existing TF's but they're not actually TF's. KO's however, have a direct connection to TF's and we do put the news out there as a public service so people don't get scammed.

Now I'm sure people will disagree with me, go right ahead, not going to change my opinion, so you might want to spare yourself the time and effort, but look at it from a Staff perspective on why we report about KO's.

[njb902]

I'd prefer it is KO threads were closed right after being made. I'm sick of the same KO VS AntiKO posts being brought up again, and again, and again.

Or they could just make it a rule to not post links to suppliers.

[megatronus]

I suppose part of what I take issue with is that the news posts are linked to the discussion threads, and thus even if I know it is unintentional I take that as Seibertron.com looking like it is endorsing knock offs.

If you know anything about Ryan (which you may not), then you gotta know that's 100% not true.

I also suppose I'd have a lot less of a problem with such discussions if I could just easily avoid them all together. It is kind of a separate discussion, so I hesitate to bring it up in this thread, but I really, really wish that third party items and knock offs were in separate forums. It bothers me greatly to have the two so closely associated.

Again, name of the game. Whether the conversation goes into the regular KO vs. not-KO arguments is immaterial to me personally. I understand why you might be frustrated with it, but I think it's a necessary evil if we as a community are going to remain well informed as to where these things exist and how best to avoid them.

Third party items are original products that may be heavily inspired by and paying homage to Has/Tak product, but don't do so using stolen or copied molds. Knock offs, even if recolored or remolded slightly, are just theft, and in my opinion have little or no place in the fandom. Having them lumped together never sat well with me.

Oh, 100% agree with you. I have a nice selection of 3rd Party figures (mainly Hercules, Feral Rex, Intimidator, and FP Insecticons) as well as countless accessories. It's a totally different game than KO's.

Of course, splitting them could cause some argument on where exactly the line is drawn. For example, the cab section on Maketoys Novae Prime is uncomfortably close to the line to me. It obviously depends heavily on the engineering that Hasbro put into the RTS Optimus Prime mold. But I think it stays just barely on the third party side of the line. On the other hand, the iGear Masterpiece Coneheads I see as knock offs of the Masterpiece Seeker mold. Others may disagree, however. So alas, it can be a blurry line. And that is why I suspect they were lumped together.

3rd Parties are already a rather grey area, and I do think where you draw the line is a personal preference, whether it involve personal finances, design considerations, or something else.

With Has/Tak product, it is rather black and white: Either Has/Tak produced or licensed it, or they did not. If the did, it's an official toy. If they didn't, it isn't. Not quite the same as trying to decide what counts as what from twenty different manufactures, some of who may produce things that could questionably fall into either category, creating many shades of grey.

This is exactly why we need the news posts and subsequent links to buy - it may come off as an advertisement to you (it definitely does not to me - I think the News Crew does a good job in this respect), but it's making sure that folks like us who would much rather not buy a KO, don't buy a KO.

[Yotsuyasan]

I suppose part of what I take issue with is that the news posts are linked to the discussion threads, and thus even if I know it is unintentional I take that as Seibertron.com looking like it is endorsing knock offs.

If you know anything about Ryan (which you may not), then you gotta know that's 100% not true.

Only have a second as I am on my way out the door again, but just as a quick clarification, I shall point out that I said, "even if I know it is unintentional." Part of my whole point is that this website is supposed to be, officially, somewhat anti-knock off. Yet it ends up, through these threads, unintentionally supporting them.

...stuff...

Alas, no time to reply... But you always seem someone with whom intelligent discourse is nice, so I shall get to your post when I can.

[Gauntlet101010]

I'd prefer it is KO threads were closed right after being made. I'm sick of the same KO VS AntiKO posts being brought up again, and again, and again.

But then the News Crew have to change how they do things. One thing we DON'T do is lock news threads.

Do we now make exceptions? Locking threads is basically saying "No you can't discuss it".

I'd point out that there are things staff does encourage not discussing. For instance, bringing back 3rd party products to the main page news. And questioning Ryan's decision about it. Exceptions are made when it makes sense.

KO news thread are just ... annoying. It's the exact same topic over and over again. The same topic that just devolves into the same discussion. With movie news at least the topic of discussion changes. Maybe it devolves into flames; I couldn't say (have no interest in those posts so I just stay out of them), but with KOs it's the exact same thing all the time.

Anyway, as a frequenter of this section that's just my perspective.

[Agamemnon]

[Lots of stuff, then this:]

I suppose part of what I take issue with is that the news posts are linked to the discussion threads, and thus even if I know it is unintentional I take that as Seibertron.com looking like it is endorsing knock offs.

[then some more stuff...]

I don't think I've ever seen this happen. The news crew is pretty clear what they are doing in creating the news story. It's a leap, in my opinion, to view the continuing discussion as an endorsement by the site or site owner of KOs. (And besides, anybody who has been around a while, or reads through a couple of these types of threads, will see the environment pretty clearly. Seibertron is pretty consistent in his view.)

Plus, all the stuff Burn said...

And Dead Metal...

(I feel like an old man around here...)

[Burn]

Alas, no time to reply... But you always seem someone with whom intelligent discourse is nice,

Clearly you haven't met me.

KO news thread are just ... annoying. It's the exact same topic over and over again. The same topic that just devolves into the same discussion. With movie news at least the topic of discussion changes. Maybe it devolves into flames; I couldn't say (have no interest in those posts so I just stay out of them), but with KOs it's the exact same thing all the time.

Trust me, they end up the same way. People breeze in and start ranting and raving, throwing around anti-Bay stuff, etc etc. At least with KO's you see a final product, the movie stuff rantings are based on images from a movie that is far from finalised.

[Rated X]

What would be gained if you got your way ? You Accuse this site of Unintentionally glorifying KOs. But you just created your own thread discussing how KOs should and shouldnt be reported. Some clueless kid is going to click on this thread out of curiousity and discover the wonderful world of KOs because youre feeding into the controversy. My advice to you is just ignore everything KO related. Worry about what you collect and stop worrying about what others collect. You might save yourself a few ulcers.

[njb902]

What would be gained if you got your way ? You Accuse this site of Unintentionally glorifying KOs. But you just created your own thread discussing how KOs should and shouldnt be reported. Some clueless kid is going to click on this thread out of curiousity and discover the wonderful world of KOs because youre feeding into the controversy. My advice to you is just ignore everything KO related. Worry about what you collect and stop worrying about what others collect. You might save yourself a few ulcers.

So does that include MLP Transformers variant covers?

[robotmel]

A great man once wrote...

Worry about what you collect and stop worrying about what others collect. You might save yourself a few ulcers.

If you dont like it, dont look at it!

I love a good KO as much as an original and welcome any news thread which informs me of any differences and also where I could purchase one, if I wanted to.

I have recently bought the KO MP Red Alert beacuse he was cheap at £25 but Ive also just bought an original MP Prowl because he was cheap at £45. No problems here.

[Autobot032]

Perhaps wordings could be handled slightly better, but what is it exactly that you demand of us? Should we not report those fakes? Should we not help save a fellow collector/fan from falling into the trap of being duped into buying a fake at real prices?

Please, tell us. Because we are doing the fandom a service, not promoting anything. We do have a 3rd party forum and people are allowed to discuss all non Transformer items, including KOs. Just because there's a discussion thread, doesn't mean we're condoning such items, or allowing such actions.

For news to be posted, we must first start with a post in a pre-existing topic, or open a brand new thread. From there, the news article can be built. So while you may think we're glorifying (and we're not), we're doing our jobs the only way we can: Basing an article off of a pre-existing post. You want us to tie our hands, but we can't do that.

And as Burn said, closing a news topic is a no go. So, again, our hands are tied. So, again I ask, what would you have us do?

We are open to suggestions. Feel free to give us ideas.

EDIT: Decided to respond in more detail.

There's multiple threads floating around lately whose main purpose seems to be mentioning knock offs exist, posting multiple pictures of them showing how good they look, and posting links to where you can buy them. And it really makes me wonder if these threads are truly meant to warn against them rather than to inform about them to less then scrupulous Transformers collectors.

First of all, there's no need to disparage our good name by making conspiracy theories that shouldn't exist. We are not in the business of selling 3rd party or KOs, nor do we promote them. That's the long and short of it.

Is there a need for these threads to include galleries of photos illustrative of how identical they are to the original toy? If we know what the original looks like, surely we'd get the idea. I'd suggest photos are only necessary if they specifically highlight differences between the original and the knock off that can be useful in telling them apart and making the knock off easier for legitimate Transformers collectors to avoid.

Yes, there is a need to include galleries. The Scorponok report is a perfect example. We showed images that had both the original and the KO. In those pictures, you could clearly see a build quality difference. However, to the untrained eye, if they hadn't had those side by side, they could've easily been fooled by the KO. We didn't go into a full gallery of the figure itself. Then, you might have some weight to your argument, but as of right now? This part of it? No. You're just flat out wrong.

Also, is there a need for links? It has been suggested that they are necessary as proof of existence. Um... okay. Was there ever a case of such a knock off being reported and the reporter being a big fat liar? If the knock off exists, just say so. I'll believe you.

If it is only a rumor of a knock off, say that too. I'll at least know to be on guard for any "too good to be true" deals. And if rumor becomes fact later, you can just give us an update then. But I don't need links.

Yes, it is important. 1.) We can provide proof, so we're not called liars. 2.) We can point out exactly who the seller(s) is/are so you can AVOID them. 3.) Just because you believe doesn't mean all will. I'm sorry, but we do our best to cater to everyone, we can't make just you happy. (This is not me being a jerk, I'm stating an actual fact. It is literally impossible for us to do.)

One might suggest that links are necessary to know which stores to avoid. Just tell me which stores you've seen them at. Providing a link is unnecessary. My problem is that these threads seem to be becoming advertisements for the knock offs. If someone wants to buy one, I say let 'em at least work a little bit for it by having to type in a web address then search the offending retailer site. And I especially don't think links to eBay auctions are ever necessary in knock off reporting. A knock off exists and it is being sold on eBay. Oh my god, I am so surprised.

Every thing we have, you tend to throw back in our faces. It's almost like you have it out for us. I don't know why. We've been good to the community, to the fandom, so, I'm not sure where this is coming from. I don't know why you're so angry with us. (And it does come across as anger.)

Links are so people can see who's selling and what. This way we can also report it to Hasbro. AND eBay. And it does work! We've had people tell us "Thank you, you saved me from buyer's remorse." And that makes us feel good.

At what point does a thread stop being warning and start being advertising?

At what point will you stop? At what point will you be happy? You are more than welcome here, you're a part of this community. But please, contribute, don't detract from it. Posting stuff like this, especially in this manner, doesn't help. You could've made the same point without being so angry and ranty. You could've found better way to touch base with us, rather than coming at us guns blazing.

We don't bite. We're nice people, you guys are more than welcome to ask us questions. But, please do so with respect.

If it is advertising, I don't like it. But fine, whatever. At least present it as such, and stop pretending you are providing a service to legitimate collectors. And to those who decide what is news worthy of being on the front page, for the love of god stop presenting these threads as news.

It is not advertising. Not. Not. Not. We don't do that. We never report on accessories, or Shapeways, or anything 3rd party or KO on the main page. Never.
We only have a 3rd party forum so our regular members can discuss their love for those items. Allowing the people to discuss them is not the same as promoting them. Is not.

If it is news, I'd suggest such threads should be subject to unusual restriction. Have the initial post end with a strong disclaimer against purchasing such things. At most one link to where one can be purchased (for informational purposes only) in the initial post, and no further such links in follow up posts. No photos in the thread unless they are specifically highlighting differences that can be used to tell the knock off from the legitimate product. I'd even suggest locking the threads after the first post, so that they exist as informational tools only and cannot be followed by ten posts of, "Awesome, thanks! I'm totally buying that! Screw Hasbro!" But if discussion is allowed, I'd suggest holding posters in these threads to the same heightened rules regarding images and links.

It IS news. Unusual restriction would require locking them after they've been posted. We will not do that. Won't.

We do post disclaimers. We'll work on wording them better, but we do post them.

We hold ALL posters to the same rules as you are held to. I don't know where you got the idea that certain individuals curry favor with us, but it's simply not true. Everyone is equal, not more or less than another.

I fear I shall not be at my computer much this weekend, but I look forward to seeing what response this might generate and will chime in when I can.

Thank you.

Now see, this bothers me. I find this disingenuous. You go to the trouble of starting this thread, come across as angry and ranty, and then basically say you're taking a break for the weekend and you'll come back to see what's been said. To me, that seems to be of ill repute. At least stick around and defend your argument when we counter it. At least give us the chance to do just that. This seems rather unfair and very disappointing.

If people have a problem, they're more than welcome to voice it, but they should discuss it with us, instead of threads like these. You can make threads, but at least be around to fully discuss it, and have an open mind. You ask the same of us, we ask the same of you.

[Rated X]

What would be gained if you got your way ? You Accuse this site of Unintentionally glorifying KOs. But you just created your own thread discussing how KOs should and shouldnt be reported. Some clueless kid is going to click on this thread out of curiousity and discover the wonderful world of KOs because youre feeding into the controversy. My advice to you is just ignore everything KO related. Worry about what you collect and stop worrying about what others collect. You might save yourself a few ulcers.

So does that include MLP Transformers variant covers?

Nah....my issue with MLP Is that a very small minority of the TF collecting community keeps trying to shove that crap down the rest of the fandoms throat and justify it because its a hasbro product. Cant they create their own fansite ? Cant they start their own convention ? or are they just in denial that they compose like 1% of the TF fandom ? Im sure theres a small following of TF fans who are also part of the Underwater Basket Weaving community, but you would never know because they keep that crap to themselves. I can understand a sig, but dont go beyond that. So one comic book artist that likes MLP wanted to make a statement to TF fans ? Who cares, screw him.

[njb902]

What would be gained if you got your way ? You Accuse this site of Unintentionally glorifying KOs. But you just created your own thread discussing how KOs should and shouldnt be reported. Some clueless kid is going to click on this thread out of curiousity and discover the wonderful world of KOs because youre feeding into the controversy. My advice to you is just ignore everything KO related. Worry about what you collect and stop worrying about what others collect. You might save yourself a few ulcers.

So does that include MLP Transformers variant covers?

Nah....my issue with MLP Is that a very small minority of the TF collecting community keeps trying to shove that crap down the rest of the fandoms throat and justify it because its a hasbro product. Cant the create their own fansite ? Cant they start their own convention ? or are they just in denial that they compose like 1% of the TF fandom ?

So I should just take my niece's copy and rip it to shreds then right? I mean sure it brings her joy, but it offends your sensibilities. It's not like you didn't just tell someone to chill out and pay attention to what they collect and to mind their own business about what others collect.

[Burn]

What would be gained if you got your way ? You Accuse this site of Unintentionally glorifying KOs. But you just created your own thread discussing how KOs should and shouldnt be reported. Some clueless kid is going to click on this thread out of curiousity and discover the wonderful world of KOs because youre feeding into the controversy. My advice to you is just ignore everything KO related. Worry about what you collect and stop worrying about what others collect. You might save yourself a few ulcers.

So does that include MLP Transformers variant covers?

Nah....my issue with MLP Is that a very small minority of the TF collecting community keeps trying to shove that crap down the rest of the fandoms throat and justify it because its a hasbro product. Cant the create their own fansite ? Cant they start their own convention ? or are they just in denial that they compose like 1% of the TF fandom ?

Wait ... so ... you don't like MLP fans "shoving their crap down the rest of the fandoms throat" but you get to harp on about your anti-Hasbro stance on a regular basis?

As others have said about KO's, and what I'm going to tell you about MLP. Just ignore it. It's not harming you.

[Dead Metal]

This thread sucks.

[Yotsuyasan]

Perhaps wordings could be handled slightly better, but what is it exactly that you demand of us?

I demand nothing. This is a privately run website, provided to me free of charge, and moderated by volunteers who should be applauded for their efforts. My post was intended as suggestions, to generate a discourse on something I personally see as a problem, so that the powers at be might perhaps think on the issue and see if it is a problem, and if it is what might be done differently or better.

Should we not report those fakes? Should we not help save a fellow collector/fan from falling into the trap of being duped into buying a fake at real prices?

I never said not to report them. I just questioned if the way they have recently been being reported might be a little unintentionally clear as to the intent of such reports. Particularly the recent threads reporting Masterpiece knock offs, which I could have perhaps specified, but those have mostly been reported by one person and I was trying not to look like I was singling one person out.

And as Burn said, closing a news topic is a no go. So, again, our hands are tied. So, again I ask, what would you have us do?

I don't see why in these cases, an exception can't be made about creating a news topic connected to a locked thread. I never said people cannot then discuss the products, or even where to buy them. They can create a separate discussion thread which would then not be visible from a news story linked from the front page of the website.

We are open to suggestions. Feel free to give us ideas.

I am glad you are open to suggestions. And I thought I already gave you my ideas. Alas, when you expanded your post to reply in more detail, you seemed to display a vitriol that to my eyes betrays the immediately above quote.

EDIT: Decided to respond in more detail.

There's multiple threads floating around lately whose main purpose seems to be mentioning knock offs exist, posting multiple pictures of them showing how good they look, and posting links to where you can buy them. And it really makes me wonder if these threads are truly meant to warn against them rather than to inform about them to less then scrupulous Transformers collectors.

First of all, there's no need to disparage our good name by making conspiracy theories that shouldn't exist. We are not in the business of selling 3rd party or KOs, nor do we promote them. That's the long and short of it.

I suppose the above bit of mine, removed from the context of the rest of my post, does seem a bit accusatory of the powers that be in general. If you recall, much of my point centered around how the way things are currently done is unintentionally promoting knock off product.

Is there a need for these threads to include galleries of photos illustrative of how identical they are to the original toy? If we know what the original looks like, surely we'd get the idea. I'd suggest photos are only necessary if they specifically highlight differences between the original and the knock off that can be useful in telling them apart and making the knock off easier for legitimate Transformers collectors to avoid.

Yes, there is a need to include galleries. The Scorponok report is a perfect example. We showed images that had both the original and the KO. In those pictures, you could clearly see a build quality difference. However, to the untrained eye, if they hadn't had those side by side, they could've easily been fooled by the KO. We didn't go into a full gallery of the figure itself. Then, you might have some weight to your argument, but as of right now? This part of it? No. You're just flat out wrong.

Thank you for mentioning the Scoponok report. That is a perfect example of one done right, and if every knock off report was in that way I would be a lot happier.

On the other hand, we have stories like this, which are a photo of the product (that does nothing to distinguish it from the original), and includes a price and a link to where it can be purchased. And other then brief usage of the word, "beware," nothing to discourage against it or say why knock offs are bad. And then, the news story is followed by forum posts of people talking about how they are going to be buying it.

Other more recent forum threads by the same poster seem even less informative. Yesterday morning I saw a new one by him about another new Masterpiece knock off that was literally just a gallery of photos of the knock offs. Some had presumably the originals next to them in the photos, but without accompanying text or close up photos of potential detail differences, they came off to me more as, "They're almost exactly like the originals!" rather than, "Here is how you can tell them apart, so you can know which ones to avoid." Granted, this post has not been made the subject of a front page news article, but given that a precedent had been set with that happening to one of his previous such posts, seeing that made me nervous and inspired what I wrote yesterday morning.

Back to ones that are made news articles, however: You asked for suggestions? Fine, here is an additional one above the ones I've already provided: such news stories should have a standardized disclaimer attached to them saying why bootlegs are bad, and reinforcing that the information provided about them is for educational purposes only.

Also, is there a need for links? It has been suggested that they are necessary as proof of existence. Um... okay. Was there ever a case of such a knock off being reported and the reporter being a big fat liar? If the knock off exists, just say so. I'll believe you.

If it is only a rumor of a knock off, say that too. I'll at least know to be on guard for any "too good to be true" deals. And if rumor becomes fact later, you can just give us an update then. But I don't need links.

Yes, it is important. 1.) We can provide proof, so we're not called liars. 2.) We can point out exactly who the seller(s) is/are so you can AVOID them. 3.) Just because you believe doesn't mean all will. I'm sorry, but we do our best to cater to everyone, we can't make just you happy. (This is not me being a jerk, I'm stating an actual fact. It is literally impossible for us to do.)

Well, as I asked, had there ever been a case of such a knock off being reported and the reporter being a big fat liar? And as for avoiding them:

One might suggest that links are necessary to know which stores to avoid. Just tell me which stores you've seen them at. Providing a link is unnecessary.

If it is important to have one link of proof in the news story, I already conceded that I'd not vehemently argue that point. But then we come back to where I feel that such news stories shouldn't have active forum threads attached. Those fill up with further links. Many of which will end up visible from the news story. If they were only visible in the forum thread, fine. But that would involve having a separate discussion and (locked) news thread, which you said is not on the table.

Every thing we have, you tend to throw back in our faces. It's almost like you have it out for us. I don't know why. We've been good to the community, to the fandom, so, I'm not sure where this is coming from. I don't know why you're so angry with us. (And it does come across as anger.)

I'm not quite sure how to respond to this part. Where am I throwing things in your face? You make it sound like I am personally accusing you of something. I tried very hard to make it sound that my main concerns were with some of what I was allowed in discussion threads about knock offs, and the potential for that to accidentally be visible on the main page linked news articles if those threads are directly attached to them. I was trying to see if there was any sort of consensus that it was a problem, offering some of my suggestions on what might be done differently if it is a problem, and then opening it up for discussion to see what others might have to say.

If anything, I don't understand your apparent anger towards me. If I have misinterpreted your tone, I apologize. But your post seems more like a counterattack towards me for an apparent inferred attack I never intended, then it does a reasoned reply.

Links are so people can see who's selling and what. This way we can also report it to Hasbro. AND eBay. And it does work! We've had people tell us "Thank you, you saved me from buyer's remorse." And that makes us feel good.

Which it should. But are links on this website necessary to report things to Hasbro and eBay? And to warn people, are links necessary, or cannot you just post an unlinked list of offending stores? People who don't want them can then know to avoid that store, and people who do want them then need to put in a few extra steps rather then just clicking directly from here to there.

At what point does a thread stop being warning and start being advertising?

At what point will you stop? At what point will you be happy? You are more than welcome here, you're a part of this community. But please, contribute, don't detract from it. Posting stuff like this, especially in this manner, doesn't help. You could've made the same point without being so angry and ranty. You could've found better way to touch base with us, rather than coming at us guns blazing.

And here is where it really feels like I am coming under attack from you. I am trying to contribute, yet you make me feel as if I am doing the opposite. I felt there was a problem, I explained my problem, and sought out the community to see if others might feel similarly or have any other views to contribute. Did I attack anyone personally? Did I say that anyone involved with the official workings of the website were intentionally and actively promoting knock off products?

I don't recall saying such things.

We don't bite. We're nice people, you guys are more than welcome to ask us questions. But, please do so with respect.

I very much tried to. And most everyone else here seems to have replied to this thread in kind. I didn't feel it much from you, I fear.

If it is advertising, I don't like it. But fine, whatever. At least present it as such, and stop pretending you are providing a service to legitimate collectors. And to those who decide what is news worthy of being on the front page, for the love of god stop presenting these threads as news.

It is not advertising. Not. Not. Not. We don't do that. We never report on accessories, or Shapeways, or anything 3rd party or KO on the main page. Never.
We only have a 3rd party forum so our regular members can discuss their love for those items. Allowing the people to discuss them is not the same as promoting them. Is not.

I was talking about the forum threads. Not the news posts. But since when the threads become the subject of news posts, they are then attached to them, that is where my problem lies. If the threads come off more as advertising (which they often do) they should not be attached to the news page. But since you said threads attached to news pages will never be locked, it becomes rather an inevitable problem. A Catch-22.

If it is news, I'd suggest such threads should be subject to unusual restriction. Have the initial post end with a strong disclaimer against purchasing such things. At most one link to where one can be purchased (for informational purposes only) in the initial post, and no further such links in follow up posts. No photos in the thread unless they are specifically highlighting differences that can be used to tell the knock off from the legitimate product. I'd even suggest locking the threads after the first post, so that they exist as informational tools only and cannot be followed by ten posts of, "Awesome, thanks! I'm totally buying that! Screw Hasbro!" But if discussion is allowed, I'd suggest holding posters in these threads to the same heightened rules regarding images and links.

It IS news. Unusual restriction would require locking them after they've been posted. We will not do that. Won't.

We do post disclaimers. We'll work on wording them better, but we do post them.

We hold ALL posters to the same rules as you are held to. I don't know where you got the idea that certain individuals curry favor with us, but it's simply not true. Everyone is equal, not more or less than another.

Where did I ever say anyone is favored, or held to different standards? I suggested that if they are to be attached to front page news articles, the forum threads and posts within then should be moderated a bit more strictly. Reguardless of who posts in them. You. Me. Tom. Dick. Harry. A boy named Sue. Everyone. I never suggested special treatment was or should be given to specific posters.

I fear I shall not be at my computer much this weekend, but I look forward to seeing what response this might generate and will chime in when I can.

Thank you.

Now see, this bothers me. I find this disingenuous. You go to the trouble of starting this thread, come across as angry and ranty, and then basically say you're taking a break for the weekend and you'll come back to see what's been said. To me, that seems to be of ill repute. At least stick around and defend your argument when we counter it. At least give us the chance to do just that. This seems rather unfair and very disappointing.

I had pre-existing plans this weekend, left home yesterday shortly after writing the initial post, and have only briefly had access to a computer since then. Normally, after writing starting such a thread yesterday, I'd feel it important to watch the thread in an effort to reply in a timely fashion to discussion generated by something I said. I was going to be unable to do that in this case, thus I wanted to warn people that I would reply when I could, but it might not be in a timely fashion. I suppose I could have waited until Monday to write the first post, but I felt it important to write it when it was still fresh to me.

I'm sorry I didn't feel like canceling my weekend plans. If it makes you feel any better, I've been neglecting my girlfriend and the friends we're visiting for the last hour or so for your benefit, as I felt it important to reply to your post when I saw it.

If people have a problem, they're more than welcome to voice it, but they should discuss it with us, instead of threads like these. You can make threads, but at least be around to fully discuss it, and have an open mind. You ask the same of us, we ask the same of you.

I did voice it. You attacked me for doing so. I also didn't know that we were forbidden from posting concerns to the forum without first clearing it with a moderator. I'll keep that in mind in the future. And I shall also keep in mind that if I post something here, that apparently forbids me from having any life beyond then continually looking at these forums for the next week.

(Edited to resolve a few minor formatting errors. No content changed.)

[robotmel]

Bring back Fanboy!

[Rated X]

What would be gained if you got your way ? You Accuse this site of Unintentionally glorifying KOs. But you just created your own thread discussing how KOs should and shouldnt be reported. Some clueless kid is going to click on this thread out of curiousity and discover the wonderful world of KOs because youre feeding into the controversy. My advice to you is just ignore everything KO related. Worry about what you collect and stop worrying about what others collect. You might save yourself a few ulcers.

So does that include MLP Transformers variant covers?

Nah....my issue with MLP Is that a very small minority of the TF collecting community keeps trying to shove that crap down the rest of the fandoms throat and justify it because its a hasbro product. Cant the create their own fansite ? Cant they start their own convention ? or are they just in denial that they compose like 1% of the TF fandom ?

Wait ... so ... you don't like MLP fans "shoving their crap down the rest of the fandoms throat" but you get to harp on about your anti-Hasbro stance on a regular basis?

As others have said about KO's, and what I'm going to tell you about MLP. Just ignore it. It's not harming you.

Well when i talk about hasbro im talking as a transformers fan about their transformers franchise on a transformers website. Im not here to talk about GI Joe, ninja turtles, cabbage patch kids, or toys that have nothing to do with transformers. I think they need to find their own venue and leave transformers alone. And if they happen to be transformers fans, come here to talk transformers and leave the ponies at home. Thats something im very Passionate about. The same way the creator of this thread is so passionite about abolishing KOs from this earth. As the transformers franchise becomes more and more mainstream thanks to michael bay, the fandom is moving foward past the stereotypes of nerds and weirdos. The jabronies are taking us two steps back in my opinion. If a fair weather TF fan is thinking about getting into the collecting scene, these clowns might scare him away before he ever gets to find out people like us exist. Im assuming youre not a MLP fan either even as a mod...

[Burn]

And if MLP stuff pops up in TF related threads, you use the "Report this Post" button to bring it to the attention of staff membmers so we can step in and get it back on track.

If MLP stuff pops up in General Discussion, suck it up Princess and ignore it.

Like I said, you carry your anti-Hasbro/pro-3P stance from thread to thread, Bronies have nothing on you.