The Energon Pub

[Autobot032]

Perhaps wordings could be handled slightly better, but what is it exactly that you demand of us?

I demand nothing. This is a privately run website, provided to me free of charge, and moderated by volunteers who should be applauded for their efforts. My post was intended as suggestions, to generate a discourse on something I personally see as a problem, so that the powers at be might perhaps think on the issue and see if it is a problem, and if it is what might be done differently or better.

Fair enough.

Should we not report those fakes? Should we not help save a fellow collector/fan from falling into the trap of being duped into buying a fake at real prices?

I never said not to report them. I just questioned if the way they have recently been being reported might be a little unintentionally clear as to the intent of such reports. Particularly the recent threads reporting Masterpiece knock offs, which I could have perhaps specified, but those have mostly been reported by one person and I was trying not to look like I was singling one person out.

We'll work on it for future news posts pertaining to KO warnings.

And as Burn said, closing a news topic is a no go. So, again, our hands are tied. So, again I ask, what would you have us do?

I don't see why in these cases, an exception can't be made about creating a news topic connected to a locked thread. I never said people cannot then discuss the products, or even where to buy them. They can create a separate discussion thread which would then not be visible from a news story linked from the front page of the website.

Part of the problem is, the board and website take up massive amounts of data on the server. Extra threads and pictures will eat up even more space and slow everything down. Plus, it can be difficult in the shuffle to keep everything tied together. I get where you're coming from, though.

We are open to suggestions. Feel free to give us ideas.

I am glad you are open to suggestions. And I thought I already gave you my ideas. Alas, when you expanded your post to reply in more detail, you seemed to display a vitriol that to my eyes betrays the immediately above quote.

There is no vitriol on my part, nor was there earlier this morning. I'm sorry if I came across as such. That was never my intention. And we will discuss your ideas and see what we can do.

There's multiple threads floating around lately whose main purpose seems to be mentioning knock offs exist, posting multiple pictures of them showing how good they look, and posting links to where you can buy them. And it really makes me wonder if these threads are truly meant to warn against them rather than to inform about them to less then scrupulous Transformers collectors.

First of all, there's no need to disparage our good name by making conspiracy theories that shouldn't exist. We are not in the business of selling 3rd party or KOs, nor do we promote them. That's the long and short of it.

I suppose the above bit of mine, removed from the context of the rest of my post, does seem a bit accusatory of the powers that be in general. If you recall, much of my point centered around how the way things are currently done is unintentionally promoting knock off product.

Well, it does seem accusatory. We work hard to bring you guys content, including FYI/warning articles. We want you guys to be safe out there and not get ripped off. We should work on the how of the delivery (wordings) and we'll talk about it amongst the news staff.

Is there a need for these threads to include galleries of photos illustrative of how identical they are to the original toy? If we know what the original looks like, surely we'd get the idea. I'd suggest photos are only necessary if they specifically highlight differences between the original and the knock off that can be useful in telling them apart and making the knock off easier for legitimate Transformers collectors to avoid.

Yes, there is a need to include galleries. The Scorponok report is a perfect example. We showed images that had both the original and the KO. In those pictures, you could clearly see a build quality difference. However, to the untrained eye, if they hadn't had those side by side, they could've easily been fooled by the KO. We didn't go into a full gallery of the figure itself. Then, you might have some weight to your argument, but as of right now? This part of it? No. You're just flat out wrong.

Thank you for mentioning the Scoponok report. That is a perfect example of one done right, and if every knock off report was in that way I would be a lot happier.

On the other hand, we have stories like this, which are a photo of the product (that does nothing to distinguish it from the original), and includes a price and a link to where it can be purchased. And other then brief usage of the word, "beware," nothing to discourage against it or say why knock offs are bad. And then, the news story is followed by forum posts of people talking about how they are going to be buying it.

Part of the problem with distinguishing the differences in that case is that it's difficult. I saw them and I can't honestly tell which is which. Again, we'll work on the wordings for future postings. I can definitely understand where you're coming from on this one. (I would've understood better this morning had you posted this. Please, in the future, show us stuff like this so we can work with you.)

Other more recent forum threads by the same poster seem even less informative. Yesterday morning I saw a new one by him about another new Masterpiece knock off that was literally just a gallery of photos of the knock offs. Some had presumably the originals next to them in the photos, but without accompanying text or close up photos of potential detail differences, they came off to me more as, "They're almost exactly like the originals!" rather than, "Here is how you can tell them apart, so you can know which ones to avoid." Granted, this post has not been made the subject of a front page news article, but given that a precedent had been set with that happening to one of his previous such posts, seeing that made me nervous and inspired what I wrote yesterday morning.

We do allow our staff to converse with the rest of the forum users as though it's just a conversation. We're not just posting the news or moderating something. I get why you're concerned, I do, but we cannot stop our staff members from being human and enjoying the same benefits you folks do. And as you said, it wasn't a news discussion, so there's nothing to worry about. Had it been a news article, I could fully understand what your issue in this part is.

Back to ones that are made news articles, however: You asked for suggestions? Fine, here is an additional one above the ones I've already provided: such news stories should have a standardized disclaimer attached to them saying why bootlegs are bad, and reinforcing that the information provided about them is for educational purposes only.

Agreed. That sounds perfectly sensible.

Also, is there a need for links? It has been suggested that they are necessary as proof of existence. Um... okay. Was there ever a case of such a knock off being reported and the reporter being a big fat liar? If the knock off exists, just say so. I'll believe you.

If it is only a rumor of a knock off, say that too. I'll at least know to be on guard for any "too good to be true" deals. And if rumor becomes fact later, you can just give us an update then. But I don't need links.

Yes, it is important. 1.) We can provide proof, so we're not called liars. 2.) We can point out exactly who the seller(s) is/are so you can AVOID them. 3.) Just because you believe doesn't mean all will. I'm sorry, but we do our best to cater to everyone, we can't make just you happy. (This is not me being a jerk, I'm stating an actual fact. It is literally impossible for us to do.)

Well, as I asked, had there ever been a case of such a knock off being reported and the reporter being a big fat liar? And as for avoiding them:

One might suggest that links are necessary to know which stores to avoid. Just tell me which stores you've seen them at. Providing a link is unnecessary.

If it is important to have one link of proof in the news story, I already conceded that I'd not vehemently argue that point. But then we come back to where I feel that such news stories shouldn't have active forum threads attached. Those fill up with further links. Many of which will end up visible from the news story. If they were only visible in the forum thread, fine. But that would involve having a separate discussion and (locked) news thread, which you said is not on the table.

During my time on staff, no one's been called a liar. I can't speak for the past, though. However, we do like to avoid such things, so we try to cover all aspects of the news and info at hand.

As for locking the threads, we can't. News helps spur discussion and for us to stop discussion on a message board would be counterproductive.

Every thing we have, you tend to throw back in our faces. It's almost like you have it out for us. I don't know why. We've been good to the community, to the fandom, so, I'm not sure where this is coming from. I don't know why you're so angry with us. (And it does come across as anger.)

I'm not quite sure how to respond to this part. Where am I throwing things in your face? You make it sound like I am personally accusing you of something. I tried very hard to make it sound that my main concerns were with some of what I was allowed in discussion threads about knock offs, and the potential for that to accidentally be visible on the main page linked news articles if those threads are directly attached to them. I was trying to see if there was any sort of consensus that it was a problem, offering some of my suggestions on what might be done differently if it is a problem, and then opening it up for discussion to see what others might have to say.

If anything, I don't understand your apparent anger towards me. If I have misinterpreted your tone, I apologize. But your post seems more like a counterattack towards me for an apparent inferred attack I never intended, then it does a reasoned reply.

The news staff is not just one person, it's several. We take pride in our efforts. When one is given a hard time, we all feel it. My response was not in anger, it was out of hurt. We are up all hours of the day and night taking turns to bring you the latest news and galleries, that's absolute truth. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was angry, I wasn't. I was dismayed, for sure. We have some new hires on the staff and they're still learning. It takes time. Like I said, we will work on this matter for the future.

Links are so people can see who's selling and what. This way we can also report it to Hasbro. AND eBay. And it does work! We've had people tell us "Thank you, you saved me from buyer's remorse." And that makes us feel good.

Which it should. But are links on this website necessary to report things to Hasbro and eBay? And to warn people, are links necessary, or cannot you just post an unlinked list of offending stores? People who don't want them can then know to avoid that store, and people who do want them then need to put in a few extra steps rather then just clicking directly from here to there.

Actually, yes. Sometimes Hasbro's people will see the news article before we can even get a report off to them and they step in. Plus it shows the people who to avoid exactly. However, we will take this under advisement and discuss it.

At what point does a thread stop being warning and start being advertising?

At what point will you stop? At what point will you be happy? You are more than welcome here, you're a part of this community. But please, contribute, don't detract from it. Posting stuff like this, especially in this manner, doesn't help. You could've made the same point without being so angry and ranty. You could've found better way to touch base with us, rather than coming at us guns blazing.

And here is where it really feels like I am coming under attack from you. I am trying to contribute, yet you make me feel as if I am doing the opposite. I felt there was a problem, I explained my problem, and sought out the community to see if others might feel similarly or have any other views to contribute. Did I attack anyone personally? Did I say that anyone involved with the official workings of the website were intentionally and actively promoting knock off products?

I don't recall saying such things.

I apologize. My intention was never to make you feel as though you were being attacked. I can honestly say I was not attacking you. Whether you believe it or not is up to you, but I do apologize for giving that impression. The way you approached the topic seemed angry and ranty. The words you used seemed very accusatory. I think if you had worded it slightly differently this thread might've had a better impact. Or at least a better reception. I do hope you will continue to come to us with ideas and concerns. We take them seriously.

We don't bite. We're nice people, you guys are more than welcome to ask us questions. But, please do so with respect.

I very much tried to. And most everyone else here seems to have replied to this thread in kind. I didn't feel it much from you, I fear.

Again, I apologize. Never my intention.

If it is advertising, I don't like it. But fine, whatever. At least present it as such, and stop pretending you are providing a service to legitimate collectors. And to those who decide what is news worthy of being on the front page, for the love of god stop presenting these threads as news.

It is not advertising. Not. Not. Not. We don't do that. We never report on accessories, or Shapeways, or anything 3rd party or KO on the main page. Never.
We only have a 3rd party forum so our regular members can discuss their love for those items. Allowing the people to discuss them is not the same as promoting them. Is not.

I was talking about the forum threads. Not the news posts. But since when the threads become the subject of news posts, they are then attached to them, that is where my problem lies. If the threads come off more as advertising (which they often do) they should not be attached to the news page. But since you said threads attached to news pages will never be locked, it becomes rather an inevitable problem. A Catch-22.

But it's still something we can work on. However, we can't stop people from commenting or take away their comments. That's not how we work. We like it when our members have the freedom to say what they want or how they feel. Sometimes those instances happen to be in a KO warning thread. If a person says they want to buy it, who are we to stop them? Who are we to say they shouldn't/can't?

If it is news, I'd suggest such threads should be subject to unusual restriction. Have the initial post end with a strong disclaimer against purchasing such things. At most one link to where one can be purchased (for informational purposes only) in the initial post, and no further such links in follow up posts. No photos in the thread unless they are specifically highlighting differences that can be used to tell the knock off from the legitimate product. I'd even suggest locking the threads after the first post, so that they exist as informational tools only and cannot be followed by ten posts of, "Awesome, thanks! I'm totally buying that! Screw Hasbro!" But if discussion is allowed, I'd suggest holding posters in these threads to the same heightened rules regarding images and links.

It IS news. Unusual restriction would require locking them after they've been posted. We will not do that. Won't.

We do post disclaimers. We'll work on wording them better, but we do post them.

We hold ALL posters to the same rules as you are held to. I don't know where you got the idea that certain individuals curry favor with us, but it's simply not true. Everyone is equal, not more or less than another.

Where did I ever say anyone is favored, or held to different standards? I suggested that if they are to be attached to front page news articles, the forum threads and posts within then should be moderated a bit more strictly. Reguardless of who posts in them. You. Me. Tom. Dick. Harry. A boy named Sue. Everyone. I never suggested special treatment was or should be given to specific posters.

But here, in the same response, you were complaining about a staff member discussing these in a non news thread. Hence my confusion. You want us to crack down on news articles that seem to be glorifying, and now on non news discussion threads as well. And because he's a member of staff. See why I mentioned the part about favoritism?

I fear I shall not be at my computer much this weekend, but I look forward to seeing what response this might generate and will chime in when I can.

Thank you.

Now see, this bothers me. I find this disingenuous. You go to the trouble of starting this thread, come across as angry and ranty, and then basically say you're taking a break for the weekend and you'll come back to see what's been said. To me, that seems to be of ill repute. At least stick around and defend your argument when we counter it. At least give us the chance to do just that. This seems rather unfair and very disappointing.

I had pre-existing plans this weekend, left home yesterday shortly after writing the initial post, and have only briefly had access to a computer since then. Normally, after writing starting such a thread yesterday, I'd feel it important to watch the thread in an effort to reply in a timely fashion to discussion generated by something I said. I was going to be unable to do that in this case, thus I wanted to warn people that I would reply when I could, but it might not be in a timely fashion. I suppose I could have waited until Monday to write the first post, but I felt it important to write it when it was still fresh to me.

I'm sorry I didn't feel like canceling my weekend plans. If it makes you feel any better, I've been neglecting my girlfriend and the friends we're visiting for the last hour or so for your benefit, as I felt it important to reply to your post when I saw it.

I do think waiting until Monday would've been for the best. When you start a thread like this and then leave it doesn't help matters. I'm glad to see you came back and responded, however.

But then you get rude with a comment like "I'm sorry I didn't feel like canceling my weekend plans." No one asked you to. I most certainly didn't. "I've been neglecting my girlfriend and the friends we're visiting for the last hour or so for your benefit" My benefit? Again, no one asked you to. See, it's posts like this that makes this whole thing come off as disingenuous. You say you want to help, but you make posts that seem accusatory, you more or less want us to put one of our staffers in his place by not letting him discuss in non news threads, it seems, and then you make snide comments such as these when I brought up a legitimate point.

If people have a problem, they're more than welcome to voice it, but they should discuss it with us, instead of threads like these. You can make threads, but at least be around to fully discuss it, and have an open mind. You ask the same of us, we ask the same of you.

I did voice it. You attacked me for doing so. I also didn't know that we were forbidden from posting concerns to the forum without first clearing it with a moderator. I'll keep that in mind in the future. And I shall also keep in mind that if I post something here, that apparently forbids me from having any life beyond then continually looking at these forums for the next week.

(Edited to resolve a few minor formatting errors. No content changed.)

You were never attacked. Not once. No one said you were forbidden from posting concerns. Not once. I said ranty and angry. You could've made your point/asked questions without making us sound so dubious. And here is what I said:

At least stick around and defend your argument when we counter it. At least give us the chance to do just that. This seems rather unfair and very disappointing.

If people have a problem, they're more than welcome to voice it, but they should discuss it with us, instead of threads like these. You can make threads, but at least be around to fully discuss it, and have an open mind. You ask the same of us, we ask the same of you.

I should've clarified the "threads like these" part. That's my fault. I tried to with the bolded part, and failed. What I meant by "like these" is threads like this with an accusatory tone that comes across as angry, when the same thread could be made with valid points and a less aggressive tone.

Anyway, I'm not angry with you, I'm sorry if I came across as such and I certainly didn't have the intention of making you feel like you weren't being heard or that your point of view wasn't important. We will discuss the issues mentioned here and see what we can do with them.

[Yotsuyasan]

Autobot032, thank you for that last post. I feel there are perhaps a few things we're talking cross purpose on, and not quite understanding each other on, but over all I feel better now than I do after your earlier post.

Thank you for any apologies you offered. And for any offence I may have unintentionally caused with any of my words, I would like to offer similar apologies. My intent here was to try and open dialogue, not to cause strife.

And if any of my concerns are taken into consideration, then whatever the result I am content that at least it was thought about.

[Autobot032]

Autobot032, thank you for that last post. I feel there are perhaps a few things we're talking cross purpose on, and not quite understanding each other on, but over all I feel better now than I do after your earlier post.

Thank you for any apologies you offered. And for any offence I may have unintentionally caused with any of my words, I would like to offer similar apologies. My intent here was to try and open dialogue, not to cause strife.

And if any of my concerns are taken into consideration, then whatever the result I am content that at least it was thought about.

Thank you.

[Rated X]

And if MLP stuff pops up in TF related threads, you use the "Report this Post" button to bring it to the attention of staff membmers so we can step in and get it back on track.

If MLP stuff pops up in General Discussion, suck it up Princess and ignore it.

Like I said, you carry your anti-Hasbro/pro-3P stance from thread to thread, Bronies have nothing on you.

MLP seems to be very touchy on here. People seem to use Hasbro as an alibi as to why it's ok to post MLP on Transformers sites. Just because the company that owns the Transformers franchise created it, doesn't mean every other Hasbro franchise is a home run. Some things were meant to stay buried in the 80's retro graveyard.

On my avid support for 3rd parties, all I can say is they are the spawn of Hasbro's own decisions. I never said Hasbro wasn't successful with their kiddie venues. I'm just not in denial that 3rd parties control the hobby aspect of our hobby, not Hasbro. If third parties hadn't filled so many gaps on classics shelves in the last 3 years, Hasbro wouldn't be investing as much in G1 as they do now. 3rd parties were a real reality check for Hasbro. Basically they learned that they cant hide history in their vault of copyrights. Use it or lose it...

[Burn]

MLP seems to be very touchy on here. People seem to use Hasbro as an alibi as to why it's ok to post MLP on Transformers sites. Just because the company that owns the Transformers franchise created it, doesn't mean every other Hasbro franchise is a home run. Some things were meant to stay buried in the 80's retro graveyard.

Feel free to pm me ten examples from ten different threads about this apparent MLP plague that has you so upset.

Because I for one don't see it, probably because people aren't using the "Report this Post" button.

[Rated X]

MLP seems to be very touchy on here. People seem to use Hasbro as an alibi as to why it's ok to post MLP on Transformers sites. Just because the company that owns the Transformers franchise created it, doesn't mean every other Hasbro franchise is a home run. Some things were meant to stay buried in the 80's retro graveyard.

Feel free to pm me ten examples from ten different threads about this apparent MLP plague that has you so upset.

Because I for one don't see it, probably because people aren't using the "Report this Post" button.

For me the plague isn't so much the number of posts. It's the fact that if anyone says something negative about MLP on a transformers website, they get scorned. It's very disturbing. Notice how somebody else injected MLP into this thread, not me. I understand he was just saying I should practice what I preach when I say "ignore it". But he took the most annoying extreme in the Transformers fandom that cant possibly be ignored and used it as an example.

[Burn]

Actually it CAN be ignored.

I know many people are now ignoring YOU because of your anti-Hasbro stance, and as I've said numerous times, your rants are more in number than MLP stuff.

So if people can ignore you, then I'm sure you can learn to ignore MLP stuff.

Back to the discussion of KO reporting. Anyone else have stuff to add/suggest?

[Rated X]

Actually it CAN be ignored.

I know many people are now ignoring YOU because of your anti-Hasbro stance, and as I've said numerous times, your rants are more in number than MLP stuff.

So if people can ignore you, then I'm sure you can learn to ignore MLP stuff.

Back to the discussion of KO reporting. Anyone else have stuff to add/suggest?

Im sorry, I'm not blind. It's one thing to read their comments. But when you actually have seen a "Bronie" in the flesh, that memory stays frozen in your head for life. Especially when he asks the Botcon Hasbro panel why cant they make more MLP toys.



If you want some advice on reporting KO's get rid of the "buyer beware" caption and change it to "KO Alert". One important aspect of journalism is to be neutral and refrain from biases. Just report the news and let the reader choose a side.

[megatronus]

Motion to declare Rated X a KO, as he is a full-scale reproduction of a TF fan, but has no affiliation with Hasbro or Takara.

"KO Alert".

Indeed!

[njb902]

Actually it CAN be ignored.

I know many people are now ignoring YOU because of your anti-Hasbro stance, and as I've said numerous times, your rants are more in number than MLP stuff.

So if people can ignore you, then I'm sure you can learn to ignore MLP stuff.

Back to the discussion of KO reporting. Anyone else have stuff to add/suggest?

Im sorry, I'm not blind. It's one thing to read their comments. But when you actually have seen a "Bronie" in the flesh, that memory stays frozen in your head for life. Especially when he asks the Botcon Hasbro panel why cant they make more MLP toys.



If you want some advice on reporting KO's get rid of the "buyer beware" caption and change it to "KO Alert". One important aspect of journalism is to be neutral and refrain from biases. Just report the news and let the reader choose a side.

So what about the fans of MLP and Transformers who are not bronies? Do they just not matter?

[Arctorro]

Motion to declare Rated X a KO, as he is a full-scale reproduction of a TF fan, but has no affiliation with Hasbro or Takara.

"KO Alert".

Indeed!

I second this motion!

[Rated X]

Actually it CAN be ignored.

I know many people are now ignoring YOU because of your anti-Hasbro stance, and as I've said numerous times, your rants are more in number than MLP stuff.

So if people can ignore you, then I'm sure you can learn to ignore MLP stuff.

Back to the discussion of KO reporting. Anyone else have stuff to add/suggest?

Im sorry, I'm not blind. It's one thing to read their comments. But when you actually have seen a "Bronie" in the flesh, that memory stays frozen in your head for life. Especially when he asks the Botcon Hasbro panel why cant they make more MLP toys.



If you want some advice on reporting KO's get rid of the "buyer beware" caption and change it to "KO Alert". One important aspect of journalism is to be neutral and refrain from biases. Just report the news and let the reader choose a side.

So what about the fans of MLP and Transformers who are not bronies? Do they just not matter?

Are you referring to "In the Closet" bronies ? Why would I be bothered by someone on a Transformers website who keeps their MLP fetish to themselves ? That's what Ive been calling for, so I got no problem with those guys. It's the flamboyant ones that shove MLP down all our throats and use Hasbro their excuse that disgust me...

[Yotsuyasan]

Im sorry, I'm not blind. It's one thing to read their comments. But when you actually have seen a "Bronie" in the flesh, that memory stays frozen in your head for life. Especially when he asks the Botcon Hasbro panel why cant they make more MLP toys.

I am hesitant to respond to this part, as it is straying ridiculously off of the topic of my thread... But if I may play devil's advocate for a moment, even as someone that dislikes MLP myself, I'd say that from a certain point of view, they are more relevant to Transformers then any third party product or knock off travesty.

After all, they are sibling Hasbro products, and while not as strong as the Transformers / GI Joe connection, there has been cross pollination between the two properties. Heck, Pinkie Pie appeared in the first Michael Bay film.

If you want some advice on reporting KO's get rid of the "buyer beware" caption and change it to "KO Alert". One important aspect of journalism is to be neutral and refrain from biases. Just report the news and let the reader choose a side.

In an ideal world, journalistic impartiality would exist. Sadly, we live in the real world. And I would have to give Seibertron.com credit for, when they have a bias, being up front about it.

Doesn't mean I agree with everything... I'd love to see reporting on third party stuff. It ain't going to happen, and I live with that. I'd also like to see less hypocrisy concerning paid sponsors: with such an established anti-third party bias, strange to see them being prominently mentioned in the sponsored articles from retailers. But again, real world here. I'll live with it. (Might be nice if such articles were more transparent... Maybe instead of a headline of, "Retailer X Newsletter," they could say, "Sponsored Post: News From Retailer X." But that is another discussion.)

So Seibertron.com has an anti-KO bias. That isn't going to change because of false ideals of journalistic impartiality. And that bias, I would support. In fact, I started this thread out of concern that that bias might be being unintentionally eroded. Rather then saying, "Buyer Beware" is too bias as you suggest, I maintain that only saying that is not biased enough, and such news articles should also contain a standardized anti-KO disclaimer.

Something along the lines of, "Photos and links contained within this news article are for informational purposes only, to educate our readers about the existence of knock off products so that they may better avoid purchasing them. Any views contained within the attached discussion thread are those of the individual posters. Seibertron.com does not endorse or encourage the purchase of any products not made under the authority of Hasbro or Takara."

[Rated X]

Motion to declare Rated X a KO, as he is a full-scale reproduction of a TF fan, but has no affiliation with Hasbro or Takara.

"KO Alert".

Indeed!

I second this motion!

Seeing how were all on the "Unofficial Transformers 3rd Party and Knock Offs Toys" forum section, all of you are just as guilty of not supporting Hasbro. Hasbro/Takara would like you guys to not even visit these forums and only acknowledge the existence of THEIR products. If you own one 3rd party product (even a measly Dr. Wu sword) you are supporting a cause that is flat out anti-Hasbro/Takara. So all of you 3rd party collectors who mock me for supporting KO's are a bunch of hypocrites. You don the "Hasbro Badge of Honor" proudly like a bunch of boy scouts, but then turn around and buy products from companies that flat out steal from the corporation you pledge allegiance to. The only thing I pledge allegiance to is a really awesome era during the 80's known as G1. As far as how to homage G1 best and who should do it, I’m in favor of a free for all.

[Gauntlet101010]

There's no such thing as bias-free reporting. Everyone everywhere has a point of view. I don't see why it'd be better for him to pretend to be unbiased.

As far as KO reporting goes, I think it'd be a good idea to have some sort of guide on the site that helps people tell the difference. In the past I've looked for those kinds of things and found images have disappeared after some time has passed. But it's been some times since I looked too, maybe some other site has done this by now.

[Rated X]

Im sorry, I'm not blind. It's one thing to read their comments. But when you actually have seen a "Bronie" in the flesh, that memory stays frozen in your head for life. Especially when he asks the Botcon Hasbro panel why cant they make more MLP toys.

I am hesitant to respond to this part, as it is straying ridiculously off of the topic of my thread... But if I may play devil's advocate for a moment, even as someone that dislikes MLP myself, I'd say that from a certain point of view, they are more relevant to Transformers then any third party product or knock off travesty.

After all, they are sibling Hasbro products, and while not as strong as the Transformers / GI Joe connection, there has been cross pollination between the two properties. Heck, Pinkie Pie appeared in the first Michael Bay film.

If you want some advice on reporting KO's get rid of the "buyer beware" caption and change it to "KO Alert". One important aspect of journalism is to be neutral and refrain from biases. Just report the news and let the reader choose a side.

In an ideal world, journalistic impartiality would exist. Sadly, we live in the real world. And I would have to give Seibertron.com credit for, when they have a bias, being up front about it.

Doesn't mean I agree with everything... I'd love to see reporting on third party stuff. It ain't going to happen, and I live with that. I'd also like to see less hypocrisy concerning paid sponsors: with such an established anti-third party bias, strange to see them being prominently mentioned in the sponsored articles from retailers. But again, real world here. I'll live with it. (Might be nice if such articles were more transparent... Maybe instead of a headline of, "Retailer X Newsletter," they could say, "Sponsored Post: News From Retailer X." But that is another discussion.)

So Seibertron.com has an anti-KO bias. That isn't going to change because of false ideals of journalistic impartiality. And that bias, I would support. In fact, I started this thread out of concern that that bias might be being unintentionally eroded. Rather then saying, "Buyer Beware" is too bias as you suggest, I maintain that only saying that is not biased enough, and such news articles should also contain a standardized anti-KO disclaimer.

Something along the lines of, "Photos and links contained within this news article are for informational purposes only, to educate our readers about the existence of knock off products so that they may better avoid purchasing them. Any views contained within the attached discussion thread are those of the individual posters. Seibertron.com does not endorse or encourage the purchase of any products not made under the authority of Hasbro or Takara."

Well It’s nice to see we have one thing in common….we both dislike MLP.

I missed “Pinkie Pie” in the 1st installment of the Michael Bay saga so please enlighten me on where to find that one. Unless you’re talking about pre-Transformers Michael Bay produced films I haven’t seen.

If you look hard enough you can find a small link between almost any two toy lines. Sure TF and MLP are both Hasbro franchises, but that’s where the official links end. Everything else is fan made. And yes a comic book artist who chooses to do a limited edition convention cover is just another fan. An IDW employee is not a Hasbro employee.

So we get this:



While it’s not exactly a face balm, Optimus is scratching his head in total confusion like WTF is this? My guess is Optimus expression is meant to portray the reaction of people just like me who hate MLP. The fact that “Pinky Pie” is wearing an Optimus costume is probably the artist’s interpretation that MLP fans love Transformers and are going to keep crashing Transformers conventions no matter what the rest of the fandom thinks. At least that’s how I interpret it. Take it how you want it, it’s still a fan made link. It’s just happens that this “fan” is talented enough to hold a job with IDW and uses his position to promote his views.

Back on topic,

I agree with you that this site sends mixed signals by taking an anti-3rd party stance but advertising the biggest 3rd party dealers in the game. Sponsors have contributed a lot of money to this site I imagine. I do know this site is how Ryan makes his money and he has no say on what his sponsors sell. In the early days of 3rd party products he would support them and even make photo galleries of them. But as the 3rd party scene exploded, I think he did what he thought was best for business from a legal standpoint. I honestly believe Ryan wants to strengthen his relationship with Hasbro and TFCC so he made the decision. It just came at an awkward time because his staff and a good chunk of his web traffic all support 3rd parties. They don’t have a business to run like he does, they’re just fans. But I can understand why he hates KO’s. He has all the originals of some very rare Transformers so I imagine he doesn’t like how some people take the easy way out with vintage G1 stuff. Despite our different views, he is a really cool guy in person.

In my personal opinion the only difference between a high quality KO and an Encore reissue is who owns the factory that made it. At the end of the day it’s still not vintage. By purchasing an Encore reissue, you are supporting Hasbro/Takara. But will Hasbro/Takara take your money and invest it to bring out more G1 goodness? Or will they invest it to bring out an extensive wealth of Bumblebee repaints? Keep waiting for an Encore Scorponok. I’m sure it’s on the back burner for 2018. Until then the KO provides people who ARENT rich a viable alternative. If it makes you feel better, I didn’t buy one. I’m done with vintage G1 figures. I only collect classics themed figures. If CHMS decides to start pumping out Botcon 2010 G2 Sideswipes or the green “Unicron of Light”, Ill be the first one to open my wallet.

[Rated X]

There's no such thing as bias-free reporting. Everyone everywhere has a point of view. I don't see why it'd be better for him to pretend to be unbiased.

As far as KO reporting goes, I think it'd be a good idea to have some sort of guide on the site that helps people tell the difference. In the past I've looked for those kinds of things and found images have disappeared after some time has passed. But it's been some times since I looked too, maybe some other site has done this by now.

The problem is that in order to create an extensive gallery on how to tell the difference, someone actually has to buy the KO. You're not going to find comparison shots of the KO MP line because the originals were widely available. I doubt there's an anti-KO guy out there who's willing to take one for the team and buy doubles of every figure. The economy is bad right now. The KO MP line's intended target is people on a budget, not hardcore collectors. If they wanted to target hardcore collectors, they would KO rare figures, hence the dino-cassettes. KOing figures that the original only costs $70.00 isn't really a threat to collectors. Unless of course you missed out on the initial pre-orders. The MP line was so widely available online, who could have missed it ? Sure the prices were inflated a bit on the 2nd runs, but the originals were always out there from reputable dealers if you wanted them that badly.

The KO Scorponok gallery appears to be done by a good samaritan. Or maybe it was done by the KO company itself because they never intended for it to be passed off as vintage. They might just want to cash in on the fact that the encore line is moving way too slow for people who don't care about owning vintage.

[Yotsuyasan]

I missed “Pinkie Pie” in the 1st installment of the Michael Bay saga so
please enlighten me on where to find that one.

Pinkie Pie was in the arms of the little girl whose pool Optimus crawled out of just after arriving on Earth. And if anyone is wondering how I can say I dislike MLP, but know that character's name... I got it from the Transformers Wiki.



As for your calling the comic book cover merely fan art, obviously working for a company in an official capacity and being a fan of that company's output are not mutually exclusive things. If this same artist had drawn that artwork only to put it out on something like Deviant Art or a personal blog, than yes, it would just be fan art. But when that piece of art is printed as a cover to a comic licensed by Hasbro, then it is official artwork, weather the artist is a fan or just some 9-5 schmoe who could care less about either Transformers or MLP. If either Hasbro or IDW didn't want an artist pushing an alleged Bronie agenda, they could have withheld approval of the cover and not printed it.

As for the more on topic stuff... I suppose it is nice to know we can almost sort of agree on some things, even if we will forever be vehemently at each other's throats on the whole KO issue. (And on weather supporting Hasbro and third parties, but not KOs, is reconcilable.) Sometimes, you almost come off as all right.

[Gauntlet101010]

There's no such thing as bias-free reporting. Everyone everywhere has a point of view. I don't see why it'd be better for him to pretend to be unbiased.

As far as KO reporting goes, I think it'd be a good idea to have some sort of guide on the site that helps people tell the difference. In the past I've looked for those kinds of things and found images have disappeared after some time has passed. But it's been some times since I looked too, maybe some other site has done this by now.

The problem is that in order to create an extensive gallery on how to tell the difference, someone actually has to buy the KO. You're not going to find comparison shots of the KO MP line because the originals were widely available. I doubt there's an anti-KO guy out there who's willing to take one for the team and buy doubles of every figure. The economy is bad right now. The KO MP line's intended target is people on a budget, not hardcore collectors. If they wanted to target hardcore collectors, they would KO rare figures, hence the dino-cassettes. KOing figures that the original only costs $70.00 isn't really a threat to collectors. Unless of course you missed out on the initial pre-orders. The MP line was so widely available online, who could have missed it ? Sure the prices were inflated a bit on the 2nd runs, but the originals were always out there from reputable dealers if you wanted them that bad.

The KO Scorponok gallery appears to be done by a good samaritan. Or maybe it was done by the KO company itself because they never intended for it to be passed off a vintage. They might just want to cash in on the fact that the encore line is moving way too slow for people who don't care about owning vintage.

There're usually pictures online showing the differences shortly after a KO is out. A good example is the KO of the MP tapes. All Seibs (and his staff) would really have to do is save the pictures and, maybe, add in comments. As for others, given Seib's popularity I'm sure he could get it done if he wanted to. Even someone who's pro-KO wouldn't want people to be fooled into buying something they didn't want.

[Jelze Bunnycat]

If I may chime in...

I see reporting about Knock-Off as somewhat of a necessary evil. Necessary as in the collecting community needs to be made aware of any fakes currently being produced, so they are armed against ill-reputed dealers trying to pass them off as the real deal. Evil, as in those who actually don't mind having a cheaper imitation of (often) lesser quality will jump for joy, instigating the fury of Hasbro/TakaraTomy-purists who'd rather see them and the fakes gone.
By no means should we stop warning the populace about fakes, it's our duty, cheesy and cliche as it sounds. Simply warning that they're out there, optionally with illustrated comparisons, will suffice. Mentioning where they're found is a double-edged sword, given the first paragraph. Maybe tell them to stick with trusted and reputable dealers (like the site sponsors) if people wish to avoid them like the plague?

[megatronus]

Seeing how were all on the "Unofficial Transformers 3rd Party and Knock Offs Toys" forum section, all of you are just as guilty of not supporting Hasbro.

Visiting a forum for non-HasTak product is not the same as not supporting HasTak product. FAIL.

Hasbro/Takara would like you guys to not even visit these forums and only acknowledge the existence of THEIR products.

Do you work for HasTak? What's that? You don't? Therefore, you cannot know what forum or behaviors they do or do not want me to participate in. FAIL.

If you own one 3rd party product (even a measly Dr. Wu sword) you are supporting a cause that is flat out anti-Hasbro/Takara.

Accessories and add-on products that are predicated on you actually owning a HasTak product necessarily indicates that the person who buys them is not supporting an anti-HasTak cause. Just the opposite. FAIL.

So all of you 3rd party collectors who mock me for supporting KO's are a bunch of hypocrites.

3rd Party products are on a basic level an entirely different category than KOs. FAIL.

You don the "Hasbro Badge of Honor" proudly like a bunch of boy scouts, but then turn around and buy products from companies that flat out steal from the corporation you pledge allegiance to.

Nope - that's you, the avid KO buyer. FAIL.

The only thing I pledge allegiance to is a really awesome era during the 80's known as G1. As far as how to homage G1 best and who should do it, I’m in favor of a free for all.

If you actually pledge allegiance to G1, then you should respect the products that actually came out of that era, as well as the architects of that era. But you don't.

FAIL.

[megatronus]

Motion to declare Rated X a KO, as he is a full-scale reproduction of a TF fan, but has no affiliation with Hasbro or Takara.

"KO Alert".

Indeed!

I second this motion!

Seeing how were all on the "Unofficial Transformers 3rd Party and Knock Offs Toys" forum section, all of you are just as guilty of not supporting Hasbro. Hasbro/Takara would like you guys to not even visit these forums and only acknowledge the existence of THEIR products. If you own one 3rd party product (even a measly Dr. Wu sword) you are supporting a cause that is flat out anti-Hasbro/Takara. So all of you 3rd party collectors who mock me for supporting KO's are a bunch of hypocrites. You don the "Hasbro Badge of Honor" proudly like a bunch of boy scouts, but then turn around and buy products from companies that flat out steal from the corporation you pledge allegiance to. The only thing I pledge allegiance to is a really awesome era during the 80's known as G1. As far as how to homage G1 best and who should do it, I’m in favor of a free for all.

FYI, this original post of mine was just poking fun. My takedown response post to your statement, less so.

[Yotsuyasan]

Maybe tell them to stick with trusted and reputable dealers (like the site sponsors) if people wish to avoid them like the plague?

Well, depending on how picky you want to be, even sticking with site sponsors can be tricky. Some (including Ryan, which I suppose is the most important factor as far as this discussion goes) don't see much difference between third parties and KOs, so this may not matter... but if you want to avoid KOs of third party products, then Robot Kingdom is not for you.

And while it seems to have been an isolated incident, I seem to recall (my memory is hazy and I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong) that even the venerable BBTS once accidentally purchased a shipment of KO Encore Metroplexes. To their credit, they were up front about it and didn't lie to their customers... but BBTS still sold them. That might not happen now, since BBTS seems to have a closer relationship with Hasbro and I doubt they'd want to risk that... but I'm just pointing out that one cannot say that even the site sponsors are always 100% KO free.

[Burn]

THE MLP DISCUSSION IS OVER!

THIS THREAD GETS BACK ONTO THE TOPIC OF KO REPORTING NOW AND STAYS THERE.

If you want to discuss Ponies, go and start another **** thread about it instead of filling a thread that's actually trying to improve the site.

[Yotsuyasan]

Thank you, Burn. And apologies for the bit I played in it, to the detriment of a thread I started, no less.

Oh, and sorry for not ever doing the implied promised reply to your earlier post. By the time I got back to where I could regularly reply, it seems that things had well moved on, and anything I'd have said had either been said by others, or had been said by me in replies to other posts.