Transformers and More @ The Seibertron Store

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Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:Perhaps wordings could be handled slightly better, but what is it exactly that you demand of us?
I demand nothing. This is a privately run website, provided to me free of charge, and moderated by volunteers who should be applauded for their efforts. My post was intended as suggestions, to generate a discourse on something I personally see as a problem, so that the powers at be might perhaps think on the issue and see if it is a problem, and if it is what might be done differently or better.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:Should we not report those fakes? Should we not help save a fellow collector/fan from falling into the trap of being duped into buying a fake at real prices?
I never said not to report them. I just questioned if the way they have recently been being reported might be a little unintentionally clear as to the intent of such reports. Particularly the recent threads reporting Masterpiece knock offs, which I could have perhaps specified, but those have mostly been reported by one person and I was trying not to look like I was singling one person out.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:And as Burn said, closing a news topic is a no go. So, again, our hands are tied. So, again I ask, what would you have us do?
I don't see why in these cases, an exception can't be made about creating a news topic connected to a locked thread. I never said people cannot then discuss the products, or even where to buy them. They can create a separate discussion thread which would then not be visible from a news story linked from the front page of the website.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:We are open to suggestions. Feel free to give us ideas.
I am glad you are open to suggestions. And I thought I already gave you my ideas. Alas, when you expanded your post to reply in more detail, you seemed to display a vitriol that to my eyes betrays the immediately above quote.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:Yotsuyasan wrote:There's multiple threads floating around lately whose main purpose seems to be mentioning knock offs exist, posting multiple pictures of them showing how good they look, and posting links to where you can buy them. And it really makes me wonder if these threads are truly meant to warn against them rather than to inform about them to less then scrupulous Transformers collectors.
First of all, there's no need to disparage our good name by making conspiracy theories that shouldn't exist. We are not in the business of selling 3rd party or KOs, nor do we promote them. That's the long and short of it.
I suppose the above bit of mine, removed from the context of the rest of my post, does seem a bit accusatory of the powers that be in general. If you recall, much of my point centered around how the way things are currently done is unintentionally promoting knock off product.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:Yotsuyasan wrote:Is there a need for these threads to include galleries of photos illustrative of how identical they are to the original toy? If we know what the original looks like, surely we'd get the idea. I'd suggest photos are only necessary if they specifically highlight differences between the original and the knock off that can be useful in telling them apart and making the knock off easier for legitimate Transformers collectors to avoid.
Yes, there is a need to include galleries. The Scorponok report is a perfect example. We showed images that had both the original and the KO. In those pictures, you could clearly see a build quality difference. However, to the untrained eye, if they hadn't had those side by side, they could've easily been fooled by the KO. We didn't go into a full gallery of the figure itself. Then, you might have some weight to your argument, but as of right now? This part of it? No. You're just flat out wrong.
Thank you for mentioning the Scoponok report. That is a perfect example of one done right, and if every knock off report was in that way I would be a lot happier.
On the other hand, we have stories like this, which are a photo of the product (that does nothing to distinguish it from the original), and includes a price and a link to where it can be purchased. And other then brief usage of the word, "beware," nothing to discourage against it or say why knock offs are bad. And then, the news story is followed by forum posts of people talking about how they are going to be buying it.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Other more recent forum threads by the same poster seem even less informative. Yesterday morning I saw a new one by him about another new Masterpiece knock off that was literally just a gallery of photos of the knock offs. Some had presumably the originals next to them in the photos, but without accompanying text or close up photos of potential detail differences, they came off to me more as, "They're almost exactly like the originals!" rather than, "Here is how you can tell them apart, so you can know which ones to avoid." Granted, this post has not been made the subject of a front page news article, but given that a precedent had been set with that happening to one of his previous such posts, seeing that made me nervous and inspired what I wrote yesterday morning.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Back to ones that are made news articles, however: You asked for suggestions? Fine, here is an additional one above the ones I've already provided: such news stories should have a standardized disclaimer attached to them saying why bootlegs are bad, and reinforcing that the information provided about them is for educational purposes only.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:Yotsuyasan wrote:Also, is there a need for links? It has been suggested that they are necessary as proof of existence. Um... okay. Was there ever a case of such a knock off being reported and the reporter being a big fat liar? If the knock off exists, just say so. I'll believe you.
If it is only a rumor of a knock off, say that too. I'll at least know to be on guard for any "too good to be true" deals. And if rumor becomes fact later, you can just give us an update then. But I don't need links.
Yes, it is important. 1.) We can provide proof, so we're not called liars. 2.) We can point out exactly who the seller(s) is/are so you can AVOID them. 3.) Just because you believe doesn't mean all will. I'm sorry, but we do our best to cater to everyone, we can't make just you happy. (This is not me being a jerk, I'm stating an actual fact. It is literally impossible for us to do.)
Well, as I asked, had there ever been a case of such a knock off being reported and the reporter being a big fat liar? And as for avoiding them:Yotsuyasan wrote:One might suggest that links are necessary to know which stores to avoid. Just tell me which stores you've seen them at. Providing a link is unnecessary.
If it is important to have one link of proof in the news story, I already conceded that I'd not vehemently argue that point. But then we come back to where I feel that such news stories shouldn't have active forum threads attached. Those fill up with further links. Many of which will end up visible from the news story. If they were only visible in the forum thread, fine. But that would involve having a separate discussion and (locked) news thread, which you said is not on the table.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:Every thing we have, you tend to throw back in our faces. It's almost like you have it out for us. I don't know why. We've been good to the community, to the fandom, so, I'm not sure where this is coming from. I don't know why you're so angry with us. (And it does come across as anger.)
I'm not quite sure how to respond to this part. Where am I throwing things in your face? You make it sound like I am personally accusing you of something. I tried very hard to make it sound that my main concerns were with some of what I was allowed in discussion threads about knock offs, and the potential for that to accidentally be visible on the main page linked news articles if those threads are directly attached to them. I was trying to see if there was any sort of consensus that it was a problem, offering some of my suggestions on what might be done differently if it is a problem, and then opening it up for discussion to see what others might have to say.
If anything, I don't understand your apparent anger towards me. If I have misinterpreted your tone, I apologize. But your post seems more like a counterattack towards me for an apparent inferred attack I never intended, then it does a reasoned reply.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:Links are so people can see who's selling and what. This way we can also report it to Hasbro. AND eBay. And it does work! We've had people tell us "Thank you, you saved me from buyer's remorse." And that makes us feel good.
Which it should. But are links on this website necessary to report things to Hasbro and eBay? And to warn people, are links necessary, or cannot you just post an unlinked list of offending stores? People who don't want them can then know to avoid that store, and people who do want them then need to put in a few extra steps rather then just clicking directly from here to there.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:Yotsuyasan wrote:At what point does a thread stop being warning and start being advertising?
At what point will you stop? At what point will you be happy? You are more than welcome here, you're a part of this community. But please, contribute, don't detract from it. Posting stuff like this, especially in this manner, doesn't help. You could've made the same point without being so angry and ranty. You could've found better way to touch base with us, rather than coming at us guns blazing.
And here is where it really feels like I am coming under attack from you. I am trying to contribute, yet you make me feel as if I am doing the opposite. I felt there was a problem, I explained my problem, and sought out the community to see if others might feel similarly or have any other views to contribute. Did I attack anyone personally? Did I say that anyone involved with the official workings of the website were intentionally and actively promoting knock off products?
I don't recall saying such things.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:We don't bite. We're nice people, you guys are more than welcome to ask us questions. But, please do so with respect.
I very much tried to. And most everyone else here seems to have replied to this thread in kind. I didn't feel it much from you, I fear.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:Yotsuyasan wrote:If it is advertising, I don't like it. But fine, whatever. At least present it as such, and stop pretending you are providing a service to legitimate collectors. And to those who decide what is news worthy of being on the front page, for the love of god stop presenting these threads as news.
It is not advertising. Not. Not. Not. We don't do that. We never report on accessories, or Shapeways, or anything 3rd party or KO on the main page. Never.
We only have a 3rd party forum so our regular members can discuss their love for those items. Allowing the people to discuss them is not the same as promoting them. Is not.
I was talking about the forum threads. Not the news posts. But since when the threads become the subject of news posts, they are then attached to them, that is where my problem lies. If the threads come off more as advertising (which they often do) they should not be attached to the news page. But since you said threads attached to news pages will never be locked, it becomes rather an inevitable problem. A Catch-22.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:Yotsuyasan wrote:If it is news, I'd suggest such threads should be subject to unusual restriction. Have the initial post end with a strong disclaimer against purchasing such things. At most one link to where one can be purchased (for informational purposes only) in the initial post, and no further such links in follow up posts. No photos in the thread unless they are specifically highlighting differences that can be used to tell the knock off from the legitimate product. I'd even suggest locking the threads after the first post, so that they exist as informational tools only and cannot be followed by ten posts of, "Awesome, thanks! I'm totally buying that! Screw Hasbro!" But if discussion is allowed, I'd suggest holding posters in these threads to the same heightened rules regarding images and links.
It IS news. Unusual restriction would require locking them after they've been posted. We will not do that. Won't.
We do post disclaimers. We'll work on wording them better, but we do post them.
We hold ALL posters to the same rules as you are held to. I don't know where you got the idea that certain individuals curry favor with us, but it's simply not true. Everyone is equal, not more or less than another.
Where did I ever say anyone is favored, or held to different standards? I suggested that if they are to be attached to front page news articles, the forum threads and posts within then should be moderated a bit more strictly. Reguardless of who posts in them. You. Me. Tom. Dick. Harry. A boy named Sue. Everyone. I never suggested special treatment was or should be given to specific posters.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:Yotsuyasan wrote:I fear I shall not be at my computer much this weekend, but I look forward to seeing what response this might generate and will chime in when I can.
Thank you.
Now see, this bothers me. I find this disingenuous. You go to the trouble of starting this thread, come across as angry and ranty, and then basically say you're taking a break for the weekend and you'll come back to see what's been said. To me, that seems to be of ill repute. At least stick around and defend your argument when we counter it. At least give us the chance to do just that. This seems rather unfair and very disappointing.
I had pre-existing plans this weekend, left home yesterday shortly after writing the initial post, and have only briefly had access to a computer since then. Normally, after writing starting such a thread yesterday, I'd feel it important to watch the thread in an effort to reply in a timely fashion to discussion generated by something I said. I was going to be unable to do that in this case, thus I wanted to warn people that I would reply when I could, but it might not be in a timely fashion. I suppose I could have waited until Monday to write the first post, but I felt it important to write it when it was still fresh to me.
I'm sorry I didn't feel like canceling my weekend plans. If it makes you feel any better, I've been neglecting my girlfriend and the friends we're visiting for the last hour or so for your benefit, as I felt it important to reply to your post when I saw it.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032 wrote:If people have a problem, they're more than welcome to voice it, but they should discuss it with us, instead of threads like these. You can make threads, but at least be around to fully discuss it, and have an open mind. You ask the same of us, we ask the same of you.
I did voice it. You attacked me for doing so. I also didn't know that we were forbidden from posting concerns to the forum without first clearing it with a moderator. I'll keep that in mind in the future. And I shall also keep in mind that if I post something here, that apparently forbids me from having any life beyond then continually looking at these forums for the next week.
(Edited to resolve a few minor formatting errors. No content changed.)
Autobot032 wrote:At least stick around and defend your argument when we counter it. At least give us the chance to do just that. This seems rather unfair and very disappointing.
If people have a problem, they're more than welcome to voice it, but they should discuss it with us, instead of threads like these. You can make threads, but at least be around to fully discuss it, and have an open mind. You ask the same of us, we ask the same of you.
Yotsuyasan wrote:Autobot032, thank you for that last post. I feel there are perhaps a few things we're talking cross purpose on, and not quite understanding each other on, but over all I feel better now than I do after your earlier post.
Thank you for any apologies you offered. And for any offence I may have unintentionally caused with any of my words, I would like to offer similar apologies. My intent here was to try and open dialogue, not to cause strife.
And if any of my concerns are taken into consideration, then whatever the result I am content that at least it was thought about.
Burn wrote:And if MLP stuff pops up in TF related threads, you use the "Report this Post" button to bring it to the attention of staff membmers so we can step in and get it back on track.
If MLP stuff pops up in General Discussion, suck it up Princess and ignore it.
Like I said, you carry your anti-Hasbro/pro-3P stance from thread to thread, Bronies have nothing on you.
Rated X wrote:MLP seems to be very touchy on here. People seem to use Hasbro as an alibi as to why it's ok to post MLP on Transformers sites. Just because the company that owns the Transformers franchise created it, doesn't mean every other Hasbro franchise is a home run. Some things were meant to stay buried in the 80's retro graveyard.
Burn wrote:Rated X wrote:MLP seems to be very touchy on here. People seem to use Hasbro as an alibi as to why it's ok to post MLP on Transformers sites. Just because the company that owns the Transformers franchise created it, doesn't mean every other Hasbro franchise is a home run. Some things were meant to stay buried in the 80's retro graveyard.
Feel free to pm me ten examples from ten different threads about this apparent MLP plague that has you so upset.
Because I for one don't see it, probably because people aren't using the "Report this Post" button.
Burn wrote:Actually it CAN be ignored.
I know many people are now ignoring YOU because of your anti-Hasbro stance, and as I've said numerous times, your rants are more in number than MLP stuff.
So if people can ignore you, then I'm sure you can learn to ignore MLP stuff.
Back to the discussion of KO reporting. Anyone else have stuff to add/suggest?
Rated X wrote:"KO Alert".
Cobotron wrote:Hey! You seemed to have attracted a wild Megatronus. They're hard to find, but boy are they fun when you catch one!
Rated X wrote:Burn wrote:Actually it CAN be ignored.
I know many people are now ignoring YOU because of your anti-Hasbro stance, and as I've said numerous times, your rants are more in number than MLP stuff.
So if people can ignore you, then I'm sure you can learn to ignore MLP stuff.
Back to the discussion of KO reporting. Anyone else have stuff to add/suggest?
Im sorry, I'm not blind. It's one thing to read their comments. But when you actually have seen a "Bronie" in the flesh, that memory stays frozen in your head for life. Especially when he asks the Botcon Hasbro panel why cant they make more MLP toys.![]()
If you want some advice on reporting KO's get rid of the "buyer beware" caption and change it to "KO Alert". One important aspect of journalism is to be neutral and refrain from biases. Just report the news and let the reader choose a side.
megatronus wrote:Motion to declare Rated X a KO, as he is a full-scale reproduction of a TF fan, but has no affiliation with Hasbro or Takara.Rated X wrote:"KO Alert".
Indeed!
william-james88 wrote:So that would also be the case for Predaking, who is also six members.
njb902 wrote:Rated X wrote:Burn wrote:Actually it CAN be ignored.
I know many people are now ignoring YOU because of your anti-Hasbro stance, and as I've said numerous times, your rants are more in number than MLP stuff.
So if people can ignore you, then I'm sure you can learn to ignore MLP stuff.
Back to the discussion of KO reporting. Anyone else have stuff to add/suggest?
Im sorry, I'm not blind. It's one thing to read their comments. But when you actually have seen a "Bronie" in the flesh, that memory stays frozen in your head for life. Especially when he asks the Botcon Hasbro panel why cant they make more MLP toys.![]()
If you want some advice on reporting KO's get rid of the "buyer beware" caption and change it to "KO Alert". One important aspect of journalism is to be neutral and refrain from biases. Just report the news and let the reader choose a side.
So what about the fans of MLP and Transformers who are not bronies? Do they just not matter?
Rated X wrote:Im sorry, I'm not blind. It's one thing to read their comments. But when you actually have seen a "Bronie" in the flesh, that memory stays frozen in your head for life. Especially when he asks the Botcon Hasbro panel why cant they make more MLP toys.![]()
Rated X wrote:If you want some advice on reporting KO's get rid of the "buyer beware" caption and change it to "KO Alert". One important aspect of journalism is to be neutral and refrain from biases. Just report the news and let the reader choose a side.
Arctorro wrote:megatronus wrote:Motion to declare Rated X a KO, as he is a full-scale reproduction of a TF fan, but has no affiliation with Hasbro or Takara.Rated X wrote:"KO Alert".
Indeed!![]()
I second this motion!
Yotsuyasan wrote:Rated X wrote:Im sorry, I'm not blind. It's one thing to read their comments. But when you actually have seen a "Bronie" in the flesh, that memory stays frozen in your head for life. Especially when he asks the Botcon Hasbro panel why cant they make more MLP toys.![]()
I am hesitant to respond to this part, as it is straying ridiculously off of the topic of my thread... But if I may play devil's advocate for a moment, even as someone that dislikes MLP myself, I'd say that from a certain point of view, they are more relevant to Transformers then any third party product or knock off travesty.
After all, they are sibling Hasbro products, and while not as strong as the Transformers / GI Joe connection, there has been cross pollination between the two properties. Heck, Pinkie Pie appeared in the first Michael Bay film.Rated X wrote:If you want some advice on reporting KO's get rid of the "buyer beware" caption and change it to "KO Alert". One important aspect of journalism is to be neutral and refrain from biases. Just report the news and let the reader choose a side.
In an ideal world, journalistic impartiality would exist. Sadly, we live in the real world. And I would have to give Seibertron.com credit for, when they have a bias, being up front about it.
Doesn't mean I agree with everything... I'd love to see reporting on third party stuff. It ain't going to happen, and I live with that. I'd also like to see less hypocrisy concerning paid sponsors: with such an established anti-third party bias, strange to see them being prominently mentioned in the sponsored articles from retailers. But again, real world here. I'll live with it. (Might be nice if such articles were more transparent... Maybe instead of a headline of, "Retailer X Newsletter," they could say, "Sponsored Post: News From Retailer X." But that is another discussion.)
So Seibertron.com has an anti-KO bias. That isn't going to change because of false ideals of journalistic impartiality. And that bias, I would support. In fact, I started this thread out of concern that that bias might be being unintentionally eroded. Rather then saying, "Buyer Beware" is too bias as you suggest, I maintain that only saying that is not biased enough, and such news articles should also contain a standardized anti-KO disclaimer.
Something along the lines of, "Photos and links contained within this news article are for informational purposes only, to educate our readers about the existence of knock off products so that they may better avoid purchasing them. Any views contained within the attached discussion thread are those of the individual posters. Seibertron.com does not endorse or encourage the purchase of any products not made under the authority of Hasbro or Takara."
Gauntlet101010 wrote:There's no such thing as bias-free reporting. Everyone everywhere has a point of view. I don't see why it'd be better for him to pretend to be unbiased.
As far as KO reporting goes, I think it'd be a good idea to have some sort of guide on the site that helps people tell the difference. In the past I've looked for those kinds of things and found images have disappeared after some time has passed. But it's been some times since I looked too, maybe some other site has done this by now.
Rated X wrote:I missed “Pinkie Pie” in the 1st installment of the Michael Bay saga so
please enlighten me on where to find that one.
Rated X wrote:Gauntlet101010 wrote:There's no such thing as bias-free reporting. Everyone everywhere has a point of view. I don't see why it'd be better for him to pretend to be unbiased.
As far as KO reporting goes, I think it'd be a good idea to have some sort of guide on the site that helps people tell the difference. In the past I've looked for those kinds of things and found images have disappeared after some time has passed. But it's been some times since I looked too, maybe some other site has done this by now.
The problem is that in order to create an extensive gallery on how to tell the difference, someone actually has to buy the KO. You're not going to find comparison shots of the KO MP line because the originals were widely available. I doubt there's an anti-KO guy out there who's willing to take one for the team and buy doubles of every figure. The economy is bad right now. The KO MP line's intended target is people on a budget, not hardcore collectors. If they wanted to target hardcore collectors, they would KO rare figures, hence the dino-cassettes. KOing figures that the original only costs $70.00 isn't really a threat to collectors. Unless of course you missed out on the initial pre-orders. The MP line was so widely available online, who could have missed it ? Sure the prices were inflated a bit on the 2nd runs, but the originals were always out there from reputable dealers if you wanted them that bad.
The KO Scorponok gallery appears to be done by a good samaritan. Or maybe it was done by the KO company itself because they never intended for it to be passed off a vintage. They might just want to cash in on the fact that the encore line is moving way too slow for people who don't care about owning vintage.
Visiting a forum for non-HasTak product is not the same as not supporting HasTak product. FAIL.Rated X wrote:Seeing how were all on the "Unofficial Transformers 3rd Party and Knock Offs Toys" forum section, all of you are just as guilty of not supporting Hasbro.
Do you work for HasTak? What's that? You don't? Therefore, you cannot know what forum or behaviors they do or do not want me to participate in. FAIL.Rated X wrote:Hasbro/Takara would like you guys to not even visit these forums and only acknowledge the existence of THEIR products.
Accessories and add-on products that are predicated on you actually owning a HasTak product necessarily indicates that the person who buys them is not supporting an anti-HasTak cause. Just the opposite. FAIL.Rated X wrote:If you own one 3rd party product (even a measly Dr. Wu sword) you are supporting a cause that is flat out anti-Hasbro/Takara.
3rd Party products are on a basic level an entirely different category than KOs. FAIL.Rated X wrote:So all of you 3rd party collectors who mock me for supporting KO's are a bunch of hypocrites.
Nope - that's you, the avid KO buyer. FAIL.Rated X wrote:You don the "Hasbro Badge of Honor" proudly like a bunch of boy scouts, but then turn around and buy products from companies that flat out steal from the corporation you pledge allegiance to.
If you actually pledge allegiance to G1, then you should respect the products that actually came out of that era, as well as the architects of that era. But you don't.Rated X wrote:The only thing I pledge allegiance to is a really awesome era during the 80's known as G1. As far as how to homage G1 best and who should do it, I’m in favor of a free for all.
Cobotron wrote:Hey! You seemed to have attracted a wild Megatronus. They're hard to find, but boy are they fun when you catch one!
Rated X wrote:Arctorro wrote:megatronus wrote:Motion to declare Rated X a KO, as he is a full-scale reproduction of a TF fan, but has no affiliation with Hasbro or Takara.Rated X wrote:"KO Alert".
Indeed!![]()
I second this motion!
Seeing how were all on the "Unofficial Transformers 3rd Party and Knock Offs Toys" forum section, all of you are just as guilty of not supporting Hasbro. Hasbro/Takara would like you guys to not even visit these forums and only acknowledge the existence of THEIR products. If you own one 3rd party product (even a measly Dr. Wu sword) you are supporting a cause that is flat out anti-Hasbro/Takara. So all of you 3rd party collectors who mock me for supporting KO's are a bunch of hypocrites. You don the "Hasbro Badge of Honor" proudly like a bunch of boy scouts, but then turn around and buy products from companies that flat out steal from the corporation you pledge allegiance to. The only thing I pledge allegiance to is a really awesome era during the 80's known as G1. As far as how to homage G1 best and who should do it, I’m in favor of a free for all.
Cobotron wrote:Hey! You seemed to have attracted a wild Megatronus. They're hard to find, but boy are they fun when you catch one!
JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Maybe tell them to stick with trusted and reputable dealers (like the site sponsors) if people wish to avoid them like the plague?
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