The Energon Pub

Well, I'll chime in this at least:

I'm probably one of the more lenient/forgiving mods here, perhaps too much so, but even I'm not in favor of bringing Goribus back.

Bun-Bun's anctics around the time of the whole shitstorm-that-was violated warnings posted by OS in the threads in which they transpried. AFAIK, that's why he received no warnings via PM; the public warnings were deemed sufficient. The fact that he didn't receive a dismissal e-mail was an oversight. Since his actions were provoked purely by a faultily communicated message, were somewhat out-of-character, and he was both sincerely apologetic and rational afterwards, his ban was only temporary.

Goribus however saw fit to carry a personal flame war onto other forums on this board, effectively flaming the administration and spamming at the same time. That followed a lengthy trend of aggressive behavior that probably should have been dealt with more strongly long ago. Then following his banning, he went on to another board and vowed, that if he was ever let back on Seibertron, he'd use the opportunity to take personal revenge on a list of specific individuals that included both posters and and moderators - I don't generally like to judge people on the basis of their behavior off-site, but we generally have to make an exception for threats and stalking behavior. Finally, he accosted at least one moderator "demanding" to be unbanned, without apology or rational justification.

I'm sorry if some of that info was supposed to be confidential, but Ryan said to answer questions, and that seems to be one of the biggest ones, and there really was no way to give an accurate answer while dancing around the ugly details.

I don't, you er got rid him...but it's one of the examples where mods aren't sticking to your guidlines,(though apparently he did post it in the mod forum so i though all of you would know about it) and that does kinda create a less than stella atmosphere. perhaps is mods weren't quite so independant, less judege,jury and executor, more 24 hour ban, discuss with the rest of the mods before handing out perma-bans, becuase you're right, they are human, and they do have bad days, but two or all them having a bad day on the same day is unlikely?

perhaps you could setup some kind of macro so that when some one is perma banned by someone it only last a certain amount time(a week), unless a second staff member validates the ban? perhaps that just too much work.

likewise i don't think unhiding the mod forums is a good idea, but perhaps a thread of the banned, and which rules they've broken to deserve their banning.

being able to say Fire-truck would be nice too...firetruck

Caelus wrote:Well, I'll chime in this at least:

I'm probably one of the more lenient/forgiving mods here, perhaps too much so, but even I'm not in favor of bringing Goribus back.

Bun-Bun's anctics around the time of the whole shitstorm-that-was violated warnings posted by OS in the threads in which they transpried. AFAIK, that's why he received no warnings via PM; the public warnings were deemed sufficient. The fact that he didn't receive a dismissal e-mail was an oversight. Since his actions were provoked purely by a faultily communicated message, were somewhat out-of-character, and he was both sincerely apologetic and rational afterwards, his ban was only temporary.

Goribus however saw fit to carry a personal flame war onto other forums on this board, effectively flaming the administration and spamming at the same time. That followed a lengthy trend of aggressive behavior that probably should have been dealt with more strongly long ago. Then following his banning, he went on to another board and vowed, that if he was ever let back on Seibertron, he'd use the opportunity to take personal revenge on a list of specific individuals that included both posters and and moderators - I don't generally like to judge people on the basis of their behavior off-site, but we generally have to make an exception for threats and stalking behavior. Finally, he accosted at least one moderator "demanding" to be unbanned, without apology or rational justification.

I'm sorry if some of that info was supposed to be confidential, but Ryan said to answer questions, and that seems to be one of the biggest ones, and there really was no way to give an accurate answer while dancing around the ugly details.

Thank you for sharing the details with everyone else, Caelus. I hope this will shed some light on the situation and help some of the members understand why we have stated that Goribus won't be unbanned. I also hope that some of the members here will understand that the staff of Seibertron.com has to do what they feel is in the community's best interests as well as our own, especially when someone speaks of taking "revenge" on members of the staff or the community.

Tammuz wrote:I don't, you er got rid him...but it's one of the examples where mods aren't sticking to your guidlines,(though apparently he did post it in the mod forum so i though all of you would know about it) and that does kinda create a less than stella atmosphere. perhaps is mods weren't quite so independant, less judege,jury and executor, more 24 hour ban, discuss with the rest of the mods before handing out perma-bans, becuase you're right, they are human, and they do have bad days, but two or all them having a bad day on the same day is unlikely?

Well, as Burn would be happy to point out if he were here, moderators can't ban anyone. Only Admins AFAIK.

Generally it works as:

Moderators = Jury
Admins = Judge/Executioner

Sometimes there's a gaff in that system, but in all fairness, it's pretty rare.

Anyway, if Moderators can execute bans, I don't know anything about it.

Firetruck
Cockpit

Caelus wrote:

Tammuz wrote:I don't, you er got rid him...but it's one of the examples where mods aren't sticking to your guidlines,(though apparently he did post it in the mod forum so i though all of you would know about it) and that does kinda create a less than stella atmosphere. perhaps is mods weren't quite so independant, less judege,jury and executor, more 24 hour ban, discuss with the rest of the mods before handing out perma-bans, becuase you're right, they are human, and they do have bad days, but two or all them having a bad day on the same day is unlikely?

Well, as Burn would be happy to point out if he were here, moderators can't ban anyone. Only Admins AFAIK.

Generally it works as:

Moderators = Jury
Admins = Judge/Executioner

Sometimes there's a gaff in that system, but in all fairness, it's pretty rare.

Anyway, if Moderators can execute bans, I don't know anything about it.

and what about the admins? what's stopping them from going ban happy, apart from personal judgment, which could be affected by a bad day.

see I think we need to have something a little like what cealus just did, so that rather than it being the big bad secretive mods, it's open and everyone knows and understands the actions of mods are for the greater good

and what of fire trucks!

Tammuz wrote:and what about the admins? what's stopping them from going ban happy, apart from personal judgment, which could be affected by a bad day.

There is no likelihood of the admins going ban happy (myself included despite what many of you think).

Seibertron wrote:Firetruck
Cockpit

Well, it was fun while it lasted




I can see why Goribus was banned now.
That sortta thing in a thread/ forum of it's own would be splendid. It'd certainly get rid of any miscommunication as far as I can think. Although I think a forum would be far easier to navigate.

My english is terrible tonight



OS
CB

I doubt either of these guys would have a sudden urge to become terminators, but I dunno about any other admins. As these are the only two I know of.

Omega Sentinel wrote:

Tammuz wrote:and what about the admins? what's stopping them from going ban happy, apart from personal judgment, which could be affected by a bad day.

There is no likelihood of the admins going ban happy (myself included despite what many of you think). Not going to argue that any further. I've stayed out of this thread because I'm just sick of the whole thing.

On that note, I think I'm the only one that's ever gone "ban happy" in the 7.5 year history of Seibertron.com. And when I did go "ban happy" it was a very justified situation that occurred most likely LONG before most of you were members on this site. There might be another time or two, but it's pretty rare with me.

I wouldn't allow the admins on this staff to continue being admins on this staff if they decided to go ban happy themselves. It's just not how we operate.

I think we're getting away from the original point of this conversation. We're not here to discuss how the moderators and admins operate on this website. We have a great collection of pretty stable staff members on this website. In the history of this site, I've never before received so few complaints about staff members so I know what they're doing is great, especially since the forums have never been busier than they've been throughout this year. The current staff has done an incredibly stellar job in my opinion.

Caelus wrote:Well, as Burn would be happy to point out if he were here, moderators can't ban anyone. Only Admins AFAIK.

Man, why you gotta be dragging me into this when i've only said that once or twice?

I'm sitting here all happy and peaceful like. Don't be giving me reason to bring up MY issues from the past and how i've been treated.

Seibertron wrote:The current staff has done an incredibly stellar job in my opinion.

I blame caelus



to pervert this thread even futher,being the situation now seems clear; could we fix the typo in the HMW forums link in the hmw sidebar, and maybe remove the philospher's forum links from the drop down menu, and the forums side bar?

EDIT: that typo's contagious!

Tammuz wrote:

Seibertron wrote:The current staff has done an incredibly stellar job in my opinion.

I blame caelus



to pervert this thread even futher,being the situation now seems clear; could we fix the typo in the HMW forums link in the hmw sidebar, and maybe remove the philospher's forum links from the drop down menu, and the forums side bar?

EDIT: that typo's contagious!

FIXED.

Thank you for clearing up the questions that were asked and for providing us this place to hang out.

Wow. It's been there for so long, and after all that, it's just gone in a second.











I kinda miss it now



I don't know what the mods etc were like in the old days, being my memory is pretty poor, but the crew of today do a dandy job indeed.

Always kept busy too, especially with threads like this http://www.seibertron.com/forums/viewto ... 24355&sid= being posted every half hour

Burn wrote:I'm sitting here all happy and peaceful like. Don't be giving me reason to bring up MY issues from the past and how i've been treated.

B.S., Burn does not sit! He waits!

Oh I sit alright, it's why my arse is so big.

My 2 cents on the whole issue.

I was busy with work during the whole fiasco, so I'm not privy to all the details, nor am I interested in learning them as I consider all that in the past now.

As I wasn't around for a lot of this, I defer the expertise to the staffers that were, namely Caelus and OS. I support Goribus not coming back not because of what was/wasn't done to him in the past, but what he could do in the future. He and I don't like one another, we've made that quite clear to one another, but I still try and treat him with the same due process that other members would get. I look at this case and think what would happen if he came back?

First there's the Goribus aspect. He may do well and behave for a while, but eventually chances are very high that he'd slip back to type and cause more problems. The other option is that his goal in this is "revenge pure and simple." Either way don't paint a pretty picture. That said he is charismatic and nice while your his friend, so it's not surprising that he has such an influence on some of the members here.

The other aspect of his return would be far more distasteful to me as a staff member. If he did return, we'd see more of this kind of behaviour from posters wanting their friends unbanned, thinking that somehow the posters en masse can change staff practises. Unlike the RDD, Seibertron.com isn't a democracy, it's privately owned which makes it more of a store or coffee shop than a country. The owners set the rules and those that can't/won't abide by them leave the premises.

On a more personal note, do I share in the bad blood that existed between the staff and the RDD, yes. Am I trying to change, yes. It is my hope that when things are fully underway here and v2 is in full swing that such tight bonds can be formed on this site in the faction/subfaction forums on this site, instead of off of it.

Seibertron wrote:

Tammuz wrote:

Seibertron wrote:The current staff has done an incredibly stellar job in my opinion.

I blame caelus



to pervert this thread even futher,being the situation now seems clear; could we fix the typo in the HMW forums link in the hmw sidebar, and maybe remove the philospher's forum links from the drop down menu, and the forums side bar?

EDIT: that typo's contagious!

FIXED.

Erm, you managed to kill the Powerlink chamber link when you fixed the typo.

Mkall wrote:First there's the Goribus aspect. He may do well and behave for a while, but eventually chances are very high that he'd slip back to type and cause more problems. The other option is that his goal in this is "revenge pure and simple." Either way don't paint a pretty picture. That said he is charismatic and nice while your his friend, so it's not surprising that he has such an influence on some of the members here.

The same could be said about me. Ryan banned me because I was being disruptive, people rallied behind me and he allowed me back. Sure, I may have continued to have been a little disruptive but I like to believe i've brought more positive to the game, and to the site, that outweighs the negative i've brought. (Despite what some may like to believe)

Of course I didn't make any declarations of revenge either.

Others have been given a chance in the past and I like to believe have redeemed themselves, so whose to say Goribus won't do the same?

Yeah yeah, no guarantee either way.

So really, does what he bring to Seibertron.com in the way of personality and making the site more enjoyable for others outweigh the occassional outburst towards Mods/Admins?

At the end of the day that's their decision, we just gotta accept that.

Or Caelus will empty-threaten to ban us.

I am gonna ask a question of pure curiosity. Can a banned member Read the forum? or does he/she simply get. Sorry, no can do.

Mkall wrote:Unlike the RDD, Seibertron.com isn't a democracy; it's privately owned which makes it more of a store or coffee shop than a country. The owners set the rules and those that can't/won't abide by them leave the premises.

I agree with this.
No matter how much I and others would like this to be a democracy at the end of the day what Ryan says goes.
We are simply voicing our displeasure about it... Sorry, probably a by-product of living in countries where we can speak out about things we feel are unfair (or at least we're told we can)

Mkall wrote: He may do well and behave for a while, but eventually chances are very high that he'd slip back to type and cause more problems.

I've been talking to him off and on for the past 3 months and I really do feel he is in a better place.
Being so recently off a ban I wouldn't be backing him like this if I wasn't sure he'd changed.
If he were unbanned and then screwed it up... well there's egg on my face... and several others.
Needless to say if he did this he would have a hard time finding support again.

Mkall wrote: The other option is that his goal in this is "revenge pure and simple."

I keep seeing it being brought up that he has 'sworn vengeance' on people here... what really could he do?

Besides, anything that he wrote like that was surely right after the ban. Hell if you look at some of the things I posted then you may not have let me back in either.
We were both upset and hurt that we were thrown out like that.
The way we saw it the board rules about warnings/bannings were not followed. This was not helped by the lack of communication of the staff to people inquiring on our behalf.

That is why I suggested the Ban forum... to help prevent these lingering questions.

I'm not saying that the Mod forum on disciplinary actions should be made public... the staff should have a private place to discuss these things... but a separate forum simply listing the incident(s) that the offending part is being banned for, any and all warnings they received, and the terms of their punishment.
A 'ruling decision' comment by the staff member(s) would be nice but really optional I think.

I am gonna ask a question of pure curiosity. Can a banned member Read the forum? or does he/she simply get. Sorry, no can do.

When I was out I could still read anything that I didn't have to be logged in to see, just like any other visitor to the site.

Mkall wrote:Unlike the RDD, Seibertron.com isn't a democracy; it's privately owned which makes it more of a store or coffee shop than a country. The owners set the rules and those that can't/won't abide by them leave the premises.

This is true...

However, has anyone thought that this can(and yes does sometimes) cause the very problems? We're all human and we all make bad calls. Even store or coffee shop owners understand that an unruly customer/patron has off days. They don't perma-ban someone from their place. They do ban people, but for periods of time. They have to give the person cooling off time, and a second chance. If they don't they end up driving other people away from the news of banning someone forever.

Yes this is a privately owned site where Ryan and his staff could do whatever they pleased without our say/input. They have that power. They don't because in the end, they want people to come here and enjoy what the site has.

Taking someone's statements from the heat of an argument isn't the best course of action. Think about this on a personal level. We've all said and done things in that type of state that we later regret and wish we could take back. They have been said and no they can't be undone either. All we'd like to see is people given a second chance, if they sincerely ask for it. Each one of us has the ability to change. If there is a repeated pattern of issues, thats something else.


just my two cents

In regards to Caelus' concerns.

Who has never made idle threats when they've been upset? How many times has someone said something along the lines of "I hate my job and I want it to...." Fill in the blank.
Have you never flown off the handle and done something, said something that you truly regret?

The bottom line is that the internet is not a blood feud. People need to realize that. And that's ALL parties involved! I truly think that we are doing a disservice to someone that has a lot to offer to the game and the community as a whole.

I've spoken with Goribus a few times and he's received a lot of static about this from some of the "fellow posters" here on the site--off site. And while the Mods cannot police off site activities, their stance of a permanent ban has only increased the verbal slams and attacks that he's received. I've witnessed these acts, and that's not fair to anyone regardless of past actions. I've had discussions with Goribus in regards to his threats, and he's responded to me with the intention of proving your fears wrong should he be reinstated.

I think that reconsidering the entireity of the situation and possibly giving him another chance isn't beyond human comprehension. I mean, if you give him another chance and he does foul up--even in the slightest, yall can do what you always do--pull the plug and the perma-ban can be the end of it.

Word.

Idle threats are when you shout at the computer monitor, or gripe to someone over IM. When you announce something on a public forum, it's because you want the people you're threatening to read it.

At that point, it isn't idle anymore, it's sincere (impotent possibly, but sincere) and AFAIK, Sebertron.com has a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to posters actually threatening eachother.

Have you never flown off the handle and done something, said something that you truly regret?

Sure (I actually have a really nasty temper), but everytime I've paid the price that comes with it, in proportion to what I did. The price for publicly threatening someone else online is permabanning. That's the price Goribus is paying.


For those that would like to know exactly what we're talking about, I figure I might as well repost this since it was said in public to begin with:

Goribus wrote:As far as me coming back. It won't happen, but assuming that I don't have to dishonor myself to get unbanned, I still won't come back. I have a million reasons not too. And only 8 to come back. All 8 are people I hate and have a grudge of some sort against. So my only real reason for coming back is revenge pure and simple. And I won't sugar coat it, I'd be coming back for myself and only myself.

I'll admit that I'm slightly bias, in that the 4 nonstaff members he mentions by name afterward are friends of mine (or at least, people who don't think I'm the spawn of satan), but the fact remains - there is a point of no return and Goribus crossed it.

Additionally, I think that was posted a good while after he was initially banned, so it wasn't really a 'heat of the moment' type of thing, especially since the expected cool down period for an angry poster is supposed to be 3 days.

We hypothetically could let him back in on a 1-strike-and-your-out condition, but it would violate our established protocol (which we've had far too much of already), set a bad precedent for the stalkers and trollers we have to deal with, and mean that the staff gets to clean up whatever mess he creates.

You can say that he's promised to be good and prove us wrong about him, that he's promised to change or that he has changed, but he's also promised "revenge", and I don't see any reason to believe that his recent epiphany is anymore than an attempt to facilitate his previously stated goal. I certainly don't see any reason to believe his latest promises over his previous promise.

I think the staff would pretty much agree with me when I say:

1) We made a lot of mistakes in the whole clan-transfer thing.

2) Banning Goribus wasn't one of them.

Kalon wrote:However, has anyone thought that this can(and yes does sometimes) cause the very problems? We're all human and we all make bad calls. Even store or coffee shop owners understand that an unruly customer/patron has off days. They don't perma-ban someone from their place. They do ban people, but for periods of time. They have to give the person cooling off time, and a second chance. If they don't they end up driving other people away from the news of banning someone forever.

I run a store. There is a huge difference between someone being told to leave and someone being placed on "Trespassing Notice" as it's called here in South Carolina. If someone threatens myself or one of my employees, the police are then ivolved and the idividual is placed on trespassing notice. The term of a trespassing notice in South Carolina is...the rest of your natural life. One in place, they can't be removed.

There is a huge difference between someone having a bad day and someone threatening an employee. That kind of behavior cannot be tolerated. If a couple of his buddies stop shopping at the store, so be it. The unruly customer drives away more business than he brings with his friends.

Customers don't want to shop in a store they allow that sort of behavior in. It's just good business sense. Besides which, if you care anything about your employees you protect them. Why in heck would any manager worth his salt allow their employees to be threatened? A: One who won't be in management long.