The Energon Pub

Flare wrote:

No Death for Prowl wrote:The concept of "Autobots" that I'm familiar with is generally peace-loving, compassionate beings who, despite not being warriors, have taken up arms against the Decepticons to protect life and freedom not for just themselves, but all beings.

There is something noble and heroic about beings who decide to fight even when their natural inclination and desire is not to do so.

I think this was truly put on display in the '86 movie when the Autobots were truly overpowered by the natural warrior nature of the 'Cons and many ended up sacrificing themselves despite the odds being against them from the start.

Thats very true, even Huffer said to Prime along time ago; "But we're not fighters like they are Prime!" (ep. 2 More than Meets the Eye part.2) Autobots were not created to be warriors like the Decepticons.

It was also this cse in the Beast Era. In "Beast Wars, Part 1" Rattrap's all complaining, "Oh man! This is ridiculous! We're an exploration ship, not a battle cruiser!" and then in the Beast Machines episode "Sparkwar, Part I: The Strike", Cheetor remarked, "We were all scientists, till we got dragged into the Beast Wars."

T-Macksimus wrote:Why/how would Jetfires empty shell have any influence over Primes action? The whole spark core was removed entirely. At that point it would have been just a suit of armor for all intents and purposes. No spirit what with the spark basically lying on the ground. and I think the reason Prime shrugged the armor off rather uncermoniusly was because it was damaged, already missing sections entirely and was no longer really representative of Jetfire anyway. Just one persons opinion. I'm not ignoring the respect issue at all, just saying that in war, ceremony is sometimes left behind especially when someone is 'coming down' from an intense experience. You don't always think for the first little bit you just 'do'. Primes first instinct was probably to check on the well-being of his and Lennoxs combined forces and see to their needs, being the noble and self-less leader that he is.

Well don't you think it's strange that Prime who could barely fight Megatron alone in the first movie, suddenly has some greater power to beat the snot out of Megatron, Starscream and massacre the Fallen in a few minutes? It couldn't be just an added Jetpack that did it. Common, think about it? Before Jetfire pulled out his own Spark he told Prime that he would become more powerful. Now we don't see Prime taking Jetfire's spark directly into his chest to merge with his own, but Jolt and Ratchet add the connectors to give Prime a jump start transferring Jetfire's energy or his own Sparks complete energy force that also includes all of the personality and Decepticon life force.

A Transformer is just machine parts without his spark. But the spark is not just a glass ball containing electricity. Something is giving each Transformer his own characteristics and nature be it good or evil. And with that transfer of Jetfire's pure life force also goes his abilities maybe ruthless Decepticon nature and even added strength as Prime displayed. It wasn't just armor and a jet pack Prime took onto himself. Prime may have lasting repercussions as a result of merging with an old Seeker in the future. But who knows how TF3 will be written.

A Decepticon's natural goal is to achieve "total domination" and just because Jetfire says he's switched affiliations doesn't mean he can ever change completely even without realizing it. So if Jetfire does have a spirit/ghost/demon (i.e. : Starscream in G1/G2/Beast Wars had a ghost)by nature he would try and overpower Prime's "good" nature now that they are merged. On a side note; Starscream did possess Waspinator in Beast Wars, so it is possible to take over another in the Transformers multiverse. Starscream said it was his Spark that goes on existing wandering the universe looking for a new body. But even his spark is no longer a physical thing. The Spark goes on existing outside of any containment.

Primus's will be done on Earth as it is in the Galaxy...

That's idfferent, though. G1 Starscream had an immortal spark. His was different from others.

Besides, the Decepticons in the movie are very different from the Decepticons of other series. They were never originally Decepticons to begin with. Both the Autobots and Decepticons in the movies belonged to a single race at first. The Decepticons are just the ones who Megatron rallied together to become evil. Basically, the group known as the Decepticons in the movies are like a cult. They weren't evil by nature, but by persuasion from Megatron and The Fallen. Meaning Jetfire wasn't evil at first either.

Sabrblade wrote:That's idfferent, though. G1 Starscream had an immortal spark. His was different from others.

Besides, the Decepticons in the movie are very different from the Decepticons of other series. They were never originally Decepticons to begin with. Both the Autobots and Decepticons in the movies belonged to a single race at first. The Decepticons are just the ones who Megatron rallied together to become evil. Basically, the group known as the Decepticons in the movies are like a cult. They weren't evil by nature, but by persuasion from Megatron and The Fallen. Meaning Jetfire wasn't evil at first either.

Who said you had to be evil to be acting supernaturally? What about the Primes who appeared spiritually to Sam and revived him and re-created the Matrix? If it was all a dream to Sam, who recreated the Matrix of Leadership? This all happened in ROTF not just G1 or Beast Wars. And Starscream is no different then any other Transformer. If he goes on so can all the rest. It's just the wicked that are given the attributes of appearing ghostly and unrested. I'm just suggesting that Transformers even in the comics have always revolved around a spiritual aspect to the storylines. The whole scenario of the fight between Good and Evil might as well be an epic of Transformers canon law. Primus being their God and Unicron being their Devil. In these movies they tried to make The Fallen the devil but he just seems to be a bad Prime who hadn't been snuffed out. Anyhow..

Flare wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:That's idfferent, though. G1 Starscream had an immortal spark. His was different from others.

Besides, the Decepticons in the movie are very different from the Decepticons of other series. They were never originally Decepticons to begin with. Both the Autobots and Decepticons in the movies belonged to a single race at first. The Decepticons are just the ones who Megatron rallied together to become evil. Basically, the group known as the Decepticons in the movies are like a cult. They weren't evil by nature, but by persuasion from Megatron and The Fallen. Meaning Jetfire wasn't evil at first either.

Who said you had to be evil to be acting supernaturally? What about the Primes who appeared spiritually to Sam and revived him and re-created the Matrix? If it was all a dream to Sam, who recreated the Matrix of Leadership? This all happened in ROTF not just G1 or Beast Wars. And Starscream is no different then any other Transformer. If he goes on so can all the rest. It's just the wicked that are given the attributes of appearing ghostly and unrested. I'm just suggesting that Transformers even in the comics have always revolved around a spiritual aspect to the storylines. The whole scenario of the fight between Good and Evil might as well be an epic of Transformers canon law. Primus being their God and Unicron being their Devil. In these movies they tried to make The Fallen the devil but he just seems to be a bad Prime who hadn't been snuffed out. Anyhow..

No, G1 Starscream became a ghost and could possess other bots because he had a "mutant" immortal spark. And it was because his spark was unique that led to the experimental birth of Protoform X (BW Rampage) whose spark was created in a scientific attempt to replicate the immortality of Starscream's abnormally indestructible spark. The spark of G1 Starscream is anything but normal.

As for the second thread

"They're supposed to have been at war for hundreds of years"

It's Millions of years. Its a basically inconcievable time to the human mind. Optimus Prime is supposed to have been fighting Megatron ( Or Straxxus? ) since the earth was inhabited by monkeys and giant reptiles. Optimus was fighting Decepticons on the day that a chimp pondered upon whether or not it was a good idea to walk upright so he could do things with his hands while moving instead of walking on all fours. lol

I wasn't surprised that the Autobots in the movie wanted to end the Decepticons totally. I expect no less because they ARE at war. It is just incredibly hard to actually kill them apparently!

I WAS a bit surprised at Optimus firing at Demolisher though. I would have expected him to stand back and say 'Now you will feel what you have strived to bring to others' and shoot him in the chest ( if he has one? ) though rather than shoot him in the face. Plus, the ripping faces / heads in half thing with Blackout and the Fallen is more of a Decepticon/Megatron type of killing than an Autobot way.

BUT, Having said that I can see that in the movie we are intended to think that the Autobots are so desperate and weary of the endless fight that their brutality has reached a stage where they have no time for pleasantries, and to be honest this is kind of the type of attitude I would expect of a multi million dollar film.

Try to see it for what it is, as well as trying to fit it with our pre-concieved view of what an Autobot or Decepticon would be like. I agree with your point in theory but I can understand why the character have been portrayed the way they have.

As for Optimus's comment about Mercy in the '86 film - I don't see it as the same sentiment. Optimus is intending to deliver the final moments of Megatrons existence in this movie and he isn't being brutal in my opinion. I feel he is trying for once final moment to bring some regret into Megatron so that he will face death knowing it is no more or less than he deserves for the death and suffering he wants to bring to others, whereas in the '09 Movie I feel he is expressing satisfaction that he is the one to deal the last blow. I think the two are very different indeed.

Thats my input anyway - sorry about the length!

doomseer wrote:It's Millions of years. Its a basically inconcievable time to the human mind. Optimus Prime is supposed to have been fighting Megatron ( Or Straxxus? ) since the earth was inhabited by monkeys and giant reptiles. Optimus was fighting Decepticons on the day that a chimp pondered upon whether or not it was a good idea to walk upright so he could do things with his hands while moving instead of walking on all fours. lol

There is no movie Decepticon named "Straxus". There is, however, a ship named "The Straxus", but it's nothing more than a ship. An Autobot ship.

doomseer wrote:Plus, the ripping faces / heads in half thing with Blackout and the Fallen is more of a Decepticon/Megatron type of killing than an Autobot way.

That wasn't Blackout, that was Grindor.

Sabrblade wrote:That wasn't Blackout, that was Grindor.

While I know it was Grindor, I'm still going to call him Blackout. It's an easier explanation that they revived him off screen (And also removed the "5/6 bogeys" error) than saying "It's just a character who looks exactly the same except for minor differences in his alt-mode that most people wouldn't notice."

Shadowman wrote:
While I know it was Grindor, I'm still going to call him Blackout. It's an easier explanation that they revived him off screen (And also removed the "5/6 bogeys" error) than saying "It's just a character who looks exactly the same except for minor differences in his alt-mode that most people wouldn't notice."

THANK YOU. That's what I'm sayin', yo.

It makes absolutely zero sense to have a grey-repaint Blackout and call him something else, when anyone who has followed the Bayverse knows that Blackout has quite a little fan following. And that collectors would go for a repaint of a beloved character before a new (and not very well rounded) character.

Considering Megatron and Starscream have both been tweaked from their first movie appearances, I would have less of a problem believing that in the course of digging up Blackout and bringing him back online, he had a few alt mode mods in the process, than believing that somehow, in all the protoform-drone wash, somehow Blackout's light skinned twin brother just happened to show up.

(Nota Bene: this might have been covered in the Foster novelization, but after the *dreck* that was GOY, I didn't waste my time or money reading it. I will count on y'all to correct me. GENTLY).

HK, he's got such a pretty face...okay, *Had*....

hellkitty wrote:It makes absolutely zero sense to have a grey-repaint Blackout and call him something else, when anyone who has followed the Bayverse knows that Blackout has quite a little fan following. And that collectors would go for a repaint of a beloved character before a new (and not very well rounded) character.

To the point where his brief appearance in Animated made him the only character in the show to be based entirely off of his movie counterpart. (Opposed to most other characters who did a mix-n-match of various series)

Shadowman wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:That wasn't Blackout, that was Grindor.

While I know it was Grindor, I'm still going to call him Blackout. It's an easier explanation that they revived him off screen (And also removed the "5/6 bogeys" error) than saying "It's just a character who looks exactly the same except for minor differences in his alt-mode that most people wouldn't notice."

I agree, it looks like a Blackout and quacks like a Blackout I'm calling it a Blackout

Flare wrote: Well don't you think it's strange that Prime who could barely fight Megatron alone in the first movie, suddenly has some greater power to beat the snot out of Megatron, Starscream and massacre the Fallen in a few minutes?

Prime and the rest of the autobots being week were a big complaint about the first movie. Bay and company responded by giving Prime the ass kicking bot people asked for.





...And people are still bitching!!

5150 Cruiser wrote:...And people are still bitching!!

And they always will...

Siren Prime wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:...And people are still bitching!!

And they always will...

And thats the real sad part...

Siren Prime wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:...And people are still bitching!!

And they always will...

Cause one universal truth....NERDS ARE THE WORST FANS!!!

Lastjustice wrote:

Siren Prime wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:...And people are still bitching!!

And they always will...

Cause one universal truth....NERDS ARE THE WORST FANS!!!

In a way, we're all a little like Sheldon Cooper.

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Siren Prime wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:...And people are still bitching!!

And they always will...

And thats the real sad part...

If someone is bitchin' and noone hears it, is that someone actually bitchin'? sorry, had to say that.

I agree. They always will.....

zwann wrote:

Lastjustice wrote:

Yeah, war is war with these guys. But even with the 1986 movie Prime had Megatron 'dead to rites' and could have ended everything. One shot to the head and Done but he didn't. RotF he was presented with the same scenario, a fallen and unarmed opponent and Prime took the shot.

well I dont happen recall Demolisher begging for mercy when prime said any last words. He basically was like Screw you Prime, the fallen will come kick your aft. Then Prime shot him. He had a chance to speak, and all he could say was a threat. (which if Demolisher kept his mouth shut there'd been no warning.) I mean what were they supposed to do with him? He killed a bunch of soldiers with no remorse, and asked for no quarter. Death was the only good solution.

Imagine you guys were in a war. Just because of your ethnic and race, you were hunt down like a dog. You have an AK47 in your hands, and in front of you are soldiers that seek nothing but your demise. Won't you kill of of them for your survival?

As far as begging go...when civilians were killed back in war, and one of their relatives were pointed a gun...if it were you, would you go "Please, have mercy...!!" or "You bastard!! You will all die!!"

OK...I seriously think people LARGELY misunderstood what this topic is all about. It's not about Autobots killing their enemies. It is HOW they killed them.

You can't win a war without casualties. But you can win a war without skinning your enemies alive.

Wait wait wait. Hunted down for your race? No the Decepticons were not even on their own planet. They were invaders to begin with on earth. They are hunted down because they kill hundreds if they arnt. Hell Demolisher had a pretty good death tole going as is. So That point is rather inappropriate as the Decepticons chose to be hostile invaders. They arnt defending their family.

Prime shooting Demolisher made more sense to me than repeating the multiple captures and escapes that have happened in the movieverse.

Prime in the forest had no reason to hold back brutality. Hell he was fighting three and one was twice his size.

Ravage was basically a trained cat as far as I could see him in this film. (Him not talking probably helped this)

I actually liked G1 in this way more than the movie, and I mean that in G1 hardly anyone died so you could really get to know the characters. In the movies I couldnt find a favorite character because they died every scene. Hopefully in the next movie less Decepticons die and more Autobots do. That way all the Decepticon deaths in this movie will be balanced out. Maybe.

On my last post I mentioned nothing of the actual topic. I suppose I should this time. I think the Decepticons should have had some brutal kills, such as ripping someones head in half or ripping their spine out. The Autobots shouldnt have had such brutal kills. It just didnt fit and made me like the movie a little less.

What a difference a few years makes...

Transformers Movie (2007):

Ironhide: "Why should we help the humans? They are a cruel and primitive race..."

Optimus Prime: "Were we so different?"

Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (2009):

Optimus Prime: "GIVE ME YOUR FACE!!!!"

Skowl wrote:What a difference a few years makes...

Transformers Movie (2007):

Ironhide: "Why should we help the humans? They are a cruel and primitive race..."

Optimus Prime: "Were we so different?"

Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (2009):

Optimus Prime: "GIVE ME YOUR FACE!!!!"

We are moving the right direction, IMO.

Sidewaysx79 wrote:I actually liked G1 in this way more than the movie, and I mean that in G1 hardly anyone died so you could really get to know the characters. In the movies I couldnt find a favorite character because they died every scene. Hopefully in the next movie less Decepticons die and more Autobots do. That way all the Decepticon deaths in this movie will be balanced out. Maybe.

Only characters in G1 to die before the movie was Alpha Trion. Which for all supposed murderous intent the decepticons had, they never killed a single autobot on screen prior to the movie. Which same could be said of most series of Transformers as the death tolls are lower cause status quo usually maintains for series till end of seasons. Overall they had more time dedicate to an individual character, so its not even fair compare a TV series to a movie series in that regard.

Honestly how many decepticons really were that rememberable besides Soundwave, Starscream and megatron? Its clearly why they had such a hard time deciding which ones would appear in the first film. Most only appeared a couple times. Combiner teams appeared more times, but they usually just formed their super warriors outside their intial appearances.

Skywarp and Thundercracker both appeared alot, but they had very lil characterization. Astrotrain probably had more characterization than they did. Just Im guessing with the while scale being kept more accurate his triple changer status makes him a nightmare to create in a live action film. Otherwise hes probably made more appears and considered a core member since he would taxi the cons around way Jetfire, skylynx and Omega supreme did for the autobots. Honestly they need introduce a Taxi character so the non flyer cons might live to fight another day hehe. Otherwise how are decepticons supposed to escape from the autobots if they dont fly?